Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[bouee]

Frankly I don't know how the kids feel about the trial. They might have heard /seen stuff that would make them want to do something for their dad, maybe that's what thy think it's about. Who knows, really ?

As for Paris, is it possible that if she is not well enough, the judge keeps her from taking the stand ? For example, if testyfing or the trial are some of the issues that led her to try to kill herself, is it possible that doctors advise against it or something like that ?

Her depo could be used if what she has to say is essential.

 

[Tygger]

Very interesting that the executors did not see reason to file a suit against AEG only to find out Phillips was lunching with Tohme. I wonder if the executors knew an AEG employee could be helping Tohme in their suit against him.

Michael’s next of kin is his children and then his parents; four of the five are his beneficiaries. The children belong on the lawsuit. Any damages awarded for their lost, they more than deserve and horrifically earned. They have already done what was necessary, give depositions. They do NOT have to testify. The youngest was already excused and it was previously reported (by Radar Online in March) that only the oldest would testify. AEG was very willing to use certain parts of the doctor’s police interview as he prefers to plea the Fifth Amendment and they were denied. They are free to use both children’s deposition the way the plaintiffs’ lawyers used Hom’s deposition.

Bouee, I agree the plaintiffs’ would benefit more from the children’s testimony but, they can use the depositions as well as they did with Hom’s. If the defendants call the children as witness, it shows weakness.

The Jackson lawyer has (IMO) done a good job of showing AEG's lack of interest in MJ's well being, but he hasn't proven that AEG are responsible in any way for MJ's death. After all, it was the doctor's own negligence that directly caused MJ's death - that has already been proven in a court of law - and there is very little evidence to indicate that AEG had employed him or had any responsibility for his actions. There is no signed contract. The only evidence I have read about is the email where Gongaware says AEG are paying his salary, but I don't believe that is enough.

Bobmoo79, the below is just from Phillips testimony 6/6 and not the other contradictory testimony given by other AEG employees.

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 28m
"Most of the artists we don't deal with their personal physician," Phillips explained.
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 29m
Panish: Do you normally carry around all the contact numbers of your artist's personal physicians?
Phillips: Absolutely not!
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 29m
Panish went thru some of the calls Phillips made. On 6/18/09, Gongaware sent an email to Phillips with all of Dr. Murray's phone numbers.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 4m
Randy Phillips also tried to make the point before the end of the day that The Murray meeting was set up because of Dileo.
Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 14m
Phillips and then-CEO of AEG Tim Leiweke planned a meeting for June 20th with Conrad Murray.
(We didn't hear testimony about mtg today)
Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 15m
Panish showed the sequence of emails that Phillips received from Hougdahl and Ortega. Phillips informed other AEG execs that night.
Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 16m
This was sent the night Jackson was shivering and had to be sent home.
"We have a real problem here," Phillips wrote his boss that night.
Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 17m
Bugzee's email titled 'trouble at the Front' opened with him saying he didn't want to be a "drama queen."
Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 19m
He focused on emails we've seen before from production manager John "Bugzee" Hougdahl and director Kenny Ortega.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 8m
Other AEG witnesses have said there was no requirement for Jackson to rehearse.
Expand
Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 9m
Phillips was asked what he meant about the "breach" statement.
He said he felt Jackson was obligated to rehearse.
Expand
Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 11m
The manager, Michael Kane, quickly replied, “And I thought it couldn’t get worse.”
Expand
Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 12m
"This is why it is impossible to advance any $$$. He may, unfortunately, be in anticipatory breach at this point" _ Phillips wrote.
Expand
Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 12m
There was one email from Phillips from morning of June 20, 2009 that I hadn't seen before in court. It was sent to MJ's business manager.

Notice Phillips did not say "any more $$$$." I believe it is because most monies were preproduction costs and not advances as the doctor's salary should have been.

Jackson lawyers questioned Phillips about his e-mail exchanges with Michael Kane -- Jackson's business manager -- when Kane asked for an advance, which was provided for in Jackson's contract with AEG Live for his "This Is It" tour.
Phillips said he was concerned that because Jackson had missed so many rehearsals, the show would not be ready for its debut in London on July 13, 2009.
"This is why it is impossible to advance any $$$," Phillips wrote to Kane on June 20, 2009. "He may, unfortunately, be in an anticipatory breach at this point."
"And I thought it couldn't get worse," Kane replied.
"It could," Phillips said. "(Show director) Kenny Ortega could quit."
Phillips' testimony that he believed Jackson was contractually obligated to attend rehearsals contradicted AEG Live Co-CEO Paul Gongware's previous testimony that Jackson was not required to rehearse.
Phillips acknowledged that by June 20, 2009, he was worried the production would not be ready on time
Kane, in an e-mail to Phillips, offered to help motivate Jackson to get to rehearsals. "Would a financial coming to Jesus speech help or add to his pressure?" Kane asked.
"It would help," Phillips replied. "At this point, we need to break through. I'm going to call his doctor to discuss."
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/06/showbiz/jackson-death-trial/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter

 

[jamba]

Very interesting that the executors did not see reason to file a suit against AEG only to find out Phillips was lunching with Tohme. I wonder if the executors knew an AEG employee could be helping Tohme in their suit against him.

Michael’s next of kin is his children and then his parents; four of the five are his beneficiaries. The children belong on the lawsuit. Any damages awarded for their lost, they more than deserve and horrifically earned. They have already done what was necessary, give depositions. They do NOT have to testify. The youngest was already excused and it was previously reported (by Radar Online in March) that only the oldest would testify. AEG was very willing to use certain parts of the doctor’s police interview as he prefers to plea the Fifth Amendment and they were denied. They are free to use both children’s deposition the way the plaintiffs’ lawyers used Hom’s deposition.

Bouee, I agree the plaintiffs’ would benefit more from the children’s testimony but, they can use the depositions as well as they did with Hom’s. If the defendants call the children as witness, it shows weakness.



Bobmoo79, the below is just from Phillips testimony 6/6 and not the other contradictory testimony given by other AEG employees.







Notice Phillips did not say "any more $$$$." I believe it is because most monies were preproduction costs and not advances as the doctor's salary should have been.

I agree there is a contradiction between what PG said re rehearsals not needed or customary in MJ tours and this idea that Phillips has re anticipatory breach and refusing the advance. This needs to be cleared up. Other testimony was that Ortega wanted MJ to rehearse. Who was ultimately in charge here--was it RP? He seems to be the most upper-level exec, right?

On the other hand, this does not prove that pushing MJ to rehearsals directly (or even indirectly) led to his death. CM simply did not pay attention when MJ stopped breathing while administering propofol under disastrous circumstances with no proper monitoring device or resuscitation equipment. Being in debt had nothing to do with his inattention or lack of knowledge. On top of that, in the trial Shafer testified that calling 911 immediately could have saved MJ's life, as well as a simple 'chin lift' for opening the airway. CM also according to Shafer probably had 'close calls' with MJ previously during the 6 week period he administered propofol in this unprofessional manner--before any pressure to rehearse appeared.

Are you seriously saying that AEG pressure for MJ to rehearse on stage was a direct cause of his death?

 

[Tygger]

Are you seriously saying that AEG pressure for MJ to rehearse on stage was a direct cause of his death?

AEG put pressure on Michael to perform more shows that contracted. They allowed the budget to mushroom past the original agreed upon amount which Michael was liable for. They also pressured him to rehearse. Ortega and the doctor were in charge of Michael's rehearsal schedule. When Phillips could not get Michael to rehearse, he called the doctor.

From the doctor's police interview:

n the two-hour recording of the police interview, heard publicly for the first time, Dr Conrad Murray can be heard describing the events of the night that Michael Jackson died.

He says that Jackson had returned home from tour rehearsals and complained that he could not get to sleep.

"Dr Conrad, I have these rehearsals to perform, I must be ready for the show in England...I cannot function if I don't get the sleep", Conrad Murray says Jackson had said to him.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...Murrays-police-interview-played-in-court.html

 

[bouee]

I agree there is a contradiction between what PG said re rehearsals not needed or customary in MJ tours and this idea that Phillips has re anticipatory breach and refusing the advance. This needs to be cleared up. Other testimony was that Ortega wanted MJ to rehearse. Who was ultimately in charge here--was it RP? He seems to be the most upper-level exec, right?

On the other hand, this does not prove that pushing MJ to rehearsals directly (or even indirectly) led to his death. CM simply did not pay attention when MJ stopped breathing while administering propofol under disastrous circumstances with no proper monitoring device or resuscitation equipment. Being in debt had nothing to do with his inattention or lack of knowledge. On top of that, in the trial Shafer testified that calling 911 immediately could have saved MJ's life, as well as a simple 'chin lift' for opening the airway. CM also according to Shafer probably had 'close calls' with MJ previously during the 6 week period he administered propofol in this unprofessional manner--before any pressure to rehearse appeared.

Are you seriously saying that AEG pressure for MJ to rehearse on stage was a direct cause of his death?

Technically reahearsals were not AEG's business, as it was not in the contract. It was Ortega's and Michael's jobs to put the show together. Ortega is not AEG, he is an independant contractor, Michael was more like a partner.

I said earlier that I thought that PG's answers about reharsals, saying it was not his business, were pure hypocrisy. Because in real life, for the type of shows Michael wanted to do, it's clear you need to rehearse. At least Phillips is honest about that.

It will be very intersting to hear Ortega, and see if anything comes out of Frank's emails, because AEG's theory so far sound like they're saying "Ortega was worried, not us". Now it's Frank who called the meeting with the doctor. Of course. Then why do we have PG's email on june 20th saying "take the doctor with you ?", why do we have that mail from Timm Wooley "dr Murray is responsible for Michael's rehearsals appearance, Ortega is not tough enough" . AEG sound like they're saying Ortega, and maybe Frank, created the problems. Rehearsal's schedule was Ortega's responsibility, Ortega was worried about Michael, not us, Frank requested the meetings with the doctor,not us etc..

Ivy posted something a few days ago about supervising a doctor. AEG can not be held responsible for the doctors mistakes , ie treatment and the way it was given: they are not doctors, and could not understand that. So the facts that Murray used propofol, set up a drip and left Michael,did not call 911, are not relevant to this case.
Look at the verdict forms. Jacksons are saying "were the defendants a factor in Michael's death" . AEG says, at the end of the verdict forms "who is responsible for Michael's death" and name everyone involved, except the kids of course, and...Murray. AEG seem to be saying "we didn't know about propofol, no one ever did, even when Michal used it before ". There is a nonsense here. Jacksons are not saying AEG directly caused Michael's death, and the judge is not saying that either. AEG are the one who use this argument and yet, they don't want to blame Murray, when actually they could. So the question is, why ?

I understand it's disturbing to see the Jacksons use the addict argument and doing tghis, especially considering their history, and the fact that katherine refused Murray's restitution. AEG will probably be doing worse, saying the same things and worse, and arguing they couldn't guess it was propofol, when they don't need to say that. That was one of my points earlier when I said not everything the Jacksons do can excuse what AEG is doing.

It's about negligent hiring , supervising and retaining.

At this point, I can still change my mind, but I think the Jacksons have a point :

AEG at least co hired Murray (cash advance vs contract), treated the doctor as an independant contractor (meeting with him, calling him, etc ), making it it clear to both Michael and the doctor that they wanted Michael to rehearse, even making Murray responsible for rehearsals attendance, - that maybe is supervising- and not considering Murray's role as Michael's health was declining, that would be the retaining part.

As for PG personally sued I don't have a clear opinion on that. PG seems like a nice guy who was very nervous on the stand, and twisted his story a lot, to the point that everything is not clear about what he did. Maybe other witnesses will make it clearer. Since the beginning of his testimony, I've had the feeling he's covering up for his boss.

I suspect RP understood that Murray was doing weird stuff. Not what exactly, not knowing the risks, but I suspect he chose that path because there was not enough time left, and a money issue.

The retaining part and Rp's role would be the reason why AEG can't put the blame on Murray : it was too obvious something was wrong with him. The "we were convinced by Murray" wouldn't fly, aspecially in RP's case.

 

[LastTear]

AEG put pressure on Michael to perform more shows that contracted. They allowed the budget to mushroom past the original agreed upon amount which Michael was liable for. They also pressured him to rehearse. Ortega and the doctor were in charge of Michael's rehearsal schedule. When Phillips could not get Michael to rehearse, he called the doctor.
:

By that train of thought Michael would have died anyway. If he couldn't cope with the pressure of rehearsing then it's highly unlikely he would have coped with the pressure of performing a full concert.

I guess we will never see any hard proof that AEG put or didn't put undue pressure on Michael for the extra shows. AEG will give their version, Thome his but Michael is not here and neither is Frank, so we will never know for absolute sure.

 

[bouee]

I agree there is a contradiction between what PG said re rehearsals not needed or customary in MJ tours and this idea that Phillips has re anticipatory breach and refusing the advance. This needs to be cleared up. Other testimony was that Ortega wanted MJ to rehearse. Who was ultimately in charge here--was it RP? He seems to be the most upper-level exec, right?

RP was afraid that Michael would eventually not do the shows.
Maybe at first, RP thought it was due due to stage fright or some psychological issue, and that pressuring Michael would help.

 

[LastTear]

Technically reahearsals were not AEG's business, as it was not in the contract. It was Ortega's and Michael's jobs to put the show together. Ortega is not AEG, he is an independant contractor, Michael was more like a partner.

I said earlier that I thought that PG's answers about reharsals, saying it was not his business, were pure hypocrisy. Because in real life, for the type of shows Michael wanted to do, it's clear you need to rehearse. At least Phillips is honest about that.

Yes and AEG got involved in the issue of Michael not rehearsing because of reports from Kenny, if they he had not made his concerns clear to them they might not have been any the wiser, I don't see how laying out how different roles people play in getting this all together is hypocrisy?

It will be very intersting to hear Ortega, and see if anything comes out of Frank's emails, because AEG's theory so far sound like they're saying "Ortega was worried, not us". Now it's Frank who called the meeting with the doctor. Of course. Then why do we have PG's email on june 20th saying "take the doctor with you ?", why do we have that mail from Timm Wooley "dr Murray is responsible for Michael's rehearsals appearance, Ortega is not tough enough" . AEG sound like they're saying Ortega, and maybe Frank, created the problems. Rehearsal's schedule was Ortega's responsibility, Ortega was worried about Michael, not us, Frank requested the meetings with the doctor,not us etc..

Yes, I'm interested to hear this as well.

 

[bouee]

I think PG's answers saying AEG were not involved in reheharsals in hypocrisy : they were interested in what was going on at rehearsals, which sounds normal to me. That's why Ortega contacted them when he thought there were problems.

 

[LastTear]

I think PG's answers saying AEG were not involved in reheharsals in hypocrisy : they were interested in what was going on at rehearsals, which sounds normal to me. That's why Ortega contacted them when he thought there were problems.

Isn't he simply saying that usually they are not involved but became so after Kenny raised concerns? Perhaps I have missed this bit of testimony, was the exact quote in the news thread?

 

[bouee]

Isn't he simply saying that usually they are not involved but became so after Kenny raised concerns? Perhaps I have missed this bit of testimony, was the exact quote in the news thread?

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...mony-Summary?p=3836677&viewfull=1#post3836677

Gongaware: The reason MJ wanted to delay the 1st show was he wanted more time to rehearse in the O2 Arena where the show would take place. Gongaware said MJ and Kenny Ortega would decide the rehearsal schedule. Gongaware explained MJ didn't have to attend rehearsals, since it was not part of his deal. He said they never require an artist to rehearse. "I didn't have any expectation," Gongaware said regarding MJ rehearsing.(ABC7) Gongaware said there wasn’t a requirement for Jackson to rehearse. Said he’s never seen a requirement for musicial artist to rehearse. (AP) He said that during the HIStory tour, MJ didn't rehearse, nailed it.

 

[LastTear]

^^^ Thank you. Yes I did see that, I thought you were talking about Phillips, I didn't read properly. I do apologise, trying to take too much in too quickly.

 

[bouee]

^^^ Thank you. Yes I did see that, I thought you were talking about Phillips, I didn't read properly. I do apologise, trying to take too much in too quickly.

Thanks, no problem
it is actually confusing sometimes..

 

[Bubs]

I'm confused all of Michael's managers in 2009 :scratch:
The name Kane popped up yesterday?
Michael had Tohme, DiLeo, Kane, Branca ans who else?
And what was their job description?
----------------------------------------
Panish made a mistake in one exhibit and Phillips reacted immediately. "See, we all make mistakes," Phillips said.
Panish quickly responded "I haven't made 50 of them" to which Phillips said "I don't know, I haven't watched the entire trial."

I have to say, RP seems to be quick witted man.

 

[bouee]

I'm confused all of Michael's managers in 2009 :scratch:
The name Kane popped up yesterday?
Michael had Tohme, DiLeo, Kane, Branca ans who else?
And what was their job description?

Kane's name is familiar, is he still involved with the estate ??

My understand ing from yesterday's testimony is that Kane is a business manager, more into finances. Branca is a lawyer, Tohme/Dileo more day to day managers, involved in Mickael's deals (here TII). I guess all of them worked together.

 

[Big Apple2]

Once you bring a lawsuit you should pretty much be ready to be deposed and called a witness. Also in California age is not a factor, any child regardless of how young they are can be called to testify / deposed as long as they can understand the questions, can express themselves clearly and knows the difference between truth and lie.

EXACTLY!

That's why when you hear these celebrities start screaming "I'm gonna sue," but they never do, because they know they will have to be deposed and then they "might" have to take the witness stand and who wants that. LOL! The fear of any secrets being exposed is to much for some. Now don't get me wrong, some famous folks do make good on their threats to sue, BUT not many.

 

[ivy]

As for Paris, is it possible that if she is not well enough, the judge keeps her from taking the stand ? For example, if testyfing or the trial are some of the issues that led her to try to kill herself, is it possible that doctors advise against it or something like that ? Her depo could be used if what she has to say is essential.

It's going to depend on the situation and the judge. First we will see if the parties will call her to the stand. If they do we will see if other side will object to it. Then probably a doctors note will be given to the judge. Judge can decide anything from playing her deposition, close down the courtroom to the public, and even decide she needs to take the stand. We will wait and see.

Very interesting that the executors did not see reason to file a suit against AEG only to find out Phillips was lunching with Tohme. I wonder if the executors knew an AEG employee could be helping Tohme in their suit against him.

It's customary to meet & interview the parties before they testify. Phillips also said he met with the Estate. So it looks like both parties were talking to Phillips before Estate & Tohme labor commissioner hearing.

I have to say, RP seems to be quick witted man.

yes he is, interesting personality.

 

[bouee]

It's going to depend on the situation and the judge. First we will see if the parties will call her to the stand. If they do we will see if other side will object to it. Then probably a doctors note will be given to the judge. Judge can decide anything from playing her deposition, close down the courtroom to the public, and even decide she needs to take the stand. We will wait and see.

Thanks.
If testifying is an issue for Paris, I was hoping that a quick decision could be made, so that she can put that behind her.

 

[ivy]

Thanks.
If testifying is an issue for Paris, I was hoping that a quick decision could be made, so that she can put that behind her.

I too hope that she doesn't testify and they just play her deposition video. Let's keep out fingers crossed that she doesn't need to take the stand.

 

[AliCat]

June 20, 2009

Jackson’s business manager, Michael Kane, emailed Phillips, asking for the advance (of $1 million). AEG already had lent the singer more than $30 million for production costs on “This Is It,” settling a lawsuit in Bahrain and for rent on a Holmby Hills mansion.

Phillips replied, “This is why it is impossible to advance any $$$. He may, unfortunately be in anticipitory (sic) breach at this point.”

Phillips said he thought Jackson might be preparing to break his contract by not showing up for rehearsals.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-michael-jackson-trial-20130607,0,6635305.story

So this is how Michael Jackson settled out of Court with the Prince from Bahrain. I can see Randy Phillips side in this, in that Michael Jackson's reputation was about spending money, but not about paying his bills. Also, Katherine Jackson was supported by Michael and we have read that Katherine's home was going into foreclosure on Hayvenhurst in Encino the same time as Michael died. Conrad Murray should not have called Kenny Ortega an amateur psychiatrist, because Conrad Murray wasn't any help in that respect either. He couldn't even take Michael Jackson's weight and prescribe the correct amount of Propofol to administer as a sleep medication!

 

[Tygger]

It's about negligent hiring, supervising and retaining.

I believe AEG did hire the doctor. It was already proven there were no background checks. With the doctor as an independent contractor, the doctor became beholden to AEG and not Michael which created a dangerous three-party situation. AEG gave requests directly to the doctor and the doctor complied with their requests when he should have focused solely on Michael’s health. The doctor was assisting AEG with securing additional insurance on Michael (was Michael aware of that). The doctor was assisting AEG with making sure Michael appeared for rehearsal. Although Michael’s health “deteriorated” in front of many who in turn alerted AEG time and time again, AEG continued to keep this doctor in place and finalizing his contract.

By that train of thought Michael would have died anyway. If he couldn't cope with the pressure of rehearsing then it's highly unlikely he would have coped with the pressure of performing a full concert.

I guess we will never see any hard proof that AEG put or didn't put undue pressure on Michael for the extra shows. AEG will give their version, Thome his but Michael is not here and neither is Frank, so we will never know for absolute sure.

I disagree. The doctor remained because he believed he would receive payment for his services. Example: if Michael was to pay the doctor through an advance and AEG would not submit the advance, the doctor would know he should not expected payment. The doctor would most likely not accept Michael as a pro-bono patient. The evidence is in the emails, the missing written approval documents, and testimony. The jury will decide if this is proof of negligent hiring, supervision, and retaining. What would be considered hard proof?

It's going to depend on the situation and the judge. First we will see if the parties will call her to the stand. If they do we will see if other side will object to it. Then probably a doctors note will be given to the judge. Judge can decide anything from playing her deposition, close down the courtroom to the public, and even decide she needs to take the stand. We will wait and see.

I said very similar statements when some fans were adamant the children should not be plaintiffs, should not testify, and the trial should not be televised solely because the plaintiffs preferred it before the trial began. Now these statements are being used to assist the defendants as they face the dilemma of calling one of the children (maybe both) to testify. I am not being offensive, I am showing how the argument was rejected when used for the plaintiffs but, may now be acceptable when used for the defendants.

It's customary to meet & interview the parties before they testify. Phillips also said he met with the Estate. So it looks like both parties were talking to Phillips before Estate & Tohme labor commissioner hearing.

Did Phillips say he met with the Estate regarding the Estate v. Tohme trial specifically?

 

[Big Apple2]

With the doctor as an independent contractor, the doctor became beholden to AEG and not Michael which created a dangerous three-party situation. AEG gave requests directly to the doctor and the doctor complied with their requests when he should have focused solely on Michael’s health. The doctor was assisting AEG with securing additional insurance on Michael (was Michael aware of that). The doctor was assisting AEG with making sure Michael appeared for rehearsal. Although Michael’s health “deteriorated” in front of many who in turn alerted AEG time and time again, AEG continued to keep this doctor in place and finalizing his contract.

I don't agree that Murray was BEHOLDING to AEG. LOL! Now had he been paid, then I can see him being beholding to them. The ONLY person Murray was beholding to, was himself, in my opinion. As a matter of fact, wasn't there some sort of testimony that Murray was bugging AEG for his money and AEG said in no uncertain terms, that he would NOT be paid until the contract was fully executed?

In my opinion, it's standard practice for YOUR personal physician to assist in gathering the information necessary in order to secure insurance. The insurance carrier was asking for MJ's medical records, where do you think that request should have been directed?

In my further opinion, I don't think AEG thought Murray was the problem. Maybe if they had more time, they would have been able to figure it out, but at the time, they THOUGHT it was Klein who was causing "some" problems. I mean, wasn't there already testimony that AFTER visiting Klein, Michael wasn't acting right?

One thing that sort of get's ignored is when you say things like "Michael's health deteriorated in front of MANY." Do you think that Michael saw what MANY others saw and just ignored it. I mean, if MANY saw it, why didn't Michael see it as well?

No offense, but sometimes you talk about Michael like he was 5, instead of 50.

 

[Tygger]

Big Apple2, the promise of $150K/month kept the doctor in place. Who was going to give him that amount? Michael gave a far lesser amount that the doctor rejected while waiting for the monthly payment.

You are correct that a doctor will submit medical records for several reasons. However, records should have been submitted at the request of the patient; here it was done at the request of AEG.

As for Michael and his health, he did ask for help from Nurse Lee, correct? When he said he was hot and cold, she requested he go to a hospital. Michael decided not too. Had he went, everything would have fallen apart and it seems he was trying his best to hold everything together. I do not fault Michael for that.

 

[Big Apple2]

Big Apple2, the promise of $150K/month kept the doctor in place. Who was going to give him that amount? Michael gave a far lesser amount that the doctor rejected while waiting for the monthly payment.

You are correct that a doctor will submit medical records for several reasons. However, records should have been submitted at the request of the patient; here it was done at the request of AEG.

As for Michael and his health, he did ask for help from Nurse Lee, correct? When he said he was hot and cold, she requested he go to a hospital. Michael decided not too. Had he went, everything would have fallen apart and it seems he was trying his best to hold everything together. I do not fault Michael for that.

The PROMISE of money is one thing. ACTUALLY having that money in your hand is something else. I mean, folks make promises everyday, without a signed contract, a promise is just a word, in my opinion. In this world NOTHING is guaranteed, until the item in question is in your hand, a promise is just that = a promise and promises don't pay the bills.

How do you know AEG made the request for Murray to hand over Michael's medical records to the insurance carrier? Is that a FACT?

What do you mean "everything would have fallen apart?" I believe if he had taken Nurse Lee's advice, things just MIGHT be different today. She made a suggestion that he go to the hospital, she ALSO made a whole lot of OTHER suggestions, let's not forget about those.

 

[AliCat]

A precipice was where Michael was standing when he decided not to go to the Emergency Room that Sunday, Father's Day in June of 2009. Why?

Because everything depended on a man paying his bills and supporting his family. Lidocaine did weird things to Michael, when you look at what can happen to you when it becomes toxic within your blood stream. I think Cherilyn Lee knew Michael was in trouble when he called her for a professional opinion.

After all, Michael Jackson had one of his aides call and talk to her, professionally speaking. Cherilyn Lee had already gone over a textbook with Michael (elementary school level) how using Propofol in a home environment was dangerous. There wasn't the necessary equipment to deal with the patient if things went wrong, no CPR type machinery. What we learned from the 911 call, when Conrad Murray decided to call, was Conrad Murray was no expert about CPR. He just didn't take anything too seriously. He scoffed at Kenny Ortega calling him an amateur doctor and a mental health professional. As if Conrad Murray was looking out for the best interest of Michael Jackson's mind. All we got in the way of that were recordings of Michael Jackson talking about Michael Jackson looking out for the welfare of children, as in build a children's hospital!

 

[santabarbara4mj]

I too hope that she doesn't testify and they just play her deposition video. Let's keep out fingers crossed that she doesn't need to take the stand.

I missed the discussion...if the court rules Paris must take the stand, can the child advocate step in and make an appeal to the court? Or, can the judge make a determination independently?

 

[santabarbara4mj]

Has Panish introduced any document into evidence showing that Murray was hired by AEG?

 

[Tygger]

No offense, but sometimes you talk about Michael like he was 5, instead of 50.

I do not so I do not take offense.

I do not believe the doctor would remain if he believed he was not going to receive $150K/month. Other independent contractors worked for AEG and received payments after Michael passed so the doctor would not be the only one waiting on a promise of payment.

If Michael went to a hospital it would be very similar to what AliCat said; he shouldered the responsibility. The shows would be rescheduled or cancelled and fallout would occur either way.

Regarding the insurance, I posted the below from the daily summaries. It also has interesting information on having a doctor on tour and if that salary would be covered by insurance.

Panish showed email from the insurance broker to AEG execs with several question: details of coverage required, if artist had doctor on tour. Trell said he doesn't know whether this email with the requests was ever sent to MJ's people. Trell said Dr. Murray was asked later to help with these answers. "It was thought that he might be of some help." (ABC7) Panish shows Trell a deposition, under oath, given by insurance broker Bob Taylor on another case. Trell said he has never seen or read it. Trell denied having a telephone conversation with Mr. Taylor where Trell asked him if a doctor's compensation was covered in the insurance. (ABC7)

Panish: Was Dr. Murray trying to help AEG get insurance?
Trell: The policy was in both names, so he was helping both parties. (ABC7) Trell said Dennis Hawk, who represented MJ, was in touch with Taylor regarding the insurance. (ABC7)

I want to correct my previous comments about Ortega being responsible for the rehearsal schedule as per the below:

Email on 6/23/09 from Timm Wooley to Bob Taylor (insurance broker): Kenny Ortega has responsibility only for the show content and structure Randy Phillips and Dr. Murray are responsible for MJ rehearsal and attendance schedule. Looks like there might have been an issue in KO either not being demanding enough. (ABC7)

 

[ivy]

I said very similar statements when some fans were adamant the children should not be plaintiffs, should not testify, and the trial should not be televised solely because the plaintiffs preferred it before the trial began. Now these statements are being used to assist the defendants as they face the dilemma of calling one of the children (maybe both) to testify. I am not being offensive, I am showing how the argument was rejected when used for the plaintiffs but, may now be acceptable when used for the defendants.

can you please clarify this? I don't remember what you said and how you said it. But I can say this, what's happening now is different. They could argue that as Paris had a recent suicide attempt and was under a 5150 hold (which is significant) she should not testify. However before this event there was no reason why they shouldn't testify.

Did Phillips say he met with the Estate regarding the Estate v. Tohme trial specifically?

I'll check it when I'm doing the summaries - I'm a little behind- but I saw the mention of meeting with Estate. Furthermore you don't take a lawyer with you if you are conspiring to lie on a case - any case.

 

[bouee]

The PROMISE of money is one thing. ACTUALLY having that money in your hand is something else. I mean, folks make promises everyday, without a signed contract, a promise is just a word, in my opinion. In this world NOTHING is guaranteed, until the item in question is in your hand, a promise is just that = a promise and promises don't pay the bills.

AEG sent another contract to Murray on 24th june. Murray was budgeted, even after Michael's death, and after june 20th event, Murray even got a promotion : he was made responsible of rehearsal attendance.

AEG went ahead with the 19 extra shows with no signature, they let production costs go well over the limit without signature.

AEG was intending to pay Murray. I don't think that the fact they did not pay him is an argument : they didn't pay anyone if the contract was not signed. Michael died the day after they sent the latest draft, so he could not sign it. AEG did not know Michael would die, they were taking the steps to pay Murray's salary.

How do you know AEG made the request for Murray to hand over Michael's medical records to the insurance carrier? Is that a FACT?

yes :

Email from 6/24/09: Taylor to Trell : Insurers have refused to move on this. Huge amount of speculation in the media regarding artist's health. They feel if they're to consider providing illness to cover this particular artist, they must have very through medical report (ABC7)

Panish showed email from Gongaware to the insurance broker on June 24, 2009:
"Dr. Murray can comment on the availability of the records." (ABC7)

On June 25, 2009, at 5:54 a.m., London time, (that would be 24th june around 10pm LA time) Taylor sent an email to Dr. Conrad Murray, who had been brought onto the tour to tend to Jackson. The email, introduced as evidence in the case, read:

“The insurers have specifically requested information on the following:

Press reports on the artist at various times using a wheelchair, and whether any of these occasions were as a result of a medical issue.
Press reports that the artist had, or has, suffered a back injury.
Press reports that the artist is suffering, or has previously suffered from lupus.
Press reports that the artist is suffering, or has previously suffered from cancer.
Press reports that the artist was hospitalized in 2005.
Dates and brief details of any cosmetic procedures, and specific details of any complications.
Press reports that the artist has suffered from lung infection/emphysema and chronic gastrointestinal bleeding.
Press reports that the artist has minimal diet (is possibly anorexic).”

Murray's answer (from Murray trial)
SM states that the iPhone reflects that Murray responded to Bob Taylor in the UK on 6/25/09 at 11:17 am, and the body states "Dear Bob, I am in receipt of your email. I spoke with Mr. Jackson and requested release of his medical records in order for you to procure a cancellation policy for his show, however the request was denied. I therefore request that AEG consult with kindly with Mr. Jackson for its relevance because he is under the impression that he is already secured in the US. As far as the statements published by the press, let me say they're all fallacious to the best of my knowledge. Sincerely, Conrad Murray"