Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Bubs]

I don't recall what Gongaware said in these last 2 days , if I was a juror, I woud have had a headache x_x

That is exactly what he said, I don't recall

 

[gerryevans]

This is just your assumption. In all the documents filed so far, they have denied knowing the sleep issues and Jacksons were not able to show anything that they knew the sleep issues. It doesn't look like that even came up during questioning.

Agree. MJ was so very private about his health issues and personal issues in general.

Let's not forget how even with the affliction of vitiligo, he didn't come out and admit he had a medical condition until he felt he had to. In the meantime, he had been enduring all kinds of flack from the black community and everybody else for years that he was trying to deny his heritage, which still goes on today.

Even in the 1993 Oprah interview, when he began to reveal more of himself, he said he didn't want to go into all his health issues. He was a man with very little privacy in his life, and tried to keep as much as he could about his personal business, personal.

I have so much admiration for him in that regard, especially when you think of how people like Lisa Marie and others publicly ripped him to shreds, and he never said a bad word publicly about them.

 

[Petrarose]

Gerry that is why this case coming from his family is sadder, because they knew how he yearned privacy, and did this to him for money.

That hamburger comment does not seem bad to me. The men thought Michael was losing weight so FOOD should make him put on weight. They were not like Karen & Shankey knowing "all along" that Michael was going to die.

 

[bouee]

Petra, there was more than just the hamburger thing, but I don't want to keep quoting what I think are insults.

 

[Big Apple2]

That hamburger comment does not seem bad to me. The men thought Michael was losing weight so FOOD should make him put on weight. They were not like Karen & Shankey knowing "all along" that Michael was going to die.

I agree with you regarding the hamburger thing.

I mean, I have seen THE FANS make "light" comments over the years as to Michael's love for KFC and how he should eat a bucket of chicken, in order to gain some weight. This was after the trial. I considered it a bit of humor and personally got a kick out of the fact that THE Michael Jackson loved KFC. Very cute vision of Mike, a bucket of chicken and a bottle of hot sauce.

In "defense" of Karen Faye, remember she did FEED Michael a bunch of bagels, in order to ensure that he was sober enough to take the stage and perform. Spoken with much sarcasm!

 

[serendipity]

^^^^ about that email "what is expected of him" , PG was aked over and over, but couldn't remember, he could not even understand what it meant.

Yea, I saw that, but did he ask him whether he actually talked to Murray and told him this? I think this would be an important question if they want to prove Murray was pressured.

It will be interesting to see how the media will handle reporting Mr. Gongaware's cross-examination today. Alan Duke, that includes you. LOL!

I was just reading his latest article and he just kinda briefly mentioned some of the cross examination and then proceeded to repeat what was said on direct, even though he already reported it. LOL He is so transparent sometimes.

So that's why they used Elvis but Gongaware not even meeting Elvis hurt that claim.

He didn't meet MJ on the Dangerous tour either, only saw him on stage. He said that on cross I believe.

It could be just a joke and actually show that they did not believe Michael had serious issues.

That's what it showed me too. Even though they were concerned he was thin, they didn't seem to think he was on death's door and just needed to eat.

I don't think so. It wasn't reported and it's an interesting and important question. However the cross is not done. AEG's own lawyers can ask that question.

Also the date of the email is important, wasn't it sometime between June 14 - 20? (can somebody check it). According to Gongaware's testimony he wasn't at June 20th meeting and he only saw Murray twice (one at forum and one at an early june meeting) and talked him twice on the phone about hiring him (early may). So if I'm correct about the date of the email, it shows that Gongaware did not talk to Murray and did not tell him that.

Probably Phillips will be asked about his interactions with Murray.

Thanks Ivy. Ortega sent the email 11 days before MJ died and Gongaware's comments were in response to that, so yea it was probably June 14. So I think you do have a point that Gongaware likely did not tell Murray what he wrote in that email.

So yes, we'll have to wait for Phillips and Ortega's testimony to see if any of them told Murray that. It would show if Murray was actually pressured like the Jacksons are claiming.

I'm not sure. It didn't make sense to me. It could also be to imply the jury not be afraid to give a high money verdict because the individuals will not be hurt by it.

see the thing is jurys have no problems with giving high judgments against corporations. Such as in the mcdonalds coffee burn example the jury gave millions of dollars to the person, the judge reduced it. So the jury might easily give billion dollar verdict against AEG. However they probably would not be that comfortable or easy with putting a high money judgment on a person that would for certain put them in a bad position. For example a billion dollar judgment divided by 3 means $333 Million judgment that would bankrupt Gongaware / Phillips for sure for the rest of their lives and their heirs. So perhaps - and this is purely an assumption on my part - Jackson lawyers wanted to say to the jury "don't be afraid to award a high money amount, the big evil corporation will pay it, not the individuals".

You may have a point that he did it to make the jury more comfortable to award high damages. But I think it could also make some think the family are desperate for a really huge amount and that's their goal with this lawsuit, not justice or "punishment".

 

[bouee]

Yea, I saw that, but did he ask him whether he actually talked to Murray and told him this? I think this would be an important question if they want to prove Murray was pressured.

He could not, since he did not remember anything. According to PG's testimony, his interactions with murray were:
-salary negociations
-saying hello at the forum (during rehearsals)
-meeting to find out if Murray needed anything

According to him, that was it. I hope this answers your question.

 

[Big Apple2]

I was just reading his latest article and he just kinda briefly mentioned some of the cross examination and then proceeded to repeat what was said on direct, even though he already reported it. LOL He is so transparent sometimes.

Yep serendipity, I peeped that also. That's his M.O.

One time I was reading his article, and it seemed like I had already read it, I actually had to look at the article's date, in order to confirm that it was indeed current, because instead of reporting on cross-examination, he just repeats the direct testimony, and adds a bit of the cross-examination as an afterthought. He ain't slick! LOL!

 

[Bubs]

Then, they talk about insurance, and like you I am thinking why ask this guy about that. Yes they ask him a whole bunch of questions that they could ask the person involved directly. How in XYZ he is supposed to know what Randy meant or what some other person thought. Then to make the thing even more stupid the silly AEG lawyers sit there and make no objects. Usually the opposing makes an objection and say Randy, etc., will be the best evidence. The judge is really to blame for this because she allowed the case to take that path by all the crap she allowed in the beginning. We are learning too much trash, like who loves who, where every Tom, Dick, & Harry worked when they are not experts, ect.

I don't get that thing why Gonga was asked what RP said or meant? Didn't they stop Karen of Arc because mostly what she said was hear say. Gonga's replies cannot even qualify as hear say or nothing to be honest.

 

[AliCat]

I agree, Michael would not have wanted to be shown this way, TII movie was about the show, not a documentary about Michael's health. It was great to have a glimpse at what he wanted to do with this show.

The movie is a Witness to the fact that Paul Gongaware just testified that he was making sure Michael Jackson was happy!

 

[Bubs]

Yea, I saw that, but did he ask him whether he actually talked to Murray and told him this? I think this would be an important question if they want to prove Murray was pressured.

Thanks Ivy. Ortega sent the email 11 days before MJ died and Gongaware's comments were in response to that, so yea it was probably June 14. So I think you do have a point that Gongaware likely did not tell Murray what he wrote in that email.

So yes, we'll have to wait for Phillips and Ortega's testimony to see if any of them told Murray that. It would show if Murray was actually pressured like the Jacksons are claiming.

Yes, it will be interesting to hear when Gonga even mentioned that to CM, or anyone else.
It would explain plaintiffs desperation for settling the trial.
People say and write many things, but to actually do those things is different thing altogether.



"Another part of the same email chain, from Gongaware: "Frank and I have discussed it already and have requested a face-to-face meeting w/ the doctor... We want to remind him that it's AEG not MJ who's paying his salary We want him to understand what is expected of him. He has been dodging Frank so far.”

I was wondering that that is related to Frank asking CM to do blood work on MJ, but then again, CM couldn't have disclose the results to them (doc-patient thingy)?

 

[serendipity]

He could not, since he did not remember anything. According to PG's testimony, his interactions with murray were:
-salary negociations
-saying hello at the forum (during rehearsals)
-meeting to find out if Murray needed anything

According to him, that was it. I hope this answers your question.

Thanks. They should have established what date this meeting happened. Some reports say it was early June, so possibly before that email was sent. In that case PG's testimony about it may very well be truthful. Panish didn't seem to press him much about that.

That would leave Phillips and Ortega and what they possibly told Murray (and maybe Frank).

Another thing I thought it was weird was Panish asking Gongaware if he checked Klein. Really now, why would he be checking Klein?

 

[AliCat]

Elvis Presley's autopsy is sealed.

But, the comparison's to Elvis Presley and Michael Jackson is fascinating to say the least. When I was a teenager, all I ever thought of Elvis Presley was what a big, fat slob he was and how could anybody like him. His movies stank and even the choice of a postage stamp is of the younger version of Elvis from the 1950's. There is no comparison when it comes to the pattern of drug abuse. Michael Jackson died with strong organs. Why do you think Elvis Presley's autopsy is sealed, because he don't have strong organs and Elvis Presley was younger, by eight years, than Michael Jackson when he decided to commit suicide!

 

[Annita]

Yes, it will be interesting to hear when Gonga even mentioned that to CM, or anyone else.
It would explain plaintiffs desperation for settling the trial.
People say and write many things, but to actually do those things is different thing altogether.



"Another part of the same email chain, from Gongaware: "Frank and I have discussed it already and have requested a face-to-face meeting w/ the doctor... We want to remind him that it's AEG not MJ who's paying his salary We want him to understand what is expected of him. He has been dodging Frank so far.”

I was wondering that that is related to Frank asking CM to do blood work on MJ, but then again, CM couldn't have disclose the results to them (doc-patient thingy)?

The voice-mail from Dileo about asking the blood-test on Murrays phone ist from June20th

 

[bouee]

The movie is a Witness to the fact that Paul Gongaware just testified that he was making sure Michael Jackson was happy!

LOL ! definitely NOT ! It could be a witness to the first artwork sucess by PG, after failing hugely with Michael's schedule (Just a joke I don't think TII movie was touched up

Thanks. They should have established what date this meeting happened. Some reports say it was early June, so possibly before that email was sent. In that case PG's testimony about it may very well be truthful. Panish didn't seem to press him much about that.

That would leave Phillips and Ortega and what they possibly told Murray (and maybe Frank).

Another thing I thought it was weird was Panish asking Gongaware if he checked Klein. Really now, why would he be checking Klein?

yes, I agree it's weird the date was not established yet, but it will be.

Something was mentionned, I don't remeber who did though, about Michael being contacted early june about missing rehearsals, 2-3 days in a row. I don't know how they contacted him, if it was a meeting or something else, and who contacted him, and if Murray was there (I can't imagine why he would be there at that point).

I think there WAS a contact with Murray between those june 15th-17tyh e mails, otherwise why come up with the idea of an intervention ? Michael had just missed ONE rehearsal that week, I wonder how you go from one doctor's ordered sick day to an intervention in 2 days ?
I'm assuming Gongaware was there, but it's an assumption.

Then we have that june 19th e-mail where Gongaware asks why Murray was not at rehearsals that day. it sounds like Murray was asked to go to rehearsals by someone, and PG knew about that. I think i read somewhere Murray was there on 23rd (not sure , i don't remeber where i saw that).

re why check Klein : I 'm assuming he meant if they suspected Klein why not go to him, instead of Murray.

I was wondering that that is related to Frank asking CM to do blood work on MJ, but then again, CM couldn't have disclose the results to them (doc-patient thingy)?

No, Frank voicemail was on june 20th, after the related incident. CM shouldn't have disclosed the results (and had no intention of doing any blood test, he would have taken a blood sample and lied about the results)

 

[Big Apple2]

He has been dodging Frank so far.”

Yeah, I bet Murray was DUCKING and dodging Frank DiLeo.

He didn't want Frank to keep after him about getting some blood work done on Michael. Even though the blood work wouldn't have detected any propofol, would it have detected any of the OTHER stuff Murray was giving Michael? Or does that OTHER stuff leave the bloodstream quickly? Anybody know?

In my opinion, Murray was never going to do any blood work on Michael anyway and if by chance Michael found out, Murray would have just said: "you don't have to do it Michael, it's not necessary."

Again, they couldn't take the chance that their secret would be revealed.

 

[Bubs]

The voice-mail from Dileo about asking the blood-test on Murrays phone ist from June20th

"He's been dodging Frank so far" got me thinking that it must have been about blood work, but it could be something else.
We'll see if they dig out Frank's email's what was going on.

Them expecting to see CM at rehearsal made me think that they possible thought that CM didn't do anything other than trying to collect he paycheck. That to me shows that they didn't know that CM's job was night time job.

 

[bouee]

We don't know if it was Murray or Michael who was dodging Frank. It could have been Michael according to Karen and that tweet from Frank's niece who said Katherine and Joe were begging Frank to be Michael's manager- Probably related to Allgood.

 

[bouee]

Thanks. They should have established what date this meeting happened. Some reports say it was early June, so possibly before that email was sent. In that case PG's testimony about it may very well be truthful. Panish didn't seem to press him much about that.

That would leave Phillips and Ortega and what they possibly told Murray (and maybe Frank).

Another thing I thought it was weird was Panish asking Gongaware if he checked Klein. Really now, why would he be checking Klein?

Panish did ask about that several times, (2 days ago) , about that meeting where PG supposedly went to make sure CM had everything he needed . But i agree the date is unclear, maybe it was not reported.

EDIT : look at the wording Ortega used in his june 14th email

Ortega to Gongaware on Jun 14: "We're you aware that MJ's doctor didn't permit him to attend rehearsal yesterday? Without invading MJ's privacy, it might be good idea to talk to his doctor to make sure everything MJ requires is in place. Who is responsible for MJ getting proper nourishment/vitamins/therapy every day?

it sounds like what PG is saying about that meeting "make sure CM has everything he needs"

 

[bouee]

"He's been dodging Frank so far" got me thinking that it must have been about blood work, but it could be something else.
We'll see if they dig out Frank's email's what was going on.





Them expecting to see CM at rehearsal made me think that they possible thought that CM didn't do anything other than trying to collect he paycheck. That to me shows that they didn't know that CM's job was night time job.

What do you mean ? that they thought Murray was lazy ?

 

[LastTear]

"He's been dodging Frank so far" got me thinking that it must have been about blood work, but it could be something else.
We'll see if they dig out Frank's email's what was going on.





Them expecting to see CM at rehearsal made me think that they possible thought that CM didn't do anything other than trying to collect he paycheck. That to me shows that they didn't know that CM's job was night time job.

Yes, if they had or were going to employ a doctor to assist Michael while he performed then they would expect him to be at rehearsals, equally, when the time came they would have expected him to be at the venue. So yes, I agree, it doesn't appear to me that AEG knew Murray was only treating MJ at night time.

 

[Bubs]

What do you mean ? that they thought Murray was lazy ?

Sorry, everything is clear and in orderly manner in my head, but once I try to expain them in writing it gets messy

What I meant that they could have thought, as they didn't see CM day time or around MJ during the rehearsals, that he didn't do his job and try to make MJ better. He was hired to be MJ's doctor, but he was never around and MJ wasn't improving so they thought CM was dodging his duties to make MJ better without knowing CM was doing his job at night time.
Just a thought of possibility.

We don't know if it was Murray or Michael who was dodging Frank. It could have been Michael according to Karen and that tweet from Frank's niece who said Katherine and Joe were begging Frank to be Michael's manager- Probably related to Allgood.

"Another part of the same email chain, from Gongaware: "Frank and I have discussed it already and have requested a face-to-face meeting w/ the doctor... We want to remind him that it's AEG not MJ who's paying his salary We want him to understand what is expected of him. He has been dodging Frank so far.”

It doesn't sound like they are talking about MJ. Why would they say to MJ: we want to remind him its AEG not MJ who's paying his salary?

 

[LastTear]

Bubs, re your first paragraph, yes it could also mean that.

You've lost me a little on the second.?? They are talking about reminding the doctor, not Michael, as far as I can see it anyway.

ETA Apologies, I have read further up in the conversation. I understand now.

 

[bouee]

Sorry, everything is clear and in orderly manner in my head, but once I try to expain them in writing it gets messy

What I meant that they could have thought, as they didn't see CM day time or around MJ during the rehearsals, that he didn't do his job and try to make MJ better. He was hired to be MJ's doctor, but he was never around and MJ wasn't improving so they thought CM was dodging his duties to make MJ better without knowing CM was doing his job at night time.
Just a thought of possibility.


"Another part of the same email chain, from Gongaware: "Frank and I have discussed it already and have requested a face-to-face meeting w/ the doctor... We want to remind him that it's AEG not MJ who's paying his salary We want him to understand what is expected of him. He has been dodging Frank so far.”

It doesn't sound like they are talking about MJ. Why would they say to MJ: we want to remind him its AEG not MJ who's paying his salary?

yes, it makes sense & that's my theory so far : They realised Murray was not doing his job, that's what I call negligent hiring & supervising. (Michael health's declining inspite of the fulltime 150 000 $ doctor = lazy incompentent doctor who even needs a nutritionnist to help so he can keep on doing nothing , incompetent doctor who later gets defensive = crappy doctor = major trouble ahead )
That will only bring me back to how I can't understand Phillips decision to back Murray to shut Ortega up.

You will never hear that from AEG, it will be Michael thought he was fine, Murray will be ignored, IMO.

That's also why I feel PG is twisting the story.

 

[Bubs]

Modified a bit of my post, too much confusion

 

[LastTear]

^^^^ Unless Murray was very convincing, just a thought.

Remind me, did AEG have the power to sack Murray, or did they need Michaels permission?

 

[LastTear]

Modified a bit of my post, too much confusion

It was my fault, I missed the earlier post, sorry.

 

[Bubs]

They needed MJ's permission.

No worries LastTear, for a moment I thought I lost myself

I think it would be better for all the parties and us that they just give us all the emails and we decide how this trial ends:yes:
There is all sort of dates going around in my head.

 

[bouee]

Where did you see they needed MJ's permission ?

 

[LastTear]

They needed MJ's permission.

Thank, I thought so. This is where my peanut brain struggles, I don't see how AEG can be accused of negligent hiring if they didn't even have the power to sack him.

@bouee It's on the unsigned contract I believe.