Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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It looks like Tohme was in the room with Michael and Randy Phillips. Tohme is on the both sides witness list. If he takes the stand he will probably be asked about that day including the slap.

The posters I was talking about earlier, who were wonderig about bruises on Michael's hands that day, they were suspecting Thome.
 
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We don't have enough information about this yet, only NY post and one other, it probably was said but we need to see the whole questioning to obtain an opinion. Shame we have to spend so much on transcript just to understand basically one word, but it's probably worth it. I wish we could afford more, it would make understanding this so much easier.
 
Yes, transcripts and whole chain of e mails to get the context.
 
Time will help in that regard. If there's more to the chain of the emails, Putnam will show it during cross. and if Tohme is a witness to Phillips's interactions with Michael on that day, he can testify to it.

Currently this is a piece of a puzzle, we will have the whole picture in the end.
 
The times of the mails are also important imo, the quote 'Im not there yet' indicates to me they were typed as events unfolded, in the heat of the moment and maybe with a huge lack of patience. Regardless, if it all was as Phillips is testifying to then he has no right to call anyone else a drama queen!
 
. Regardless, if it all was as Phillips is testifying to then he has no right to call anyone else a drama queen!

Lol , yes !!

I think it was from that transcript, Panish asked Phillips if had a tendency to exaggerate thing, and Phillips said no.

I thought that was funny...
 
^^

nice summary but you omitted Phillips tried to explain it as a coach with a football team getting ready to leave.. I don't know if he was stopped by Panish or the transcript posted omits his explanation ( we will see the full one when we get it ourselves) but Phillips is trying to say that it was a butt slap which as I said before is common in athletics & performance in USA.

If it was just a friendly slap on the butt, why would he write that down in an e-mail? Especially in that context of being angry with him.
 
If it was just a friendly slap on the butt, why would he write that down in an e-mail? Especially in that context of being angry with him.

I agree the butt slap is hard to believe. Whatever happened, Phillips is probably twisting the truth, for some reason.
 
I don't say I believe Phillips , it's just he says it was a butt slap.

Also don't forget that it is very common to slap someone on the face when they are drunk or unconscious to wake them up, to sober them.

So even if he slapped MJ it might be just to wake him up and not to harm him or not because of anger and so on.
 
Here is what I'm thinking : the problem for Phillips would be the bigger picture. He can't say he saw Michael drunk/out of it for some reason : that wouldn't go well with the "do we know if it's chemical' e mail of the 19th/20th june, and the mail from Branca asking the same question+ all the other e mails he received those days. He would be confirming he saw Michael under the influence of something.
He needs to stick the psychological issue version.

His problem now is that butt slap is a very poor excuse, IMO.

He'd better give a (3rd ?) version : Michael was so paralyzed by fright, having a meltdown, and he slapped him to "wake him up", to bring him back to his senses, not out of anger.
 
So are the options here are that either Phillips exaggerated or that Michael was a drunk mess. Great.
 
Question

do you really think that if Phillips slapped Michael on the face that Michael would stay around, go on with the announcement, rehearsals and concerts?

I don't think so. But what if he didn't really remember if he was out of it in some way? I don't know. I find it confusing because he looked fine at the press conference. To read these behind the scenes information is a lot to take in.
 
So are the options here are that either Phillips exaggerated or that Michael was a drunk mess. Great.

well I guess you can choose to believe Phillips and think it's was a slap on the butt that meant "go get them tiger" as an encouragement - the good scenario

or you have two other options - the bad scenarios

-either Michael was so drunk or out of it that Phillips slapped him to wake him / sober him up

- or Michael was "self-loathing" and nervous and so on, Phillips slapped him in an attempt to say "snap out of it".

However to me thinking that Michael would accept a slap on the face and do nothing about it is unbelievable. So even if there was a slap on the face, I would tend to think it meant Michael was too wasted and so out of it to realize or remember the slap afterwards.
 
The thing is if Michael was too out of it to remember it, I'm not sure a slap and a cold shower would have been enough to get him to come back to his senses.

Yeah, i know, I'm just adding a little bit of confusion... I'm off to bed, don't worry.
 
I don't think so. But what if he didn't really remember if he was out of it in some way? I don't know. I find it confusing because he looked fine at the press conference. To read these behind the scenes information is a lot to take in.

But it happens a lot in show business world. And the promoters and managers have to deal with drunked artists all the time. I don't think Philips could act any differently. In the end Michael was grateful for the help in making himself presentable during this conference. You have to remember that Philips worked in this business for a long time dealing with many famous clients. I don't think he was "shy" in MJ's presence like most of commenting fans here would be.
 
Basically! :no:

I don't see how this bodes well for AEG even though they haven't presented their case just yet.

Tbh I only really care for how this bodes for Michael. I'm not a fan that buries her head but it's not how I would like to remember him.

well I guess you can choose to believe Phillips and think it's was a slap on the butt that meant "go get them tiger" as an encouragement - the good scenario

or you have two other options - the bad scenarios

-either Michael was so drunk or out of it that Phillips slapped him to wake him / sober him up

- or Michael was "self-loathing" and nervous and so on, Phillips slapped him in an attempt to say "snap out of it".

However to me thinking that Michael would accept a slap on the face and do nothing about it is unbelievable. So even if there was a slap on the face, I would tend to think it meant Michael was too wasted and so out of it to realize or remember the slap afterwards.

Honestly, I did think Michael wasn't quite himself that day but I highly doubt he would have that far out of it and manage to 'sober' up enough.

And yes, I feel strongly that Michael would not accept someone slapping him in bad way.
 
But it happens a lot in show business world. And the promoters and managers have to deal with drunked artists all the time. I don't think Philips could act any differently. In the end Michael was grateful for the help in making himself presentable during this conference. You have to remember that Philips worked in this business for a long time dealing with many famous clients. I don't think he was "shy" in MJ's presence like most of commenting fans here would be.

But how does that explain Michael? Accusing him of being drunk doesn't excuse him slapping him in the rump... I don't give a doggone if it's a normal thing in sports or what...
 
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These AEG folks are simply not believable and I think the jury will see that. One says MJ was drunk but the other said he wasn't. Philips yelled and slapped him now he says it was just a couch thing...Yea sure! How bout don't touch him at all cause that is crossin the line. Anyways, I doubt MJ would let that happened as well but, who the hell knows. He didn't trust Tohme and now he was supposedly there with Randy during that slap? Yea I'm sure he'll clear things up, Not! He can't be trusted either and MJ sure as hell didn't! This whole thing just continues to show (at least to me) how AEG even before tickets sells were announced they were already worried about how the show will go on and screw how MJ is doin. Hard to miss that and I doubt the jury will!
 
These AEG folks are simply not believable and I think the jury will see that. One says MJ was drunk but the other said he wasn't. Philips yelled and slapped him now he says it was just a couch thing...Yea sure! How bout don't touch him at all cause that is crossin the line. Anyways, I doubt MJ would let that happened as well but, who the hell knows. He didn't trust Tohme and now he was supposedly there with Randy during that slap? Yea I'm sure he'll clear things up, Not! He can't be trusted either and MJ sure as hell didn't! This whole thing just continues to show (at least to me) how AEG even before tickets sells were announced they were already worried about how the show will go on and screw how MJ is doin. Hard to miss that and I doubt the jury will!

This is one of the few times I wished Joe was in court because I wanted to hear his reaction to Randy saying in his e-mail that he slapped him in the a$$...lol
 
Re the rehearsals--which I think is important to know who was behind the insistence that MJ rehearse and why--was it RP? PG said he didn't even expect it and he wasn't concerned. Was it KO. Re KO's position--as I understaood it from the CM trial and from KO's testimony--he and MJ were Co-Directors of TII. They spent a lot of time together planning the whole concept of the tour. They also agreed that there would be a 'making of' movie of TII as part of the revenue-producing stream, and that's why they had the cameras there, and also were able to produce TII after MJ died. So--was there an agreement (verbal) re the 'making of' that MJ would show up for rehearsals, be back-stage, etc, so as to see him involved in the production, and if he stopped attending rehearsals, that project couldn't happen?? Thus, maybe KO was one of the people, in addition to RP, who was insisting that MJ rehearse.
 
I know no one will see it this way, but that butt slap sounds like the ones you give to mean "let's get a move here! On your feet!" I have six brothers and I have to say they don't hit faces, but the butt or a punch in the arm. I don't really see men slapping men's faces, but I see girls do it. I guess when I read the transcript I will see better, but it sounds as though Michael was not ready & maybe did not want to go. Enter gruffy, mean Randy who sees it is late and this guy is not ready. He throws him in the shower, screams at him, and slaps the butt to get a move on. I don't see anything wrong with this. If it was me I would add a couple of shakes on the shoulder too, to mean "get a grip on yourself."

About the bruises, how could people see bruises on Michael's arm when Michael wore long sleeves that day? I feel that after people hear bits and pieces form Randy about Michael being drunk, they let their imagination run wild. They first claim he was staggering up the ramp, that he was shakey, now I hear about bruises. To me Michel goes up the ramp regularly and laughs after hearing all the love; he repeats himself to stress that this is really the last tour; he gives some poses; says bye and leaves. I see nothing in that video to show he was drunk, had self-loathing, & did not want to do the announcement. I am not saying that he was not drunk, etc., when Randy found him, but that his behavior does not tell me he was.

I am thinking that AEG owner hired Randy partly due to his personality & feeling he is the type of nasty guy who can pull something together if a problem arises. I am trying to look at this from a multi-million dollar perspective. I am responsible for my company to get this show going, and any problems can cause the company to lose money & our prestige. The artist will lose money too. I think what Randy did would be done by any manager/assistant/family member who knows what is at stake & know how to get someone in such a state ready. It worked because Michel showed up and gave his announcement. I don't think Randy is the type that goes to Michel and gently whispers: "Come on dear, you have to get ready now. Let me help you sweetie."

I think Randy must have screamed and fought with many staff/artists in his career. With a personality like that he had to.

Still with all the nasty e-mails & behaviors coming from Treel, Freck, & Randy, I do not see evidence that AEG hired Muarry yet--still waiting. Cross of Randy should be interesting.
 
Might not but it seems like some were acting like Joe Jackson with Michael... particularly Randy. Patting him in the butt and rushing him to the shower? I mean is that to suggest that Michael was in such a sorry state, he needed that kind of roughness? I don't know if I buy that yet, Petra... not yet anyway. I wasn't there but from the way it's worded, that's just...ridiculous. No one was suggesting he should've been a little softer but this wasn't cool either imho.
 
I know no one will see it this way, but that butt slap sounds like the ones you give to mean "let's get a move here! On your feet!" I have six brothers and I have to say they don't hit faces, but the butt or a punch in the arm. I don't really see men slapping men's faces, but I see girls do it. I guess when I read the transcript I will see better, but it sounds as though Michael was not ready & maybe did not want to go. Enter gruffy, mean Randy who sees it is late and this guy is not ready. He throws him in the shower, screams at him, and slaps the butt to get a move on. I don't see anything wrong with this. If it was me I would add a couple of shakes on the shoulder too, to mean "get a grip on yourself."

About the bruises, how could people see bruises on Michael's arm when Michael wore long sleeves that day? I feel that after people hear bits and pieces form Randy about Michael being drunk, they let their imagination run wild. They first claim he was staggering up the ramp, that he was shakey, now I hear about bruises. To me Michel goes up the ramp regularly and laughs after hearing all the love; he repeats himself to stress that this is really the last tour; he gives some poses; says bye and leaves. I see nothing in that video to show he was drunk, had self-loathing, & did not want to do the announcement. I am not saying that he was not drunk, etc., when Randy found him, but that his behavior does not tell me he was.

I am thinking that AEG owner hired Randy partly due to his personality & feeling he is the type of nasty guy who can pull something together if a problem arises. I am trying to look at this from a multi-million dollar perspective. I am responsible for my company to get this show going, and any problems can cause the company to lose money & our prestige. The artist will lose money too. I think what Randy did would be done by any manager/assistant/family member who knows what is at stake & know how to get someone in such a state ready. It worked because Michel showed up and gave his announcement. I don't think Randy is the type that goes to Michel and gently whispers: "Come on dear, you have to get ready now. Let me help you sweetie."

I think Randy must have screamed and fought with many staff/artists in his career. With a personality like that he had to.

Still with all the nasty e-mails & behaviors coming from Treel, Freck, & Randy, I do not see evidence that AEG hired Muarry yet--still waiting. Cross of Randy should be interesting.

I have looked at the press conference where Michael announced the This Is It concerts many, many times and he did NOT look drunk. He did NOT stagger. In fact, Michael walked with a SEXY SWAGGER that I have never seen before. He did not slur his words,he did not falter. Where in the hell is this crap coming from that he was drunk? IF was as drunk as these Randy Phillips claimed, there is no way in hell that Michael would have been as poised as he was at that conference. He greeted the fans, he made the announcement, etc., . Btw, I agree with EVERYTHING that Petrarose posted. All one has to do is to look at the video of the press conference and you will see that what Petrarose said is absolutely true. Maybe Michael had a drink before he did the press conference, that doesn't mean that he was drunk.
 
^^

nice summary but you omitted Phillips tried to explain it as a coach with a football team getting ready to leave
.. I don't know if he was stopped by Panish or the transcript posted omits his explanation ( we will see the full one when we get it ourselves) but Phillips is trying to say that it was a butt slap which as I said before is common in athletics & performance in USA.

It just seems like a very odd thing to do--not sinister or disrespectful--just inappropriate.
 
LastTear;3840637 said:
And yes, I feel strongly that Michael would not accept someone slapping him in bad way.

Or, another option : Michael was aware of the slap, but understood it was not meant to harm him. If he was that drunk/out of it, it would have shown at the press conference I think.
I never had the feeling he was drunk or under the influence of something that day, I just thought he was nervous, and I didn't think much of it at the time. It seemed normal to me that he was nervous, it was a big day for him.


jamba;3840734 said:
Re the rehearsals--which I think is important to know who was behind the insistence that MJ rehearse and why--was it RP? PG said he didn't even expect it and he wasn't concerned. Was it KO. Re KO's position--as I understaood it from the CM trial and from KO's testimony--he and MJ were Co-Directors of TII. They spent a lot of time together planning the whole concept of the tour. They also agreed that there would be a 'making of' movie of TII as part of the revenue-producing stream, and that's why they had the cameras there, and also were able to produce TII after MJ died. So--was there an agreement (verbal) re the 'making of' that MJ would show up for rehearsals, be back-stage, etc, so as to see him involved in the production, and if he stopped attending rehearsals, that project couldn't happen?? Thus, maybe KO was one of the people, in addition to RP, who was insisting that MJ rehearse.

Rehearsals were KO's job, as per Alif Sankey's testimony, and I think PG said that too, it also shows in the emails.
KO was responsible for the schedule, and that schedule would have to suit Michael as well.
KO / RP said at CM trial that during the june 20th meeting Michael and KO talked about a schedule or an organisation that would suit them both. It sounded like there was a misunderstanding between them about that.
So far it sounds like it was KO who raised concerns about Michael not showing up for rehearsals. I'm not sure he was "insisting", so far I would say he was concerned.
PG said he didn'think Michael not showing up was a problem, Phillips said it was a problem for him.
It seems there was a meeting mid june (intervention, tough love) and KO & RP were there, not PG, according to Karen.

From Karen's transcripts :
Karen mentions that once Michael was late for rehearsal and Ortega and Phillips went to Michael’s house to talk to him. After that meeting Karen says she was instructed to not to listen to Michael and listen and take directions from Phillips. Karen says she was told to get Michael on stage and put the ear piece in his ear even though he did not want that. Karen testifies she felt torn about whom to listen to.

Karen says Michael was again late for a rehearsal around June 16-18 and Ortega and Phillips again went to talk to Michael. Karen says she thinks Michael and Murray was at this meeting. Karen says she talked to Ortega after this meeting but the some of questioning ends due to hearsay. She says she was told not to listen to what Michael was telling her and show Michael tough love.

Karen says on June 18 Michael came to rehearsal late and he looked stoic. Karen says Michael and she did not talk much and Michael looked frightened.

Karen testifies that on June 23rd and June 24th Michael was doing better and she felt a little bit relief. She says Michael was still cold and thin and repeating stuff on june 23rd. Karen says she learned Randy Phillips put a person in Michael’s dressing room. She says she doesn’t know why Phillips put that person there and she testifies that Michael was bothered and unhappy by it

Karen says at one point she was told to communicate her concerns directly to Frank Dileo. Karen says it was her understanding that Dileo was working for AEG. Karen says Dileo was the person she was supposed to go and she believed Dileo was going to report these concerns to Phillips

Reading her transcripts again, she's saying that at first she would take instructions from Phillips, Dileo, Ortega and Michael. Then , around mid june, she was told not to listen to Michael, only to Phillips and Dileo. So, maybe not to Ortega either (she doesn't specifically say that).

Then, later we have this (june 23rd)
Email on 6/23/09 from Timm Wooley to Bob Taylor (insurance broker): Kenny Ortega has responsibility only for the show content and structure Randy Phillips and Dr. Murray are responsible for MJ rehearsal and attendance schedule. Looks like there might have been an issue in KO either not being demanding enough.

So there was an evolution in Kenny's role.

Karen also says that Michael showing up late or not showing up at rehearsals started when he was supposed to be on stage, she thought it was psychological at first.

She did say that Phillips told her Michael was drunk at TII press conference.
From the news thread :
Faye said she raised her concerns once in June with AEG CEO Randy Phillips. He told her, "Yeah, this is bad. It's not so good. I had to scrape Michael off the floor in London at the announcement because he was so drunk," she said.(CNN)

I can't find the part of her testimony where she said Michael was afraid of DiLeo ? Did we dream it ? I thought she said he was afraid of Dileo and Phillips.

Petrarose;3840793 said:
About the bruises, how could people see bruises on Michael's arm when Michael wore long sleeves that day? I feel that after people hear bits and pieces form Randy about Michael being drunk, they let their imagination run wild.

It was his hand, not his arms. His left hand.

And not their imagination either, unless the photos were photoshopped. But that doesn't tell us how Michael had this bruises. It could have been a few days before, not specifically that day.

There are other clearer pictures of the bruises, but they are on hoax websites, so i'd rather quote this one, from CNN :
jackson640x360.jpg


Petrarose;3840793 said:
I am thinking that AEG owner hired Randy partly due to his personality & feeling he is the type of nasty guy who can pull something together if a problem arises. I am trying to look at this from a multi-million dollar perspective.

I agree with this. But being a bully is not the recipe for a great boss IMO. Especially if artists and vendors don't like him.
 
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Yeah patting a guy you think is drunk to get on the stage to do a speech or into a shower when you're at the hotel is normal procedure. He lost me with that drunk nonsense so that kills his entire excuse of why he did what he did. Can you imagine someone doing the same thing (and it probably was) with Elvis Presley and Marvin Gaye who obviously were intoxicated on different substances at their final tours (Elvis on pills and Marvin on coke) and then excusing it as "football-type protocol"? They're still making Michael out to be this depressed, rambling drunk pill popping drug addict as if he was your typical rock star with typical rock star problems (i.e. the Presley/Gaye angle).
 
It's not clear those bruises are actually bruises, could be pen or even dirt, even if they are bruises it doesn't mean he got them because someone 'roughed him up'
 
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