Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[bouee]

I think Trell could be right and until we hear from Wooley under oath, we won't know for sure. Wooley was the tour manager--not a senior guy--so he may not have been in a position to know what conversations were happening or who had responsibilities re/Michael's schedule. He may have just assumed or guessed. I'll defer judgment until he explains that email on the witness stand.

Wooley was an accountant.

Another mistake ????? Can we start a list of mistakes ? There are so many that it's becoming unbelievable.

The flu is not my characterization--it was Kenny Ortega's. Phillips testified there were "no concerns" about Michael's health until June 19th when he arrived at rehearsal shivering, incoherent, anxious, weak, etc. That's when they feared they had a problem and set up a meeting to find out what was going on. And, as for those symptoms--many doctors have since opined that although there is nothing in the literature to support their opinions, because obviously propofol is typically not used daily for 6 weeks and in those quantities, they believe the symptoms Michael experienced were directly related to the propofol/benzo mix.

The flu was definitely NOT Kenny's characterisation, it was Travis', and according to Phillips, Murray's. Phillips seemed to have forgoten about the flu on june 23rd/24th, he didn't think it was weird to see Michael in blankets , since Staples Center was "freezing cold".

As for what those symptoms were, I took the the time to look up Dr Shafer's answers from the Q&A, and copied and pasted them in this thread awhile ago, for everyone to see.
He said : flu, propofol long term use effects, withdrawal from benzos.
Long term use of propofol : he didn't know. the only patients who had long term propofol were in ICU, and showed no adverese effects.

The "worry" was related to Michael getting enough to eat and curbing the weight loss--it was NOT about a health issue..

Someone who is loosing weight instead of putting on weight has a health issue. Maybe not serious, but I would call that an issue.
look at Alif Sankey's testimony (her e mail of the end of may is in the e mail thread), Karen's testimony, Hougdahl's mail (8 weeks)..Some people did see problems before the 19th.

I couldn't disagree more. Michael is the one who wanted to "hire" Murray even at the exorbitant fee of $150K/month, despite AEG's suggestion that he engage a doctor in London. Michael called the shots and said, according to Phillip's testimony--my body is the machine & needs to be taken care of and this is my doctor. Michael wanted Murray, a cardiologist he knew for many years, since he treated one of MJ's kids in Las Vegas. So, what's AEG suppose to do? Fight with Michael over his choice of doctor? Demand that the star artist run a background check on a doctor he's known for many years? Because it wasn't AEG's responsibility to "vette" a medical doctor for their adult star. Murray wasn't AEG's idea. Murray was Michael's idea and choice and at the 6/20 Carolwood meeting, MJ and Murray told AEG management that everything was just fine. In fact, the next day at rehearsal, everything looked just fine (as they had said) because Michael had a great rehearsal.

AEG had nothing to be concerned about re/Murray or MJ, because all appeared to be back on track through 6/24.

- Testimony show that michael was not THAT fine on june 23rd and 24th.
- Phillips made some decsions on 20th , BEFORE he would know what would happen on 23rd or 24th
- If AEG didn't want to be involved with the doctor, all they needed to do was a cash adavance to Michael and let Michael deal with Murray, same situation as Kai Chase. (Trell said that). They did an indep. contract, so they got involved , ans so have their share or responsability.
-They would have run background checks , not Michael.
-Again, with the info Phillips had , the actions he took on 20th I think he had all the reasons to suspect Murray, and he probably did. I detailed why at least twice . You may not agree, and that's OK, but you 're not bringing any new argument. If one thing does not make sense in Phillips testimony, it's his account of that meeting.

 

[Mechi]

May I also add how fascinating it is to me how much his psychological state is ignored...
You see a man who appears to you 'a force' usually, get drunk or pretend to be drunk and not willing at all before he has to make a much important announcement in front of the worlds media really starting the project!
In the following Michael loses weight! He freezes! He says he has sleeping problems! ALTHOUGH HE HAS A DOCTOR!
Karen Faye testifies he wants her in his view always! Not to let certain ppl in etc.!
Ortega writes an email he thinks psychological evaluation is needed!
(Philips, Faye, Ortega, etc. etc.... yeah I didn't forget all JUST drama queens... seeing the very same person who is the focus, the center of all their possible (financial) success... that's a lot of drama queens here uh???!!!)

But everybody thinks cuz he did 2 (enjoy the highness of the number) in letters two good rehearsals all that can be forgotten... and hey there will be no problem to get him on stage live after being off stage for nearly a decade (compare that to 2 good rehearsals!!!) off stage lol and all that in the hand of a cardiologist???!!!... oh sheeeesh maybe I'm too much a psychologist for this -_-... good they didn't play around with my money this way!

Nobody cared! The only believable explanation to me is that they didn't really care about Michael or his physical and psychological health.
To deny obvious problems is less effort, is cheaper even if in the end a tiny bit risky... but hey... there's insurance... btw how's that by now... did they pay or didn't they?

 

[Annita]

So the other vid Panish showed in comparsion to Billie Jean-reharsal in 2009 was Motown 25

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/video

 

[gerryevans]

But everybody thinks cuz he did 2 (enjoy the highness of the number) in letters two good rehearsals all that can be forgotten... and hey there will be no problem to get him on stage live after being off stage for nearly a decade (compare that to 2 good rehearsals!!!) off stage lol and all that in the hand of a cardiologist???!!!... oh sheeeesh maybe I'm too much a psychologist for this -_-... good they didn't play around with my money this way!

Nobody cared! The only believable explanation to me is that they didn't really care about Michael or his physical and psychological health.
To deny obvious problems is less effort, is cheaper even if in the end a tiny bit risky... but hey... there's insurance... btw how's that by now... did they pay or didn't they?

I don't think anybody believes that AEG genuinely cared about Michael Jackson. But as has been said, MJ backing out of this concert would have been disastrous for HIM. It's also been said MJ had other alternatives to get out of his financial bind than doing a concert, but he CHOSE that recourse.

True, the health issues were ignored until they could not be ignored any longer and the June meeting was held. MJ said he was fine. He wanted to proceed. Should MJ's wishes been ignored and the plug pulled?

With so much riding on this concert and so much already invested, I think anyone would have responded by waiting to see what would happen next. Two good rehearsals followed. People behind the scenes say MJ was still not up to par. But people like the grammy executive who didn't have anything to do with either side, said MJ gave a great performance.

Yes, it was only two. Perhaps it really did signal issues were being taken care of and everything was going to be okay. At the time, how could anybody KNOW that was not the case. Nobody knew what Murray was doing. But they did see that MJ appeared to be better after that meeting.

We are all using hindsight now about those two rehearsals and everything else. We'll never know if they were the beginning of getting everything on track or just a fluke and that's because of Conrad Murray's actions that last night.

 

[Mechi]

nope I'm not using hindsight! I might be guilty of using profession and I just have my problems to play things down by just making out lots of drama queens!
And with the issues shown a cardiologist is not enough! And to let him deal with it alone while budgeting him and planing on finalizing a contract with him is not enough!
I understand your arguments, those are mine also... with millions already spent there should have been more care for Michael Jackson as he was the center of it all... and no not against his wishes but as repsonsible adults one can convince also and not only force. However if one is repsonsible sometimes you do have to force just to make sure noone is harmed! Because it doesn't hurt noone in the end if you've visited one more doc (a Psychiatrist in this case! who knows some Neurology well and can also help best with insomnia and of weight loss cuz of stress) for check. Even more since Michael would have had to pass another physical for the insurance as soon as in London. Honestly after hearing that 'drama' Philips told about the anouncement in March... what if Michael wouldn't have been about to overcome stage fear in London... well however another doctor wouldn't have hurt the scene as much as Michaels death finally did.
And again not saying Michael had no part in it himself ALSO... however I do blame all those who were with him at the table at that meeting! They had the knowledge (what they said in the stand even though one suffering by sudden memory loss), they had the possibilities (it's expressed well in: It's us paying his salery) and what they did was not enough.
Of cuz everybody is smarter now... but to me they had enough 'red flags' before that.
And yep everybody should at least learn from this!!! It did cost the life of a loving father of three!!!

The money who cares! *shrugs* Anschutz will stay independent probably even when he has to pay Michaels family those billions (who do not deserve it!!!)... well I don't really care if any insurance will pay it just interests me what they have as reasons if paying or not... although again... I'm happy it wasn't my money those AEG guys played around with. And although it will probably not hurt Anschutz that much I still would like to see money go to charity rather than in Jacksons pockets believe me!!!

 

[8701girl]

according to CNN video they compared TII Billie Jean to 30th anniversary Billie Jean. In 30th anniversary show Michael is doing fast multiple 360 spins at one point. I checked 92 Dangerous Rehearsal video, he's not doing fast multiple spins on that rehearsal either.

92 Rehearsal

TII

30th anniversary

[/QUOTE


I think in different concerts he d may decide to the full spin or do it half way depending on how his body felt. Sure he always did 100% as much as he could when he did concerts but considering the fact he had to do it almost every night it does take a toll on the body he had to make sure he was ok preformance wise

 

[bouee]

I don't think anybody believes that AEG genuinely cared about Michael Jackson. But as has been said, MJ backing out of this concert would have been disastrous for HIM. It's also been said MJ had other alternatives to get out of his financial bind than doing a concert, but he CHOSE that recourse.

True, the health issues were ignored until they could not be ignored any longer and the June meeting was held. MJ said he was fine. He wanted to proceed. Should MJ's wishes been ignored and the plug pulled?

With so much riding on this concert and so much already invested, I think anyone would have responded by waiting to see what would happen next. Two good rehearsals followed. People behind the scenes say MJ was still not up to par. But people like the grammy executive who didn't have anything to do with either side, said MJ gave a great performance.

Yes, it was only two. Perhaps it really did signal issues were being taken care of and everything was going to be okay. At the time, how could anybody KNOW that was not the case. Nobody knew what Murray was doing. But they did see that MJ appeared to be better after that meeting.

We are all using hindsight now about those two rehearsals and everything else. We'll never know if they were the beginning of getting everything on track or just a fluke and that's because of Conrad Murray's actions that last night.

You are seeing things from Michael's point of view, but here it's AEG that's on trial, so it's about what THEY did.

"MJ backing out of this concert would have been disastrous for HIM" :

It would have been problematic for AEG too, because they still had no insurance. Michael did cancel the last leg of Dangerous, that was not great for him at the time. And we don't know if he could have recovered in time for the first shows. Maybe postponing would have not been necessary, we don't really know.

"With so much riding on this concert and so much already invested, I think anyone would have responded by waiting to see what would happen next. Two good rehearsals followed. People behind the scenes say MJ was still not up to par. But people like the grammy executive who didn't have anything to do with either side, said MJ gave a great performance. "

I think it was more than just "wait and see", from Phillips. "Wait and see" makes no sense when you have the info he had, when you look at what he did, his accountS of june 20th meeting and what he did before that.

How can he say that it would have been Ok for Michael to walk around in blankets at Staples Center because Staples Center was "freezing cold" ? Was he contaminated with the flu also ? This is only one of the answers that he gave that is very very suspicious to me. Michael was better on those 2 days, but not well.

We'll never know if Michael could have got better in time, that's true, because both Michael AND Phillips chose to go along with Murray. Phillips had the possibility to fire Murray or at least put the hiring process on hold, and he didn't chose to do that, he apparently did just the opposite.

 

[MIST]

At least one dancer said it seemed like Michael didn´t behave like it was his concerts, he wasn´t in charge.
But for the last rehearsals he took command, it was his show.
He also said I can do it.
There is no doubt that Michael could sing and dance(perhaps there were problems to do it at the same time)but just like for example a sprinter who is looking for the shape Michael was looking for to find the right shape.
I mean to find the magic.

I think after what had happened to Michael his self-confidence got a blow , he hadn´t performed for a long time and was unsure.
Kenny supported him, dancers and singers admired him he got the right feeling and the magic was on it´s way.
When Michael said I can do it it seems like he had doubted himself before.

It´s the only explanation I can think of why Michael´s 2 last performances were so much better than earlier.

Another thing Judge Pastor in the Murray-trial watched footage from the rehearsals and didn´t see a sick and tired man.

 

[crillon]

Wooley was an accountant.

Another mistake ????? Can we start a list of mistakes ? There are so many that it's becoming unbelievable.

If you google Tim Wooley, he is listed alternately as "tour manager" for TII and as VP of Event Operations Accounting for AEG Live. Regardless of his title, my point still stands: until we hear his testimony, we cannot judge the veracity of his claims in the emails regarding Michael's schedule. Period.

As for starting a list of mistakes, maybe you need one:

The flu was definitely NOT Kenny's characterisation, it was Travis', and according to Phillips, Murray's.

The Ortega e-mail was not sounding an alarm about Jackson's health but just telling Phillips that Jackson was suffering "flu-like symptoms," Putnam said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/01/showbiz/jackson-death-trial

As for what those symptoms were, I took the the time to look up Dr Shafer's answers from the Q&A, and copied and pasted them in this thread awhile ago, for everyone to see.
He said : flu, propofol long term use effects, withdrawal from benzos.
Long term use of propofol : he didn't know. the only patients who had long term propofol were in ICU, and showed no adverese effects.

You're not saying anything new here and it sounds like you now agree that Michael's symptoms on 6/19 were related to the propofol/benzo mix. And, we all know from the criminal trial and the propofol experts who testified, that there are no research studies of long-term use of propofol.

Someone who is loosing weight instead of putting on weight has a health issue.

Not if you are Michael Jackson. MJ--and this is true for dancers, performers--lost 2-4 lbs. per day when performing. Kenny and others knew this and THAT's why they were concerned he was losing too much weight, too quickly--NOT that he was sick. They wanted him to eat more and that's why Kenny was literally cutting his food & making sure he ate. Phillips testified they assigned a "food guy" to Michael for that very reason.

ETA: From above post

We'll never know if Michael could have got better in time, that's true, because both Michael AND Phillips chose to go along with Murray. Phillips had the possibility to fire Murray or at least put the hiring process on hold, and he didn't chose to do that, he apparently did just the opposite.

Michael wasn't "sick" so the only way he would have gotten "better in time" is if Murray stopped giving him propofol nightly.

 

[bouee]

seriously.... either I don't understand what you want, or it's really just arguing for the sake of arguing. I apologise if that's not the case.

If you google Tim Wooley, he is listed alternately as "tour manager" for TII and as VP of Event Operations Accounting for AEG Live. Regardless of his title, my point still stands: until we hear his testimony, we cannot judge the veracity of his claims in the emails regarding Michael's schedule. Period.

I didnt google Timm Wooley, i read testimony on this forum.

yes, let's wait for his testimony.

let's wait for the 110th "I don't remember" "that was a mistake".

As for starting a list of mistakes, maybe you need one:




The Ortega e-mail was not sounding an alarm about Jackson's health but just telling Phillips that Jackson was suffering "flu-like symptoms," Putnam said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/01/showbiz/jackson-death-trial

Really ? Why the agressivity ?
You're giving me Putnam's interpretation. There's an e mail thread, go check what Ortega wrote. tell me if you see the word "flu".

You're not saying anything new here and it sounds like you now agree that Michael's symptoms on 6/19 were related to the propofol/benzo mix. And, we all know from the criminal trial and the propofol experts who testified, that there are no research studies of long-term use of propofol. I already said that.

Read again what i wrote.



[/QUOTE] Not if you are Michael Jackson. We've gone over this already, haven't we? MJ--and this is true for dancers, performers--lost 2-4 lbs. per day when performing. Kenny and others knew this and THAT's why they were concerned he was losing too much weight, too quickly--NOT that he was sick. They wanted him to eat more and that's why Kenny was literally cutting his food & making sure he ate. Phillips testified they assigned a "food guy" to Michael for that very reason.[/QUOTE]

Did they say that was the only reason ?
Oh and by the way couldn't the doctor be the food person ?

 

[crillon]

seriously.... either I don't understand what you want, or it's really just arguing for the sake of arguing. I apologise if that's not the case.

I accept your apology. We are here discussing, right? I just happen to disagree with your POV that's all. It's always difficult to pick up "tone" in these discussions, so misunderstandings can easily happen.

Really ? Why the agressivity ?

I'm not being aggressive at all--I'm sorry you see it that way. I was just responding to your comment to me (which frankly, seemed a bit rude) in your earlier post:

Another mistake ????? Can we start a list of mistakes ? There are so many that it's becoming unbelievable.

 

[crillon]

I don't think anybody believes that AEG genuinely cared about Michael Jackson. But as has been said, MJ backing out of this concert would have been disastrous for HIM. It's also been said MJ had other alternatives to get out of his financial bind than doing a concert, but he CHOSE that recourse.

True, the health issues were ignored until they could not be ignored any longer and the June meeting was held. MJ said he was fine. He wanted to proceed. Should MJ's wishes been ignored and the plug pulled?


Yes, it was only two. Perhaps it really did signal issues were being taken care of and everything was going to be okay. At the time, how could anybody KNOW that was not the case. Nobody knew what Murray was doing. But they did see that MJ appeared to be better after that meeting.

We are all using hindsight now about those two rehearsals and everything else. We'll never know if they were the beginning of getting everything on track or just a fluke and that's because of Conrad Murray's actions that last night.

I agree with everything you've said, especially the bolded part. Pulling the plug would have been unthinkable for Michael and he said he needed Murray to "take care of the machine" as he told Phillips. So, how could AEG (after that 6/20 meeting when Phillips & Gongaware are reassured everything is just fine) ignore Michael & Murray and insist on a background check, getting a new doctor in, etc. It's ludicrous and makes no sense at all to me. I think AEG execs were alarmed after seeing MJ's condition on 6/19, had the meeting to find out what's going on & next steps, and they were told all is OK, and then MJ shows up at rehearsals and he does great. Problem solved in their minds...on with the show.

 

[gerryevans]

You are seeing things from Michael's point of view, but here it's AEG that's on trial, so it's about what THEY did.

"MJ backing out of this concert would have been disastrous for HIM" :

It would have been problematic for AEG too, because they still had no insurance. Michael did cancel the last leg of Dangerous, that was not great for him at the time. And we don't know if he could have recovered in time for the first shows. Maybe postponing would have not been necessary, we don't really know.

"With so much riding on this concert and so much already invested, I think anyone would have responded by waiting to see what would happen next. Two good rehearsals followed. People behind the scenes say MJ was still not up to par. But people like the grammy executive who didn't have anything to do with either side, said MJ gave a great performance. "

I think it was more than just "wait and see", from Phillips. "Wait and see" makes no sense when you have the info he had, when you look at what he did, his accountS of june 20th meeting and what he did before that.

Actually, I was taking into account all sides by the time of that specific meeting. And wait and see makes perfect sense considering as you say, it would have been problematic for AEG to pull the plug. So yeah, I understand all parties wanting to proceed at that point to see if there would be a difference, even if it was only wishful thinking.

As another poster pointed out, a dancer also said that Michael seemed to take control that last rehearsal. This was a dancer who previously had said he felt sorry for MJ because he seemed to have so little control. MJ may not have been a 100% that night off stageas many of us originally thought based on his performance, but from many accounts, he was doing better. Why wouldn't people believe he was on the mend and would continue to improve?

We'll never know if Michael could have got better in time, that's true, because both Michael AND Phillips chose to go along with Murray. Phillips had the possibility to fire Murray or at least put the hiring process on hold, and he didn't chose to do that, he apparently did just the opposite.

Okay, so taking the position that those last two rehearsals meant nothing, that MJ was as bad off as ever, and AEG stopped the Murray contract process, told MJ we're not advancing you anything for Murray, do you really believe that would have been the end of him? Murray had already ordered 4 gallons of propofol. Do you seriously think that the MJ and Murray relationship would have been over? I don't, and think MJ would have figured out a way to keep him around. And if his tragic death still occurred, I also believe Katherine would still have figured out a way to blame AEG for it. Whether they pulled the plug or didn't pull plug, whether they distanced themselves from Murray or didn't distance themselves, if Michael died at Murray's hand, Katherine and company would have blamed AEG.

 

[troubleman84]

There does seem to be confusion but on the part of AEG. On one hand, he appeared ill on June 19th. So how in the hell could he appear to be fine on June 20th as Randy claimed?! Another thing that doesn't add up is that according to Randy, the performances were good on June 23rd and June 24th but according to what was revealed from coroners, Michael had arthritis and obviously was struggling. Even the TII DVD shows him struggling a bit on some rehearsals. And I find the account that Murray basically told Randy to "back off" when questioning about how Michael's health was being handled more telling. You mean to tell me at one point, Randy did consider wanting to know how Michael was being properly handled and then the next, just brushed it aside and said Michael was fine? Yeah, something's amiss here.

 

[crillon]

^^^ I don't understand all this conversation about Michael "being on the mend" and surprise that he was doing fine on the 20th, as compared to the 19th. What is Michael "on the mend" from? The side effects of propofol and benzos. It seems on the 20th he was doing just fine, because the side effects wore off or Murray gave him something to counterract them, or Michael sensing AEG's concern & not wanting them to find out about the propofol, pulled it together with his considerable strength and fortitude. Who knows? But, what we do know is that Michael's autopsy spells out that overall he was healthy, because he died from propofol intoxication.

 

[bouee]

I accept your apology. We are here discussing, right? I just happen to disagree with your POV that's all. It's always difficult to pick up "tone" in these discussions, so misunderstandings can easily happen.



I'm not being aggressive at all--I'm sorry you see it that way. I was just responding to your comment to me (which frankly, seemed a bit rude) in your earlier post:

" Another mistake ????? Can we start a list of mistakes ? There are so many that it's becoming unbelievable." I was talking about AEG's so called "mistakes" , not yours, I thought that was clear.

"As for starting a list of mistakes, maybe you need one" : that was a personal thing, directed at me, personnally. Did you find that mention of the flu that Ortega made according to you ? i'm sorry, but at least I try to stick to the facts.

Apology accepted ? LOL ! You are the first poster in 4 years who made it to my ignore list!

 

[ivy]

I think the confusion is we don't know why he was sick on June 19 to start with or what we assume to be case. There are illnesses that people feel better in 24 hours such as a stomach bug and even cold / flu. Michael was reportedly okay earlier June 19 during dress rehearsal but later got worse and sent home, the next afternoon he looked fine. Was it a withdrawal symptom and he looked fine the next day as Murray gave him the drugs? Or was it a nervous system problem that continued (the call to Nurse Lee - that AEG probably did not know)?

See the issue is normal people cannot diagnose an illness. On June 19 Ortega and other saw MJ not well and they sent emails. The other people's response was "wtf? what is going on?", they immediately started asking questions, calling the doctor, arranging a meeting. They were told he was fine, Michael said he was fine. He looked better. So they said "fine, you know it best". Not many people would argue with a doctor's diagnoses. They said "okay take 2 days off and rest" and when he came back he looked and performed better. Perhaps they thought "okay relax, he is indeed fine".

A lot of people here actually bring their hindsight to their comments. We know that Michael was't fine as he was improperly being given Propofol and Benzos for 6 weeks but those people - none of them - had that knowledge.

 

[crillon]

" Another mistake ????? Can we start a list of mistakes ? There are so many that it's becoming unbelievable." I was talking about AEG's so called "mistakes" , not yours, I thought that was clear.

"As for starting a list of mistakes, maybe you need one" : that was a personal thing, directed at me, personnally. Did you find that mention of the flu that Ortega made according to you ? i'm sorry, but at least I try to stick to the facts.

Apology accepted ? LOL ! You are the first poster in 4 years who made it to my ignore list!

I think you're making a really big deal out of nothing...misunderstandings happen, especially in forums where serious subjects are discussed, and when they do, I think people usually just clear them up and move on. I don't think anyone has ever put me on "ignore" (that I know of LOL), but to each his own. It's all for L.O.V.E., as Michael would say.

 

[bouee]

Actually, I was taking into account all sides by the time of that specific meeting. And wait and see makes perfect sense considering as you say, it would have been problematic for AEG to pull the plug. So yeah, I understand all parties wanting to proceed at that point to see if there would be a difference, even if it was only wishful thinking.

As another poster pointed out, a dancer also said that Michael seemed to take control that last rehearsal. This was a dancer who previously had said he felt sorry for MJ because he seemed to have so little control. MJ may not have been a 100% that night off stageas many of us originally thought based on his performance, but from many accounts, he was doing better. Why wouldn't people believe he was on the mend and would continue to improve?



Okay, so taking the position that those last two rehearsals meant nothing, that MJ was as bad off as ever, and AEG stopped the Murray contract process, told MJ we're not advancing you anything for Murray, do you really believe that would have been the end of him? Murray had already ordered 4 gallons of propofol. Do you seriously think that the MJ and Murray relationship would have been over? I don't, and think MJ would have figured out a way to keep him around. And if his tragic death still occurred, I also believe Katherine would still have figured out a way to blame AEG for it. Whether they pulled the plug or didn't pull plug, whether they distanced themselves from Murray or didn't distance themselves, if Michael died at Murray's hand, Katherine and company would have blamed AEG.

re the bolded part : do you remember who it was ??

I'm trying to avoid hindsight. I think seeing Michael on 23rd and 24th only comforted Phillips that he had made the right choice, 3 days earlier.

-
look at his versions of june 20th meeting : he seems to have issues saying that Michael's health and sleep issues were discussed. Why ? It's obvious that at least his health would be discussed given what had just happened.

Phillips said he remembers the meeting on June 20th lasted at least an hour. Dr. Murray and Phillips were sitting in one couch, MJ was in a bench and Ortega on another couch. In his deposition, Phillips said Ortega talked about MJ's physical and mental status. On the stand today, Phillips explained Ortega did very little talking in the meeting. "He addressed Michael coming to rehearsals." "I do not believe he talked about MJ's physical condition and mental state. Dr. Murray did most of the talking," Phillips testified.
...........
Without getting into details, Phillips said Ortega and Murray "were a little combative" at the meeting. Phillips said Murray reassured everyone that Jackson's health was fine. He said Jackson also assured them nothing was wrong with him. He said Murray told the group that Jackson may have had the flu, or some similar ailment. He said Jackson's health was discussed. Phillips said he couldn't recall whether Jackson's sleep issues were discussed. A portion of Randy Phillips' deposition was played in which he said sleep issues were discussed at the June 20, 2009 meeting.(AP)
.........
Phillips said lack of sleep was discussed in the June 20th meeting, but wasn't the main focus. Phillips said the reason of the meeting was to find out what happened in the night before, what was the issue and also MJ missing rehearsals.

- He said he didn't remember if Michael was still wrapped in blankets on 24th (he was). Phillips said that it wouldn't have been surprising since Staples Center was freezing cold. He's the 1st one to say that. Why not say he thought Michael had the flu, if that's what Murray said ?

- look at the info he had on 19th/20th , before the meeting, in the email thread. That's the same day as the "anticipatory breach" mail. So basically he thought Michael was sick, possibly had been not well for some time (8 weeks, ie Murray's time with Michael) , WAS suspecting drugs , but he thought it was Klein- inspite of having an invoice that would have casted a doubt an this theory , and he was afraid of Ortega quitting the show.
i think that what played a major part in his decision was cancelling or postponing , because they had no insurance, and Michael had "myriads of lawsuits" : AEG would not have seen their money back anytime soon.

- look at the words he used in his e mail to ortega "Murray told him that---would hasten his decline" : Phillips acknowledges there was a decline, and possibly Murray told him that too.

- he says Michael looked fine on 20th. Ok, but he was not well on 19th, not well either on 21st, and better but still not well on 23rd and 24th. So Michael was miraculously better on 20th ?

-Then , on 20th, so 3 days before the 23rd, he makes a series of decision :

-hires a food person (why can't the $150 000 full time doctor do that, feed his only patient ? It's not that difficult to feed someone who has a low appetite.)
-looks for a physical therapist, when Michael had previously refused one. So there was a problem.
- then we have that mystery e mail from Timm Wooley , about Murray being repsonsible for Michael's attendance.

I have been suspecting that Phillips knew something was weird with Murray (I never said, and I don't think he knew exactly what happened and/or how dangerous it could be) , he cautionned it, as long as he put Michael on stage IMO.

Yes, maybe Michael would have found a way to get propofol, maybe not. But at least AEG was out of it, if Katherine had tried to sue them , they would have a much easier defense.

 

[Petrarose]

There he was, surrounded by girls who remind me of myself in high school, because the fashion was halter tops and jeans, or at least to me, of the early 70's!

So, then, at the 2:22 (popular show in the 60's, Room 222), Michael Jackson goes to pretend to pinch the black girl's butt. Now, here is where it goes to pure coincidence. In November of 2008, Veteran's Day, I went to a Show in Las Vegas, of a certain celebrity, who I'd had a crush on since the early 1970's. For whatever reason, the Show included a girl who had a striking resemblance to the female dancer of 2:22. This dance also reminds me of the girl at the end of the "Black or White" video, just before the 'panther dance.' Gotta love coincidences.

,

You know I am amazed at how these fashions seem coming back and people think they are new. I think only the material/fabric might be different. You are right that halter top and pants is pure 1970s, but then in movies I saw it in the 60's and even in the 40's. Also that tight leggin used to be shinny and worn in the disco or dance club. The leggings are still here sort of reinvented with patterns. We could go on and on about that subject.

Anyone has a hint of who will be on Monday? I wish they could get to the family. One report said it might be an expert. I pray it is not another drug expert. The jurors will start to snore.

 

[Petrarose]

There does seem to be confusion but on the part of AEG. On one hand, he appeared ill on June 19th. So how in the hell could he appear to be fine on June 20th as Randy claimed?! Another thing that doesn't add up is that according to Randy, the performances were good on June 23rd and June 24th but according to what was revealed from coroners, Michael had arthritis and obviously was struggling. Even the TII DVD shows him struggling a bit on some rehearsals. And I find the account that Murray basically told Randy to "back off" when questioning about how Michael's health was being handled more telling. You mean to tell me at one point, Randy did consider wanting to know how Michael was being properly handled and then the next, just brushed it aside and said Michael was fine? Yeah, something's amiss here.

You can have arthritis and still work and perform very well, and Michael's condition was mild in a finger and lower spine, I think. That would make sense since he hurt his back, and arthritis loves to go where you break a bone. Also, arthritis may flare up and you feel pain. Then it behaves itself again and everything is ok. Also, the coroner never said when Michael received this condition, so we do not know if he had it during the dangerous tour, history tour, or even the Bad. Didn't we see him dancing well during those times? This is just to show you that we make assumptions about things being strange or imply that people are lying, when we don't even have all the information. Michel has said he performed with pain many times. I think all performers do.

Yes you can look pretty sick one day and the next look fine. For example, having too much to drink or eat, get a bad reaction from a drug, be deprived from sleep one night, be in severe pain one day, having the runs & chills one day, etc., will have many people looking sick and shaky one day, but when they go home, if they have the right remedy and drugs they look fine the next day. A boss or anyone working with humans over a period of time, can look at their faces and see they are sick and tell them go home. The next day when they come back they will look fine. This happens several times in the real world. Obviously the person needed either some sleep, medicine to get them back on their feet.

The fact is that Michael did look bad one day and then he did a great performance after that. They do not know how to explain it. During the trial many of us were speculating that maybe Muarry had stopped the prof for 2 days.

What is so strange about Muarry telling Randy back off and then Randy taking his word for Michael being ok? If a dr tells you he has things under control you are going to believe him. Of course now that we all know what happened every night, some might feel differently because they are using that knowledge to interpret the events. That is not going to work in court where the jurors are going to hear from the defense, and they have already shown that they had no idea what was happening in the night. None went to Michael's bedroom at night.

 

[bouee]

Why not keep it simple then : "yes, we knew Michael had sleep issues, we knew that was Murray's job, we never thought he would do anything dangerous, Michael chose the doctor, etc.."

 

[gerryevans]

re the bolded part : do you remember who it was ??

Here you go on the dancer. It was Kriyss Grant. Note the bold part. (I've also posted the MJCC link to the thread. If it doesn't work, put his name in search)

**********************
March 2010

Another dancer's testimony about Michael on TII **Update post 32**
Kriyss Grant speaks and I think spills some "secrets" the others tried not to reveal. What do you think? This is puzzling

On Stage with Michael Jackson
http://www.bocamag.com/Boca-Raton-Ma...chael-Jackson/
Local entertainer Kriyss Grant, the first dancer chosen by Michael Jackson for his “This Is It” tour, discusses what it was like working with the “King of Pop.”

On the influence Jackson had on him: “I was really brought up with Michael Jackson. My grandmother bought me ‘Moonwalker,’ [the 1988 film that showed, among other things, Jackson in concert] which is something I watched every day. ... I wanted to be just like that. ... I would always try to perform. If there was a party, a family reunion, anything, I would dance and perform for everyone.”

On his audition: “I was scared. And I didn’t think I was going to get it. But I went. ... It was a three-day audition period. Thousands of dancers [4,000]. Michael came the third day. ... I had never been on tour. I was the newest dancer from Florida. Everyone else was from L.A. and had worked with and danced backup for other artists, so they had that on their resume. I had [MTV’s] ‘Making the Band’ on my résumé.

“Had Michael not been there, I don’t think I would’ve been picked. ... Michael saw me, he saw the feeling in me. I saw him jump up while I was dancing, but I didn’t know what he was reacting to. Later, they told me that he was reacting to me and how he saw himself in me.”

On meeting him for the first time: “When we stepped off the stage to go meet him, he was like the statue on his ‘History’ album. He was dressed in all black, he had the glasses on. And his hands were really big and firm; they took over my entire hand. ... He told me I was amazing. ... I was just staring at him. I think I told him he was awesome. I don’t know.”

On his personality and energy: “Michael was the type of person who would look at you and know, like that, what you were all about. ... He was say certain things like he knew you. He knew I was nervous. He’d tell me to save my energy for the crowd. Always positive, but it was also like [the comments were tailored] to us.
“There were times when I’d feel the energy of the music, feel his energy, and I’d be dancing all out. And he would stop and look at me. I thought maybe I was going too hard, doing too much. But he’d shake his head and smile, like whatever I was doing was a good thing.”

“He was very warm. I’d never felt anything like that. I was so happy. His energy was like no other.”

On rehearsals: “Michael would come in occasionally in the beginning. ... He didn’t start rehearsing with us until we moved to the Staples Center. He was killing it, going full out, doing slides and everything—it was crazy. ... As soon as that music would come on, he’d start killing it. We’d look at each other like, ‘Is he trying to outdo us?’ ... He still had it. He proved that. ... But he was nervous. He was 50, and he hadn’t danced like that in a long time. He had to familiarize his body with all those moves he used to do. I think he was scared; he couldn’t take the stage and appear fragile to us.”

The last rehearsal: “He was his old self. He was interacting with us, giving us suggestions, making changes. In the beginning, he let everyone else run things. Then, he was like, ‘This is my show. We’re going to do it how I want to do it.’ I loved it. That’s something I always wanted to see. I thought he was being taken advantage of in the beginning because he was older. ... And you could tell he had something to say, but he wouldn’t say it. But that last day, he took over.
“He knew what he wanted. The dancers were like, ‘Good, he’s speaking up.’ The dancers had Michael’s back.”

The day Jackson died: “We didn’t know what to do, what to say, where to go. It was this feeling of you finally getting to where you always wanted—of finally making it. And before you get to grasp it, it’s snatched away from you. ... It’s like a tease. I touched it, but did this really happen? I have memories, but there was no time to sit in that moment and really feel the vibe. Everything happened so fast, fast, fast in rehearsals ... And then, it’s all taken away.

“It really hasn’t hit me yet. I know I was a part of it. I know it was a big deal to be a Michael Jackson dancer on the ‘This Is It’ tour that never happened. ... I don’t think it will ever hit me.”

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...-TII-**Update-post-32**?highlight=Chris+Grant

*****************

 

[ivy]

Why not keep it simple then : "yes, we knew Michael had sleep issues, we knew that was Murray's job, we never thought he would do anything dangerous, Michael chose the doctor, etc.."

we haven't seen the defense yet..

as for the sleep issues, I don't think they knew (or accept to know) that Michael had chronic sleep issues that required medication. To me it seems like the only thing they accepted is occasional not sleeping well etc.

 

[marebear]

I remember during the Murray trial someone said ( I am sorry but I can't remember who) that it was amazing that Michael survived Murray's treatments over all those weeks. What happened June 25 could have happened earlier. It just all makes me sad.

 

[ivy]

Something I wanted to point out from the dancers interview

On rehearsals: “Michael would come in occasionally in the beginning. ... He didn’t start rehearsing with us until we moved to the Staples Center. He was killing it, going full out, doing slides and everything—it was crazy. ... As soon as that music would come on, he’d start killing it. We’d look at each other like, ‘Is he trying to outdo us?’ ... He still had it. He proved that. ... But he was nervous. He was 50, and he hadn’t danced like that in a long time. He had to familiarize his body with all those moves he used to do. I think he was scared; he couldn’t take the stage and appear fragile to us.”

Staples Center rehearsals were June 23 and June 24th. So in this version Michael was on top of his game on those 2 days

 

[Petrarose]

Crillon I wanted to say how I like what you are bringing to the discussion.

On another note, have we forgotten that this trial is not about sickness but negligent hiring. I see we have been stuck in the sick mode, maybe because the plaintiffs are stuck there too. In spite of that, I see some of us are using knowledge of sickness and personality disorders which come from e-mails, to prove the allegation is true.

Maybe we could pin point what parts of the evidence we have seen so far could be connected to negligent hiring? Now that should be interesting. We will really have to use our brains now.

It will be very sad if the plaintiffs put on a case, finish with their main witnesses Treel, Randy, Gonga, and end the case without touching on the main allegation in this trial, which is negligent hiring--unless the smoking gun e-mail, was it.

 

[crillon]

Crillon I wanted to say how I like what you are bringing to the discussion.

Thank you :hug: I appreciate it, Petra.

On another note, have we forgotten that this trial is not about sickness but negligent hiring. I see we have been stuck in the sick mode, maybe because the plaintiffs are stuck there too. In spite of that, I see some of us are using knowledge of sickness and personality disorders which come from e-mails, to prove the allegation is true.

Maybe we could pin point what parts of the evidence we have seen so far could be connected to negligent hiring? Now that should be interesting. We will really have to use our brains now.

It will be very sad if the plaintiffs put on a case, finish with their main witnesses Treel, Randy, Gonga, and end the case without touching on the main allegation in this trial, which is negligent hiring--unless the smoking gun e-mail, was it.

Exactly! ITA. I've thought throughout the plaintiff's case (thus far) that if they had more to put up as far as evidence is concerned, they wouldn't be spinning their wheels with extraneous nonsense & playing emotional cards. And, this civil trial is taking as long or longer than criminal trials do! Wasn't the OJ Simpson trial 4 months' long?

 

[Victory22]

The media had been calling Michael CRAZY for decades. Can you imagine how hurt, humiliated and angry he would have been at Phillips if he'd attempted to have him emotionally evaluated? I think pulling a move like that on Michael would have been disastrous and it wouldn't have saved his life at all.

 

[Petrarose]

The media had been calling Michael CRAZY for decades. Can you imagine how hurt, humiliated and angry he would have been at Phillips if he'd attempted to have him emotionally evaluated? I think pulling a move like that on Michael would have been disastrous and it wouldn't have saved his life at all.

Any one who recommends that Randy have Michael evaluated is exposing Randy to a lawsuit from Michael, which most likely will be settled in favor of Michael. I don't know where some people live, or if they are looking at too much tv, but you can't just go and have someone evaluated. You can't go and have doctors do tests on people to look for something that you think might be there. The child protective services in New York got into serious trouble in the 80s (?) for doing something like that. All Randy could do is ask Michael if he had any problems and say something like will a therapist help. If Michael was acting really psychotic and I don't mean shaking, talking about God, and repeating himself, all he could do was call 911 and they would come and bring him to the hospital. It is up to the doc there who after asking questions and doing a quick observation can say let's do a psychiatric eval.

If we all requested psychiatric evaluations on those who worked with us when something was going on with them, then most of the workforce will be evaluated.