Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Big Apple2]

NOTE TO MR. PANISH:

You are what, 4 weeks into your case - Where's The Beef?

Having sat on a jury 5 times, thus far in my lifetime, if I were a member of this jury I would be bored to tears. One thing you do NOT want to do is bore the jury with things that have nothing to do with your case in chief. They will lose interest and stop listening to anything you have to say. That has been MY experience anyway.

 

[bouee]

I don't think there would be hard proof that people 100% agree upon on this trial. For example

Was Murray hired?


On one hand you have negotiations, draft contracts, the start date of May on the contracts and so on. Some people can conclude that there was an implied contract and the draft contract stated Murray's start date was May - hence he was hired.

On the other hand there's a written contract that states it's not valid until it is signed by all parties - including Michael. Some people might look to that and say Murray wasn't hired as the contract wasn't signed.

Jury has those choices as well.

Who hired Murray? AEG or Michael?

The contract which says Murray was hired on the request of Michael and being paid from Michael's share, Murray being Michael's doctor for 3 years, AEG not wanting to hire him but hire a UK doctor etc points out that Murray was hired by Michael.

On the other hand AEG was involved in the contract, they were advancing the money, and there's Gongaware's email that said "we want to remind Murray AEG is paying his salary"..

Was the hiring negligent?

If you say AEG hired Murray to the above questions. The next one becomes if the hiring was negligent. Jacksons would probably argue about the need for background checks through their experts.

AEG up to this point told that they don't do background checks on independent contractors or the people referred by the artists.

What did they know or should have known?

What Gongaware knew or did not know will probably be more examined. Did anyone thought Michael had drug issues in 2009 too? Even if they knew Murray's debts could they conclude he would do what he did? and so on...


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Now if I was jury - of course I have a bias -

- I would say Murray was hired. Murray had signed his contract on June 24, and I have no reason to think Michael wouldn't have signed it if he lived. The contract said the start date was May. So I would have said Murray was hired.

- However in regards to who hired Murray I'm leaning on Michael. The 3 year previous treatments, Michael wanting the doctor, the contract writing it was Michael who wanted the doctor and even the mistaken classification of Murray as a production cost (and not an artist advance) means Michael was expected to pay at least 95% of Murray's salary. Gongaware's email is working against AEG but that alone as of now does not seem enough to me and the main reason Gongaware wasn't at the meeting and there's nothing to suggest that "remind Murray it's AEG paying his salary" was ever told to Murray.

- I'm waiting to see how the Jacksons will justify the background check. As of now - and I'll say that it hasn't been mentioned much- I haven't seen a reason as to why a background check - a financial background check - would be needed of Murray. What should have made them say "we have to check on the doctor?"

So would you (and others) say that Kenny, Karen, etcc were hired by AEG or Michael ???

Background checks : Murray was obviously not very successful doctor, as it relates to Michael's health, he was as suspicious as Klein IMO. So, background checks, maybe not right at the beginning, but after a while, yes, definitely, especially after 19th/20th events. Based on my opinion that Phillips, at least , had an idea of what Murray was doing.
So far PG's testimony is a big memory loss, but it looks like Jacksons will have witnesses that will say that PG knew of previous drug issues and previous "bad doctors".

 

[Smooth72]

Thanks bouee!

I don't understand how those pictures can possibly help Mother's case. I mean, aside from the Propofol bottles, what's the point? Whether Michael's room was tidy or not, has nothing to do with hiring Murray, in my opinion.

Also, does anybody know if it has been OFFICIAL established and not a rumor, that Murray was pumping Michael fulll of propofol, before MJ started his rehearsal sessions? I was just wondering.

I can't see those pictures helping anything. All it does is hurt MJ image more. Not only was Murray a shitty doctor he couldn't even she care of the meds or the piss in the containers. Sad very sad. Haters are having a field day saying how can u call him a good father with a the meds around. I hope the kids never went in that room not a safe environment for anyone. Maybe MJ was going to have another child someday maybe that explains the baby picture and sign. Don't shoot me but that just isn't right why the hell would anyone have a display like that. Love MJ but that is just different. IMO

 

[Smooth72]

Thanks bouee!

I don't understand how those pictures can possibly help Mother's case. I mean, aside from the Propofol bottles, what's the point? Whether Michael's room was tidy or not, has nothing to do with hiring Murray, in my opinion.

Also, does anybody know if it has been OFFICIAL established and not a rumor, that Murray was pumping Michael fulll of propofol, before MJ started his rehearsal sessions? I was just wondering.

I can't see those pictures helping anything. All it does is hurt MJ image more. Not only was Murray a shitty doctor he couldn't even Take care of the meds or the piss in the containers. Sad very sad. Haters are having a field day saying how can u call him a good father with a the meds around. I hope the kids never went in that room not a safe environment for anyone. Maybe MJ was going to have another child someday maybe that explains the baby picture and sign. Don't shoot me but that just isn't right why the hell would anyone have a display like that. Love MJ but that is just different. IMO

 

[Big Apple2]

I can't see those pictures helping anything. All it does is hurt MJ image more. Not only was Murray a shitty doctor he couldn't even she care of the meds or the piss in the containers. Sad very sad. Haters are having a field day saying how can u call him a good father with a the meds around. I hope the kids never went in that room not a safe environment for anyone. Maybe MJ was going to have another child someday maybe that explains the baby picture and sign. Don't shoot me but that just isn't right why the hell would anyone have a display like that. Love MJ but that is just different. IMO

I feel you Smooth72.

I'm not sure folks would understand everything that is going on in my bedroom either. LOL! Its my PRIVATE sanctuary, not to be entered unless I have had an opportunity to tidy up a bit.

I saw the baby pictures, but don't recall seeing any sign. What did the sign say?

 

[Smooth72]

I feel you Smooth72.

I'm not sure folks would understand everything that is going on in my bedroom either. LOL! Its my PRIVATE sanctuary, not to be entered unless I have had an opportunity to tidy up a bit.

I saw the baby pictures, but don't recall seeing any sign. What did the sign say?

If I remember correctly it said Awww Baby! It was a carboard sign pretty big. The bottom draw of his dresser was pulled out and it was propped up there. Idk just really odd. The doll in the bed I'm going with Paris gave it to him to help him sleep. Sounds good anyways. My son gives me his stuff cheetah to sleep with when I don't feel well so I'm thinking that's the deal with MJ and the doll. Nothing crazy there I don't think. This needs to end friends it's sucks. What going to happen when AEG puts on there case? I don't even want to guess it won't be good that for sure. We need to suck it up I guess we will get thru it, it's just getting tiring and never ending. I still say it would be a good time for new music. His music speaks for him and us. Thanks all

 

[serendipity]

My guess is he probably got all those baby stuff as gifts from fans. Fans just kept giving him that kind of gifts with images of babies and kids. Also don't forget that the Jacksons raided the place before the police came, you can even see LaToya's so called manager in one of the pics. Wouldn't be surprised if the room was messy partly due to the family rummaging through his stuff.

 

[Big Apple2]

Oh, okay Smooth72, I guess I didn't notice that one.

In any event, it's hurtful, especially when you think how private Michael was. So, So, So Private!

It's also hurtful that Mother's side is trying to paint the picture that Michael could no longer do his thing, which in my opinion, is totally not true. Like I said above, talk like that just confirms the reports that had come out before Michael died. Shameful!

 

[Big Apple2]

My guess is he probably got all those baby stuff as gifts from fans. Fans just kept giving him that kind of gifts with images of babies and kids. Also don't forget that the Jacksons raided the place before the police came, you can even see LaToya's so called manager in one of the pics. Wouldn't be surprised if the room was messy partly due to the family rummaging through his stuff.

Oh I totally believe that.

In my opinion, they looked in every nook and cranny, hoping to find hidden treasure, that didn't belong to them. Remember that report that came out wherein LaToya and/or her man found something they said was "tar heroin," only to find out it was some very old pot. They had to be looking in the VERY BOTTOM of some old suitcase or duffle bag in order to find something like that, in my opinion.

Probably took everything that wasn't nailed down. Vultures!

The guy who wrote the book about the bogus MJ Tribute show said that LaToya's man stayed in Michael's crib for over a week. Now I'm thinking that LaToya NOR her man ever went to Michael's home when he was alive, but they were able to RANSACK his home once he died. Again, Shameful!

 

[Big Apple2]

I guess it's par for the course. Generally speaking, nobody is really talking about propofol or lawsuits. Today the big story is "MJ's Bedroom Baby Pictures." AGAIN, THANKS MOTHER!

 

[troubleman84]

You think if the "other side" cared enough about MJ, those pictures wouldn't be released? Meaning AEG's side. Clearly they didn't say anything about it. I just don't think either side has a strong case.

 

[Big Apple2]

You think if the "other side" cared enough about MJ, those pictures wouldn't be released? Meaning AEG's side. Clearly they didn't say anything about it. I just don't think either side has a strong case.

Didn't somebody say that Mr. Panish (Mother's side) is the one who posted those pictures on their website? I'm still trying to figure out WHY.

Also, come on now troubleman, we haven't even heard AEG's side yet, we're still be bored by Mother's side and the never ending "Smoking Gun" emails.

 

[troubleman84]

Didn't somebody say that Mr. Panish (Mother's side) is the one who posted those pictures on their website? I'm still trying to figure out WHY.

Also, come on now troubleman, we haven't even heard AEG's side yet, we're still be bored by Mother's side and the never ending "Smoking Gun" emails.

Possibly but no one's not telling who send the photos. Apparently the police released the photos. It's too hard to see if the other side has a case...not in the sense that they can or can't prove Murray was hired by Michael but that they would answer for the different answers from Phillips, Ortega and Payne...and Faye.

Still don't trust each side regardless so it's whatever. :mellow:

 

[ivy]

So would you (and others) say that Kenny, Karen, etcc were hired by AEG or Michael ???

I'm not sure about their contracts but who was paying them, Michael - at least 95%? so then yes Michael hired them. for example Karen said Michael called her and wanted her, there were emails not wanting Karen. How could you say she was hired by AEG when she's obviously Michael's choice?

Background checks : Murray was obviously not very successful doctor, as it relates to Michael's health, he was as suspicious as Klein IMO. So, background checks, maybe not right at the beginning, but after a while, yes, definitely, especially after 19th/20th events. Based on my opinion that Phillips, at least , had an idea of what Murray was doing.

I don't think background checks work like that. In USA you would need authorization from the people do run a background (criminal) check and a credit report also needs the persons authorization. Most of the time such checks will be done before the employment . I have never heard a 2 month employment background check. the only thing would be to let go of the person if they aren't performing up to standards.

 

[crillon]

Didn't somebody say that Mr. Panish (Mother's side) is the one who posted those pictures on their website? I'm still trying to figure out WHY.

Also, come on now troubleman, we haven't even heard AEG's side yet, we're still be bored by Mother's side and the never ending "Smoking Gun" emails.

You're right--the photos were posted on the website of Katherine's lawyers: http://www.psblaw.com/michael-jackson-trial-exhibits.html

 

[crillon]

[/B]

The Judge is IMO asleep at the wheel and that's one reason why it is a sprawling hot mess.

I agree that part of the issue is the judge who doesn't set boundaries on what can and cannot be admitted into evidence; the other reason is the nature of civil trials which have more leeway than criminal trials and can become a free-for-all, which is what we're seeing.

Sometimes I wonder if they are "losing" the jurors with this lengthy (and sometimes unnecessary) testimony. I can see how the plaintiff's side benefits from the side show of a protracted trial.

 

[Big Apple2]

Sometimes I wonder if they are "losing" the jurors with this lengthy (and sometimes unnecessary) testimony.

That, at times, DOES create a problem.

The last jury I sat on, was a medical malpractice case (6 week case). One side tended to DRONE on and on about non-issues and 2 people on the jury with me, would close their eyes, and appear to be sleeping. When the Judge would notice that, he would stop the proceedings and ask us to stand up for a few minutes. Sometimes he would call a break, when it wasn't even break time, because he could see the ENTIRE jury, and could see exactly who and/or who was not paying attention. He was a real character, but ran a TIGHT ship, to which I was very grateful.

 

[bouee]

I'm not sure about their contracts but who was paying them, Michael - at least 95%? so then yes Michael hired them. for example Karen said Michael called her and wanted her, there were emails not wanting Karen. How could you say she was hired by AEG when she's obviously Michael's choice?

- I THINK (not sure since we haven't seen their contracts) they had the line that Murray orginally had "perform the serviced requested by producer"

- they were reporting to AEG (at least Kenny was apprently )

- salary paid by AEG , then Michael would give 95% back to AEG.

To me , hiring is at least 50-50 AEG - Michael, if not AEG alone, on behalf of Michael.

as oppsed to personnal employees hired & paid directly by Michael, though he was using AEG's money to pay them. AEG had no direct contact whatsoever with these employees (no contract, no meeting) = 100% Michael.

EDIT : if one of those employees/indep contractor was not paid, who would they sue ?

 

[gerryevans]

- I THINK (not sure since we haven't seen their contracts) they had the line that Murray orginally had "perform the serviced requested by producer"

- they were reporting to AEG (at least Kenny was apprently )

- salary paid by AEG , then Michael would give 95% back to AEG.

To me , hiring is at least 50-50 AEG - Michael, if not AEG alone, on behalf of Michael.

as oppsed to personnal employees hired & paid directly by Michael, though he was using AEG's money to pay them. AEG had no direct contact whatsoever with these employees (no contract, no meeting) = 100% Michael.

EDIT : if one of those employees/indep contractor was not paid, who would they sue ?

MJ's personal physician is just another league entirely IMO. I just don't think any other employee or independent contractor is comparable. It's a situation unique unto itself. This person literally has a life or death position. There are actual legal considerations in a patient and doctor relationship that does not exist with others.

I have to admit putting the hiring question in the context of who would Kenny, etc. sue is excellent. I'd think they'd probably both be sued, so I see your 50-50 hiring with them. But it's just not the same with MJ's doctor IMO.

 

[bouee]

I have to admit putting the hiring question in the context of who would Kenny, etc. sue is excellent. I'd think they'd probably both be sued, so I see your 50-50 hiring with them. But it's just not the same with MJ's doctor IMO.

Thanks, but yes, the point is AEG should never have done an indep contracter contract to Murray, they should have made a cash advance, and let Michael deal with it. I think Trell said it was a mistake, or at least confirmed a cash advance could have been made.

So they did take an indep contractor standard "contract" and tried to make it "fit" to a personnal doctor. We don't know why yet, Phillips said he had nothing to do with this side of things. Maybe when Jorrie testifies ?

A bit unrealated, I'm reading PG's testimony from another website, and one of Panish's argument about the contract (Murray's contract) is that it was between AEG- Murray & Murray's company. He's saying Michael was not a party to it.
my interpretation : Michael had to sign it to make it valid (they added a 3rd signature) , but he was not a party to the contract. ???

 

[ivy]

To me , hiring is at least 50-50 AEG - Michael, if not AEG alone, on behalf of Michael.

as oppsed to personnal employees hired & paid directly by Michael, though he was using AEG's money to pay them. AEG had no direct contact whatsoever with these employees (no contract, no meeting) = 100% Michael.

EDIT : if one of those employees/indep contractor was not paid, who would they sue ?

interesting question. Karen Faye has been paid by AEG who then reimbursed by MJ Estate. So that's in line with AEG advancing money to Michael.

Michael Amir Williams has sued AEG for lost income but then he had to add Estate to his lawsuit.

So it would look like it's a combination of Michael and AEG hiring people. But it's important to remember that only Murray's contract required Michael's signature so it is kinda unique.

 

[TheChosenOne]

I know I am late with this and maybe someone else has brought this up. But I think that Michael wanting to have somewhere to call home was not because he could not afford one but because he felt that he had to abandon Neverland after the fiasco of 2005 and he and his family needed to find a space they could feel equally at home.

 

[AliCat]

It was possible for AEG Live to 'pull the plug.' Michael Jackson went home sick on Friday, June 19, 2009.

A meeting is held at his home, on Saturday, June 20, 2009, especially in light of Kenny Ortega's email.

Conrad Murray doesn't like Kenny Ortega because of the meeting and sending Michael Jackson home, as brought out in meeting at Michael Jackson's home, on Saturday, June 20, 2009.

Michael Jackson returns to work on Tuesday, June 23, 2009 and he doesn't have flu like symptoms. The Show goes on!

It is also interesting to note that it was around this time where more tickets had been allocated to the fan's because Production knew exactly how big the stage would be. Lot's of excitement, as fan's helped fan's buy the tickets. These were the reasonably priced tickets and not the auction type expensive tickets through Viagogo.

AEG Live and Kenny Ortega would have agreed to temporarily stop the Show's, if Michael had not improved by Tuesday, June 23, 2009. That's part of the reason for the meeting on June 20, 2009. It was a determination. Conrad Murray is one charismatic person, for his patient was dead by June 25, 2009. That and Conrad Murray was overconfident about his bedside manner. He spent too much time on his Cell phone and neglecting his patient, Michael Jackson!

 

[crillon]

The media had been calling Michael CRAZY for decades. Can you imagine how hurt, humiliated and angry he would have been at Phillips if he'd attempted to have him emotionally evaluated? I think pulling a move like that on Michael would have been disastrous and it wouldn't have saved his life at all.

I couldn't agree more. Suggesting a psych evaluation would have put Michael into a tailspin (for the reasons you mention) and instead of bolstering him and solving anything, it may have deflated him emotionally and impacted his ability to perform TII.

But, I also don't blame KO/Phillips for going down that road a bit and wondering whether or not it was needed. They had to think of all the possibiities to get him some help. As Ivy & others have pointed out, hindsight is 20/20, because we now know that would not have saved his life. Unless, of course, Michael divulged his sleep problems during such an evaluation (and the current solution) and a doctor with integrity stepped up to intercede with a sleep specialist referral. That scenario might have gotten Murray booted out. All just wishful thinking.

 

[Ashtanga]

Guys don't forget that Michael said he was messy. Plus he was packing so he could leave so nothing will be neat. Then, he had some crazy fans who love to give him gifts all the time, so you see a lot of bags around. Then he did not let people in due to thefts & we all know about what some of his staff did. He also was shopping for leaving, so you will see bags with things all over. I can tell you I have lots of brothers and they are that messy. It is just that they have mates who tidy up and keep things in order. This is not to say that all men are messy.

I don't think his room was this way because he was abandoned, but because he was engaged in a lot of ideas and creative projects which needed more attention than cleaning up. Plus the issues I reported above. I also think that when he died, Muarry was scrambling around looking for things and trying to hide things, so he scattered things around in his panic. I remember one of the security said Muarry told him to pick up a bottle. Now a bottle should not be on the floor so Muarry must have been in a panic searching around and inadvertently making things fall on the floor. So just looking at the photos does not tell the whole story.

In red > :fear:


Crazy fans? :scratch:I do not think so. :nono: Are just fans showing somehow the love for Michael. No problem with that.

Michael's fans ~ Love how Michael had this book compiled, I wonder if he did this on his other tours? ~ To commemorate the Dangerous Tour Michael had this album compiled of photos depicting “crowd reaction, him onstage, all his fans,” Miko Brando says. “It was for his personal library. Signs from fans cheering him on; kids, adults, families enjoying the show, stuff he couldn’t see onstage that he wanted to remember later on.

He also amassed mountains of fan letters, some of which were on view at the Michael Jackson Fan Fest in Las Vegas. “He saved all of it,” Brando says. “He looked at most of his fan mail. He’d write back to a lot of them. We have boxes in storage of letters, cutouts, paintings, drawings. xx

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...20499.116222408446161&type=1&relevant_count=1



Michael always won many gifts from fans all over the world over the years. And I'm sure he loved to receive these gifts and feel the love of the fans. Michael not disbanded of the gifts, he kept... and that's a good sign that he really loved receiving these gifts and save them. Michael loved and cared about their fans (unlike many other artists out there :fear:....) It was a very special relationship. :heart: I see nothing wrong with that. :fear:

 

[marebear]

That's so nice he kept all the things the fans sent him. He really did love us.

 

[Ashtanga]

That's so nice he kept all the things the fans sent him. He really did love us.

I do not know any other artist who has loved his fans as much as Michael did. :heart: He had a very special relationship with us. :girl_sigh: He loved us so much and knew how much we loved him (and we will love him forever). :wub:




*big sigh*

 

[troubleman84]

Heh, yeah Michael always had mad love for his fans.

 

[bouee]

interesting question. Karen Faye has been paid by AEG who then reimbursed by MJ Estate. So that's in line with AEG advancing money to Michael.

Michael Amir Williams has sued AEG for lost income but then he had to add Estate to his lawsuit.

So it would look like it's a combination of Michael and AEG hiring people. But it's important to remember that only Murray's contract required Michael's signature so it is kinda unique.

I'm not sure MAW's example works here : he was a personnal employee, paid by Michael. MAW was never hired or paid by AEG, was he ?
I have not followed his lawsuit against AEG but if he sued for lost income ,it's not the same as suing for unpaid salary.

 

[Petrarose]

Oh I totally believe that.

In my opinion, they looked in every nook and cranny, hoping to find hidden treasure, that didn't belong to them. Remember that report that came out wherein LaToya and/or her man found something they said was "tar heroin," only to find out it was some very old pot. They had to be looking in the VERY BOTTOM of some old suitcase or duffle bag in order to find something like that, in my opinion.

Probably took everything that wasn't nailed down. Vultures!

The guy who wrote the book about the bogus MJ Tribute show said that LaToya's man stayed in Michael's crib for over a week. Now I'm thinking that LaToya NOR her man ever went to Michael's home when he was alive, but they were able to RANSACK his home once he died. Again, Shameful!

True. The rotting pot I think was found in the back of a kitchen cupboard. We speculated that it was even there before Michael rented due to it being rotted.

This is the most I got from the expert today: He made a lot of money from this case, since Katherine paid him and AEG had to pay him for his deposition. I did not even know you could get money for a deposition. I thought once a side needed you as a witness and you gave them a deposition, the other side could sit in and question you for free. Well I learn something new in this case, finally.

The next thing I learned was: Berman responded, "I believe that it's highly inappropriate. It is highly unusual."
Berman retired from the music industry in 2001 to become an expert witness for music industry-related lawsuits. He said he had never heard of a situation in which a tour promoter hired a doctor on behalf of an artist.

Ok so it is highly inappropriate but is it illegal? NO.