Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Big Apple2]

Anthony McCartney ?@mccartneyAP 14h
Before court recessed for the day, Phillips was shown emails about Murray's medical records that the doctor was fielding on day MJ died.

Whose medical records? During the trial Shafer testified it to be 1 of 17 unconscionable errors he made that he didn't keep records, so is the above medical records Michael's or someone elses?

I kind of remember the talking being about the insurance wanting a copy of Michael's medical record, and Murray saying something like "it's not that much." His behind didn't write anything down. Maybe when he FIRST hooked up with Michael, he "may" have kept some sort of record, but when he started working in Michael's bedroom, in the middle of the night, he certainly didn't write any of that down.

@bouee, thanks for adding your information as well. And just look at the media adding their laundry list of false stories to the situation. THEY MAKE ME SICK! No wonder Michael had a little "taste" before he did the press conference. He knew he was about to come face-to-face with THE BEAST, which is what I call the media.

 

[Lynn88]

Exactly and none of that is central to the key legal questions--it's just more "side show" and playing of emotional cards to manipulate the jurors.

Jermaine is the one who introduced Tohme to Michael and I agree they don't want to highlight that fact. Also, there were rumors that Tohme was related to Jermaine's wife--a cousin, I thought. That could just be rumor, tho. Would love to know how Jermaine and Tohme met, however. Shady character that Tohme & would love to hear him under oath on that witness stand!

Yes, that was a rumor. Jermaine's wife herself said it wasn't true on her twitter page.

 

[jaydom7]

I have noticed how the family has not mentioned one time that Jermaine hooked MJ up with Thome Thome.. Thome was the one that got MJ in the AEG with the 50 shows.. not a peep from Jermaine

 

[Big Apple2]

I have noticed how the family has not mentioned one time that Jermaine hooked MJ up with Thome Thome.. Thome was the one that got MJ in the AEG with the 50 shows.. not a peep from Jermaine

Of course not and IF it does come up, you can expect Jermaine to RE-WRITE history, by trying to distance himself from the entire thing.

You know how they get down, everybody ELSE is bad, but they are ALL good. It's that whole "pointing the finger" thing that they love to do, i.e. "don't look at me, the bad guy went thata way."

 

[Lisha]

Also, there were rumors that Tohme was related to Jermaine's wife--a cousin, I thought. That could just be rumor, tho. Would love to know how Jermaine and Tohme met.

Yes, that was a rumor. Jermaine's wife herself said it wasn't true on her twitter page.

Wasn't there also a rumor for awhile that Tohme's wife was Randy Phillip's sister?

 

[crillon]

Wasn't there also a rumor for awhile that Tohme's wife was Randy Phillip's sister?

I've yet to find a definitive source--maybe Panish can ask him under oath--as to whether or not Tohme was married to Randy Phillip's sister, Janet. Some say it's mistaken identity--it's not AEG's Randy Phillips, but another Randy. A google search turns up conversations about this topic on MJ forums, so nothing verifiable, but here's a sampling of that chatter:
https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=476745909611

 

[crillon]

The Jacksons can talk about their interventions and Michael's drug and alcohol use, plus anything Michael may have told them about the concerts and AEG.

Can they relay what Michael told them? That isn't "hearsay"?

If they can, you just know they're going to talk about MJ telling them "people were out to kill him" which is very inflammatory and without context can be dangerously biased. Michael also told family members he didn't sign up for 50 shows, but HIS manager did, based on what we're hearing on the witness stand.

I think the Jacksons' testimony will take this trial in a whole new direction (and not necessarily in a good way)...and the judge will allow it to happen. That's what's so frustrating--there are no boundaries like Judge Pastor instituted in the criminal trial. It's a free-for-all.

 

[bouee]

At the end of the Murrays doc video I postd above- go to 1mn27s if you don't want to hear Murray, Chernoff asks 2 questions :

- Did you go to Murray after the meeting to tell him anything ? RP says no.
- Do you know if Kenny Ortega did ? Rp says no , he doesn't think so because they all left together.

----

just to add to the sumary I did of Murray's video (I'll edit my post) , still according to Murray, Phillips said that the shows were the last chance Michael had to earn money. He said that if Michael didn't do the shows, he would be over.

 

[serendipity]

I've yet to find a definitive source--maybe Panish can ask him under oath--as to whether or not Tohme was married to Randy Phillip's sister, Janet. Some say it's mistaken identity--it's not AEG's Randy Phillips, but another Randy. A google search turns up conversations about this topic on MJ forums, so nothing verifiable, but here's a sampling of that chatter:
https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=476745909611

Phillips said in his testimony he didn't even know where Thome's office was, so it makes me think he didn't know much about him.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 6m
Phillips testified at Tohme Tohme’s hearing before the Labor Commission in a dispute with Michael Jackson’estate.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 5m
At the hearing, Phillips testified that Tohme wasn't a traditional music manager, and he didn't have a staff.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 5m
Phillips: “I don’t even know where his office was other than the bar at the Bel Air Hotel.” Some of the jury laughed when this was shown.

 

[Big Apple2]

just to add to the sumary I did of Murray's video (I'll edit my post) , still according to Murray, Phillips said that the shows were the last chance Michael had to earn money. He said that if Michael didn't do the shows, he would be over.

I don't know whether or not what Murray the murderer said is true or not, but I will say this:

If Michael had changed his mind and did not do those shows, THE MEDIA would have crucified him and that goes for "some" of the fans also.

Remember what happened when a couple of dates got pushed back, "some" of the fans nearly lost their minds. They were nasty and mean. It was horrible, I couldn't believe what I was reading during that time period. Straight up ugly!

The media would have acted like it was WORLD WAR III! And "some" of the fans would have been right there supporting them, in my opinion.

 

[Big Apple2]

Phillips said in his testimony he didn't even know where Thome's office was, so it makes me think he didn't know much about him.

I can believe that.

That fool came from NOWHERE and he disappeared just as quickly, in my opinion. POOF, he was gone!

And to this very day, he remains a mystery.

Walking around, calling himself "DOCTOR" Tohme-Tohme. What the heck! Like nobody was going to eventually question his using the word DOCTOR before his name.

 

[bouee]

I don't know whether or not what Murray the murderer said is true or not, but I will say this:

If Michael had changed his mind and did not do those shows, THE MEDIA would have crucified him and that goes for "some" of the fans also.

Remember what happened when a couple of dates got pushed back, "some" of the fans nearly lost their minds. They were nasty and mean. It was horrible, I couldn't believe what I was reading during that time period. Straight up ugly!

The media would have acted like it was WORLD WAR III! And "some" of the fans would have been right there supporting them, in my opinion.

yes, I agree.

What's bugging me, is that Phillips is using the same type of arguments, though in a softer way, in his e mail to Ortega, before the meeting :

"Kenny, it's critical that neither you, me or anyone else around this show become amateur psychiatrist or physicians. I had a lengthy conversation with Dr. Murray, who I'm gaining immense respect for as I get to deal with him more. He said that Michael is not only physically equipped to perform and, that discouraging him to, will hasten his decline instead of stopping it. Dr. Murray also reiterated that he's mentally able to and was speaking to me from the house where he has spent the morning with MJ. This doctor is extremely successful (we check everyone out) and does not need this gig so he totally unbiased and ethical. It is critical we surround Michael with love and support and listen to how he wants to get ready for July 13th. Cont'd: You cannot imagine the harm and ramifications of stopping this show now. It would far outweigh "calling this game in the 7th inning". I'm not just talking about AEG's interests here, but the myriad of stuff/lawsuits swirling around MJ that I crisis manage every day and also his well-being. I am meeting with him today at 4p at the Forum. Please stay steady. Enough alarms have sounded. It is time to out out the fire, not burning the building down. Sorry for all the analogies. Randy (ABC7)

and why would he be crisis managing Michael's lawsuits ?

 

[Big Apple2]

Another thing I noticed, after reading today's updates.

Michael spent a bit of his time, getting rid of this one, hiring that one, firing that one, then hiring back the one he just got rid of. Oh the confusion!

Mike signed a letter on May 5, 2009, getting rid of Tohme-Tohme. Didn't he also sign a letter during that time period, or "around" that time period getting rid of that pus ball named Leonard Rowe?

 

[troubleman84]

Another thing I noticed, after reading today's updates.

Michael spent a bit of his time, getting rid of this one, hiring that one, firing that one, then hiring back the one he just got rid of. Oh the confusion!

Mike signed a letter on May 5, 2009, getting rid of Tohme-Tohme. Didn't he also sign a letter during that time period, or "around" that time period getting rid of that pus ball named Leonard Rowe?

Yeah. Not that I blame Michael but he did go manager shopping in the last four or so years of his life...smh he even tried out managers his brother recommended only to find that he wasn't really good at that so he was fired. I would think if it's brought up that Murray was hired by MJ in 2006, it could possibly exonerate AEG despite the fact Phillips is a scum bucket. He obviously only cared about money. I think it's possible AEG could've prevented this if they actually were that concerned about CM. So far their actions don't prove they were and if they did, it was already too late.

 

[bouee]

Yeah. Not that I blame Michael but he did go manager shopping in the last four or so years of his life...smh he even tried out managers his brother recommended only to find that he wasn't really good at that so he was fired. I would think if it's brought up that Murray was hired by MJ in 2006, it could possibly exonerate AEG despite the fact Phillips is a scum bucket. He obviously only cared about money. I think it's possible AEG could've prevented this if they actually were that concerned about CM. So far their actions don't prove they were and if they did, it was already too late.

I don't think so : Murray treated Michael and the kids periodically from 2006-2009, which is one of the explanation they give (can't remember who said that though) for not running background checks, and trusting Murray because he was the family doctor (ie he treated the kids).

What could partially exonerate AEG is Murray starting to work full time for Michael in april- which is not proven yet.

IMO the indep contractor status (instead of cash advance) + budget + relationship they had with Murray (including him in meetings for ex) + sending revised contracts up until the last moment, proves AEG at least CO hired Murray, along with Michael. So far it's 50-50 Michael AEG, as far as the hiring goes, for me.

If hiring is only a yes or no question, if I was on the jury, and with what we heard so far, I would say yes, but reduce the damages , in the sense that they share that responsability with Michael.

Then we have the supervision part of the claim, and the retaining issue.

Of course I can still change my mind later when AEG present their case, but so far, that's how I see it.

 

[Big Apple2]

I think it's possible AEG could've prevented this if they actually were that concerned about CM. So far their actions don't prove they were and if they did, it was already too late.

I think, like bouee just said, that if Michael didn't have a PRIOR relationship with Murray, then "maybe" AEG would have responded differently. Not sure about that, it's hard to tell, because a doctor is such a personal part of a person's life and on the surface, Murray "appeared" to have it all together, aside from his financial situation, which in my opinion is the same as many, MANY other Americans. (I blame it on the credit card, and folks living above their means, but that's another story. LOL!)

Not only did Murray "appear" to have it all together, according to prior testimony his patients in Texas (or where ever) LOVED him, thought his murdering behind walked on water. You know, his taking care of the OLD, POOR, SICKLY FOLKS and all. Folks tend to put you on a pedestal when they are in that type of situation and somebody pays attention to their needs and Murray played that part perfectly, in my opinion.

 

[bouee]

Not only did Murray "appear" to have it all together, according to prior testimony his patients in Texas (or where ever) LOVED him, thought his murdering behind walked on water. You know, his taking care of the OLD, POOR, SICKLY FOLKS and all. Folks tend to put you on a pedestal when they are in that type of situation and somebody pays attention to their needs and Murray played that part perfectly, in my opinion.

Yes, I agree, I think he lost it after Michael died, and that his crazy side showed more clearly after that.

 

[troubleman84]

I don't think so : Murray treated Michael and the kids periodically from 2006-2009, which is one of the explanation they give (can't remember who said that though) for not running background checks, and trusting Murray because he was the family doctor (ie he treated the kids).

What could partially exonerate AEG is Murray starting to work full time for Michael in april- which is not proven yet.

IMO the indep contractor status (instead of cash advance) + budget + relationship they had with Murray (including him in meetings for ex) + sending revised contracts up until the last moment, proves AEG at least CO hired Murray, along with Michael. So far it's 50-50 Michael AEG, as far as the hiring goes, for me.

If hiring is only a yes or no question, if I was on the jury, and with what we heard so far, I would say yes, but reduce the damages , in the sense that they share that responsability with Michael.

Then we have the supervision part of the claim, and the retaining issue.

Of course I can still change my mind later when AEG present their case, but so far, that's how I see it.

That's actually what I was trying to say. Maybe Conrad was just a family doctor when hired in 2006 allegedly and then Michael made him his personal doctor in 2009. It's all about the timeline really.

 

[troubleman84]

I think, like bouee just said, that if Michael didn't have a PRIOR relationship with Murray, then "maybe" AEG would have responded differently. Not sure about that, it's hard to tell, because a doctor is such a personal part of a person's life and on the surface, Murray "appeared" to have it all together, aside from his financial situation, which in my opinion is the same as many, MANY other Americans. (I blame it on the credit card, and folks living above their means, but that's another story. LOL!)

Not only did Murray "appear" to have it all together, according to prior testimony his patients in Texas (or where ever) LOVED him, thought his murdering behind walked on water. You know, his taking care of the OLD, POOR, SICKLY FOLKS and all. Folks tend to put you on a pedestal when they are in that type of situation and somebody pays attention to their needs and Murray played that part perfectly, in my opinion.

Hmm, maybe that's why Randy said what he said. But I think if he was so personally involved with Michael in a business sense, it probably wouldn't have hurt for an investigation even if Michael didn't want it and Michael can be stubborn if he trusted someone. From what I gathered, Randy himself trusted Murray until much later.

 

[Big Apple2]

Hmm, maybe that's why Randy said what he said. But I think if he was so personally involved with Michael in a business sense, it probably wouldn't have hurt for an investigation even if Michael didn't want it and Michael can be stubborn if he trusted someone. From what I gathered, Randy himself trusted Murray until much later.

They would have had to do that investigation on the down low. LOL!

Like you said, we all know Michael had his little stubborn streak, and he "most likely" would have said: NO BACKGROUND CHECK IS NECESSARY! And that would have been the end of it.

But then AEG would have been able to say: "we wanted to do a background check, but Michael said it wasn't necessary, so we dropped it."

 

[Big Apple2]

That's actually what I was trying to say. Maybe Conrad was just a family doctor when hired in 2006 allegedly and then Michael made him his personal doctor in 2009. It's all about the timeline really.

Yeah, I think Michael's first introduction to Murray was because the children were sick with colds.

In my opinion, once Murray got his foot in the door, he pounced. I mean, who wouldn't want to say that they are personal friends with the one and only Mr. Michael Jackson. Especially with Murray's "side" occupation with loving the young ladies, i.e. "Not only am I a doctor, I'm personal friends with Michael Jackson. Yes, THAT Michael Jackson."

In my further opinion, all Murray had to do in order to get on Michael's good side, when they first met, was to tell Michael stories about all of the POOR, OLD FOLKS he treated in his various clinics. That type of talk was right up Michael's alley, being that he was ALWAYS concerned about the less fortunate.

 

[bouee]

. From what I gathered, Randy himself trusted Murray until much later.

That's what he seems to be saying, I find it REALLY hard to believe, especially after the 20th. So far, a butt slap excuse, as far as I am concerned.

He says it was not psychological, and only suspecting Klein.

An 8 week flu now ? His testimony made it sound like he was trying to calm down Kenny's "hysteria", it sounds like he ignored Hougdahl's emails about Michael degrading for 8 weeks and not being able to do the 360° spins.

Like PG, it seems he didn't remember much when he was deposed, and then memory comes back partially once everyone is deposed ?

It sounds like a poker game...

 

[Big Apple2]

and only suspecting Klein.

In my opinion, there were a lot of folks who suspected Klein, instead of Murray.

Who testified that Michael appeared loopy after visiting Klein's office? Was it Travis Payne?

I also remember way back, when ever pictures of Michael leaving Klein's office came out, the fans would say the same thing, EVERY TIME, and that was: "Michael doesn't look right, what is Dr. Klein doing to Michael!"

Murray the murderer was probably very happy that folks were questioning Klein's actions, instead of his.

 

[bouee]

Hmm, maybe that's why Randy said what he said. But I think if he was so personally involved with Michael in a business sense, it probably wouldn't have hurt for an investigation even if Michael didn't want it and Michael can be stubborn if he trusted someone. From what I gathered, Randy himself trusted Murray until much later.

yes, you have point. The point is AEG didn't do any.

Big Apple, this is from LAPD (0rlando Martinez's testimony)

Detective Orlando Martinez testified that he looked into Murray's finances searching for a financial motive for his role in Jackson's death and relied mostly on public records. He turned up that Murray's Las Vegas home was in foreclosure proceedings, and Murray faced several liens for unpaid child support and other unpaid debts.(AP)

the problem is not Murray's debt per se, it's that he was not paying it back. Which is weird for a "successful cardiologist"

 

[serendipity]

Well, Phillips just testified that Thome was introduced to MJ by Jermaine and there was a familiarity between them.

 

[Petrarose]

Email on 3/13/09 from Leiweke to Phillips:
Phil (Anschutz) can be such a paranoid scrooge. He thinks he's smarter than everyone.

I don't know whether it was smart move from Panish to show that email in trial?
They have been trying desparately show to jurors how AEG employees are a-holes, trying to show how badly they talked about MJ in they emails (although some cases I don't agree to be bad as they want people to believe), but now they bring out that there was talk behing RP himself as well as the owner of AEG and Kenny. How the jurors are going to take that, not sure, but it made me think that all of the employees were like giggling school girls talking shite behind others back, not just MJ, but everybody. If I were juror, I couldn't fault them taking bad about MJ if they talked like that to everybody on sight.
This trial is not about are they stupid school girls, it is about whether they hired CM.





Btw, ABC7 tweets are annoying as hell, they don't post them in order and are all over the place:angry:

I was thinking the same thing about the paranoid comment. It shows that these men talk like that in general, so how are you going to show that they singled Michael out to devalue him in e-mails. I think Panish brought this up to make trouble for Phillips and AEG owner. Further, Panish forgot what the aim of the trial was a long time ago.

Bubs when I was a preteen I started reading some oldie novels called Perry Mason. The author was a lawyer and began writing while he was practicing law. I don't know if you read the books, or saw the re-run shows on tv which are in black and white. Actually in these novels I learned a lot of real legal terms. I remember in one book Perry claims that the prosecution was doing something which was a big mistake. To paraphrase, he said they were introducing hours and hours of lengthy negative evidence. He said what happens is that the jury becomes suppressed by this constant negativity and begin to psychologically seek something more jovial to gain some release. They need a break. So a good lawyer/prosecutor has to break that and introduce some other type of evidence, otherwise you will lose your jury.

My mind ran back to that during this case, because for weeks and weeks now we have been looking at a bunch of negative e-mails day after day. By now the jury is looking for something else; it is like saying ok we got the picture. They are disgusting people. Now if AEG's lawyer begin their case and steer away from e-mails, or do not focus too heavily on them, I wonder what impact that would have on a jury?

I think Walgren understood this well, because it did not take him long to rest his case. He could have put on more experts to prove how negligent Muarry was, but once he proved his point he stopped.

Another thing I learned from the novels, is that you do not ask the witness the same question again in the same way, or in the same order. Now yesterday that was a problem for Phillips because he claimed Panish keep asking him the same questions, and I noticed the questions were already asked last week. This causes the tense relationship between Panish and Phillips. What Panish has to do is to ask something else then go back and ask him the question he asked before but use different language. You don't use the same words in the question anymore. It seems that is the best way of trapping the witness. I think that is true because even with the psychiatric or psychological tests for the various mental disorders, if there are about 35 questions for the patient to fill out, some of the questions are repetitions but written in different words to see if the patient is lying. So it seems this strategy works in different fields as well.

 

[ivy]

 

[serendipity]

Interesting. But not very clear what she means -MJ said what? That he had hidden drugs/propofol in his house? Doesn't make much sense. I hope we get more info, though I'm not sure how relevant this is.

 

[PrɛttyღBµʈʈɇrƒℓу]

This judgment has every burlesque scene that is even hard to believe. Looks more like a stand up comedy. if Karen Faye (another comedian of the court) couldn't say what Michael allegedly told to her, much less Phillips could use what the former wife of his cliente told to him in dubious circumstances.

 

[serendipity]

Oh Lord, ok they cleared it up on cross. Brenda Richie apparently told Philips that she spoke to Mj after he died through a medium or something and he told her that he killed himself and Murray was not to blame and that's what she meant in that email by saying "MJ said that".

The woman is loony.