Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[qbee]

according to CNN video they compared TII Billie Jean to 30th anniversary Billie Jean. In 30th anniversary show Michael is doing fast multiple 360 spins at one point. I checked 92 Dangerous Rehearsal video, he's not doing fast multiple spins on that rehearsal either.

92 Rehearsal

TII

30th anniversary

[video=youtube_share;OU5pKS-roVk]http://youtu.be/OU5pKS-

I agree - It was not a fair comparison by Jacksons attorneys. They should compare MJ's 2009 rehearsal to another rehearsal not to a full blown performance. As we can see MJ didn't go full out on his dangerous tour rehearsal either.

 

[ivy]

Reportedly when asked AEG lawyer Putnam said they did not start their main defense yet

------------------------------------

William J. Wagener
11 hours ago
Friday, 14 June 2013
Los Angeles, Ca.
111 So. Hill St.,

Katherine is in 2nd seat from isle, front right row, young black woman "family" member with her. & Trent in seat behind her, another body guard in hall

WITNESS: Randy Philllips,

Court opened with a brief skirmish about the nasty comments
RANDY PHILLIPS, CEO of A. E. G. Live supposedly said about Kathernine
JACKSON, called her the "b" word just days ago in the POLO Lounge in Beverly Hills where Randy is spending his nights in an top notch Hotel.

Then Panish continued to question Randy Memory. And conflicting statements. 110 times Pannish recalled to PHILLIPS that he had answered
"I don't recall" during his deposition, back in Dec 2012, but 50+ times he said something else . I am beginning to wonder if Mr. Pannish has something better from the Dileo Emails. I peeked in 3rd floor court room. Looks like
Pannish is losing the "captured awe" of half the Jurors.

CEO Randy Phillips is explaining his memory is improving as he is refreshed more and more by Mr Putnam. and others. And that DOES sound believable, at least in part, and the Jury is moving toward sympathy for Randy at least the back row of the jury. The black juror man in the front row seems unmoved.

If this is the best, We can get out of Pannish in his case in chief.... then
I am worried. Even with video and email of Randy stating "WE HIRED Dr. Murray?".... as Mr. PUtnam told me yesterday.... "WE [ A. E. G. } live has not started its "Case in Chief" defense, yet.... Y E T.... They are just fending off
Jackson attorney attacks. And everyone knows, except the Jury, that MJ was searching for a doctor who would administer Propofol, and Randy already said, he did NOT know what Propofol was until after MJ died. Whether the JURY believes that or will remember THAT when the finally deliberate months from now.... that Randy 20 second later, yesterday then said, even though it was used on me in a Colonospectipy. Does he not ask the doctor what they used to put him under?

BAck to court room OVERFLOW to watch Randy squirm... less.

---------------------------------------------------------

Note : Let me add that I in no way think William Wagener is credible - he had many legal misinformation before. This was just interesting coming from Jackson supporter and he had a quote from AEG lawyer. I would still recommend to take it with a grain of salt.

 

[ivy]

double post

 

[bouee]

I see your point--but did Tim Wooley give that directive to Murray? At the end of the day, Murray had the Hippocratic Oath to honor above all else. So, even if AEG was trying to influence him in a more nefarious way than just making sure he was well enough to attend rehearsals--Murray still had an obligation to "do no harm" to his patient.

Tim Wooley was relaying something someone told him I suppose. So "someone" must have told Murray, unless Tim Wooley had a lot of imagination. Anyway, it's logical with the description of june 20th meeting, since one part of the meeting was about Michael not attending rehearsals, and Murray was included, to find out why.
Again, everybody will agree that Murray took an oath and was expected to respect it. The judge ruled that AEG was not responsible for Murray's medical actions. That would be AEG's actions (inde contractor = AEG paid his salary) + asking Murray to get Michael to rehearsals, inother words improperly supervising the doctor.
If it was that easy for AEG to blame Murray, they would, that's the easiest defense.

I am a little confused. How can you compare a performance done in 2001 or earlier to a rehearsal in 2009? Michael would hold back in rehearsals and give it his all in a performance. The constant talk about 360 spins. I don't think Michael would be doing them the whole concert. I have no dancing experience. He didn't do the moonwalk in Billie Jean in the footage but I knew he could do it.

They're trying to discredit/downplay Hougdahl's email, because that e mail is damaging for AEG. So both sides use pointless examples of Michael's 360 spins. The problem is the 360 spins is just an example, Hougdahl's point was Michael had been deteriorating for 8 weeks.
If they really could discredit Hougdahl, they would use 360 spins from april, compared to 360 spins on june 18th for ex.
IMo, it was useless talk from both sides.
Here is Hougdahl's email :

My laymen's degree tells me he needs a shrink to get him mentally prepared to get on stage and then a trained to get him in physical shape... (Kobe's should be available) I have watched him deteriorated in front of my eyes over the last 8 weeks. He was able to do multiple 360 spins back in April. He'd fall on his ass if he tried it now."

There must have been some truth to it, since Phillips was looking for a physical therapist on june 22nd.

I agree. This was a rehearsal and not a full-out performance. Besides, what does this have to do with the central question of the trial--who hired Murray?

It is relevant IMO : it relates to Michael's health under the care of Murray, and AEG going ahead with the hiring process, as if everything was fine. That would have been a good time for background checks for example, among other things

What was the photo supposed to prove today? Is it that they saw him thin and did nothing? How many times was Randy supposed to see Michael with only his undershirt on? Sometimes I think Panish uses exhibits for the shock effect, because what does this photo have to do with negligent hiring. Maybe he is trying to say AEG missed the red flags and hired muarry who did this to Michael. However, Panish must know that the coroner was on the stand saying the weight did not kill him, that he was not underweight, and that there were no signs that he was malnourished.

I think it was just to see Phillip's reaction to the picture. Especially if what TMZ said is true (that Phillips had trouble explaining it) . What he says about Michael on 20th doesn't make sense, if he was still cold on 23rd and 24th (Karen + Sankey+Travis) and repeating stuff on 23rd (Karen). And we know he had this weird hot/cold symptom on 21st and called nurse Lee.
So was Michael miraculously better for the meeting ? It doesn't make sense. We'll see what Ortega, Kai Chase and possibly other people have to say about that.

I don't understand this type of thinking^^ Can you tell me how many workers are not Financially Dependent on their bosses? If I don't get paid I can't live, basically. I am "completely" dependent on One Source of Income for food, shelter, clothing, and all the extras. Michael's is not "completely" dependent on AEG, because he gets part of his money from non-AEG sources, like royalties. Even if you dismiss the non-AEG money, he, just like me, is dependent on who gives him that money. It could be fans buying his music, whatever, but it all hinges on the fact that his money comes from another.

I don't necessarily share that point of view , but I can understand why it is raised. A few examples : you have Pg's mail "once we go on sale, he's locked", adding 19 shows without formal approval, letting production costs go over the limit without formal approval, no insurance . It can sound like AEG was using Michael's financial situation, assuming he HAD to tour again, to "force him" & control him" , for ex using that anticipatory breach argument, the "intervention" and "pulling the plug" threat.
This is actually what Phiilips wrote to Ortega :

Cont'd: You cannot imagine the harm and ramifications of stopping this show now. It would far outweigh "calling this game in the 7th inning". I'm not just talking about AEG's interests here, but the myriad of stuff/lawsuits swirling around MJ that I crisis manage every day and also his well-being. I am meeting with him today at 4p at the Forum. Please stay steady. Enough alarms have sounded. It is time to out out the fire, not burning the building down. Sorry for all the analogies. Randy (ABC7)

EDIT :
translated into "our" world : it would be an employer /partner using an employee's / partner's debts to force extra time , or a certain type of work. Normally an employer can not do that, but AEG was using some of Michael's assets as a guarantee (originally with Michael's consent), that's the difference.

Sp Phillips has finished testifying (for now, I'm sure he'll be called back when AEG presents their case). I wonder who's gonna be next on Monday?

I don't think AEG should call him back. He's been a disaster for AEG on the stand. The more he talks, the more he incriminates himself and AEG. He's been Jacksons' strongest witness so far, IMO.

 

[Tygger]

From Bouee's email thread:

Email on 6/19/09 from John Hougdahl to Randy Phillips, Response from Hougdahl to Phillips, about needing trainer/therapist: My laymen's degree tells me he needs a shrink to get him mentally prepared to get on stage and then a trained to get him in physical shape... (Kobe's should be available) I have watched him deteriorated in front of my eyes over the last 8 weeks. He was able to do multiple 360 spins back in April. He'd fall on his ass if he tried it now."

John Houghdahl was the stage manager of "This Is It" tour.
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/129509-AEG-Lawsuit-E-mails-(-Read-only-no-discussion-)

The evidence Panish showed was excellent. Many fans and non-fans are not aware that Michael's multiple 360 degree spins is his true trademark (and part of his artistic legacy). Those spins were done since he was a teenager. Phillips and the defendants' lawyers are obviously not aware of Michael's trademark spins and tried to make jurors and others believe that one turn was enough and ridiculously showed the rehearsal of Billie Jean as evidence. Houghdahl obviously knew one turn was not what Michael was known for and I am very appreciative that Panish clarified Phillips and the defendants' lawyers' error.

I was also appreciative that Panish corrected Phillips' about how many managers Michael had and how often they changed. Philliips' changing socks analogy was actually quite rude considering he was talking about a force.

Serendipity, many people may not like who they are working for but, if they are to succeed, they learn not to burn bridges as they say. The Jackson brothers would gain nothing by not doing the AEG promoted/produced BET Experience. Janet Jackson would gain nothing by not performing in AEG owned arenas.

I don't think AEG should call him back. He's been a disaster for AEG on the stand. The more he talks, the more he incriminates himself and AEG. He's been Jacksons' strongest witness so far, IMO.

Agreed!

 

[Mechi]

^^

This issue was discussed in court filings. People are kinda financially dependent on their work, to the banks that give them mortgage etc.. for example most people don't have the money to buy a let's say $200,000 house, they go to a bank and get a loan, and then they get a job and with their salaries they pay for the house and the food and so on...

However people also have a choice.. they can leave their jobs, find a new one, sell their houses and go live in an apartment and even go bankrupt..

the same applies to Michael. Yes he might had debts, yes he might have needed TII income to pay his debts but he wasn't (for the lack of a better word) slave to that. He had choices - like every other person. For example he could have cancelled TII and go on tour with Live nation or do movies or he could have sold Sony/ATV catalog, pay all of his debts and could have lived with the royalties he received from his own catalog Mijac or even go bankrupt.

This is why the judge did not agree with the "financially dependent" argument , she believed Michael Jackson - the greatest entertainer - had status and experience and choices.

Furthermore financial relationship does not require a duty of care. For example a bank might give you money for your mortgage / to buy a house but they have no duty to make sure that the house is safe.

Yep and we can also just agree to disagree!

I'll try one last time to make my opinion on this clear!

1) I do disagree with the judges decision also!
Michael was dependent, very much so... well TO ME. To make clearer why I think so I gave an example of the opposite some posts ago. Paul McCartney or JayZ preparing a concert tour might make clear why I think not everybody is the same dependent in this world?! well it's my last try. But I (probably not everybody!!!) think it created pressure on Michael to be that dependent cuz it has not been always like that for him before! Not saying Michael had no part in it himself. Still I think AEGlive used his situation to get their foot in the door and created this way even more dependency/pressure. Well in this trial it was judged irrelevant so let's just agree to disagree! we can easily just live on doing so!

2) I do not think you can compare Michael Jackson, the most famous person in the world (he is at least to me), pretty much living on stage like that with the average Joe or a 'worker'.
A picture: It's to most ppl in this world a difference if they take a fall on stage or in row 552 in the back of the stadium!
Michaels bankruptcy would be noticed and judged by billions of billions of ppl. Yours (everybody who's reading here) wouldn't interest even a handful probably. So I think that is a different feeling and Michael lived under much more pressure than average Joe ever could!

3) Thinking Michael had a choice to just go to Live Nation and then there get also money in advance (which would have been even more then than AEGlive already gave) is wishfull thinking to me. That 'choice' is a nice illusion to me... but not coming close to reality well TO ME. If Michael would have backed out of TII... he would have been 'dust' in showbusiness plus everybody would have thought he made 'dust' out of himself. But well maybe that's again only my reality. Reality is subjective somehow always.

4) I am not thinking Michael didn't 'create' this pressure on himself also. But I do think AEGlive used his situation for their advantage. That's very usual in business... yep... still TO ME it's not ok! I know many think different and that is the world we're living in lol well I'm living in this world also... still I do think it is not ok!

 

[LastTear]

I would have to read back but I thought Phillips had already said Michael was thin, so I don't get the point in using that picture, Michael looks thin in it but he looks happy with his big smile.

I wonder how many rehearsals there were in total and how many Michael was lion whipped into taking part in, as per TMZ's circus comments.

I read statements from Jacksons lawyer and it really makes my blood boil, I hate people who are guilty of certain actions but deflect there actions onto the opposite side, it's sneaky and snake like.

So............. Anything on the hiring of Murray yet?

 

[jamba]

So Jacksons took the 'high road'?? What about the leaked emails about MJ locked in the hotel room and drunk?? That was months ago. What about all the leaks to the tabloids--neverending?? IMO Jackson lawyers have in no way taken the high road--they've taken the lowest possible road imaginable here. There have been so many negativ consequences of their lack of a case and instead using smear tactics and focusing the whole case on emails from AEG. How is that a case if there is no other evidence except taking phrases and words in emails out of context? Out of thousands of emails as well.

As far as Bugzbee comments re decline in MJ over 8 weeks--someone made a good observation IMO: Why didn't he speak up before if he spent 8 weeks watching this decline??? So he sat there in silence for 8 weeks watching a downhill spiral--what kind of stage manager does that??

People said things in emails that were not meant to be taken literally, and the whole trial is based on this--going over remarks that were spontaneous, written under stress or maybe even thrown off in the moment and now poured over with a microcope by a bunch of lawyers looking for a huge payoff. And THIS is the HIGH ROAD????

 

[jamba]

We are at a disadvantage since the trial is not televised, but I think Phillips did a good job. I wish I could have seen the exchanges between him and Panish--it seems they really sparred and that would be fun to see Panish get confronted and stood up to. I felt more sympathetic to him after hearing what he had to say about getting MJ dressed and out of the hotel room. It was kind of comical how here you have this exec--who just wants to accomplish the end result--and MJ who has his emotions, his concerns, and when it came to the armband situation I really felt I could see both sides--MJ wanting to get the armband on, Phillips wanting to forget about it entirely, and the hotel engineer being called to fasten it!!

I liked Phillips for his jokes and his fiestiness and I think the jury did at least to some extent as apparently they laughed at his jokes.

As far as not knowing he was given propofol during the colonoscopy, to me that it totally believable b/c the same thing happened to me. I actually had 2 of them before I realized I was given propofol. I think most people 99.9% did not know what propofol was until MJ died and never gave it a thought, even if they had had colonoscopies.

 

[bouee]

As far as Bugzbee comments re decline in MJ over 8 weeks--someone made a good observation IMO: Why didn't he speak up before if he spent 8 weeks watching this decline??? So he sat there in silence for 8 weeks watching a downhill spiral--what kind of stage manager does that??

I think we need to wait for him to testify. He was probably talking to Ortega or assuming people knew (his email on june 15th, only 4 days before about the Wisconsin thing, was just about the weight), or at least explain what he meant by "deteriorate".
He was asked by Kenny to send the first e mail, then he was answering Phillips questions. It looks like Phillips didn't really trust Ortega, or simply wanted to double check.

“Paul/Randy I'm not bring a drama queen here. Kenny asked me to notify you both MJ was sent home without stepping foot on stage

Email on 6/19/09 from John Hougdahl to Randy Phillips, Response from Hougdahl to Phillips, about needing trainer/therapist: My laymen's degree tells me he needs a shrink to get him mentally prepared to get on stage and then a trained to get him in physical shape... (Kobe's should be available) I have watched him deteriorated in front of my eyes over the last 8 weeks. He was able to do multiple 360 spins back in April. He'd fall on his ass if he tried it now."
John Houghdahl was the stage manager of "This Is It" tour.

Response from Phillips on Jun 20: Bugzee, I know because I just got Kenny's message on my voicemail.What did he do when he got there and what happened between him and KO? I have a meeting with MJ tomorrow morning. (ABC7)

From Hougdahl (Bugzee)to Phillips, cc'd Gongaware: MJ came out and watched all the pyro demonstration and endorsed the all the effects then went into his room and asked Kenny "you aren't going to kill the artist, are you?" We assumed this was reference to pyro, but Kenny said he was shaking and couldn't hold his knife and fork. Kenny had to cut his food for him before he could eat, and then had to use his fingers. I don't know how much embellishment there is to this, but (Kenny) said repeatedly that MJ was in no shape to go on stage. He kept going on and on how no one was taking responsibility for "getting him ready". We might be getting beyond ... damage control, here. (ABC7)

People said things in emails that were not meant to be taken literally, and the whole trial is based on this--going over remarks that were spontaneous, written under stress or maybe even thrown off in the moment and now poured over with a microcope by a bunch of lawyers looking for a huge payoff. And THIS is the HIGH ROAD????

Yes, so it should be easy to explain those e mails, and have a coherent version of the events.

 

[bouee]

I don't know if the jury likes Phillips or not. Maybe they don't like Panish, sometimes I get irritated myself by BOTH lawyers. But whether you like people or not, or like their sense of humor or not, will not change the fact that when you connect the dots, Gongaware's version is a blur, a huge memory loss, and Phillips's is not coherent. He is contradicting himself a lot, and his version is not logical & doesn't make sense IMO, even after the cross by Putnam. And his cross was very short.

 

[bouee]

There's s something that's not clear about the insurance thing. Phillips said it was on Tohme to find an insurance contract.
When you look at the emails, AEG started to look for one before the AEG-Michael contract was signed, which is logical, then Gongaware still has some correspondance with Bob Taylor in february, then nothing - that we know of- until end of april, then end of May, after Tohme was out of the picture.
So Gongaware was still involved with the insurance in february, at the same time as Tohme was supposedly looking for a contract ?

 

[ivy]

In my opinion Phillips was way way better on the witness stand than Gongaware. Although it's acceptable to say "don't know / don't remember" Gongaware used it way to much and it might have looked like he did not care or he intentionally withhold information. Phillips on the other hand were volunteering information and even had witty comebacks.

For example Bugzee mentions "multiple 360 spins", AEG shows "single 360 spins", Jacksons come with 30th anniversary show which has "multiple 360 spins" to debunk AEG's single spins. They show it and ask a question : Panish then asked Phillips if he saw Jackson perform consecutive spins in 2009. “Considering the movie is a rehearsal and that’s a full-on performance at Madison Square Garden…no,” he said. That's an effective answer from AEG's perspective. He did not let Jackson lawyers argument to stand.

Also Panish's questioning of Phillips got too long and had been mostly about nitpicking. He tried to impeach Phillips to pain him as a liar but impeachment only works if you can confuse the witness. Phillips's "I'm saying the same thing in different ways" or "my memory is getting better as we discuss stuff / as we prepare" shows he was standing his ground.

Also yesterday Phillips said “We’re parsing words,” Phillips said. “It’s all we’ve been doing.”. He was on the stand for 8 days, if the jury also believed Jackson attorneys questioning became too long and became nitpicking on small stuff, Phillips earned points with them. Jurors do not like long trials much, they are away from their work, their incomes might be significantly reduced.

Panish also did the thing that annoys me.. apparently he had been showing 10 second clip from Skynews in which Phillips said "we hired Murray", yesterday AEG showed a longer version of it in which Phillips said he was Michael's doctor or Michael wanted him. That feels like Jackson lawyer was trying to trick the jury to think AEG hired Murray. The longer video however is saying what AEG have been saying - even though you think Murray was hired it was because Michael wanted him - hence Michael hired him argument.

Now that Phillips is excused, I wonder is it over for the "smoking gun" emails? The only smoking gun email I saw was Gongaware's email of "We want to remind Murray that AEG is paying his salary".

 

[bouee]

^^ "Not preparing" for a deposition is not very respectful of juror's times either... and a convenient way to re arrange the story once everyone is deposed.
It's a pity that the story he comes up with doesn't even make sense.

 

[LastTear]

Panish also did the thing that annoys me.. apparently he had been showing 10 second clip from Skynews in which Phillips said "we hired Murray", yesterday AEG showed a longer version of it in which Phillips said he was Michael's doctor or Michael wanted him. That feels like Jackson lawyer was trying to trick the jury to think AEG hired Murray. The longer video however is saying what AEG have been saying - even though you think Murray was hired it was because Michael wanted him - hence Michael hired him argument.

Now that Phillips is excused, I wonder is it over for the "smoking gun" emails? The only smoking gun email I saw was Gongaware's email of "We want to remind Murray that AEG is paying his salary".

Seeing how Panish is I'm surprised he didn't use the YouTube version of that Sky news interview.

On the same vein, I hate how they used rehearsal footage verses performance footage.

 

[ivy]

150 + crime scene photos at the link - http://www.tmz.com/2013/06/15/michael-jackson-death-photo-scene-gallery/

 

[LastTear]

^^^^^

Why have all these been put on the lawyers website? For what purpose?

I just want to get on with celebrating and enjoying this extraordinary man, enough already!

 

[AliCat]

Michael Jackson never, ever denied he was messy.

The different medications have all been discussed and what their applications are. Nothing out of the ordinary there either.

The pictures of children and the doll, Michael Jackson admitted to this while still alive, he loved children's innocence, to remind him to be the same, stay innocent.

Don't use violence against children, till the day he died, bless you, Michael Jackson.

We see an empty plate of food, so it's obvious he ate and drank.

That house was so beautiful and beautifully furnished. All the detailing of the lamps, the toilets, the fixtures, exquisite decorating!

 

[Rhilo]

Ugh. I can't thank Katherine Jackson, her lawyers and cubs enough for this mess. Not. :no:

 

[ivy]

Future plans and mention of Branca in the notes

and another song list

 

[crillon]

Ugh. I can't thank Katherine Jackson, her lawyers and cubs enough for this mess. Not. :no:

Many fans like to blame AEG for this kind of exposure, but in my opinion Katherine and her lawyers knew the potential consequences to Michael's legacy and to his childrens' emotional state when they pursued this lawsuit. Yet, the money was more important and it became the priority with the kids and Michael taking second place.

 

[Aquarius]

Who gave the pics to TMZ? On the pic 148 there's a man whose face is back to the cameras but looks like Latoya's friend, can't remember his name. Is he Latoya's friend?

 

[crillon]

Tim Wooley was relaying something someone told him I suppose. So "someone" must have told Murray, unless Tim Wooley had a lot of imagination. Anyway, it's logical with the description of june 20th meeting, since one part of the meeting was about Michael not attending rehearsals, and Murray was included, to find out why.
Again, everybody will agree that Murray took an oath and was expected to respect it. The judge ruled that AEG was not responsible for Murray's medical actions. That would be AEG's actions (inde contractor = AEG paid his salary) + asking Murray to get Michael to rehearsals, inother words improperly supervising the doctor.
If it was that easy for AEG to blame Murray, they would, that's the easiest defense.

Do you have a link to what you're referencing re/Tim Wooley? Was this during Trell's testimony?

It is relevant IMO : it relates to Michael's health under the care of Murray, and AEG going ahead with the hiring process, as if everything was fine. That would have been a good time for background checks for example, among other things

To me, it sounds like you're presuming that being thin is a "health issue" and that AEG was in a "hiring process." You have only to look at the autopsy results to find how Michael's weight and overall health was characterized by the coroner--he was considered "healthy". Kenny et al were worried about Michael's health only when he showed flu symptoms (the likely side effects from propofol). KO & Phillips testified that they were concerned about the amount of weight he was losing because they knew he typically lost 2-4 lbs. everytime he performed & they thought he wasn't eating enough--not that he was sick.

Murray was not being "hired" (even though we're using that term routinely) which implies an employer/employee relationship, but in a negotiation for contract work. I think both Trell and Gongaware testified that AEG does not do background checks for non-employees, so regardless of whether or not Murray got a signed contract (which he did not), a background check would not be a part of that process anyway, acc to AEG's HR policies.

 

[Tygger]

For example Bugzee mentions "multiple 360 spins", AEG shows "single 360 spins", Jacksons come with 30th anniversary show which has "multiple 360 spins" to debunk AEG's single spins. They show it and ask a question : Panish then asked Phillips if he saw Jackson perform consecutive spins in 2009. “Considering the movie is a rehearsal and that’s a full-on performance at Madison Square Garden…no,” he said. That's an effective answer from AEG's perspective. He did not let Jackson lawyers argument to stand.

Actually Hougdahl is talking about what I posted. His email states he saw Michael do multiple 360 spins in April. Phillips testified to seeing single spins in rehearsal as compared to the full-on performance Panish showed. Clearly two different things that Phillips and the defense tried to deflect from the meaning of Hougdahl's spin description in his email. Now that the jury (and some fans) knows what multiple 360 spins that Michael has done for decades looks like, they will understand Hougdahl's email and his future testimony better.

I don't know if the jury likes Phillips or not. Maybe they don't like Panish, sometimes I get irritated myself by BOTH lawyers. But whether you like people or not, or like their sense of humor or not, will not change the fact that when you connect the dots, Gongaware's version is a blur, a huge memory loss, and Phillips's is not coherent. He is contradicting himself a lot, and his version is not logical & doesn't make sense IMO, even after the cross by Putnam. And his cross was very short.

Agreed. The personalities and the likability of the lawyers and witnesses should not overshadow testimonies and evidence. If they do, a person allows themselves to be misguided away from the purpose of the trial. Phillips, a professional schmoozer, may seem likable but, his testimony had more holes than a slice of Swiss cheese. I cannot focus on how entertaining Phillips may have been to some (I did not find him entertaining in the least); I can only focus on his imaginative testimony.

 

[WhoIsIt89]

according to CNN video they compared TII Billie Jean to 30th anniversary Billie Jean. In 30th anniversary show Michael is doing fast multiple 360 spins at one point. I checked 92 Dangerous Rehearsal video, he's not doing fast multiple spins on that rehearsal either.

92 Rehearsal

TII

30th anniversary

[video=youtube_share;OU5pKS-roVk]http://youtu.be/OU5pKS-


Looked like shit in that picture they showed. Red flags all day. Common sense win this case. Like the Jackson or not AEG is liable to some degree. IMO

Whatever Michael looked like in that picture, "shit" is not one of them. A little underweight? Yes, a little. Sickly? No, I don't see it. Unhealthy? I don't think so, not at that point in the day anyway. Shit? Hell no.

And I find it funny that Panish is using the 30th Anniversary Billie Jean in comparison to the TII rehearsal. Isn't it widely believed that Michael was under the influence of pain meds during the 30th Anniversary concert? And boy, look at that man dance. Does the jury not know this? Because if they did that would throw the Jacksons case down the toilet. If he can dance like that under the influence of pain medication, then whatever was being done to Michael by Murray, under the nose of AEG shouldn't have affected him all that much when it came to performing.

 

[ivy]

Who gave the pics to TMZ? On the pic 148 there's a man whose face is back to the cameras but looks like Latoya's friend, can't remember his name. Is he Latoya's friend?

These pictures were introduced to evidence in the very first week. Given that TMZ has 150 of them - more than posted on the Jackson lawyers website - it's safe to assume that TMZ got them from the court clerks office. Don't forget : once in evidence, it becomes public records that anyone can get. So no need to "give" or "sell" .

And yeah that is Jeffre

Agreed. The personalities and the likability of the lawyers and witnesses should not overshadow testimonies and evidence.

Remember the jury instructions I posted how it say jurors can choose to believe or not believe parts or all of a certain testimony? That actually brings in the personality and perceptions of the jurors about the witnesses.

some interesting jury comments from a jury consulting firm


Get it Together: The number one thing jurors want to see in attorneys at trial is that you are prepared and organized.

“[Defense counsel] was very organized. He seemed to always know where to pull the right paper from, how to counter a lot of plaintiffs’ remarks, and always seemed to have a point to every question he asked, unlike the plaintiffs.”

“They had their plan of attack laid out. They were organized and methodical, not searching around for papers or fumbling around. And they were very polite.”

“When the attorneys weren’t prepared, it came across as: ‘I can’t quite figure this out. I’m not sure what I should be doing here.’ This makes them come across as a bit incompetent. I think this causes jurors to focus more on things that are of little to no importance at all.”

The Parties Can Take the Case Personally, But You Cannot: In a trial, everyone has a role to play and jurors do not like it when the roles get confused. As fierce advocates for their clients, jurors appreciate attorneys expressing passion for their client, as long as it does not cross the line. That cuts your credibility and allows jurors to draw unfavorable conclusions about you and your case.

“One of the attorneys seemed quite angry about something or someone, but I couldn’t tell what it was. We all wondered about that during deliberations, too. Some ruling probably went against her or something.”

“The plaintiff’s attorney got emotional and we also could tell that she was very angry. The defendant’s attorney was confident and just spoke the facts. As a juror or as an attorney, emotions should not come into play.”

“One of the witnesses made an excellent point and the attorney unfortunately didn’t like it or agree with it and how he handled it damaged his credibility tremendously. Rather than countering it calmly or waiting for another witness to explain it away, he got a bit emotional and made a bit of a fool of himself.”

“He seemed to take things very personal and usually raised his voice and pointed his finger at witnesses when things weren’t going as planned.”

Don’t Waste Our Time: Jurors have put their lives on hold to hear your case, sometimes at great detriment to their careers, income and/or families.

“Always in the back of the [attorney’s] mind there should be this sense that you're arguing a case against time, because 14 people have effectively put their lives on hold to listen to it, so every part of that argument should be deemed essential to the case, otherwise you’re wasting the jurors’ time.”

“I thought the credentialing part done at the beginning of the [expert] witnesses was really long. It about killed us. It was like, enough already, we get that you are smart, move on.”

“The attorney was great, he gave us the facts and substantiated what we needed to know. He didn’t waste our time and drag it out.”

“The plaintiff attorneys were always missing exhibits and spending time during questioning looking for things.”

Be Nice to Everyone: Trials are adversarial, jurors get that. But few (healthy) people enjoy watching rudeness or conflict. Attorneys get lots of bonus points from jurors when they treat each other and witnesses politely and with respect.

“He lost credibility when he was badgering the witnesses and forcing them to answer hypothetical questions, trying to get them to say what he wanted them to say and not really trying to get them to give the truth and explain what happened. He was forcing a yes or no answer when that wasn’t appropriate for some of the things he was asking them.

"During trial, he slouched in his chair and half the time he wouldn’t even get up when talking with witnesses. Sometimes he didn’t even look at the witnesses."

“They never went after the plaintiff in terms of credibility or character which was a great move on their part. I’m not saying the opportunity wasn’t there for them to do that, but I’m glad they didn’t because it could have backfired on them.”

It’s Not All About You: As evident in the quotes above, jurors form some strong opinions about attorneys during a trial but they also try hard to separate out their impressions from their verdicts. That is, they try. More often than not, the attorneys jurors like the best wins because that is the attorney who best presented the case and taught jurors what they needed to know without distracting them by emotions, trivia or gimmicks.

 

[Tygger]

Ivy, Phillips' is an extremely successful schmoozer so it is not a surprise jurors and others may be taken with him and somewhat entertained. It does not change the fact that many parts of his testimony did not match his deposition by any stretch of the imagination. We shall see if the jurors found him more entertaining than trustworthy.

 

[bouee]

Do you have a link to what you're referencing re/Tim Wooley? Was this during Trell's testimony?

It's a email by Timm Wooley, from Trell's testimony, Wooley has not testified yet :

Email on 6/23/09 from Timm Wooley to Bob Taylor (insurance broker): Kenny Ortega has responsibility only for the show content and structure Randy Phillips and Dr. Murray are responsible for MJ rehearsal and attendance schedule. Looks like there might have been an issue in KO either not being demanding enough.


"Timm Wooley's statement is inaccurate, in my opinion," Trell said, but agreed he never spoke with Wooley about it, never saw it before. "Meaning MJ showed up whenever MJ wanted to," Trell opined.

To me, it sounds like you're presuming that being thin is a "health issue" and that AEG was in a "hiring process." You have only to look at the autopsy results to find how Michael's weight and overall health was characterized by the coroner--he was considered "healthy". Kenny et al were worried about Michael's health only when he showed flu symptoms (the likely side effects from propofol). KO & Phillips testified that they were concerned about the amount of weight he was losing because they knew he typically lost 2-4 lbs. everytime he performed & they thought he wasn't eating enough--not that he was sick.

Murray was not being "hired" (even though we're using that term routinely) which implies an employer/employee relationship, but in a negotiation for contract work. I think both Trell and Gongaware testified that AEG does not do background checks for non-employees, so regardless of whether or not Murray got a signed contract (which he did not), a background check would not be a part of that process anyway, acc to AEG's HR policies.

re health issue : is it normal to be cold, rambling , repeating stuff , not being able to use a knife and fork to eat, be reapeating stuff, etcc..? It comes from Karen, Sankey, Travis, Ortega , Hougdahl, Phillps acknowledeges the info. You can call it the flu , side effect of propofol, benzos, we'll never know what it was. That's what i call a health issue.
The weight was an issue for all professionals dancers, and other professionals. I don't think it was only a question of dehydration , it was also a question of strength to do so many shows.
Edit : some people say they were worried before that (alif sankey at the end of May/ june 15th, Hougdahl's 8 weeks e mail)

Murray was hired (or not) as an independant contractor , not as an employee, that is already cleared up. Didn't Jorrie recommended background checks on Tohme ? So they DO background checks when they think they need to.
What I'm saying is that Phillips had enough info to suspect Murray and he proabably did, and did not need any background checks IMO.
So from that point on, he could have done a number of things , like stop the hiring process, or put it on hold, run background checks... A lot of things, but certainly not naming Murray "responsible for Michael's rehearsal's appearance" . I think he used Murray to "calm down" Ortega and get Michael to rehearse.

 

[bouee]

Ivy, Phillips' is an extremely successful schmoozer so it is not a surprise jurors and others may be taken with him and somewhat entertained. It does not change the fact that many parts of his testimony did not match his deposition by any stretch of the imagination. We shall see if the jurors found him more entertaining than trustworthy.

And sometimes his own testimony doesn't even match his own testimony. Or doesn't make sense.

 

[Tygger]

And sometimes his own testimony doesn't even match his own testimony. Or doesn't make sense.

Exactly. His version of the O2 announcement told on the direct did NOT include the slap. Did the juroros notice this; we did not know. Did he forget he slapped Michael's butt, did he forget his own email included the slap, or did he conveniently remove it from this new version?