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Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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AEG execs called their own boss a "paranoid scrooge"
 
Victory22 said:
I didn't break down until the very end of TII when Michael sang Man In The Mirror and put he's hands out to take a final bow. That's the moment I totally lost it.
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Yeah, that is when you know it is the end; there is no more Michael.

Funny they called their boss a "paranoid scrooge," and they are probably correct. The point is that these mean talk tough and dirty all the time and it seems they acted the same way with Michael. I wonder what type of e-mails they sent about the boss. Come to think of it, I have heard workers say some real, real nasty stuff about their bosses too.
 
bouee said:
Good that he acknowledges that. He seems to me to be the kind of person who would create tension even when he is calm. So "nerve racked", that must have been something.
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I am sure if you had been in that situation you would have handled it better--and so would many perhaps, but Randy was there and did what he could. At least whatever he did got MJ to the podium and I think in TII someone commented that once MJ saw the 7,000 fans giving him all their love, he became 'the old MJ' and you could see how touched he was, how much it meant to him. I was so moved when he said "You have to know I love you from the bottom of my heart. I really mean it." Now that he's gone, I think of that as a message to his fans--all of us--that he loved us from the bottom of his heart.

Thanks, Ivy, I so appreciate the clarity of your thinking when you present and explain what we are trying to understand amid all the competing interpretations!

One thing I have gotten out of this trial--2 new phrases: bagel therapy, and trial by email. LOL!
 
qbee said:
It's not that I totally disagree with what you're saying. but because of his dramatic asenine emails its hard to judge what really went down in that room that day. His own wording saying I screamed at him and slapped him is concerning. It doesn't equate to I smacked or patted him on the butt. Now that could have very well been the case but what I'm trying to say is his disrespectful (drama queen) emails about MJ's condition and his screaming and slapping references etc brought considerable shade on MJ and AEG as well. It also causes finding the truth very difficult. Michael should have been treated better even under those circumstances and talked about with more respect in the emails. I do realise RP was freaking and concerned about MJS reputation as well as their own if he didn't attend the Press conference. but I Just can't defend how it all went down and how he addressed others so disrespectful about MJ and the events that went down in his emails at that time. It probably wasn't as dramatic as he made it seem based on how MJ appeared at the 02. but now because he was a AH in those emails we have this very negative picture of MJ being publicised. Its just more negative ammunition that can be used against MJ by the media and his enemies etc. I guess I'm just angry at him for writing them and the Jackson's that it was even brought out in this trial.
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Yes, but he didn't know then that they were not private emails. We all say off the cuff things in private emails. He didn't know they would be read by the entire world and the basis of a billion-dollar lawsuit. Don't you think if he knew what he knows now, he would have chosen his words better? He was being very upfront and honest about what he saw--not PC for wide readership. For instance, he would not have admitted he slapped MJ if he knew people would be reading it. It only makes him look bad now.
 
^^It is a Trial By E-mail. Basically nothing happened today, right. Randy admits that what he said in the e-mail about Muarry being ethical, they investigate everyone, etc., is not accurate. It took all day for just that. I hope when Randy comes back tomorrow that Panish will not start over with the questions already covered today. It seems he started today with the questions he covered the last court date.

Jamba we have all these competing interpretations because the trial is so long that we cannot afford all the transcripts. Notice how different the Muarry trial was, because some stayed home and watched it on tv or looked at the stream and took notes. We do not have a clear picture from the tweets. The tweets make some riled up.
 
marebear said:
I am sorry but all I see is Michael being humiliated and disrespected. He is not here to see or feel it but I do. If Michael was really anxious and worried like that on the day of the press conference I wish I could have given him a big hug. The media, the tabloids the public and all the evil people who went after Michael should be ashamed of themselves. Michael was broken down so much that he was scared about performing when it's like home for him. That's their doing. They could never leave him alone. I don't know what is the truth if he was drunk or what really happened since Michael can't say what happened either. It just really makes me sad and angry all the bull**** that Michael went through. The way people talked to or about him, used him, abused him and such. I cherish anything positive or something nice being said or done for Michael right now. This negativity is too much.
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I read that MJ became very nervous about performing, getting on stage, after the trial. There was a story that he was supposed to appear (maybe when he was supposed to get that award that they later made fun about--artist of the millenium or something) and he was backstage and saw all the people and didn't want to go on stage, kept saying there's too many people, and he had to be reminded of his 'contractual agreements' to get him on stage. Also in TII some of the people in the production later said he seemed not to be the old confident MJ and they were trying to build up his self-esteem (this was from someone who had toured with him before and noticed the difference in his confidence level). I am sure he was VERY nervous before the press conference and maybe even wanted to back out altogether.
 
^^Maybe he thought the people would shout nasty things at him. It is all very, very sad...
 
Yes im sure he was nervous and worried about how he would be received at the press conference. But I'm so happy he received so much love and support and he could see all the excitement he was causing with his announcement first hand. You could see it overwhelmed him and he had to stop and say you know I love you you gotta know that .. or something to that effect. I think that gave him a lot of confidence.
 
It's sad because it shows all the damage that was done to Michael. But I am glad too he saw all the love from the fans like that.
 
Panish: Did you want Dr. Murray to get exonerated?
Phillips: I'd always want an innocent man not to get convicted

I just.... I can't any longer.

Am I reading this right? Please point it out if I am not.... I just... I don't even know what to think about that.
 
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PG and RP not need help from the Jacksons to sink AEG. Or were not prepared when they gave the initial testimonials or are not being satisfactorily now.

And this contradiction without end, combined with a infant combativeness... is not possible that it goes unnoticed by the jury.

Anyway, unwittingly support the Jacksons, I think they deserve a lot a condemnation. It's disgusting the way Michael was treated and how their dreams were used against him.
 
When AEG employees behave negatively, it casts a negative reflection on the person performing the negative act and the company they represent; not the recipient. Michael may very well have been inebriated but, it did not warrant Phillips’ behavior. It is never appropriate to slap a business partner. Michael could have charged Phillips’ with battery.

I am baffled at how AEG’s negative actions are somehow the plaintiffs’ fault. We are learning the truth behind this ill-fated tour because of this trial. Although the truth is painful, I am grateful to know it. There is no one to blame for AEG’s actions except AEG.

Debra Opri was correct. The emails did indeed get worse and showed grosser negligence by AEG towards Michael. I agree with LMP Jackson in that AEG was so focused (blinded) on their dream to put Michael onstage and become the number one concert promoter that they could not make a correct decision if they tried. There is an adage regarding making a wrong decision right. However, every day in court is another email that gives another reason why this company made the foolish and fatal decision to employ this doctor and encourage him to do what was necessary to ensure Michael got onstage.

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 4h
Kane cont'd: I have the details of what he is doing.
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ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 4h
Kane responded:
Well since we owe him $48k and he wants payment maybe I should stop paying him and he'll stop shooting him up.
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ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 4h
"He scares us to death because he is shooting him up with something," Phillips wrote back.
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Unfortunately, we do not know what Kane told Phillips (unless it is in the transcript). What is interesting is that Phillips felt he could somehow exonerate the doctor after Brenda Richie (is she a witness?) confirms Michael had a poly-pharmaceutical death which included propofol. Did Phillips feel Klein was more of a culprit than the doctor? What causes Phillips’ allegiance to this doctor?

Do you remember the e mail from Phillips about "pulling the plug" on 25th march. We thought it was about Karen then. What I'm going to say might not make sense : Tygger suggested at the time that more stuff happened between TII annoucement and 25th march. Now i'm beginning to wonder if that could be actually true. I guess that's the effect of the slapping thing on me . I need to go and do some stuff now, but I want to re read that part of PG's testimony later on tonight, to see how it was presented. At the time I read it, i was convinced it could not be the whole tour, because the date didn't make sense. If there's no link, then there's no link. But I fear more nasty surpises like the one we just had in this trial this week, and more claryfing to do later.
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Bouee, did you discover any news? I must admit I sometimes feel AEG was not so concerned about Michael appearance at rehearsal for a “first-class show” as they were ensuring footage of him for the “making of” film. If Michael did not show up, the TII movie would not exist. The “making of” movie was the only way for AEG to profit, that I am aware of, if Michael did not complete the shows. We will never know the truth about the June 20th meeting until Ortega testifies.

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 6h
Phillips said lack of sleep was discussed in the June 20th meeting, but wasn't the main focus.
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This answer after a few attempts by Panish. We may be able to add Phillips to the list of AEG employees/independent contractors who knew Michael had sleep issues.
 
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I agree, Tygger. I didn't think about it before but AEG was (and probably still is) in war with Live Nation over being the top concert draw. They had to convince Michael to push their own dreams for number-one and if that meant they slapped Michael's a$$ around like a pimp does to a hooker, then that's what they do. They don't wanna hear about you being nervous or out of it, they will tell you to "get on out there or you're gonna make me look bad". This industry is so demonic, as Chaka Khan eloquently said following Whitney's death. And AEG quickly releasing This Is It to theaters and what not proved that old theory: "you're more worth it dead than alive". That's why I can't co-sign AEG anymore because they helped to put Michael in this predicament to work as hard as he did. Sure they may have not hired Murray for him (note: I would never hint that they did) but they surely didn't help him. So save that "but they were just business people" stuff. I'm not pro-AEG or pro-Jackson but it is what it is. And it sucks. That could also explain why I haven't watched This Is It since the first time I played it because I felt really funny about it...
 
jamba;3842288 said:
I am sure if you had been in that situation you would have handled it better--and so would many perhaps, but Randy was there and did what he could. At least whatever he did got MJ to the podium and I think in TII someone commented that once MJ saw the 7,000 fans giving him all their love, he became 'the old MJ' and you could see how touched he was, how much it meant to him.
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Jamba, it's not about me. MOST people would have handled it better. MOST people would not go that far. I can't make excuses for Phillips. Is it uncommon for artists to get stage fright ? It could have been anticipated. As a professional, Phillips certainly handled that type of situation before.

jamba;3842290 said:
Yes, but he didn't know then that they were not private emails. We all say off the cuff things in private emails. He didn't know they would be read by the entire world and the basis of a billion-dollar lawsuit. Don't you think if he knew what he knows now, he would have chosen his words better? He was being very upfront and honest about what he saw--not PC for wide readership. For instance, he would not have admitted he slapped MJ if he knew people would be reading it. It only makes him look bad now.
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Of course if he had known his emails would become public, he would have been more careful. But, at least so far, we have not read similar things from Ortega, even PG's e mails are not as bad as Phillips. Those mails do say something about his personality, and help understand why and how he makes his decision and handles his job.

Petrarose;3842291 said:
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Jamba we have all these competing interpretations because the trial is so long that we cannot afford all the transcripts. Notice how different the Muarry trial was, because some stayed home and watched it on tv or looked at the stream and took notes. We do not have a clear picture from the tweets. The tweets make some riled up.
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That's true, and also the whole situation is not as clear as it was with Murray. Murray did not testify, and it was about medical facts, so a lot of the things he said or did could easily be proved or disproved. Here we have lawyers of both sides asking questions to show specific things, and strategies with a lot of memory loss during depositions, changes from the depostions, other memory loss on the stand, or obviouly twisting the truth.

marebear;3842302 said:
It's sad because it shows all the damage that was done to Michael. But I am glad too he saw all the love from the fans like that.
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And Michael knew the shows were sold out, that there was enough demand for more shows, that must have been a big relief and joy too. I'm glad he knew that.

That Other Fan;3842303 said:
Panish: Did you want Dr. Murray to get exonerated?
Phillips: I'd always want an innocent man not to get convicted

I just.... I can't any longer.

Am I reading this right? Please point it out if I am not.... I just... I don't even know what to think about that.
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Yes, you read that right. Keep in mind Phillips is arrogant, provocative and does not seem to be very human. And we don't have all the questions and answers that were asked. It could be what he thought at the time, not what he thinks now. it could have been a voluntarily provocative answer.

Tygger;3842319 said:
Debra Opri was correct. The emails did indeed get worse and showed grosser negligence by AEG towards Michael. I agree with LMP Jackson in that AEG was so focused (blinded) on their dream to put Michael onstage and become the number one concert promoter that they could not make a correct decision if they tried. There is an adage regarding making a wrong decision right. However, every day in court is another email that gives another reason why this company made the foolish and fatal decision to employ this doctor and encourage him to do what was necessary to ensure Michael got onstage.
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I agree with the bolded. i'm not sure about competition with Live Nation. AEG seems messy and disorganised to me, some of the mistakes can be involuntary. That doesn't mean excusable to me, but I'm not sure there was a bad intention at the beginning.
The best example would be the contract they made to Murray (indep contractor vs cash advance). However there might be a reason, when you look at the e mails, it looks like lawyers were scratching their heads about how to adapt the contract to a personnal doctor. How come they never thought of a cash adavance, or chose that type of contract ?

I think a lot had to with the unhealthy atmosphere at AEG, with executives like Phillips and Anschultz described by Leiweke as a "paranoid scrooge".

I find it weird that Phillips has not been asked anything yet about the hiring process, Murray's salary, including him in production costs (and so paying 5% of his salary if the shows had happened), dissuading Michael from hiring Murray, his meetings with Murray, etc.. That will maybe come later.



Tygger;3842319 said:
Bouee, did you discover any news? I must admit I sometimes feel AEG was not so concerned about Michael appearance at rehearsal for a “first-class show” as they were ensuring footage of him for the “making of” film. If Michael did not show up, the TII movie would not exist. The “making of” movie was the only way for AEG to profit, that I am aware of, if Michael did not complete the shows. We will never know the truth about the June 20th meeting until Ortega testifies.
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No not yet, I haven't re read PG's testimony, I haven't had the time so far. I will probably do that this week or next week, as I have more time now.

About the documentary, we have this :

06/22/09 from Hougdahl (Production Manager, known as Bugzee) to Gongaware: Further to the earlier email Let's keep our 2 docu people out of here today, unless they stay in the dressing room area only. Tomorrow is another story... (ABC7)
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@bouee
I find it weird that Phillips has not been asked anything yet about the hiring process, Murray's salary, including him in production costs (and so paying 5% of his salary if the shows had happened), dissuading Michael from hiring Murray, his meetings with Murray, etc.. That will maybe come later.
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I agree, Panish's is simply to discredit Phillips, and Phillips does seem to be making it fairly easy for him. But again maybe that will become clearer later on.

Just at the end of the testimony Brenda Richie's name came up and she has gone off on one on twitter


  • Brenda Harvey Richie &#8207;@BrendaRichie<small class="time" style="font-size: 12px; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); position: relative; float: right; margin-top: 1px;">2h</small>
    Thanks to Randy Phillips!

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  • Brenda Harvey Richie &#8207;@BrendaRichie<small class="time" style="font-size: 12px; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); position: relative; float: right; margin-top: 1px;">2h</small>
    Brenda Richie from the Coroner's Office! If anybody needs any info call Me! LOL Apparently I have been promoted to Head Coroner of LA!


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  • Brenda Harvey Richie &#8207;@BrendaRichie<small class="time" style="font-size: 12px; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); position: relative; float: right; margin-top: 1px;">2h</small>
    This is laughable! I gave him information that he didn't tell the police because he didn't know if it was reliable! What a crock of Sh$t!

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  • Brenda Harvey Richie &#8207;@BrendaRichie<small class="time" style="font-size: 12px; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); position: relative; float: right; margin-top: 1px;">2h</small>
    “@ABC7Courts: Lionel Richie's ex-wife Brenda called Philips and said MJ died of a combination of other drugs and Propofol.”

    Brenda Harvey Richie &#8207;@BrendaRichie    ​
  • <small class="time" style="font-size: 12px; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); position: relative; float: right; margin-top: 1px;">2h</small>
    “@ABC7Courts: Phillips said he never told police, the DA or Dr. Murray's attorneys about it because he thought the info was not reliable.”

    ****************

    What I don't get is why would he say it if it didn't happen?



    ​
 
LastTear said:
What I don't get is why would he say it if it didn't happen?
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I thought she was simply telling him the conclusion of the coroner, that she had probably heard on the news.....It came out in early august 09 if I remember correctly.

She must be reacting to the "unreliable" part ?
 
^^^^ Idk, my understanding is that it happened before the coroners report came out. Oh who knows! *throws arms in the air*
 
Email on 3/13/09 from Leiweke to Phillips:
Phil (Anschutz) can be such a paranoid scrooge. He thinks he's smarter than everyone.

I don't know whether it was smart move from Panish to show that email in trial?
They have been trying desparately show to jurors how AEG employees are a-holes, trying to show how badly they talked about MJ in they emails (although some cases I don't agree to be bad as they want people to believe), but now they bring out that there was talk behing RP himself as well as the owner of AEG and Kenny. How the jurors are going to take that, not sure, but it made me think that all of the employees were like giggling school girls talking shite behind others back, not just MJ, but everybody. If I were juror, I couldn't fault them taking bad about MJ if they talked like that to everybody on sight.
This trial is not about are they stupid school girls, it is about whether they hired CM.





Btw, ABC7 tweets are annoying as hell, they don't post them in order and are all over the place:angry:
 
LastTear said:
^^^^ Idk, my understanding is that it happened before the coroners report came out. Oh who knows! *throws arms in the air*
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yes, you are right. i checked goolge news, it seems he coroner's preliminary report was made public on august 25 2009, or at least that's the date I find it first mentionned in the media.

the part of Phillips testimony is here:

On 8/18/09 Phillips wrote email to Michael Roth: I think I know what MJ died of and this would exonerate Conrad. Lionel Richie's ex-wife Brenda called Philips and said MJ died of a combination of other drugs and Propofol. Phillips said he never told police, the DA or Dr. Murray's attorneys about it because he thought the info was not reliable. Panish: Did you want Dr. Murray to get exonerated? Phillips: I'd always want an innocent man not to get convicted. Panish played video of Phillips' deposition where he said he didn't remember what the information was but his memory has been refreshed (ABC
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7)
 
LastTear said:
^^^^ Idk, my understanding is that it happened before the coroners report came out. Oh who knows! *throws arms in the air*
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I don't understand Brenda Lionel and Randy P part at all, but I know coroners full report was out August 25 when MJ'ss death was ruled homicide
 
Thanks Bouee, looking at her timeline she seems very tight with the family (Jacksons), maybe they were told before it was made public, 5-6 days in between sounds a long time though and the families autopsy wouldn't have been until after the coroners.

Expect Brenda to be added to the witness list today
 
Bubs said:
I don't understand Brenda Lionel and Randy P part at all, but I know coroners full report was out August 25 when MJ'ss death was ruled homicide
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From her time line I think I have gathered that RP was Lionel's manager and they fell out and RP got fired over We are the World 2.
 
I still don't understand what that has got to do with this trial.
Never mind, its propably irrelevant anyway:)

Note, I'm in snoozy mode as I have no patience for email war who-said-what-to-whom, I need to see some evidence relating to last remaining claim.
 
^^^^^^ I agree, we haven't seen anything yet and we are what, five or six week in? I wonder what the jury is thinking?
 
It has to with AEG, or Phillips, actions after they found out what & who killed Michael
 
I think its been 6 weeks :bugeyed

I noticed that Panish didn't ask Randy P anything about AEG hiring CM. I suppose he finds it irrelevant as he has more pressing issues to take care, like asking whether RP and AEG are assholes .Why don't Panish just spend 5 minutes with RP and ask him directly whether he is asshole, and get over it, then he could concentrate the actual trial.

When this trial is over, I think I'm going to look like this:
Waiting.gif
 
It's not clear from the testimony, did RP say in the email that Brenda called him? Or only on the stand. She denies it but I don't understand why he would lie about it.

Obviously if he had any information that would exonerate Murray then it would have been presented at the wrongful death trial. This is obviously him thinking out loud again, before he has the facts, kinda like we do on here, only we have the mods to stop us name calling or being silly. lol
 
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