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Prelim Hearing-4/1/11 Discussion Thread-All discussion here

  • Thread starter elusive moonwalker
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mthalen said:
What does the prosecution have to prove if it goes to trial?
That Murray acted recklessly by giving MJ propofol at his house, or that Murray caused MJ to die because of his actions?

If they only need to prove using propofol it should be relatively easy. If they have to prove propofol caused MJ to die and Murray gave MJ the propofol, I could be harder, as the defense will claim that MJ could've given himself an extra dose --> reasonable doubt.
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i believe so. they have to prove that he acted recklessly. they also have to have bacround info to support the evidence that they have against muarry
 
More info about Michael Amir's testimony

Michael Jackson’s personal assistant, Michael Amir Williams, is the second person to take the stand in the preliminary hearing of Dr. Conrad Murray, Jackson’s personal physician.

Williams testified, on the night Jackson died he got an urgent call from Murray saying ” Jackson had a bad reaction, a bad reaction, get here right away.” But he said, Murray did not ask him to call 911

Williams said he arrived at the house when the ambulance was already there and helped put the children in a car to follow the ambulance. He said the scene at the hospital was chaotic and he was in the room when the Jackson kids were told their father had died. Williams said Dr. Murray then approached him and said” Mr. Jackson has some cream in his room that I know he wouldn’t want the world to know about it, can you drive me back to the house to get it? Williams told Murray he didn’t have a key to the house when in fact he did. He says he called the house and ordered that it be put on lock down and not to let anyone in.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/01/michael-jacksons-personal-assistant-stand
 
MJ's not BREATHING and Murray waits 20 minutes before calling 911 and DOESN'T intubate MJ as soon as he notices he's not breathing?!!!! If that ALONE isn't reckless and showing he had NO IDEA of what he was doing and was putting MJ's life in danger...then I don't know what is!!!!!!!!! It is absolutely DISGUSTING!!!! There is NO WAY the jury can find Murray anything other than GUILTY. NO WAY. Not when you look at the medical evidence!!!!!!!! I can't wait to hear what Murray will try to say in his defence. Even I could tear him apart just by being a RN....all you gotta do is to go down the list: 1. Did you do this? No?...2. Did you do this? No...3. Did you have this equipment? No.....4. So when you noticed he wasn't breathing...did you do this? No....5. And CPR on a BED with ONE hand?...."I panicked"...Oh, so what was your plan B going to be then when you decided to give him PROPOFOL and if he would have STOPPED BREATHING???!! :doh: Who was going to be there then to take care of MJ in case of an emergency?? Were you AWARE when giving MJ Propofol that there CAN be an emergecy???!!! No? Should you have been giving your patient a drug you were not familiar with? Exactly...NO!!! *case closed*

Murray is so doomed, believe me. There is NO WAY he can get anything other than a GUILTY verdict. And yes, everyone is "innocent until proven guilty", but all you gota do is to look at the MEDICAL evidence....there isn't ONE thing he did correctly!!
 
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Soundmind said:
Ok, it seems the defense is going to use all the family supporters to impeach the prosecution witnesses. Ortega told investigators they sent MJ to get some rest and Murray was against that, was telling them he was fine. Maybe that's what he told MJ after he called Lee.
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To me it just shows how murray didn't seem to care about Michael.
He cared about the money. :(
 
zpredra5 said:
I have read every single post in here.
It will be messy. Not to mention the trial when it gets to it.
I believe we will hear a lot of stuff we never wanted to hear. God forbid some evidence or photographs. As I see it..Kenny changed his tune. He was always saying Michael was super-fine. This is the first time I hear him say Michael was not himself.
Kenny also said before that Michael"s death was TOTALY UNNECESSARY. What did he mean by that...I don"t know till this day.

Oh, Michael......:( :( :(

This really is a nightmare. And it has barely started.
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he had to change his tune under oath, if he lied he could go to jail. sooo much is gonna come out its gonna be crazy
 
AnnieRUOkay89 said:
Michael made it known to the world during the Oprah interview that he had vitiligo. It had become a known thing, when in regards to Michael Jackson, so therefore, how would it make sense that Murray went back for the cream, because Michael "didn't want the world to know", when he already made it known himself, in '93?

Sorry, but you can't just bend facts, and the testimony of the artist themselves to benefit this conspiracy theory of yours.
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Michael made known in '93 about his vitiligo, not about a cream he uses to even it up, because he knew that in the media will turn up to a "bleaching" cream story. And it is a big deal. If Murray wanted to get back to that house to hide propofol it is one thing, but if he wanted to hide that cream as he said, he is just stupid.
 
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I have NO doubt;

"Mr.Michael Jackson was happy, in great spirits, willing, and able to do the "This Is It" concerts...he was very focused on his career, excited about being back on stage..."He loved/cherished life, his children, and family way too much..! He "would not" & "did not" kill himself..!"

"The Journal of Reflection & Thoughts...Truth Of Justice...Nothing IS Black Or White (Proceeds will be donated to two prearranged mutually agreed upon charities) (c) 1995 -2010 "

Peace, Happiness, L.O.V.E

God Bless Always :angel:~~~

:rollingpeace::rollingpeace:
 
ivy;3173007 said:
More info about Michael Amir's testimony

Michael Jackson’s personal assistant, Michael Amir Williams, is the second person to take the stand in the preliminary hearing of Dr. Conrad Murray, Jackson’s personal physician.

Williams testified, on the night Jackson died he got an urgent call from Murray saying ” Jackson had a bad reaction, a bad reaction, get here right away.” But he said, Murray did not ask him to call 911

Williams said he arrived at the house when the ambulance was already there and helped put the children in a car to follow the ambulance. He said the scene at the hospital was chaotic and he was in the room when the Jackson kids were told their father had died. Williams said Dr. Murray then approached him and said” Mr. Jackson has some cream in his room that I know he wouldn’t want the world to know about it, can you drive me back to the house to get it? Williams told Murray he didn’t have a key to the house when in fact he did. He says he called the house and ordered that it be put on lock down and not to let anyone in.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/01/michael-jacksons-personal-assistant-stand
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so i guess the last part throws out the theory that muarry RETURNED TO THE HOUSE AFTER HE LEFT the HOSPITAL TO HIDE EVIDENCE.
smart move on amirs behalf because muarry could have went back and hid everyting and then the only evidence would have been the autopsy report
 
what does it mather if we now he used the cream or not and katherine also said he did something to fix it (who wouldnt) i would...

so bleach or not, why thing of his so could legacy in murrays though in state of crape i killed michael what to do.. :S
 
More info about Kenny Ortega's and Michael Amir's testimony

The first witnesses to testify in Tuesday’s preliminary hearing for Michael Jackson's physician described a run-in with Dr. Conrad Murray six days before the pop star's death on June 25, 2009.

Renowned choreographer Kenny Ortega was the first to take the stand and said the singer showed up at a rehearsal at Staples Center seeming “lost” and too weak to perform.

“It was scary. I didn’t know what was wrong, but I knew there was something going on,” Ortega recalled.

The next day, he said, he was summoned to a meeting at Jackson’s mansion with the singer, his manager, the concert promoter and Murray.

He said the doctor insisted Jackson was emotionally and physically strong enough to perform and scolded Ortega for sending Jackson home -- something he said he hadn’t done.

“Dr. Murray told me that this was not my responsibility and asked me to not act like a doctor or psychologist ... and leave Michael’s health to him,” he said.

Ortega said that earlier in June, there was a week during which Jackson was “sort of missing” from rehearsals without explanation, a situation he said “created anxiety for me.”

But in two rehearsals preceding Jackson’s death, the singer appeared to have turned a corner.

“It was like the Michael we all knew and loved,” he said.

The judge also heard from Jackson’s personal assistant, the first person Murray called after discovering Jackson had stopped breathing.

Michael Amir Williams said Murray left a “frantic” message saying Jackson “had a bad reaction” and urging him to come to the house. At the hospital, Murray went with Williams and Jackson’s manager to inform the singer’s children their father was dead.

His voice faltered as he recalled how the children, still thinking their father was alive, began listing his allergies for the doctors.

“It was horrible,” he said.

Shortly thereafter, Murray took him aside with a strange request, Williams said in his testimony.

“He said, ‘Brother Michael, Mr. Jackson has some cream in the house that I knew he wouldn’t want the world to know about,’” Williams said. “It was an odd question, to ask to go to the house to get the cream.”

The doctor asked for a ride back to the mansion, but Williams said he and other security guards demurred.

Subsequently, Murray said he was going to get something to eat and left the hospital. In his cross-examination, Murray’s attorney, Ed Chernoff, questioned Williams about his connection to the Nation of Islam and about other phone calls he made in the minutes after Murray’s call.

He also asked the personal assistant how frequently he went upstairs to Jackson’s bedroom, and whether his fingerprints may be found on vials, intravenous bags or syringes.

“I don’t know how that’s possible, I never touched any of that,” Williams said.


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...n-too-weak-to-perform-just-before-death-.html
 
ivy;3173007 said:
Williams said Dr. Murray then approached him and said” Mr. Jackson has some cream in his room that I know he wouldn’t want the world to know about it, can you drive me back to the house to get it? Williams told Murray he didn’t have a key to the house when in fact he did. He says he called the house and ordered that it be put on lock down and not to let anyone in.
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I applaud Mr. Williams QUICK thinking.

He "probably" knew that Murray was TRYING to pull a fast one and wanted no part of it. Good for him!
 
ivy;3173025 said:
His voice faltered as he recalled how the children, still thinking their father was alive, began listing his allergies for the doctors.

“It was horrible,” he said.
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sad so sad :(
 
JMie said:
don't speak for most fans. Michael told people about vitiligo in 1993, those who took the time to do the research knew about the vitiligo treatment. using this cream is normal for vitiligo patients.
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I'm not talking about vitiligo, I'm talking about the treatment.
 
Let's not assume the majority knew about vitiligo. We know very well most did not believe MJ. Some still don't believe even with the autopsy report saying that he had it. Also, MJ said for a long time that he did not bleach his skin. We know he used the bleach as a way to even out his skin. Many viewed it as him just not wanting to be black. Even when it was reported that it was found in his house, media outlets made sure to emphasize this as if to say that MJ was bleaching his skin as a way to change his color for reasons of self hate. So let's not pretend that it does not matter.

But besides this, let's get back to the actually testimony for today. Let's just get over the cream issue. Please. :flowers:
 
zpredra5 said:
. . . As I see it..Kenny changed his tune. He was always saying Michael was super-fine. This is the first time I hear him say Michael was not himself.
Kenny also said before that Michael"s death was TOTALY UNNECESSARY. What did he mean by that...I don"t know till this day.

Oh, Michael......:( :( :(

This really is a nightmare. And it has barely started.
Click to expand...

Ortega was testifying about a specific day, so we can't use this to say that Michael was continuously sick or appearing ill. Also, if I was anywhere near that production as Ortega was, there is no way I would have been telling anyone how Michael appeared except to discuss it with Michael or anyone that I thought could help. At the time, that was Michael's business and not the fans' or media's.
 
Asedora said:
Michael made known in '93 about his vitiligo, not about a cream he uses to even it up.
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What? He said in the same interview that he does treatment to keep from having his skin look the way it would, should he opted not to have treatment done. There's only a few ways that such treatment can be done, so what difference does it make if he never mentioned the kind of cream he may have used?


The point is, it was already known, he himself made these statements, so it doesn't make sense that Murray would go back to the house and hide the cream, because he didn't want the world to know. When Michael himself had already made it known. The cream was just an excuse for him to go back to the house, and cover up his tracks. If he had said to a security guard, after the fact that Michael was gone, "I have to go back and hide the rest of the bags of propofol", he'd be immediately reported to the authorities.
 
Asedora said:
Michael made known in '93 about his vitiligo, not about a cream he uses to even it up, because he knew that in the media will turn up to "bleaching" cream.
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Asedora Your posts that are focusing on the V-cream are confusing
me _ Im not sure what you are trying to PROVE. You seem to be
defending Murrays actions. saying he was worried about MJ and
the cream.

Myself I belive Murray said he wanted to get the cream as an excuse
to get back in the house _ to collect evidence to save his own ass

I have some questions ?? for you to clarify what you mean

So is it your theory that the DR didnt want to go back to the house to hide
evidence of the propoful, That he only wanted to go back because he was so
worried about MJs reputation over the cream. ??

So You think the Dr didnt want to go back to cover his (crime) actions.
he only wanted to hide vitiligo cream ?? That is what your posts are implying
That Dr Murray had nothing to hide at the house. You think he was only
concernded about MJs reputation over some cream.

Please state why you thing DR Murray wanted to go back to the
house and what do YOU think he wanted to collect and why ??
 
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gerryevans said:
I'm no Karen fan, but you tend to remember if you've been yelled at, and the person doing the yelling might not even think that's what they did.

The discrepancy could be in what their exchange was actually about. If Ortega is denying talking to her specifically about MJ's health, maybe it wasn't a health issue she got reamed about to his recollection, but something else, and all she remembers is she getting reamed. I certainly believe they had some kind of exchanges.
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I believe that they had exchanges Because jeeze remember karens facebook? Rememeber before any of us had even seen a trailer of "This Is It"..? Karen wrote how wait till you see the film... you'll see who is in the film and who isn't." I'm para pharsing of course, but Why is Karen tweeting about this... How come she isn't testifying? Does anyone know if she will be?

On another note - I was thinking that...
If this goes to trial (I need to catch-up on the thread)which it should. They should have Murray re enact certain situations that took place 06.25.09 to see if he shows any emotion and things of that nature. re enactment could show a lot, don't you think?

:wub:
souldreamer7
 
I think Asedora is saying both options are viable that we shouldn't just assume one over the other.

But I'll let her speak.
 
This is just awful reading again about Murray's catalogue of negligent and suspicious acts.

marebear said:
It's about Murray and his actions. His behaviour and actions were odd and questionable. He didn't even do CPR right. He left Michael alone and waited a long time to call 911.
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Exactly. Despite the distractions, we have to focus on this and on the autopsy report - it tells me all I need to know. Ultimately, I genuinely can't see Murray escaping conviction but I guess we'll have to see what further spin the defense comes up with now, and when this goes to trial.
 
ivy;3173025 said:
. At the hospital, Murray went with Williams and Jackson’s manager to inform the singer’s children their father was dead.

His voice faltered as he recalled how the children, still thinking their father was alive, began listing his allergies for the doctors.

“It was horrible,” he said.
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:cry: Those poor babies. Maybe Murray should have had the cheek to ask for food whilst Paris was screaming at her dead father 'I want to go with you, please don't leave me.'
 
Ortega was testifying about a specific day, so we can't use this to say that Michael was continuously sick or appearing ill.
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according to the fox report kenny said that day was the only time mj was ill/off during rehearsals
 
classic said:
Ortega was testifying about a specific day, so we can't use this to say that Michael was continuously sick or appearing ill. Also, if I was anywhere near that production as Ortega was, there is no way I would have been telling anyone how Michael appeared except to discuss it with Michael or anyone that I thought could help. At the time, that was Michael's business and not the fans' or media's.
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This !
 
Sophielo said:
:cry: Those poor babies. Maybe Murray should have had the cheek to ask for food whilst Paris was screaming at her dead father 'I want to go with you, please don't leave me.'
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:no: heartbreaking. those poor babies
 
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