Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[troubleman84]

The media had been calling Michael CRAZY for decades. Can you imagine how hurt, humiliated and angry he would have been at Phillips if he'd attempted to have him emotionally evaluated? I think pulling a move like that on Michael would have been disastrous and it wouldn't have saved his life at all.

It's telling he was actually considering it... which is really stupid on his part. Again, he proves you can't trust him on his word, he keeps changing the story.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

See the issue is normal people cannot diagnose an illness. On June 19 Ortega and other saw MJ not well and they sent emails. The other people's response was "wtf? what is going on?", they immediately started asking questions, calling the doctor, arranging a meeting. They were told he was fine, Michael said he was fine. He looked better. So they said "fine, you know it best". Not many people would argue with a doctor's diagnoses. They said "okay take 2 days off and rest" and when he came back he looked and performed better. Perhaps they thought "okay relax, he is indeed fine".

This is aeg's interpretation of what was going on. I simply don't see it reflected in their emails. If everything was going well with mj in the lead up to tii, why on one day on the 19th when he had 'flu like' symptoms, does all hell break loose? All the top execs start talking of 'big trouble', claims of a 'deterioration over the past 8 weeks', 'doubt is pervasive', mj is a 'basket case', time to 'circle the wagons', 'i could tell there was trouble as phillips was so jittery all week'. Are all aeg execs all a bunch of drama queens who sit around emailing each other working themselves up into a panic over one bad rehearsal? Whatever happened on the 19th seemed to be a culmination of problems with mj, and it comes a few days after a previous meeting held with mj/murray which phillips felt compelled to call an 'intervention'. At the 20th june meeting, i would fully expect mj to say he was fine - is phillips the type of compassionate , empathetic guy mj cd talk over his problems with. MJ seemed to be under the impression that the plug was going to be pulled on tii, if mj was in financial trouble at the end of 08 then a further debt of $34m to aeg was going to push him over the edge. Mj was 'locked in' to tii as aeg knew he wd be, as randy himself said to the media about mj at the end of may, it was 'do or die', so whatever it took mj would try and get the rest required to make the rehearsals.

Before this trial started, i thought the idea of aeg being liable as completely ridiculous as i saw the crucial factor being murray behaving outrageously with gross negligence - completely unforeseeable. But so far it looks as if aeg are going to ignore murray's negligence and put everything on mj and his addiction to drugs, esp to propofol. Putnam has claimed that aeg were in no position to save mj from his longitme battle with addiction, there is no mention of murray's role. If that's the case, as i see aeg putting huge pressure on mj to perform or face financial disaster, and mj as a consequence resorting to murray to give him prop to enable him to rest at night, then by their narrative i suppose i can now see it's possible to regard aeg as partly liable for mj's death. I just don't think aeg have done themselves any favours by pinning the entire blame onto mj and by gonga's and phillip's evasive testimony about the period leading up to 25 june.

 

[ivy]

well no, not everything was going well. he wasn't showing to rehearsals and Ortega wasn't sure if the show would be ready. He had been complaining about it for a while and I believe it is what made Phillips jittery. That's what made him refuse additional $1 Million advance as he thought Michael perhaps could not deliver. The June 19 illness - assuming it would require some time to get better - would put them seriously behind in preparations and cause them even not have a show on the opening day. He testified Gongaware wasn't that worried because he believed Michael would perform when it was showtime.

MJ seemed to be under the impression that the plug was going to be pulled on tii, if mj was in financial trouble at the end of 08 then a further debt of $34m to aeg was going to push him over the edge. Mj was 'locked in' to tii as aeg knew he wd be, so whatever it took he would try and get the rest required to make the rehearsals.

the problem with this if he could not perform a first class show and the shows were a failure, Michael would be in breach of contract and had to pay back everything. How would Michael be able to perform a good show if he had these issues?

 

[WhoIsIt89]

The email is actually different: "We want to remind him that it is AEG, not MJ, who is paying his salary." The difference is important b/c in the contract with CM it says clearly that AEG is paying CM at MJ's request and that MJ will repay them, so AEG is fronting or loaning the $$ for CM's salary but MJ is responsible ultimately. That's why IMO the email is not a 'smoking gun.'

Panish is just smearing and casting doubt in any way possible. For example, if Phillips called KJ a bitch--how is that evidence of negligent hiring of CM? If an AEG employee called MJ a 'freak" how is that evidence of negligent hiring? This just mud-raking--it is not presenting releavnt evidence IMO. And this is the bulk of what Panish calls 'the high road' OMG!

We are back to the basic syllogism:

1. AEG wrote nasty emails.
2. Saying nasty things about someone is not nice and not what your mother told you to do.
3. If you are not nice you could be capable of killing or injuring someone.
4. Therefore, AEG should give KJ and PPB a few billion dollars (or more).

This trial is a nightmare that has created an opportunity for fans to bash fans, for haters to bash fans, for tabloids to bash MJ, has hurt MJ's legacy, has contributed to Paris' suicide attempt--and for what? "Die for it, lie for it, even sell your soul to the devil." MONEY.

Just my 2 cents.

Believe me, I know and I agree with what you're saying. I also know what the e-mail said, however I wasn't sure word by word, which is why what I wrote is different from the e-mail. I didn't know however that the contracts says plain as day that Murray was being paid by AEG at the request of Michael. That's the only thing I didn't know about, and that IMO, was the families only hope. But since the contract clearly says what it says, the Jacksons don't have a leg to stand on.

I also agree with the last sentence, since it began I've said this trial and his family will bring more harm to Michael than most tabloids have since his death. Thanks to them, the tabloids now have more ammo for the lies they print.

 

[WhoIsIt89]

In reading references of "Michael Jackson's 30th Anniversary Special" about Michael working it, supposedly on drugs, if you listen to those who persist this myth. I watched this show way too may times, back in 2001. In fact, I invited people over to watch it, too. Then I'd go on to bragging rites, how I met Michael Jackson, back in 1976!!

There he was, the Superstar himself, Michael Jackson, on CBS, strutting his stuff, and come to find out, the talk about Michael being high. No Way!!!

I watched the Special so many times and now it has been besmirched by Frank Cascio and David Gest. How could they say such horrendous accusations!

It seems these two had some sort of grudge!

There he was, surrounded by girls who remind me of myself in high school, because the fashion was halter tops and jeans, or at least to me, of the early 70's!

So, then, at the 2:22 (popular show in the 60's, Room 222), Michael Jackson goes to pretend to pinch the black girl's butt. Now, here is where it goes to pure coincidence. In November of 2008, Veteran's Day, I went to a Show in Las Vegas, of a certain celebrity, who I'd had a crush on since the early 1970's. For whatever reason, the Show included a girl who had a striking resemblance to the female dancer of 2:22. This dance also reminds me of the girl at the end of the "Black or White" video, just before the 'panther dance.' Gotta love coincidences.

,

You're right, but they aren't the only one who made such claims, Karen Faye did as well. We don't know how true it is, but the fact is, those who were a part of his circle at the time, claim he was under the influence of meds a doctor gave him. I didn't say what I said to debate whether it was true or not, I said it because regardless, that's the widely accepted belief. Now with that said, it's a major contradiction on behalf of The Jacksons and Panish that they use that performance in comparison with the Billie Jean rehearsal on TII, because not only is it believed that he was under the influence of pain meds then, but he moves effortlessly and dances as if he's 100% and has no care in the world. And they use that video in an attempt to besmirch Michael's condition during the TII rehearsals. But again, it's believed he was under the influence of pain medication during the 30th Anniversary as well. This whole thing is just a reach by the Jacksons and the lawyers. I pray for Katherine, I really do, but once the defense get's their chance, this case is going to be ripped to shreds right in front of her.

 

[Ashtanga]

Janet Jackson and sister LaToya arrived at their brother's rented Holmby Hills mansion on Saturday as moving trucks carted off some of the singer's – and his children's – possessions.

A source told PEOPLE that the belongings of Michael Jackson's three children were being removed from the house and taken to the Jackson family home in Encino. The children have been holed up with grandparents – Joe and Katherine – at the San Fernando Valley house since the singer died on June 25.

Janet was at the home during the move, while LaToya showed up later in the day. Some of the singer's prized possessions were also being removed from the house for safekeeping, the source said, because there is concern that someone could break into the home.

Jackson's children – Prince, 12, Paris, 11, and Blanket, 7 – remained with their grandparents on Saturday as relatives came in and out of the Encino house. Jackson's parents have expressed their desire to keep the children, even though Prince and Paris's biological mother Debbie Rowe could gain custody if she chooses.

"They haven't heard from Debbie Rowe and don't know what’s going on in that respect, either," said a family source. "But Joe and Katherine really want the children."
http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20288159,00.html

Yes.... BUT who trusts in the family? :bugeyed Nobody. :nono: They obviously took a lot of things of Michael though. :fear:

After seeing all the crime scene photos, it took awhile for those images to sink in. It's not surprising that the private bedroom area was a mess because no one was allowed to go in and clean up after Michael. That 2nd floor was off-limits to everyone, except the kids & the felon. I'm guessing that because Michael had been betrayed so many times that he understandably didn't trust household staff to enter his private quarters for fear they might exploit him. I get that. But, I can't believe any medical doctor would think this environment was okay and do nothing about it. And it's just gut-wrenching and sad to see how Michael was living his last days, surrounded by cardboard cutouts and as lonely as ever with no adult to turn to and a medical doctor with no integrity. Michael deserved so much better than that.

How do these photos help the plaintiff's case, anyway?

The pictures broke my heart and made ​​me even sadder. It was a feeling of abandonment and neglect with Michael. NOBODY was there for Michael. I never had any doubts that he really was completely alone. The world and the people were so hard on Michael. He was not able to able to trust anyone. *big sigh*

 

[Petrarose]

Guys don't forget that Michael said he was messy. Plus he was packing so he could leave so nothing will be neat. Then, he had some crazy fans who love to give him gifts all the time, so you see a lot of bags around. Then he did not let people in due to thefts & we all know about what some of his staff did. He also was shopping for leaving, so you will see bags with things all over. I can tell you I have lots of brothers and they are that messy. It is just that they have mates who tidy up and keep things in order. This is not to say that all men are messy.

I don't think his room was this way because he was abandoned, but because he was engaged in a lot of ideas and creative projects which needed more attention than cleaning up. Plus the issues I reported above. I also think that when he died, Muarry was scrambling around looking for things and trying to hide things, so he scattered things around in his panic. I remember one of the security said Muarry told him to pick up a bottle. Now a bottle should not be on the floor so Muarry must have been in a panic searching around and inadvertently making things fall on the floor. So just looking at the photos does not tell the whole story.

 

[jamba]

I think the confusion is we don't know why he was sick on June 19 to start with or what we assume to be case. There are illnesses that people feel better in 24 hours such as a stomach bug and even cold / flu. Michael was reportedly okay earlier June 19 during dress rehearsal but later got worse and sent home, the next afternoon he looked fine. Was it a withdrawal symptom and he looked fine the next day as Murray gave him the drugs? Or was it a nervous system problem that continued (the call to Nurse Lee - that AEG probably did not know)?

See the issue is normal people cannot diagnose an illness. On June 19 Ortega and other saw MJ not well and they sent emails. The other people's response was "wtf? what is going on?", they immediately started asking questions, calling the doctor, arranging a meeting. They were told he was fine, Michael said he was fine. He looked better. So they said "fine, you know it best". Not many people would argue with a doctor's diagnoses. They said "okay take 2 days off and rest" and when he came back he looked and performed better. Perhaps they thought "okay relax, he is indeed fine".

A lot of people here actually bring their hindsight to their comments. We know that Michael was't fine as he was improperly being given Propofol and Benzos for 6 weeks but those people - none of them - had that knowledge.

I agree hindsight is 20/20 as they say. We can all see it somewhat better NOW but back then it was so unclear b/c they didn't have the benefit of hindsight. Even now we are still trying to figure out the reason for the symptoms and can only make educated guesses, a lot based on CM trial testimony from Shafer.

I ran across a comment from Dr. Sanjay Gupta of CNN when he saw the video they released of the final rehearsal--he said "he doesn't look ill to me"--just a doctor looking at a video, but there you see that even a professional dr. couldn't look at the rehearsal footage and say--he's ill--so how could the others be expected to say otherwise when they saw the same thing at the last rehearsals?

 

[Petrarose]

Jamba ^^ thank you. That is the problem I have. Shaffer said there is no extensive research on using prof for a long period (think there was 1 in a controlled environment), and he could not say exactly what the hot/cold was due to, yet fans know exactly what prof did to Michael and the reason he was hot/cold. The coroner explained what he saw, yet fans know about specific problems that caused Michael's death, that the coroner could not even detect. Karen knew Michel was going to die, and had no medical information to back that up. Then if you knew someone was going to die, why wouldn't you warn them and try to help. People see Michael stumbling up the ramp, looking shaky, and one fan said in 2010 "with a false sense of bravado," but I can't see it. There are several more....

 

[jamba]

Thank you :hug: I appreciate it, Petra.



Exactly! ITA. I've thought throughout the plaintiff's case (thus far) that if they had more to put up as far as evidence is concerned, they wouldn't be spinning their wheels with extraneous nonsense & playing emotional cards. And, this civil trial is taking as long or longer than criminal trials do! Wasn't the OJ Simpson trial 4 months' long?

The Judge is IMO asleep at the wheel and that's one reason why it is a sprawling hot mess.

 

[jamba]

Jamba ^^ thank you. That is the problem I have. Shaffer said there is no extensive research on using prof for a long period (think there was 1 in a controlled environment), and he could not say exactly what the hot/cold was due to, yet fans know exactly what prof did to Michael and the reason he was hot/cold. The coroner explained what he saw, yet fans know about specific problems that caused Michael's death, that the coroner could not even detect. Karen knew Michel was going to die, and had no medical information to back that up. Then if you knew someone was going to die, why wouldn't you warn them and try to help. People see Michael stumbling up the ramp, looking shaky, and one fan said in 2010 "with a false sense of bravado," but I can't see it. There are several more....

Yes, good point. Expert opinions are questioned or overruled, so we sometimes seem to end up with a bunch of tea leaf reading.

Maybe Lionel Richie's relative (daughter?) has the right idea--we need to get in touch with MJ's ghost to resolve all the controversies asap.

 

[jamba]

i see aeg putting huge pressure on mj to perform or face financial disaster, and mj as a consequence resorting to murray to give him prop to enable him to rest at night, then by their narrative i suppose i can now see it's possible to regard aeg as partly liable for mj's death. Bonnie Blue

ok, but if they did put huge pressure on MJ, could they have known about CM using propofol so carelessly for so long. Didn't CM order huge amts of propofol, benzos, etc, way back months earlier? Before the famous 8 weeks of deterioration? Didn't CM admit to giving MJ propofol for 6 weeks prior to his death? This was an ongoing event before June 19/20. Before the Smoking Gun--so-called, before Trouble at the Front, before no 360 multiple spins, before the emails sent by KO and Bugsbee (stage manager), that set off the emails to PG and RP, etc.

CM was careless from Day One. He never got the right equipment to monitor MJ or resuscitate him. He never learned how to safely administer propofol and he mixed it all up with the lorazepam, etc. Shaffer said it was amazing MJ lived as long as he did.

 

[elapentela]

re the bolded part : do you remember who it was ??

I'm trying to avoid hindsight. I think seeing Michael on 23rd and 24th only comforted Phillips that he had made the right choice, 3 days earlier.

-
look at his versions of june 20th meeting : he seems to have issues saying that Michael's health and sleep issues were discussed. Why ? It's obvious that at least his health would be discussed given what had just happened.



- He said he didn't remember if Michael was still wrapped in blankets on 24th (he was). Phillips said that it wouldn't have been surprising since Staples Center was freezing cold. He's the 1st one to say that. Why not say he thought Michael had the flu, if that's what Murray said ?

- look at the info he had on 19th/20th , before the meeting, in the email thread. That's the same day as the "anticipatory breach" mail. So basically he thought Michael was sick, possibly had been not well for some time (8 weeks, ie Murray's time with Michael) , WAS suspecting drugs , but he thought it was Klein- inspite of having an invoice that would have casted a doubt an this theory , and he was afraid of Ortega quitting the show.
i think that what played a major part in his decision was cancelling or postponing , because they had no insurance, and Michael had "myriads of lawsuits" : AEG would not have seen their money back anytime soon.

- look at the words he used in his e mail to ortega "Murray told him that---would hasten his decline" : Phillips acknowledges there was a decline, and possibly Murray told him that too.

- he says Michael looked fine on 20th. Ok, but he was not well on 19th, not well either on 21st, and better but still not well on 23rd and 24th. So Michael was miraculously better on 20th ?

-Then , on 20th, so 3 days before the 23rd, he makes a series of decision :

-hires a food person (why can't the $150 000 full time doctor do that, feed his only patient ? It's not that difficult to feed someone who has a low appetite.)
-looks for a physical therapist, when Michael had previously refused one. So there was a problem.
- then we have that mystery e mail from Timm Wooley , about Murray being repsonsible for Michael's attendance.

I have been suspecting that Phillips knew something was weird with Murray (I never said, and I don't think he knew exactly what happened and/or how dangerous it could be) , he cautionned it, as long as he put Michael on stage IMO.

Yes, maybe Michael would have found a way to get propofol, maybe not. But at least AEG was out of it, if Katherine had tried to sue them , they would have a much easier defense.

First, nobody knew how MJ felt on June 21st. Second, MJ was one of those people who still felt cold when others were feeling hot. Look at the old rehearsal movies. Especialy the one from Italy when he is dancing in heavy, winter jacket. It's probably was normal for him to use blankets after his "numbers", especially in cold temperature. It had to be high level of air conditioning in Staple. How they would be able to rehearse in June if the air condition wouldn't be on high? Of course Jackson's lawyers are not able to think logically so they will try any kind of argument with hope that something will stick. It's remain me Snedon in action...

 

[bouee]

the problem with this if he could not perform a first class show and the shows were a failure, Michael would be in breach of contract and had to pay back everything. How would Michael be able to perform a good show if he had these issues?

So Phillips closed his eyes on the doctor...

Guys don't forget that Michael said he was messy. Plus he was packing so he could leave so nothing will be neat. Then, he had some crazy fans who love to give him gifts all the time, so you see a lot of bags around. Then he did not let people in due to thefts & we all know about what some of his staff did. He also was shopping for leaving, so you will see bags with things all over. I can tell you I have lots of brothers and they are that messy. It is just that they have mates who tidy up and keep things in order. This is not to say that all men are messy.

I don't think his room was this way because he was abandoned, but because he was engaged in a lot of ideas and creative projects which needed more attention than cleaning up. Plus the issues I reported above. I also think that when he died, Muarry was scrambling around looking for things and trying to hide things, so he scattered things around in his panic. I remember one of the security said Muarry told him to pick up a bottle. Now a bottle should not be on the floor so Muarry must have been in a panic searching around and inadvertently making things fall on the floor. So just looking at the photos does not tell the whole story.

Agreed, and the family went into the rooms before the police did.

Jamba ^^ thank you. That is the problem I have. Shaffer said there is no extensive research on using prof for a long period (think there was 1 in a controlled environment), and he could not say exactly what the hot/cold was due to, yet fans know exactly what prof did to Michael and the reason he was hot/cold. The coroner explained what he saw, yet fans know about specific problems that caused Michael's death, that the coroner could not even detect. .

I have never seen anyone claiming to "know" on this board. All I have seen are people citing Shafer on the possible reasons of june 19th.
Does Shafer disagree with the coroner then ?
If I use your logic, how come the coroner doesn't explain june 19th ?
Michael's problems were caused by drugs, that's why.

 

[bouee]

First, nobody knew how MJ felt on June 21st. Second, MJ was one of those people who still felt cold when others were feeling hot. Look at the old rehearsal movies. Especialy the one from Italy when he is dancing in heavy, winter jacket. It's probably was normal for him to use blankets after his "numbers", especially in cold temperature. It had to be high level of air conditioning in Staple. How they would be able to rehearse in June if the air condition wouldn't be on high? Of course Jackson's lawyers are not able to think logically so they will try any kind of argument with hope that something will stick. It's remain me Snedon in action...

Someone called Nurse Lee, this is from her testmony (CM Trial)

June 21st she received a call from FM. FM called to say that MJ wanted to see her. Lee heard MJ in the background saying “tell her what's wrong with me, one half of my body is hot, one half is cold”. Lee told FM that someone needed to take MJ to hospital. Lee was in Florida when she got the call.

If Staples Center was freezing, we would have heard that already. People were generally surprised to see Michael in blankets, including people who knew him, like Karen.

 

[bouee]

Crillon I wanted to say how I like what you are bringing to the discussion.

On another note, have we forgotten that this trial is not about sickness but negligent hiring. I see we have been stuck in the sick mode, maybe because the plaintiffs are stuck there too. In spite of that, I see some of us are using knowledge of sickness and personality disorders which come from e-mails, to prove the allegation is true.

Maybe we could pin point what parts of the evidence we have seen so far could be connected to negligent hiring? Now that should be interesting. We will really have to use our brains now.

It will be very sad if the plaintiffs put on a case, finish with their main witnesses Treel, Randy, Gonga, and end the case without touching on the main allegation in this trial, which is negligent hiring--unless the smoking gun e-mail, was it.

What would be a proof of hiring for you, and all those who say we haven't seen any proof yet ?

So far we have seen an independant contractor contract instead of a cash advance, budgets that included Murray in production costs, relationship AEG-Murray (meetings, Murray responsible for Michael's appearance at rehearsals) , e mails about Murray (who's paying his salary, Murray full time on tour by may 15th, Timm Wooley's mail, etc... ).
We also have e mails from the same Timm Wooley refusing to pay Murray because the contract was not executed.

we haven't seen the defense yet..

as for the sleep issues, I don't think they knew (or accept to know) that Michael had chronic sleep issues that required medication. To me it seems like the only thing they accepted is occasional not sleeping well etc.

I'm not sure I understand "accept to know". Does it mean they knew, but don't want to admit they knew ?

 

[elapentela]

Someone called Nurse Lee, this is from her testmony (CM Trial)


If Staples Center was freezing, we would have heard that already. People were generally surprised to see Michael in blankets, including people who knew him, like Karen.

Someone called nurse Lee nobody said a word to AEG executives. Murray was off that day. MJ was very often wrapped in blankets during and after the shows. You can believe Karen if you want.

 

[bouee]

You can believe Karen if you want.

I said "People were generally surprised to see Michael in blankets, including people who knew him, like Karen." So, not only Karen. Meaning if Staples Center was cold we would have heard from it already.

 

[gerryevans]

What would be a proof of hiring for you, and all those who say we haven't seen any proof yet ?

So far we have seen an independant contractor contract instead of a cash advance, budgets that included Murray in production costs, relationship AEG-Murray (meetings, Murray responsible for Michael's appearance at rehearsals) , e mails about Murray (who's paying his salary, Murray full time on tour by may 15th, Timm Wooley's mail, etc... ).
We also have e mails from the same Timm Wooley refusing to pay Murray because the contract was not executed.

With this trial, I think "hire" really is all about personal perspective. Don't think it can be an absolute definition. It really will come down to how the juror's individually perceive what the term hire means in these particular circumstances to make AEG responsible for Murray being a part of this tour.

To me, Murray is MJ's hire and employee. He recruited him, arranged a way to pay him through AEG, just like he arranged to pay off his Bahrain suit. It was MJ's suit. AEG paid it off. It didn't suddenly become AEG's lawsuit because they paid it or interacted with Bahrain reps to do so, which makes sense they would have had to have some interaction with Bahrain reps directly to finalize the payoff.

That Murray was in meetings and was told to make sure MJ made it to rehearsals didn't suddenly make him an AEG hire for me.

No more so than if there was an electrician at the Staples center who was an AEG direct employee, that MJ asked to relocate a cable. Just because MJ requested him to do something wouldn't suddenly make him a hire of MJ for me. If this same electrician attended meetings where they all were discussing various elements, and MJ said to the electrician if you can't get this right, I won't be able to perform and you won't get paid, it still would not make him an MJ hire.

Murray was a part of this tour ONLY because of MJ. He insisted on having him. To me, there has been NOTHING to convince me of otherwise. That might be a different case for the jurors. We shall see.

 

[bobmoo79]

I kinda agree, I have not yet seen any evidence that specifically ties Murray and AEG together in an employer / employee relationship.
Mostly the evidence only implies that relationship exists. Without a signed contract between Murray and AEG I don't think AEG will lose this case.
the most compelling evidence in Katherine's favour is the email stating that AEG pay Murray's salary, but again this only implies that he is an employee of theirs. Even Murray's salary being included in the budget is only an implication. I'm not familiar with US employment law, but these things do not prove that Murray was actually an employee of AEG IMO.

 

[bouee]

I kinda agree, I have not yet seen any evidence that specifically ties Murray and AEG together in an employer / employee relationship.
Mostly the evidence only implies that relationship exists. Without a signed contract between Murray and AEG I don't think AEG will lose this case.
the most compelling evidence in Katherine's favour is the email stating that AEG pay Murray's salary, but again this only implies that he is an employee of theirs. Even Murray's salary being included in the budget is only an implication. I'm not familiar with US employment law, but these things do not prove that Murray was actually an employee of AEG IMO.

I know it can seem nitpicking, but just in case, if Murray is considered hired, it will be as an independant contractor, like Ortega or all the staff on TII , not as an AEG employee (Phillips or Gongaware in this case).

I think this is important because you have

- AEG employees (Gongaware, Phillips, etc..)

- Indep contractors hired by AEG "on behalf" of Michael for TII (Kenny, Travis, Karen, etc...and also Murray IMO)

- Michael's personnal employees (Kai Chase, nanny, security...) that he hired and paid directly using a cash advance that AEG gave him. For me, Murray should definitely have been in this category.

 

[Big Apple2]

The pictures broke my heart and made ??me even sadder.

Good Morning All!

Those pictures broke my heart as well.

Who's website are they posted on - the law firm of Mr. Panish or the law firm of Mr. Putnam?

 

[bouee]

Good Morning All!

Those pictures broke my heart as well.

Who's website are they posted on - the law firm of Mr. Panish or the law firm of Mr. Putnam?

Gooood Morning (afternoon here )

1) TMZ
2) Panish, but I think they're public, there was a discussion about that earlier in this tread

 

[Big Apple2]

Gooood Morning (afternoon here )

1) TMZ
2) Panish, but I think they're public, there was a discussion about that earlier in this tread

Thanks bouee!

I don't understand how those pictures can possibly help Mother's case. I mean, aside from the Propofol bottles, what's the point? Whether Michael's room was tidy or not, has nothing to do with hiring Murray, in my opinion.

Also, does anybody know if it has been OFFICIAL established and not a rumor, that Murray was pumping Michael fulll of propofol, before MJ started his rehearsal sessions? I was just wondering.

 

[Big Apple2]

I noticed one of Alan Duke's CNN headline's over the weekend read:

"Evidence: Jackson's Skill Deteriorated"

I'm sure Michael would be SO happy to know that his Mother's favorite "journalist" (and I use the word loosely) is talking about how his skill DETERIORATED. That's just what the tabloid's were reporting when Michael first made the O2 announcement, if I recall correctly.

Mr. James Brown had his problems with drugs (same thing goes for certain members of the Rolling Stones, Aerosmith, Eminem, etc.) and "criminal" activity over the years, but I NEVER heard it being reported that his skills had deteriorated. THANKS MOTHER!

 

[Vici]

This is aeg's interpretation of what was going on. I simply don't see it reflected in their emails. If everything was going well with mj in the lead up to tii, why on one day on the 19th when he had 'flu like' symptoms, does all hell break loose? All the top execs start talking of 'big trouble', claims of a 'deterioration over the past 8 weeks', 'doubt is pervasive', mj is a 'basket case', time to 'circle the wagons', 'i could tell there was trouble as phillips was so jittery all week'. Are all aeg execs all a bunch of drama queens who sit around emailing each other working themselves up into a panic over one bad rehearsal? Whatever happened on the 19th seemed to be a culmination of problems with mj, and it comes a few days after a previous meeting held with mj/murray which phillips felt compelled to call an 'intervention'. At the 20th june meeting, i would fully expect mj to say he was fine - is phillips the type of compassionate , empathetic guy mj cd talk over his problems with. MJ seemed to be under the impression that the plug was going to be pulled on tii, if mj was in financial trouble at the end of 08 then a further debt of $34m to aeg was going to push him over the edge. Mj was 'locked in' to tii as aeg knew he wd be, as randy himself said to the media about mj at the end of may, it was 'do or die', so whatever it took mj would try and get the rest required to make the rehearsals.

Agree with this. All of this cant be based on "one bad day".

 

[Vici]

^^^^ And, these are the possible side effects from anesthesiologist-administered propofol for a single event/surgery. So, can you imagine the possibilities after 6 weeks of propofol daily, mixed with benzos? It's remarkable that Michael didn't show any signs sooner.

Have it been established if and for how many weeks MJ recieved propofol on previous tours??? Did he ever show any kind of symptoms that can be related to propofol??

 

[bouee]

^^ some people do say they saw "signs" sooner. I agree 19th was a culmination of something that started before that.

 

[8701girl]

So Phillips closed his eyes on the doctor...

I think he just didnt care

 

[ivy]

What would be a proof of hiring for you ?

I don't think there would be hard proof that people 100% agree upon on this trial. For example

Was Murray hired?


On one hand you have negotiations, draft contracts, the start date of May on the contracts and so on. Some people can conclude that there was an implied contract and the draft contract stated Murray's start date was May - hence he was hired.

On the other hand there's a written contract that states it's not valid until it is signed by all parties - including Michael. Some people might look to that and say Murray wasn't hired as the contract wasn't signed.

Jury has those choices as well.

Who hired Murray? AEG or Michael?

The contract which says Murray was hired on the request of Michael and being paid from Michael's share, Murray being Michael's doctor for 3 years, AEG not wanting to hire him but hire a UK doctor etc points out that Murray was hired by Michael.

On the other hand AEG was involved in the contract, they were advancing the money, and there's Gongaware's email that said "we want to remind Murray AEG is paying his salary"..

Was the hiring negligent?

If you say AEG hired Murray to the above questions. The next one becomes if the hiring was negligent. Jacksons would probably argue about the need for background checks through their experts.

AEG up to this point told that they don't do background checks on independent contractors or the people referred by the artists.

What did they know or should have known?

What Gongaware knew or did not know will probably be more examined. Did anyone thought Michael had drug issues in 2009 too? Even if they knew Murray's debts could they conclude he would do what he did? and so on...


----------------------------------------------------------------

Now if I was jury - of course I have a bias -

- I would say Murray was hired. Murray had signed his contract on June 24, and I have no reason to think Michael wouldn't have signed it if he lived. The contract said the start date was May. So I would have said Murray was hired.

- However in regards to who hired Murray I'm leaning on Michael. The 3 year previous treatments, Michael wanting the doctor, the contract writing it was Michael who wanted the doctor and even the mistaken classification of Murray as a production cost (and not an artist advance) means Michael was expected to pay at least 95% of Murray's salary. Gongaware's email is working against AEG but that alone as of now does not seem enough to me and the main reason Gongaware wasn't at the meeting and there's nothing to suggest that "remind Murray it's AEG paying his salary" was ever told to Murray.

- I'm waiting to see how the Jacksons will justify the background check. As of now - and I'll say that it hasn't been mentioned much- I haven't seen a reason as to why a background check - a financial background check - would be needed of Murray. What should have made them say "we have to check on the doctor?"