Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Big Apple2]

oh, Ok. yes, i wrote about that yesterday. Phillips is provocative & arrogant, and we don't have all the questions that were asked. I'm not sure what he meant, really.

I "think" that the jury likes Randy Phillips. They seem to spend a lot of time laughing. I guess it's because he's quick with the one-line comebacks. I guess.

 

[Big Apple2]

My understanding of the situation so far is that Phillips had enough info to suspect Murray, but did nothing, on the contrary he supported him.

It looks to me like 5-year old, oops, I mean 50-year old Michael Jackson ALSO supported Conrad Murray.

 

[bouee]

I "think" that the jury likes Randy Phillips. They seem to spend a lot of time laughing. I guess it's because he's quick with the one-line comebacks. I guess.

I don't know...His jokes make me laugh too sometimes, but I don't like him , at all.
And the judge admonished both Phillips and Panish, so, I'm not sure.

 

[bouee]

It looks to me like 5-year old, oops, I mean 50-year old Michael Jackson ALSO supported Conrad Murray.

Already asked and answered !

Though we had a new info : Michael had the flu, according to Murray.

 

[Big Apple2]

Already asked and answered !

Though we had a new info : Michael had the flu, according to Murray.

I didn't ask a question. I stated an opinion. What's your point?

Michael OBVIOUSLY supported Murray way before AEG come on the scene. Way before "he had the flu, according to Murray."

Michael trusted Murray and by all accounts liked Murray and considered him a friend.

(I like my doctor also, but we're not friends. LOL!)

 

[Vici]

I dont know. Sometimes the jury laughs and sometimes they shake their heads... we dont know if they are laughing because they think its funny or the fact they are laughing AT him and not with him.

 

[Big Apple2]

I dont know. Sometimes the jury laughs and sometimes they shake their heads... we dont know if they are laughing because they think its funny or the fact they are laughing AT him and not with him.

By the content of what they are responding to with their laughter, I would have to "guess" that they are laughing with him and not at him.

i.e. "question: did the lawyers show you any documents during lunch? answer: only the menu." Son is definitely quick with the comebacks, that's for sure.

 

[bouee]

I didn't ask a question. I stated an opinion. What's your point?

Michael OBVIOUSLY supported Murray way before AEG come on the scene. Way before "he had the flu, according to Murray."

Michael trusted Murray and by all accounts liked Murray and considered him a friend.

(I like my doctor also, but we're not friends. LOL!)

You quoted me, so I objected "asked and aswered" , you know my opinion about the subject. :wink:

- I'm not sure what Murray told Michael (the flu ? really ? ), so it's a bit difficult to be sure Michael had a clear understanding of the problem (re propofol, benzos, etc..)
- the trial is about AEG's liabilty, not Michael's.
I answered one of your post earlier on, assuming Michael knew 100% what was going on with his health, that if Michael wanted to jump out of the window from the 7th floor , should AEG hold the window open for him, because that's what he wanted ?
- I said earlier, that so far, for me, it's 50/50 AEG and Michael. So I agree a little bit with you, not completely.

 

[Big Apple2]

- the trial is about AEG's liabilty, not Michael's.

- I said earlier, that so far, for me, it's 50/50 AEG and Michael. So I agree a little bit with you, not completely.

The trial IS about AEG's liability, I agree. Maybe somebody should tell that to Mr. Panish.

You agree with me a "little bit," not completely, WONDERFUL, because I agree with you a "little bit" also, but not completely.

You and I are a testament of getting along on a message board, even though we don't COMPLETELY agree with each other - at times. BIG UPS TO US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Justthefacts]

It is very easy to sit back now and say well they should have known this or that. IMO they thought the problems Michael was having had nothing to do with Murray and everything to do with Klein. If people notice Michael acting different after coming back from Klein’s office then you would think something was wrong. How was anyone supposed to know that Murray was doing something so out of the box like giving someone propofol to sleep? It is so out there that people had a hard time believing it when the nurse first spoke about it. And now I think this was part of the reason Klein could not keep his mouth shut about Michael he thought that he had something to do with Michael dying. Besides the fact he is such a douche

 

[Big Apple2]

Yeah, I agree about it being "so far out there." I mean, who would have ever thought that something like that was going on in Michael's bedroom.

I was one of those folks who was cussing Nurse Lee out, when she started making her television rounds. LOL! I was one of those folks who were saying that she is making stuff up in order to get her 15 minutes of fame. Man, how wrong I was.

I remember reading about how NOBODY was allowed in Michael's bedroom, I figured it was because of everything that happened in the past and he was protecting himself. Now I believe it was because nobody was supposed to know what Murray was doing in that bedroom at night. It not only was a secret, it was a HUGE secret.

Nurse Lee, ANOTHER character in Michael's life, but in a good way. LOL!

 

[AliCat]

Alicat - you could be right about that being one of reasons reason for the fallout - but based on MJs own words it was because Tomee had to much control and MJ didn't trust or know what he was doing. Frank Dileo suggested he send notice to Thome That he was no longer his "Personal manager" He was fired from that position, but apparently Thomee still functioned in some capacity. but no longer managed Michael. Seems he did still manage the property 100 Carolwood drive and was the one that released Michaels personal staff from that property after he died.

Also Juliens Auction did much more that pack up and list neverland items. and if not Juliens then Michael would have had to hire someone else to pack up clean up, list all the items and ship them to a warehouse. That would have easily cost millions. have you seen all the items that Juliens displayed ? They are now stored in over 5 different warehouses.

I don't know qbee, when the information came out about Thome Thome paying Julienne's Auctions the $2 million, it was at the same time that Michael was tightening his financial belt, i.e. presenting a lesser amount of money to Grace, as Michael's Nanny and she declined and was let go. I understand what you are saying about the warehouses full of Michael's things, but these warehouses may be more than what was packed up at "Neverland." I'm not too sure about the trust issues, I just think that Thome Thome wasn't as brilliant a business man as Michael thought and that's why Thome Thome did not continue in the particular position he was brought in for.

 

[AliCat]

We know that MJ wanted the biggest and the best out there, and I can see why they wanted to control spending as they were supposed to advance the money, but they puckets are not bottomless, and I suppose they knew MJ habits and tried to slow him down from spending. MJ could have make million from tour, but what is the point making those million if he has no money left after AEG takes their advances from MJ profit. Sensible imho.

The Mansion that Michael was renting at the time of his death was valued at $15 million. Randy Phillips said that Michael wanted to rent a house, in the same neighborhood, that was valued at $100 million. This was one of the way's that AEG Live was trying to help Michael curb his spending, because AEG Live was definitely not bottomless pits of money.

 

[Big Apple2]

Thanks for yesterday's updates ivy.

I notice that 2 of the articles regarding yesterday's testimony mention that "Michael's brothers are doing business with AEG and are set to perform at a BET festival later this month."

OUCH! I wonder what the jury will make of that, and whether or not Mr. Putnam will hammer that little fact into the jury's head. I must admit, it is a very interesting little tidbit, that's for sure.

 

[Bubs]

Or it does make sense.. they wanna blame Michael obviously. They dont wanna blame the doctor because if the jury somehow thinks AEG were in contract with the doc or was alarmed enough it would be bad for them so hey lets blame MJ because 'Murray is innocent and it was MJ that asked for propofol'.

I think somehow that is the reason why they didn't want to put CM's name on verdict form. I'm not sure how it works but I'l wait and see what is in the verdict form.

What they think, might be the very same what thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people out there thinks of. Brutally said, Michael was an adult and he did ask propofol from his own doctor. That might be what those honchos think.
Sometimes I read comment sections from article, and those are the very same words commenters are using.

 

[Bubs]

From article Ivy posted on news thread:
About pressuring Jackson to perform, Phillips noted that Jackson died before he had performed a single show.

Meantime, there's a twist in the Jackson lawsuit. While Katherine Jackson is suing AEG, Michael Jackson's siblings are doing business with the company. The Jacksons are set to perform at a BET festival later this month.
---------------------------------------------------
RP is kind of right. MJ has been pressurised by tons of people during the years, this includes the person whose name filed the lawsuit and goes by plaintiff. Michael survived all those pressures without dying from propofol, but he didn't survive that arrogant bastard doctor CM.

Randy's head is going to pop when he sees that his brother are ruining his case :rollin:

 

[crillon]

What I found interesting Panish's last day questions were him asking about MJ's variety of MJ's managers. We know that family didn't know much about MJ's businesses but is this trial really the place to ask about it? Or is it that they were expecting AEG to take care of MJ business managers etc as well as his doctor?
In my mind, MJ took care of his own managers and his own doctor, AEG as concert promoters had no business to get involved in those aspects.
Although, seemingly RP took some iniative steps as MJ managers seems to be changing too fast in order to keep up with all the issues relating to the tour.
"Phillips said he wanted Michael to have somebody to manage him, because they needed somebody to deal with on his behalf."
and
"Email cont'd: we still have no lawyer, business manager, or, even, real manager in place. It is a nightmare!"
To me it looks like that as it was a messy situation, and noone really knew who was supposed to do what, and who was in charge of certain tasks.
------------------------
"Dr. Tohme was introduced to MJ by Jermaine Jackson, Phillips said. There was a familiarity between all of them, he said."

Reminder of Jermaine's reply from Q&A with MJJC
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...with-Jermaine-Jackson-Read-Jermaine-s-answers

Basically Jermaine brought Tohme to MJ and since things went sour, Jermaine gracefully washed his hands of any reponsibility :angry:
-----------------------------------

AEG Live is working on a BET Music Festival on June 28.
Friday: Beyonce, more mainstream artist
Saturday: Snoop Miguel and Kendrick Lamar, younger crowd
Sunday: Adult contemporary: R Kelly, Boyz to Men, The Jacksons.

Outch I wonder what jurors thought of that. Plaintiffs claims that AEG negligently hired CM who killed MJ, then they see Jacksons on AEG concert list.AEG cannot be that bad if brother are still dealing with them.

------------------------
Re smoking gun emails are not so smoking when the whole email is revealed and context makes sense
Putnam showed the email from Jun 13, 2008 with plans for MJ.
(the not fast, need to be controlled as much as possible email)
"Perfection is expensive, and incidentally impossible to achieve," Phillips opined, saying they tried to control MJ's spending, nothing else

We know that MJ wanted the biggest and the best out there, and I can see why they wanted to control spending as they were supposed to advance the money, but their pockets are not bottomless, and I suppose they knew MJ habits and tried to slow him down from spending. MJ could have make millions from tour, but what is the point making those millions if he has no money left after AEG takes their advances from MJ profit. Sensible imho.

I think Putnam is trying to show that Michael called all the shots on hiring people, and even when AEG was frustrated about not having a manager to deal with, they could not force the issue. Michael changed staff often and was command and control in his business and personal life. At least, that's how I see Putnam's line of questioning re/MJ's team.

And, ITA with your point re/the advances. AEG was generous in giving Michael what he needed for production costs, but when they saw the health issues, they understandably were worried that he couldn't perform and they had already advanced him all that money with no insurance approved at that time. From a business standpoint, Phillips had every right to be "jittery." IMO

 

[bouee]

It looks to me like 5-year old, oops, I mean 50-year old Michael Jackson ALSO supported Conrad Murray.

I have one hypothetical question for you, and others that use this argument (Michael was an adult, it was his choice).

IF it was proven - it will never be because it's not true - that someone in AEG knew all about propofol : ie what Murray was doing & the risks of it.

So hypothetical question, because I don't understand this argument, if it was proven, what would you think of AEG ?

EDIT : I can understand people who say "AEG didn't know", but I can't understand the "Michael was an adult" theory, that's why I ask.

 

[Big Apple2]

From article Ivy posted on news thread:

Meantime, there's a twist in the Jackson lawsuit. While Katherine Jackson is suing AEG, Michael Jackson's siblings are doing business with the company. The Jacksons are set to perform at a BET festival later this month.
---------------------------------------------------
Randy's head is going to pop when he sees that his brother are ruining his case

True dat!

Looks like there's gonna be ANOTHER fight in the Jackson family.

Listen Jermaine is in NO position to be particular, he has child support payments that need to be paid and if that money comes from the company they "claimed" is responsible for killing their brother, then so be it. Right Jermaine?

 

[Big Apple2]

I have one hypothetical question for you, and others that use this argument (Michael was an adult, it was his choice).

IF it was proven - it will never be because it's not true - that someone in AEG knew all about propofol : ie what Murray was doing & the risks of it.

So hypothetical question, because I don't understand this argument, if it was proven, what would you think of AEG ?

EDIT : I can understand people who say "AEG didn't know", but I can't understand the "Michael was an adult" theory.

Hypothetical speaking, I don't know what AEG could have done, even if they knew, short of going to the press and putting Michael and Murray on blast.

I mean, AEG are not babysitters. They could have said to Michael: "don't use propofol as a sleep aid, it sounds dangerous." And Michael would have said the same thing he said to Nurse Lee, that being: "my doctor said it's safe, as long as I'm being monitored."

The only thing AEG could have done was post a guard at Michael's bedroom door each night, thereby keeping Conrad Murray out. But we know that would and could never happen.

 

[bouee]

I think Putnam is trying to show that Michael called all the shots on hiring people, and even when AEG was frustrated about not having a manager to deal with, they could not force the issue. Michael changed staff often and was command and control in his business and personal life. At least, that's how I see Putnam's line of questioning re/MJ's team.

And, ITA with your point re/the advances. AEG was generous in giving Michael what he needed for production costs, but when they saw the health issues, they understandably were worried that he couldn't perform and they had already advanced him all that money with no insurance approved at that time. From a business standpoint, Phillips had every right to be "jittery." IMO

First part of your post, that's how I understood it too

Second part, Phillips knew who he was dealing with from the beginning :

13 june 08

On 6/13/08, Phillips sent email to Colony Capital with a summation of plans for MJ for four years.
Email: I caution you that MJ is not fast and a total perfectionist (needs to be controlled as much as possible).

Phillips said he was referring to MJ's spending.

 

[crillon]

Im really curious to know why Randy Phillips thought and still believes Murray is an innocent man.

I didn't hear that from RP's testimony. He testified he didn't want an innocent man to be convicted of something he didn't do as he recalled his thinking/feelings right after Michael died when no one knew what had happened to MJ & Brenda was emailing him re/drugs. But, NOW, he sees that CM is guilty. He even admitted under oath he was "wrong" about CM.

First part of your post, that's how I understood it too

Second part, Phillips knew who he was dealing with from the beginning :

I agree- I think Phillips def. knew about MJ's perfectionism and high burn rate on production costs, but the health issues and the Dr. Klein "wildcard" is likely what kept him up at night with worry. There were risks AEG could not control and they didn't have the security blanket of an approved insurance policy in place.

 

[bouee]

Hypothetical speaking, I don't know what AEG could have done, even if they knew, short of going to the press and putting Michael and Murray on blast.

I mean, AEG are not babysitters. They could have said to Michael: "don't use propofol as a sleep aid, it sounds dangerous." And Michael would have said the same thing he said to Nurse Lee, that being: "my doctor said it's safe, as long as I'm being monitored."

The only thing AEG could have done was post a guard at Michael's bedroom door each night, thereby keeping Conrad Murray out. But we know that would and could never happen.

Thanks for answering.

Yes, or they could have fired Murray , his contract was not signed yet, and Michael needed their money to pay Murray.

 

[bouee]

I didn't hear that from RP's testimony. He said he didn't want an innocent man to be convicted of something he didn't do as he recalled his thinking/feelings right after Michael died when no one knew what had happened to MJ. But, NOW, he sees that CM is guilty.

Did he say that YET?

I'm sure Putnam will ask him, though... Now Putnam will have to fix Phillips's bad jokes...

Edit, now that we know how Brenda got that info that Murray was innocent, maybe Phillips was joking about Brenda's "theory".

 

[Big Apple2]

Thanks for answering.

Yes, or they could have fired Murray , his contract was not signed yet, and Michael needed their money to pay Murray.

I think, just my opinion, that Michael would have found a way to keep Murray, with or without AEG's money. The man DEFINITELY had a knack for getting what he wanted.

And when I say he DEFINITELY had knack for getting what he wanted, I'm not talking about "drugs" or anything like that. I talking about in life, whatever that would entail.

Like with Neverland. I remember when their was continued reports, whoa is me reports, that Michael was about to lose Neverland any second. The fans were crying and having a nervous breakdown (some, not all). Everyday it was a cry of worry coming from some fans and what happened, Michael worked out a plan - End Of Story.

Same thing goes for the O2 dates. Michael wanted BIGGER AND BETTER. There was no holding him back and by all appearances, he got exactly what he asked for. Little did he know, but he probably could have just stood on stage reading from the Yellow Pages and folks would have STILL come out to see him, in my opinion.

 

[crillon]

Did he say that YET?

I'm sure Putnam will ask him, though... Now Putnam will have to fix Phillips's bad jokes...

Edit, now that we know how Brenda got that info that Murray was innocent, maybe Phillips was joking about Brenda's "theory".

He didn't say those exact words, but did testify he was "wrong" about Murray.(I'll see if I can find that Q/A) The presumption being--and this requires reading between the lines--that with time and new information, and of course CM's conviction, he has changed his mind. But, maybe Putnam needs to ask that question directly on cross, just to make it perfectly clear.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind (logically, speaking) could consider the facts of the criminal trial and the compelling testimony of Dr. Schaffer & others and the unanimous jury conviction and think Murray was innocent. And, of course, that wonderful parting verbal lashing CM got from Judge Pastor (made my day!).

 

[bouee]

I agree- I think Phillips def. knew about MJ's perfectionism and high burn rate on production costs, but the health issues and the Dr. Klein "wildcard" is likely what kept him up at night with worry. There were risks AEG could not control and they didn't have the security blanket of an approved insurance policy in place.

I think he was "jittery" about the shows not happening, Michael's health was the least of his concerns IMO, otherwise he would not have reacted the way he did. If he had had more time, or if the shows had been insured for illness at the time, it would have probably been another story. He mismanaged the tour, that was his responsability.

We know from yesterday's testimony that he didn't think it was a psychological issue, he hired a food person,- so the weight was an issue. The physical therapist came back into the picure on 22nd, in spite of Michael refusing one earlier.
When he wrote to Ortega he said "cancelling the shows would hasten Michael's decline"- so he acknoledges there was a decline- .He ignored hougdahl's email (8 weeks, spins) & focused on Ortega. The sleep issue was discussed in his deposition then not anymore on the stand, etc...
According to Karen he put a person in Michael's dressing room on 23rd and 24th (food person ? physio ? someone else ?), Phillips came to see the rehearsals of 23rd and 24th , and said it was Ok if Michael was still cold, because Staple center was freezing cold. A lot of people were wearing shirts or T shirts. What happened to the flu ? Phillips is the 1st person who says that, the others were susprised to see Michael with blankets, except Travis, who thought Michael had...the flu. The flu excuse was actually a good one, he should have stuck to it.
He knew Murray had been there full time , for at least 6 weeks, how come he did not wonder what the doctor was doing ? How come a doctor can be so bad that his patient has been degrading for 8 weeks, and needs a "food person", why can't the full time doctor help with this ?

 

[bouee]

He didn't say those exact words, but did testify he was "wrong" about Murray.(I'll see if I can find that Q/A) The presumption being--and this requires reading between the lines--that with time and new information, and of course CM's conviction, he has changed his mind.

And, I don't see how anyone in their right mind (logically, speaking) could consider the facts of the criminal trial and the compelling testimony of Dr. Schaffer & others and ultimate conviction and think Murray was innocent.

Oh, ok yes I see what you mean. it was when Panish was asking him if he ws lying in the e mail to ortega I think, he said something to that effect, yes, that's right.

 

[bouee]

I think, just my opinion, that Michael would have found a way to keep Murray, with or without AEG's money. The man DEFINITELY had a knack for getting what he wanted.

And when I say he DEFINITELY had knack for getting what he wanted, I'm not talking about "drugs" or anything like that. I talking about in life, whatever that would entail.

Like with Neverland. I remember when their was continued reports, whoa is me reports, that Michael was about to lose Neverland any second. The fans were crying and having a nervous breakdown (some, not all). Everyday it was a cry of worry coming from some fans and what happened, Michael worked out a plan - End Of Story.

Same thing goes for the O2 dates. Michael wanted BIGGER AND BETTER. There was no holding him back and by all appearances, he got exactly what he asked for. Little did he know, but he probably could have just stood on stage reading from the Yellow Pages and folks would have STILL come out to see him, in my opinion.

Yes, that's true. But AEG would not be on trial, and would have had nothing to do with it then.

 

[Bubs]

This is just getting better and better

Michael Jackson’s brothers prep for gig with AEG Live as wrongful death suit against company continues
Jermaine, Tito, Jackie and Marlon Jackson are gearing up to perform at the AEG-owned Staples Center on June 30. A lawyer for the family says the brothers have no other 'options' as AEG owns most key venues in the music industry.

As Michael Jackson’s mother wages her megabucks war against her son’s “This Is It” concert promoter in court, the King of Pop’s brothers are prepping for a gig with the same company.
A lawyer for AEG Live highlighted the off-the-wall twist as the concert giant fights Katherine Jackson's wrongful death lawsuit.

Jermaine, Tito, Jackie and Marlon Jackson are slated to perform at the AEG-owned Staples Center June 30 — less than a week after Michael’s June 25, 2009, death anniversary — as part of a festival produced and promoted by AEG Live, the company’s CEO Randy Phillips testified Tuesday.
“For at least the third time since Michael Jackson’s death and the filing of Katherine Jackson’s lawsuit against AEG Live, Michael Jackson’s brothers, the Jacksons, have chosen to work yet again with AEG Live,” Marvin Putnam, the main lawyer representing AEG against the mom, said in a statement Tuesday.
“Most recently, they agreed to perform as part of the BET Experience scheduled to take place at LA Live later this month,” Putnam continued. “In fact, just this past week the Jacksons specifically requested that AEG Live provide them with a VIP suite during the BET Experience.”

Putnam added that AEG Live has worked to put on concerts with Janet Jackson four times since her brother’s death and the filing her mother’s lawsuit.
One of Katherine Jackson’s lawyers said the brothers are simply dealing with a market reality: AEG has a stranglehold on key venues in the music touring industry.

“What are their options? Stop performing?” lawyer Kevin Boyle asked outside court.
“Hopefully they’ll survive their experience with AEG.”

The upcoming concert is part of a three-day festival for BET (Black Entertainment Television), Phillips said, with other acts including Beyoncé, R. Kelly and New Edition.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...uit-continues-article-1.1370246#ixzz2W1Cnd8gi

I'm sure if they wanted L Rowe could have found them a suitable concert promoter.
Brothers are so desparate and so is Janet.