Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[WhoIsIt89]

And sometimes his own testimony doesn't even match his own testimony. Or doesn't make sense.

Very, very true. Certain things you cannot deny about this case. AEG swears up and down they didn't hire Murray, if that's so, why the E-mails which threaten Murray with his job, that are sent from AEG exec's? "Remind him he works for us, not Michael". That's pretty damning stuff if you ask me. However, most of this case have the family reaching for things to use as "evidence", if you were to ask me.

 

[bouee]

It's interesting to read the jury comments. I find it interesting to see that in the US (we almost never use juries here, except for major crimes, and when we do, there is a professional judge with the jurors), a lot of people analyse juries, and yet always seem to say that juries are unpredictable.

I think that most people are good, and will understand that you don't convict or impose damages because of the lawyers. I found it very weird also when Petrarose said that as a juror she was asked to watch the demeanor of the witnesses.
I mean, when you have a little experience in life or with people, you will understand that demeanor on the stand means nothing if you don't know the person personnally.

Some people can be very nervous and tell the truth (remember Nurse Lee), some people can appear convincing and tell huge lies looking at you in the eyes (Murray).
For example in this trial, I think we can compare Karen & Phillips : both don't seem to be nervous, sometimes arrogant, Phillips has a better sense of humor , but you base your opinion on what they say, not how they say it, don't you ?

So in the end, I think it will come down to what the jurors think the truth is, how they will interpret and check the information they are given.

 

[bouee]

Very, very true. Certain things you cannot deny about this case. AEG swears up and down they didn't hire Murray, if that's so, why the E-mails which threaten Murray with his job, that are sent from AEG exec's? "Remind him he works for us, not Michael". That's pretty damning stuff if you ask me. However, most of this case have the family reaching for things to use as "evidence", if you were to ask me.

Yesterday's question from Panish about what MJ, Peter Lopez and Frank DiLeo had in common (they're all dead) left me ?????

Other than that, generally speaking, I think they're trying to paint a whole situation that would explain AEG's actions I think.

 

[bouee]

Isn't it widely believed that Michael was under the influence of pain meds during the 30th Anniversary concert? And boy, look at that man dance. Does the jury not know this? Because if they did that would throw the Jacksons case down the toilet. If he can dance like that under the influence of pain medication, then whatever was being done to Michael by Murray, under the nose of AEG shouldn't have affected him all that much when it came to performing.

They know. Karen gave him bagels, that's why.

 

[Smooth72]

This is the June 19 picture they are showing

This is the photo I meant to reply on not the Billie jean spin one. My bad sorry. This is what I meant by he looked like shit. Sickly for sure. Sorry all, iPhone is a pain sometimes hopefully it's right now. The Billie jean one is not bad at all. He has more clothes on though so that may make a big difference. They were not really going to make MJ wear that crap on his shoulders and dance where they. Not a fan of that look thats for sure

 

[MIST]

Future plans and mention of Branca in the notes

and another song list

We can discuss song list here
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...aper-from-inside-his-house)-am-I-late-on-this

 

[troubleman84]

I don't know if the jury likes Phillips or not. Maybe they don't like Panish, sometimes I get irritated myself by BOTH lawyers. But whether you like people or not, or like their sense of humor or not, will not change the fact that when you connect the dots, Gongaware's version is a blur, a huge memory loss, and Phillips's is not coherent. He is contradicting himself a lot, and his version is not logical & doesn't make sense IMO, even after the cross by Putnam. And his cross was very short.

:yes: And that's why I think the AEG side is in trouble. With people like Randy, how can you expect each side to be completely honest? Also it's clear that Michael was having trouble himself with the steps he was using. Sure he didn't go full throttle in rehearsals but he was more on his game during the '92 rehearsals than he was during This Is It.

 

[troubleman84]

This is the photo I meant to reply on not the Billie jean spin one. My bad sorry. This is what I meant by he looked like shit. Sickly for sure. Sorry all, iPhone is a pain sometimes hopefully it's right now. The Billie jean one is not bad at all. He has more clothes on though so that may make a big difference. They were not really going to make MJ wear that crap on his shoulders and dance where they. Not a fan of that look thats for sure

Those clothes were enough to camouflage his real skinny frame.

 

[Tygger]

Yesterday's question from Panish about what MJ, Peter Lopez and Frank DiLeo had in common (they're all dead) left me ?????

Those conversations Phillips spoke about with free reign because there was no way to corroborate his testimony. The defense lawyer responded that Dileo did testify in another case which is a baffling response if that testimony is not to be used or is not even appropriate in this civil trial.

Testimony that can be corroborated with a future witness, Ortega for example, usually received a "I do not remember" or a "I do not understand" response. I truly cannot wait for Ortega to testify.

Some fans readily accepted Phillips testimony about what Michael said regarding L.A. Gear because it was entertaining, among other reasons. The fact is, no one knows if Michael said anything of the sort.

 

[serendipity]

I don't think AEG should call him back. He's been a disaster for AEG on the stand. The more he talks, the more he incriminates himself and AEG. He's been Jacksons' strongest witness so far, IMO.

I've been thinking about that meeting with Katherine, Joe, Leonard Rowe, MJ, Phillips etc. and that AEG may want to address it, since the plaintiffs have not. If reports are correct, they were discussing money, possibly family tour or Jacksons getting in on the TII tour, so AEG would want to call Randy for that if nothing else. Personally I'd love to hear about that meeting.

 

[Dunk96]

TMZ is full of sick f*cks - All 155 Pictures from June 25,2009 taken by LAPD LEAKED

So I discovered this over at GagaDaily(popular Lady Gaga fan forum),and discovered that TMZ leaked all 155 pictures from inside Michael's home on June 25th,2009.

(If you have the stomach):
http://www.tmz.com/2013/06/15/michael-jackson-death-photo-scene-gallery/

Thankfully,Michael's body was removed from all the pictures,so there's no pictures of his body at all in this gallery.

 

[ivy]

Some fans readily accepted Phillips testimony about what Michael said regarding L.A. Gear because it was entertaining, among other reasons. The fact is, no one knows if Michael said anything of the sort.

The LA Gear deal was signed in 1989 for $7.5 Million. LA Gear sued Michael in 1992 for $10 Million in a breach of contract lawsuit. LA Gear alleged that Michael promised to use LA Gear sneakers in 3 music videos but he did not deliver the videos by the time contract stated. Michael counter sued them.

Now why do you think Michael did not wear LA Gear shoes in his videos even though he signed a contract to do it? Could it be because he did not like them?

Not everything in life or in a trial would be hard evidence.. Most of the time it will be one persons word that the people will choose to believe or not. Sometimes history could be the collaborating evidence you are looking for.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: TMZ is full of sick f*cks - All 155 Pictures from June 25,2009 taken by LAPD LEAKED

Well isn't that sending lots of fans over there to click on it?

 

[ivy]

Re: TMZ is full of sick f*cks - All 155 Pictures from June 25,2009 taken by LAPD LEAKED

First of all it's not leaked, those are becoming public as being used evidence in trial

secondly I'll merge this thread with the AEG trial discussion.

 

[Dunk96]

UPDATE:
So there's reports coming out from Randy Phillips claiming that Michael's ghost had confirmed to himrofl that his death was an accident.

 

[Tygger]

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts
"When MJ didn't like something, he was less than demure," Phillips testified. "Some of the shoes was really quite hideous," Phillips said.
ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts
"Let's stop this s**t, it's ugly, they don't know what they're doing, this stuff is s**t, they're going to ruin me" Phillips said MJ reacted

Ivy, no one knows if Michael SAID the above. Jurors and fans have to decide if they believe Phillips or not.

Phillips is definitive on testimony that involves other parties that cannot testify to corroborate his version of events. He can remember Michael's exact words from decades ago but, he barely remembers conversations he had with the doctor four years ago.

Phillips' testimony involving other parties that are scheduled to testify resulted in memory lost and confusion of terms and intent.

 

[Petrarose]

Reportedly when asked AEG lawyer Putnam said they did not start their main defense yet

------------------------------------

William J. Wagener
11 hours ago
Friday, 14 June 2013
Los Angeles, Ca.
111 So. Hill St.,

Katherine is in 2nd seat from isle, front right row, young black woman "family" member with her. & Trent in seat behind her, another body guard in hall

WITNESS: Randy Philllips,

Court opened with a brief skirmish about the nasty comments
RANDY PHILLIPS, CEO of A. E. G. Live supposedly said about Kathernine
JACKSON, called her the "b" word just days ago in the POLO Lounge in Beverly Hills where Randy is spending his nights in an top notch Hotel.

Then Panish continued to question Randy Memory. And conflicting statements. 110 times Pannish recalled to PHILLIPS that he had answered
"I don't recall" during his deposition, back in Dec 2012, but 50+ times he said something else . I am beginning to wonder if Mr. Pannish has something better from the Dileo Emails. I peeked in 3rd floor court room. Looks like
Pannish is losing the "captured awe" of half the Jurors.

There you go. That bolded part is exactly what I was saying would happen. The juror got the picture of what Randy was about and who he is A Long Time Ago, so now they need some release, super brain food, and a fresh witness. You cannot keep over-killing a dead thing in the court. I doubt they were ever in awe of Panish, though.

Putnam is right, they have not provided their case yet. All those who already stated that Panish has already proven the case for Katherine, should hold on a little longer.

 

[ivy]

Ivy, no one knows if Michael SAID the above.

and I said " Not everything in life or in a trial would be hard evidence"

Jurors and fans have to decide if they believe Phillips or not.

and I said "Most of the time it will be one persons word that the people will choose to believe or not."

He can remember Michael's exact words from decades ago

are you sure this is his exact words or Phillips is just paraphrasing?

Also to be clear I had issue with your comment

"Some fans readily accepted Phillips testimony about what Michael said regarding L.A. Gear because it was entertaining, among other reasons. "

You acted like fans choose to believe Phillips automatically because he said something funny. I can tell you that I choose to believe what he might be true based on the breach of contract lawsuits back in 1992. If Michael said he would wear the shoes in 3 music videos but didn't and then someone says he hated the shoes, it is collaborative, it fits.

I believe fans deserve a little more credit than you are willing to give them. And life is not only black or white and there are a lot of gray involved - meaning we don't need to look to any witness and label them as liar/devil or honest/saint but we can choose to believe the portions of the testimony to be truthful while we don't believe the other portions- just as the jury instructions tells the jurors.

 

[Petrarose]

Whoisit you make a good point below:

And I find it funny that Panish is using the 30th Anniversary Billie Jean in comparison to the TII rehearsal. Isn't it widely believed that Michael was under the influence of pain meds during the 30th Anniversary concert? And boy, look at that man dance. Does the jury not know this? Because if they did that would throw the Jacksons case down the toilet. If he can dance like that under the influence of pain medication, then whatever was being done to Michael by Murray, under the nose of AEG shouldn't have affected him all that much when it came to performing.

If we go back to the "Red Flags" (gosh I hate those words now), one of the arguments was that drug addict + doc wanting big money & in debt = you should have known doc would compromise his oath and give drugs. Then you see a video where Michael is phenomenal and heard Karen say that was the time when she had to use Bagel Therapy because the doc gave him a drug to make him sleep for 6(?) hours.

I think Panish has an idea of what he would do or show, and he sticks to it. He is not thinking like, OK this person said this, so if I go with my previous plan, there would be some contradiction, so let me switch this around a bit. He simple keeps moving along, and along, and along. Wait till AEG sits down and puts all the evidence from Panish together. They will find all this and counteract it. That is one of the benefits of presenting last.

 

[Aquarius]

These pictures were introduced to evidence in the very first week. Given that TMZ has 150 of them - more than posted on the Jackson lawyers website - it's safe to assume that TMZ got them from the court clerks office. Don't forget : once in evidence, it becomes public records that anyone can get. So no need to "give" or "sell" .

And yeah that is Jeffre.

Thanks Ivy.

So, Jeffre was present when the LAPD were taken the pictures. I know at the beginning the police didn't secured Michael's house but what did they allow Jeffre to be there while they were taking the pics?

 

[crillon]

It's a email by Timm Wooley, from Trell's testimony, Wooley has not testified yet :
Email on 6/23/09 from Timm Wooley to Bob Taylor (insurance broker): Kenny Ortega has responsibility only for the show content and structure Randy Phillips and Dr. Murray are responsible for MJ rehearsal and attendance schedule. Looks like there might have been an issue in KO either not being demanding enough.


"Timm Wooley's statement is inaccurate, in my opinion," Trell said, but agreed he never spoke with Wooley about it, never saw it before. "Meaning MJ showed up whenever MJ wanted to," Trell opined.

I think Trell could be right and until we hear from Wooley under oath, we won't know for sure. Wooley was the tour manager--not a senior guy--so he may not have been in a position to know what conversations were happening or who had responsibilities re/Michael's schedule. He may have just assumed or guessed. I'll defer judgment until he explains that email on the witness stand.

re health issue : is it normal to be cold, rambling , repeating stuff , not being able to use a knife and fork to eat, be reapeating stuff, etcc..? It comes from Karen, Sankey, Travis, Ortega , Hougdahl, Phillps acknowledeges the info. You can call it the flu , side effect of propofol, benzos, we'll never know what it was. That's what i call a health issue.

The flu is not my characterization--it was Kenny Ortega's. Phillips testified there were "no concerns" about Michael's health until June 19th when he arrived at rehearsal shivering, incoherent, anxious, weak, etc. That's when they feared they had a problem and set up a meeting to find out what was going on. And, as for those symptoms--many doctors have since opined that although there is nothing in the literature to support their opinions, because obviously propofol is typically not used daily for 6 weeks and in those quantities, they believe the symptoms Michael experienced were directly related to the propofol/benzo mix.

The weight was an issue for all professionals dancers, and other professionals. I don't think it was only a question of dehydration , it was also a question of strength to do so many shows.
Edit : some people say they were worried before that (alif sankey at the end of May/ june 15th, Hougdahl's 8 weeks e mail)

The "worry" was related to Michael getting enough to eat and curbing the weight loss--it was NOT about a health issue.

Murray was hired (or not) as an independant contractor , not as an employee, that is already cleared up. Didn't Jorrie recommended background checks on Tohme ? So they DO background checks when they think they need to.
What I'm saying is that Phillips had enough info to suspect Murray and he proabably did, and did not need any background checks IMO.
So from that point on, he could have done a number of things , like stop the hiring process, or put it on hold, run background checks... A lot of things, but certainly not naming Murray "responsible for Michael's rehearsal's appearance" . I think he used Murray to "calm down" Ortega and get Michael to rehearse.

I couldn't disagree more. Michael is the one who wanted to "hire" Murray even at the exorbitant fee of $150K/month, despite AEG's suggestion that he engage a doctor in London. Michael called the shots and said, according to Phillip's testimony--my body is the machine & needs to be taken care of and this is my doctor. Michael wanted Murray, a cardiologist he knew for many years, since he treated one of MJ's kids in Las Vegas. So, what's AEG suppose to do? Fight with Michael over his choice of doctor? Demand that the star artist run a background check on a doctor he's known for many years? Because it wasn't AEG's responsibility to "vette" a medical doctor for their adult star. Murray wasn't AEG's idea. Murray was Michael's idea and choice and at the 6/20 Carolwood meeting, MJ and Murray told AEG management that everything was just fine. In fact, the next day at rehearsal, everything looked just fine (as they had said) because Michael had a great rehearsal.

AEG had nothing to be concerned about re/Murray or MJ, because all appeared to be back on track through 6/24.

 

[Victory22]

Yeah, I guess old Panish forgot about Karen's bagel therapy during the 30th show! LOL! I'll bet the jury remembers.

What are the possible side effects of propofol (Diprivan)?

Get emergency medical help if you have any of these signs of an allergic reaction: hives; difficulty breathing; swelling of your face, lips, tongue, or throat.

Call your doctor at once if you have a serious side effect such as:
pain, swelling, blisters, or skin changes where the medicine was injected;
seizure (convulsions);
weak or shallow breathing; or
fast or slow heart rate.
Less serious side effects may include:
nausea;
cough;
slight burning or stinging around the IV needle;
mild itching or skin rash;
numbness or tingly feeling;
confusion, agitation, anxiety;
muscle pain; or
discolored urine.
This is not a complete list of side effects and others may occur. Tell your doctor about any unusual or bothersome side effect. You may report side effects to FDA at 1-800-FDA-1088.
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/drug-propofol/article_em.htm

 

[crillon]

^^^^ And, these are the possible side effects from anesthesiologist-administered propofol for a single event/surgery. So, can you imagine the possibilities after 6 weeks of propofol daily, mixed with benzos? It's remarkable that Michael didn't show any signs sooner.

 

[jamba]

Very, very true. Certain things you cannot deny about this case. AEG swears up and down they didn't hire Murray, if that's so, why the E-mails which threaten Murray with his job, that are sent from AEG exec's? "Remind him he works for us, not Michael". That's pretty damning stuff if you ask me. However, most of this case have the family reaching for things to use as "evidence", if you were to ask me.

The email is actually different: "We want to remind him that it is AEG, not MJ, who is paying his salary." The difference is important b/c in the contract with CM it says clearly that AEG is paying CM at MJ's request and that MJ will repay them, so AEG is fronting or loaning the $$ for CM's salary but MJ is responsible ultimately. That's why IMO the email is not a 'smoking gun.'

Panish is just smearing and casting doubt in any way possible. For example, if Phillips called KJ a bitch--how is that evidence of negligent hiring of CM? If an AEG employee called MJ a 'freak" how is that evidence of negligent hiring? This just mud-raking--it is not presenting releavnt evidence IMO. And this is the bulk of what Panish calls 'the high road' OMG!

We are back to the basic syllogism:

1. AEG wrote nasty emails.
2. Saying nasty things about someone is not nice and not what your mother told you to do.
3. If you are not nice you could be capable of killing or injuring someone.
4. Therefore, AEG should give KJ and PPB a few billion dollars (or more).

This trial is a nightmare that has created an opportunity for fans to bash fans, for haters to bash fans, for tabloids to bash MJ, has hurt MJ's legacy, has contributed to Paris' suicide attempt--and for what? "Die for it, lie for it, even sell your soul to the devil." MONEY.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Ashtanga]

150 + crime scene photos at the link - http://www.tmz.com/2013/06/15/michael-jackson-death-photo-scene-gallery/

OMG!


Shirley Temple! :wub: Oh Michael.... :girl_sigh:


P.S. Sorry people, I could not resist! :blushing: :fear:

On the pic 148 there's a man whose face is back to the cameras but looks like Latoya's friend, can't remember his name. Is he Latoya's friend?

Jeffre Phillips..... :fear:

:blink: :fear:

 

[Tygger]

I do not believe the argument of comparing Michael possibly under the influence and doing multiple 360 spins at the 30th and Michael possibly having the flu, maybe not eating enough, and not being able to do multiple 360 spins in June 2009 will be successful for defendants but, we shall see if they try.

are you sure this is his exact words or Phillips is just paraphrasing?

It seems only Phillips would know for sure. There is no one to corroborate this particular memory of his.

Also to be clear I had issue with your comment

"Some fans readily accepted Phillips testimony about what Michael said regarding L.A. Gear because it was entertaining, among other reasons. "

Thanks for posting the full sentence. However, you seemed to have bypassed the word some and stopped after the word entertaining and posted your response of what you believe I feel about fans in general. Your response and my sentence do not match.

 

[Petrarose]

Jamba ^^that is not a 2 cents, but a "million cents."

Why would the police allow outsiders to be present when they are taking photos of evidence. It is so painful to see this man there, who really is not a close friend of Michael and stole home videos from the home while Michael lay cold in the morgue. I am sure in those reality tv cop shows they make "the public," which Jeffrey is, leave the area. Then, why would you bring your friend to your dead brother's home to steal from him, when you know your brother has children. It really shows Latoya's lack of respect.

 

[AliCat]

OMG!


Shirley Temple! :wub: Oh Michael.... :girl_sigh:


P.S. Sorry people, I could not resist! :blushing: :fear:

Jeffre Phillips..... :fear:

:blink: :fear:

Janet Jackson and sister LaToya arrived at their brother's rented Holmby Hills mansion on Saturday as moving trucks carted off some of the singer's – and his children's – possessions.

A source told PEOPLE that the belongings of Michael Jackson's three children were being removed from the house and taken to the Jackson family home in Encino. The children have been holed up with grandparents – Joe and Katherine – at the San Fernando Valley house since the singer died on June 25.

Janet was at the home during the move, while LaToya showed up later in the day. Some of the singer's prized possessions were also being removed from the house for safekeeping, the source said, because there is concern that someone could break into the home.

Jackson's children – Prince, 12, Paris, 11, and Blanket, 7 – remained with their grandparents on Saturday as relatives came in and out of the Encino house. Jackson's parents have expressed their desire to keep the children, even though Prince and Paris's biological mother Debbie Rowe could gain custody if she chooses.

"They haven't heard from Debbie Rowe and don't know what’s going on in that respect, either," said a family source. "But Joe and Katherine really want the children."
http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20288159,00.html

 

[AliCat]

In reading references of "Michael Jackson's 30th Anniversary Special" about Michael working it, supposedly on drugs, if you listen to those who persist this myth. I watched this show way too may times, back in 2001. In fact, I invited people over to watch it, too. Then I'd go on to bragging rites, how I met Michael Jackson, back in 1976!!

There he was, the Superstar himself, Michael Jackson, on CBS, strutting his stuff, and come to find out, the talk about Michael being high. No Way!!!

I watched the Special so many times and now it has been besmirched by Frank Cascio and David Gest. How could they say such horrendous accusations!

It seems these two had some sort of grudge!

There he was, surrounded by girls who remind me of myself in high school, because the fashion was halter tops and jeans, or at least to me, of the early 70's!

So, then, at the 2:22 (popular show in the 60's, Room 222), Michael Jackson goes to pretend to pinch the black girl's butt. Now, here is where it goes to pure coincidence. In November of 2008, Veteran's Day, I went to a Show in Las Vegas, of a certain celebrity, who I'd had a crush on since the early 1970's. For whatever reason, the Show included a girl who had a striking resemblance to the female dancer of 2:22. This dance also reminds me of the girl at the end of the "Black or White" video, just before the 'panther dance.' Gotta love coincidences.

,

 

[crillon]

After seeing all the crime scene photos, it took awhile for those images to sink in. It's not surprising that the private bedroom area was a mess because no one was allowed to go in and clean up after Michael. That 2nd floor was off-limits to everyone, except the kids & the felon. I'm guessing that because Michael had been betrayed so many times that he understandably didn't trust household staff to enter his private quarters for fear they might exploit him. I get that. But, I can't believe any medical doctor would think this environment was okay and do nothing about it. And it's just gut-wrenching and sad to see how Michael was living his last days, surrounded by cardboard cutouts and as lonely as ever with no adult to turn to and a medical doctor with no integrity. Michael deserved so much better than that.

How do these photos help the plaintiff's case, anyway?