Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[serendipity]

I was going to mention that it reminded me of MJ using that phrase in his testimonies too. LOL I think lawyers advise their clients to say that when they don't want to really answer a question. Wouldn't surprise me if the Jacksons put that phrase to use too when they get on that stand.

 

[Ashtanga]

*big sigh*

If Karen Faye, was really worried about Michael, she would have spoken BEFORE 25 June 2009 about these problems, but as you know, if she has spoken, no more salary for her.... so let's go on!

Like a wise man said " you will do anything for money "

And she loved so much Michael :smilerolleyes: ..... That she and all the others who were around Michael should do: speak before June 25. But unfortunately as the craving for money speaks louder..... I still have in mind that Michael was completely alone. Nobody cared about him. Nobody did anything to try to help him somehow. Everyone was there watching everything happen and nobody did anything. No action to help. A lot of bla bla bla about what was going on with Michael and no initiative to try to help him. This behavior says a lot about how much they cared about Michael. (To hell all these people! errin This is all just sad and breaks my heart even more. *big sigh*

 

[ivy]

Do you see how interesting info the opposite side brings?

13,000 emails and some emails sent to a closed /inactive old email account.

suddenly there's a possible explanation for the "I don't recall"

 

[bouee]

Do you see how interesting info the opposite side brings?

13,000 emails and some emails sent to a closed /inactive old email account.

suddenly there's a possible explanation for the "I don't recall"

I thought it was pretty UNinteresting.. apart from that kazzodi mail information, it was a pure waste of time on both sides.

Ivy, the kazoodi email was the only one he did not receive , it was sent by Phillips, behind some people's back (using private e mails accounts when he was using the professional accounts before), and were about "this guy" (probably Ortega). It's an an explanation for ONE "I don't recall", certainly not all of them, and not the most important one "who's paying his salary, what's expected of him".

from the e mail post

Email on 6/20/09 from Phillips to LeiwekeComm and Kazoodi: This guy is really starting to concern me. Read his email and my response. Dr. Murray and I are meeting with MJ at 4pm today at The Forum. (ABC7)
Phillips also expressed concerns about Ortega, writing to Gongaware's private email address, "This guy is really starting to concern me." Gongaware testified Wednesday that he wasn't sure who Phillips was referring to, and his boss may have been expressing concerns about Jackson or Murray. (AP) Phillips sent this email to Leiweke and Gongaware's private email accounts. "Kazzodi" is a private email address that belongs to Gongaware
"This guy is starting to concern me," Phillips wrote in an email to Leiweke, Gongaware and Frank DiLeo. "It is not clear to me who 'this guy' is," Gongaware said. "I don't know what Randy meant here," Gongaware explained. "I can easily take 'this guy' is MJ here." (ABC7)

"The account was closed at the time," Gongaware testified, saying he never received the email. But he said he never denied it was sent.
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ABC7 Court News ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 4 h
Gongaware said he had more than one "Kazoodi" email account. He said he was not using the account the email was sent to on 6/20..

EDIT : for more info :

"trouble at the front e mail" , where Ortega is describing june 19th symptoms. i chacked, when this e mail is mentionned, it is said that Ortega sent it to Phillips, Gongaware is not mentionned. I'm not sure he had it.

Email from Production Manager - Gongaware/Phillips on 6/19/09 : “Paul/Randy I'm not bring a drama queen here. Kenny asked me to notify you both MJ was sent home without stepping foot on stage. He was a basket case and Kenny was concerned he would embarrass himself on stage, or worse yet, be hurt. The company is rehearsing right now, but the DOUBT is pervasive. (ABC7)
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 9 h
Email cont'd: The company is rehearsing right now, but the DOUBT is pervasive. Time to circle the wagons. Bugzee

this could be the same e mail, i'm not sure, Gongaware is not mentionned here :

Email on 6/19/09 from John Hougdahl to Randy Phillips: My laymen's degree tells me he needs a shrink to get him mentally prepared to get on stage and then a trained to get him in physical shape... (Kobe's should be available) I have watched him deteriorated in front of my eyes over the last 8 weeks. He was able to do multiple 360 spins back in April. He'd fall on his ass if he tried it now."
John Houghdahl was the stage manager of "This Is It" tour.

then we have this, so he did have some info (PG doesn't deny it) :
From Gongaware to Phillips, on 6/20/09 at 5:59 am : Take the doctor with you. Why wasn't he there last night? (ABC7)

 

[AliCat]

"Michael Jackson insisted on it and recommended him and it was not for me to tell him no," said Gongaware, who is a defendant in the multibillion-dollar lawsuit.

"I wanted to provide what was necessary for him to do his job...He wanted a doctor and I wanted him to be healthy."
http://www.oregonlive.com/celebrity-news/index.ssf/2013/05/michael_jackson_wrongful_death_5.html


This is why the movie, "This Is It," was so enjoyable to watch, AEG Live was doing everything to make Michael happy, which is why $35 Million was spent on production.

It is a terrible tragedy, but I don't see how AEG Live is to blame. Michael Jackson wanted to use Propofol. He found a competent Doctor, or so he thought. I'm not really sure what anyone is learning from the Trial. The sordid details of "don't you sit around and think about all the emails you sent Paul Gongaware?!'

 

[bouee]

Putnam: Were there any doctors in that tour? Gongaware: Yes, two. Gongaware said Dr. Forecast was MJ's personal doctor. He didn't think Dr. Forecast treated anyone else, so they had Dr. Finkelstein also. Dr. Finkelstein, a general practitioner, was in the B party. They went to places where they didn't know the quality of local healthcare. Gongaware explained Dr. Finkelstein treated B, C and D parties. Gongaware said he did not see any doctor treat MJ. Dr. Finkelstein told Gongaware he treated MJ two times. Dr. Forecast wasn't in Bangkok yet, so Dr. Finkelstein treated him when he needed.

That was very interesting. It explains why the Jacksons' lawyer didn't dwell on how Finkelstein was hired on dangerous. AEG have point here.

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 4 h

Putnam: Have you ever been sued personally for the wrongful death of anyone? Gongaware: No

Why does Putnam say "wrongful death when it's not a wrongful death lawsuit, it's breach of contract. Maybe it's how the media reported it, they say wrongful death all the time.

The day MJ died, Gongaware said Phillips called him and told him to get over to the house right away, there seems to be a problem. Randy followed the ambulance to UCLA
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Phillips has more and more explaining to do. What was he doing there, is he a paramedic ?

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 5 h

A lot of Gongaware's afternoon testimony was biographical details: how he got started in concert business, other acts he worked with.

waste of time by AEG's lawyers. We had that already during direct.

Elvis Presley's death became a controversy at the Michael Jackson wrongful death trial as a man who promoted both artists' last tours testified.AEG Live Co-CEO Paul Gongaware testified Wednesday that Presley died of a drug overdose, but when his own lawyer questioned him Thursday he changed his testimony to say Elvis died of a heart ailment.

???????? another memory loss ? PG is way too young for dementia.

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 9 h

Other than on June 19th, no one told Gongaware about being concerned with MJ's health.

ABC7 Court News ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 9 h

But Gongaware told the jury he didn't have any particular concern about Michael Jackson.
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I think he's not saying everything

e mails from june 14/ 15th

ina shows an email from Ortega to Gongaware on Jun 14: "We're you aware that MJ's doctor didn't permit him to attend rehearsal yesterday? Without invading MJ's privacy, it might be good idea to talk to his doctor to make sure everything MJ requires is in place. Who is responsible for MJ getting proper nourishment/vitamins/therapy every day? Personally, I feel he should have a top Nutritionist and Physical Therapist working with him on a regular basis. The demand on this guy is mentally and physically extraordinary! The show requirements exhaust our 20 year olds. Please don't underestimate the need to stay on top of this" (ABC7)

Gongaware to Kenny Ortega that said “We want to remind him that it is AEG, not MJ who is paying his salary”. In his deposition Gongaware repeatedly said he didn’t remember the email or recall what it meant (AP) (from opening statements).
Another part of the same email chain, from Gongaware: "Frank and I have discussed it already and have requested a face-to-face meeting w/ the doctor... We want to remind him that it's AEG not MJ who's paying his salary We want him to understand what is expected of him. He has been dodging Frank so far.” (ABC7)

On June 15, 2009, Gongaware sent and emai to Ortega in response to request for nutritionist and physical therapist for MJ. Email: We're on it. AEG owns major sports teams in this market so we think we can find the right people quickly. Kenny responded: Super.Not a minute too soon. Let's turn this guy around! (ABC7)

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 11 h
Hougdahl, in response to concerns expressed by Travis Payne about Jackson’s weight, wrote singer needed a new diet.
Email 6/15/09 from Hougdahl to Gongaware He needs some cheeseburgers w/ b.........

Email from 6/17/09 from Phillips: ...Ortega, Gongaware, Dileo, and his doctor Conrad from Vegas and I have an intervention with him to get him to focus and come to rehearsal (ABC7)

Then there was that hour long meeting with Murray "to make sure Murray had everything he needed" , and PG's testimony 2 days ago , when he said he didn't know why a nutritionnist was needed when theere was a full time doctor with Michael.

And we learn that Travis had "concerns" mid june. i don't remember that from his testimony, I would have to check again.

Something is really off with this , he's not saying everything about health concerns and / or about the purpose of the vist to Murray (according to his mail that he doesn't understand anymore "remind him who's paying his salary & what's expected of him").

Overall, the Jacksons are not going anywhere with PG. I still don't understand why he is personally sued, unless he is caught lying/twisting stuff when other witnesses testify.

 

[Tygger]

That was very interesting. It explains why the Jacksons' lawyer didn't dwell on how Finkelstein was hired on dangerous. AEG have point here.

Overall, the Jacksons are not going anywhere with PG. I still don't understand why he is personally sued, unless he is caught lying/twisting stuff when other witnesses testify.

What is the point AEG has there? Dr. Finkelstein was the tour doctor who said in his deposition that Michael may have been dependent, told Gongaware about it, and Gongaware had a very unique response.

Gongaware was sued because he is the one who had a history of working with Michael on two previous tours. He would be able to discuss Michael's past issues with Phillips. This helps to show AEG was aware of issues Michael had on previous tours.

Does that mean that Mr. Gongaware should have ALSO known that Michael "may" have used propofol as a sleep aid during those 2 previous tours?

(I don't know if Michael did use propofol before, I'm just asking a question.)

I believe AEG questioned why a cardiologist was going to Michael's house nightly and may have known the answer. They were aware Michael was having sleep issues at the very least.

AJurors i would imagine hate that type of thing in a witness as it just makes them look shifty, so if aeg's case is so watertight, why the need to stall.

Also is there anyone who is still convinced that mj was uber keen to do 50 shows.

Agreed with Gongaware and the 50 shows. Michael signed for 31 shows, not 50. AEG does not have proof Michael verbally agreed to do 50 shows. The increase should have been confirmed in writing by Michael and it was not.

 

[Petrarose]

Whatever you may think of Gonga as a witness, he is certainly not giving the family any information that they could use to help their case.

I see people see Gonga's scheme to make Michael think he is not working too much, as him being deceitful, or him thinking Michael is foolish. Now let me ask you guys the following: When the stores make a product $0.99, $2.99, or $399.00 what do you think they are doing? They are using a marketing "scheme" to make the buyer think the price is less than $1, less than $3.00; or in other words the item is cheap and we got a bargain. We are psychologically fooled and we all fall for it. It is the same when they paint a small house or apt white to make us think it looks larger & sunnier. How about when they knock down the kitchen and dining room walls to make one single space, market it as the open plan, and sell or rent it to you as this large house/apt. We fall for that too and no one says the seller is dishonest or the seller thinks we are stupid. How about when we have a big job at the office and the managers break it up into little stacks, so you have 3 bundles to tackle. It makes you think that you have less work to do because each stack is small & when you finish 1, you think "I have only 2 more to do." All these things are strategies that are used all the time in the marketplace. Even painting the walls in the hospital rooms green or wearing green was done because they claim research shows green makes people feel calmer or happier or something like that. Actually White makes me more peaceful, but if someone thinks green makes them calmer they will swear they feel at peace in the hospital. So I don't have a problem with what Gongaware did with the colors. I would have done something similar to make Michael think his load was not that huge. Michael knows how to count, so he knows that he has to do 50 shows. However, as he glances at the whole schedule, the colors make him think "oh it is not that much."

 

[bouee]

What is the point AEG has there? Dr. Finkelstein was the tour doctor who said in his deposition that Michael may have been dependent, told Gongaware about it, and Gongaware had a very unique response.

That was what I was trying to say yesterday, maybe not too clearly, so I'll try again:


I don't see their point (I mean jackson's point) , because Michael made a public announcement about his problems during Dangerous tour. So we know PG knows anyway. I don't understand why it would be important to show WHEN he knew about this during Dangerous, except if he was involved with Finkelstein.

I thought the Jacksons were saying that PG personnally witnessed Michael's problems in 93 and was somehow involved in hiring /asking Finkelstein to deal with it (I think I got that from Karen's testimony) .
Witnessing it peronnally would have made it easier for him to recognise it + witnessing all the process that led to the end of Dangerous being cancelled + having to interfere with "Dr forecast" who was painted by Karen as an evil doctor who was doing anything to put Michael on stage.

So I was expecting them to ask different questions about Finkelstein and Gongaware, other that "he said that/I said that/I was not aware of that".

Gongaware was sued because he is the one who had a history of working with Michael on two previous tours. He would be able to discuss Michael's past issues with Phillips. This helps to show AEG was aware of issues Michael had on previous tours.

Oh, Ok, thanks, i see your point.

Re Dangerous : Michael made a public announcement about his medication issues, so everybody knows, anyway.

History : Panish didn't ask many questions, Gongaware said he did not know.

2000 : PG said he worked with the Jacksons, was it MSG concert ? It doesn't sound like many questions were asked about that.

TII : Gongaware was directly involved in the june 15th meeting with Murray. I believe he's twisting the truth about that/hiding stuff.
Phillips is going to go along with PG's story, Frank is dead, we don't know if Murray is going to take the stand but if he does, I believe he could take the 5th on that, so the only person left to discredit this "softened" story would be Ortega. I'm not sure what Ortega would say, Maybe related things will be found in Frank's e-mails.

June 19th and other health info : there is not much info, at least up to this point confirming that Gongaware was made aware of Michael's declining health, except for Alif Sankey I think, saying PG was at most rehearsals, PG says he was at the arena, but not with MJ. So that's a bit ??, not clear at least.
I'm not sure if PG was at the rehearsal on june 19th. Again no question asked about that, so that would mean he wasn't, and we don't know if Kenny e mailed him, or if it was only Phillips. It would seem unusual that Kenny didn't contact Gongaware at that moment.
PG was not involved in june 20th meeting, and the decision that was taken by Phillips after that meeting to side with Murray and shut Ortega up.

Here is what we know he got :

Email from Production Manager - Gongaware/Phillips on 6/19/09 : “Paul/Randy I'm not bring a drama queen here. Kenny asked me to notify you both MJ was sent home without stepping foot on stage. He was a basket case and Kenny was concerned he would embarrass himself on stage, or worse yet, be hurt. The company is rehearsing right now, but the DOUBT is pervasive. (ABC7)
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 9 h
Email cont'd: The company is rehearsing right now, but the DOUBT is pervasive. Time to circle the wagons. Bugzee

this could be the same e mail, i'm not sure, Gongaware is not mentionned here :

Email on 6/19/09 from John Hougdahl to Randy Phillips: My laymen's degree tells me he needs a shrink to get him mentally prepared to get on stage and then a trained to get him in physical shape... (Kobe's should be available) I have watched him deteriorated in front of my eyes over the last 8 weeks. He was able to do multiple 360 spins back in April. He'd fall on his ass if he tried it now."
John Houghdahl was the stage manager of "This Is It" tour.

When I say I don't understand, it means I really don't understand. I don't think the Jacksons lawyers are bad lawyers - their only mistake so far would be Karen's testimony IMO- so I think there is probably a reason, I just don't get it.

Maybe it's a tactic to get PG on the stand, to show how forgetful he and twisting things. Maybe that will appear later, when more testimonies come in, like Karen is being discredited by other witnesses, PG could be discredited by other people.

 

[bouee]

"


This is why the movie, "This Is It," was so enjoyable to watch,

I agree, Michael would not have wanted to be shown this way, TII movie was about the show, not a documentary about Michael's health. It was great to have a glimpse at what he wanted to do with this show.

 

[Bubs]

I believe AEG questioned why a cardiologist was going to Michael's house nightly and may have known the answer. They were aware Michael was having sleep issues at the very least.

! question, who testified that any of AEG people knew CM was at MJ's house nightly?

 

[Bubs]

So now plaintiffs brought in Elvis and how he died, are they trying to draw conclusion as Gonga was there that time, he had something to do with Elvis' death or trying to say that everybody he works for, end up dead?

I found it bizarre that plaintiffs brought up the subject whether Gonga had to pay any damages or if his insurance pays, wtf?
Second issue I found stupid, plaintiffs keeps asking Gonga about what RP might have meant by saying this or that, or why RP said something or was he serious of this or that?
Why oh why? They get their chance to ask directly from RP what he may have said or thought, why ask someone else what someone else might have said or meant by saying, lots of fluff to distract the jury members :no:

How about concentrating to at least try to touch the subject (or the last claim standing) whether AEG negligently hired and supervised CM, so far I only see much ado about nothing.

At least judge has woken up and says something:
Lots of bickering back and forth, and the judge summed up the discussion: “This is really a time-waster, really.”


At least there were some interesting tidbits such as:
The King of Thailand said MJ would have to do the second show because his friends were attending, Gongaware recalled.
Gongaware said the King put armed guards outside their doors to make sure they didn't leave.

So scary but very amusing at the same time, I cannot blame Kind of Thailand. If I was King of my own counrty, and if MJ had entered in to my country, I would have made sure he never left. I would have kept him in my closet:rofl:

 

[bouee]

I found it bizarre that plaintiffs brought up the subject whether Gonga had to pay any damages or if his insurance pays, wtf?
Second issue I found stupid, plaintiffs keeps asking Gonga about what RP might have meant by saying this or that, or why RP said something or was he serious of this or that?

I have this feeling that Gongaware is not being completely honest in his answers, some of them sound rearranged to help at least Phillips/AEG. That insurance thing would explain that.

Why oh why? They get their chance to ask directly from RP what he may have said or thought, why ask someone else what someone else might have said or meant by saying, lots of fluff to distract the jury members :no:

yes, the RP thing was weird, I agree.
The second one was about Hougdahl's "joke" (Winsconsin burgers): PG thought is was funny : it was (again) disrespectful for Michael, and showing they would laugh about his health issues. At the same time, it goes along with the fact that PG says he was not worried for Michael's health.

At least there were some interesting tidbits such as:
The King of Thailand said MJ would have to do the second show because his friends were attending, Gongaware recalled.
Gongaware said the King put armed guards outside their doors to make sure they didn't leave.

So scary but very amusing at the same time, I cannot blame Kind of Thailand. If I was King of my own counrty, and if MJ had entered in to my country, I would have made sure he never left. I would have kept him in my closet:rofl:

yeah, that was scary... .

 

[Bubs]

I have this feeling that Gongaware is not being completely honest in his answers, some of them sound rearranged to help at least Phillips/AEG. That insurance thing would explain that.


yes, the RP thing was weird, I agree.
The second one was about Hougdahl's "joke" (Winsconsin burgers): PG thought is was funny : it was (again) disrespectful for Michael, and showing they would laugh about his health issues. At the same time, it goes along with the fact that PG says he was not worried for Michael's health.


yeah, that was scary... .

About that insurance thing, it shows that if Gonga doesn't have to pay anything, he doesn't have to lie. No matter what way he testifies, he ain't going to pay a dime, so to me it was bizarre thing to bring out.
Btw, none of the people who will testify there are completely honest. Just wait and see

About the joke, from my point of view it was just a silly remark. I must admit I have been guilty of saying nearly same thing to someone of someone else (yeas, I'm a bad person) without knowing whether that person has any health issues.
What they basically were saying in joke form that MJ needed to eat, but they said it like macho men would say it (if you know what I mean).

 

[Bubs]

Ivy or Qbee, can you find a correct thread for this link:
Michael Jackson Trial Exhibits
http://www.psblaw.com/michael-jackson-trial-exhibits.html

 

[Diplomate]

I don't recall what Gongaware said in these last 2 days , if I was a juror, I woud have had a headache x_x

 

[serendipity]

Ivy, I have a couple of questions since you're following more closely the details.

First, we know Gongaware sent that email about "we want to remind him what is expected of him". But has there been any testimony whether he actually told Murray that? Did Panish ask him that? I know we don't have the full transcript yet, but I think an important question like that would be reported and I'm not sure it has been.

And my second question is, why do you think Panish asked about the insurance and how Gongaware (and possibly Philips? ) won't have to pay if they lose the case? Obviously that would mean they won't be affected in any way if they lose or at least that's how I understand it, but why did Panish bring it up? Was it another settlement try?

IMO it shows they won't be "punished" even if they lose and this trial is such a waste and unnecessary dragging of MJ's name through the mud.

 

[bouee]

^^^^ about that email "what is expected of him" , PG was aked over and over, but couldn't remember, he could not even understand what it meant.

Insurance : I would say, incite them to go along with AEG, so that AEG don't go after them if they lose (PG said he thought that AEG could go after them if the damages were too big). especially if they are not over optimistic about the outcome.

Ivy or Qbee, can you find a correct thread for this link:
Michael Jackson Trial Exhibits
http://www.psblaw.com/michael-jackson-trial-exhibits.html

A lot of them are labeled LAPD or LA DA : i did not click on them, assuming it was all linked to the Murray criminal investigation.
i cliked on the others, it's all about Murray (criminal invastigation) : his debts, subpeonas , pictures taken at Carolwood, 911, paramedics' and hospital reports. There is also the paparazzi picure of Michael in the ambnulance (one of the links on the right hand side)

It's worth sving the link, in case they add more stuff later.

 

[bouee]

About the joke, from my point of view it was just a silly remark. I must admit I have been guilty of saying nearly same thing to someone of someone else (yeas, I'm a bad person) without knowing whether that person has any health issues.
What they basically were saying in joke form that MJ needed to eat, but they said it like macho men would say it (if you know what I mean).

Yes, it was silly , but that's a lot of silly things , it shows a general atmoshere about Michael. This time it came from Hougdahl. So now we have Trell , that other peron I don't remeber who it was who called him a "freak", Gongaware thinks it's funny and thinks he can fool Michael about his schedule with artwork and has nightmares about working on TII, and thinks it's such a bright joke he can use it to chat Carla up . Maybe I'm forgetting someone. Not really nice. Not really respectful.

I was trying not to focus too much about this kind of stuff, because if you take them separately it is just silly, I agree, but when you put them all together, it's not just silly anymore. It's really getting on my nerves now.

It's interesting to compare Houdah'ls e mail with the Wisconsin thing (15th june) with the then not so funny e mail he wrote only 4 days later , about having watched Michael degrading for the past 8 weeks, and not being able to do the dance moves he was doing in april (the spins).

It also means they had noticed the health issues, they were talking about it, those health issues were not completely mental, and they found that funny. Which can be taken both ways : it was funny because they didn't think there was anything serious, or it was funny because it was fun to make fun of Michael, and they overlooked the health issue, ie being negligent.

EDIT : put that in context with Gongaware's email saying he was going to find a nutritionnist (mid june). When he testified, he said it was Kenny's resquest, he didn't know why hire a nutritionnist when Murray was there, and they went back and forth about a nutritionnist being different than a nutruitionnal person, or whatever he meant. + he doesn't remember what his "remind him what his expected of him " e mail meant, and he went to that meeting with Murray to make sure he had everything he needed, which took an hour.

Thanks for making that remark Bubs.Answering you post is helping me understand why he is personnally sued. It's beginning to make sense.

IMO, he IS twisting the truth, his own contradictions show that, that's why the Jacskons are bringing all this stuff up, elvis and all : he constantly changes his story, and some details were changed after his deposition in december.

IMO, he IS downplaying what he knew about Michael's health problems, and definitely covering up for his boss.

 

[Big Apple2]

I believe AEG questioned why a cardiologist was going to Michael's house nightly and may have known the answer. They were aware Michael was having sleep issues at the very least.

Who testified as to AEG knowing that Murray was at Michael's house nightly?

First time I'm hearing that. Can anybody confirm whether that is true or not.

In my opinion, if they knew about Michael's sleeping issues, I'm almost positive that they would NEVER have thought that Michael was using propofol to alleviate the problem. I truly believe that they were shocked when Nurse Lee first revealed that news, just like the rest of the world.

 

[Diplomate]

Who testified as to AEG knowing that Murray was at Michael's house nightly?

First time I'm hearing that. Can anybody confirm whether that is true or not.

In my opinion, if they knew about Michael's sleeping issues, I'm almost positive that they would NEVER have thought that Michael was using propofol to alleviate the problem. I truly believe that they were shocked when Nurse Lee first revealed that news, just like the rest of the world.

Yes, and I think everybody knew for his sleeping problems, I mean the fans, I know some followers, not the twitter thing but the "MJ followers " you have some on this board, and when Mike was living in Vegas in 2007-2008, they could see Mike at night , at his window, the lights on, until 3 or 4am sometimes.
Sleeping problems for Mike, we knew that, but Propofol, nobody knew, except Murray, Debbie Rowe maybe, Lisa Presley maybe, some doctors, Klein, that's it I think.

Mike even said after a concert, he was so excited he couldn't sleep because of the adrenaline.

The only thing we didn't know, was the Propofol so.

 

[Big Apple2]

It will be interesting to see how the media will handle reporting Mr. Gongaware's cross-examination today. Alan Duke, that includes you. LOL!

 

[Diplomate]

It will be interesting to see how the media will handle reporting Mr. Gongaware's cross-examination today. Alan Duke, that includes you. LOL!

Lol, Alan Duke will be so saaaaaad when his friends the Jackson$ will testify, maybe he will take holidays, like this no need to report their dirty bu$ine$$ lol

 

[ivy]

Ivy, the kazoodi email was the only one he did not receive , it was sent by Phillips, behind some people's back (using private e mails accounts when he was using the professional accounts before), and were about "this guy" (probably Ortega). It's an an explanation for ONE "I don't recall", certainly not all of them, and not the most important one "who's paying his salary, what's expected of him".

yes he did not receive "trouble at the front" email chain. So he was telling the truth when he testified "I did not see this email before"

the other point is the sheer number of emails. 13,000 emails. Would you expect anybody to remember that number of emails 4 years later? Context is everything. When Jackson lawyers show 10-15 emails and Gongaware says "I don't recall" it looks like he's lying. But what about when you hear he had 13,000 emails to start with? Suddenly remembering a handful emails from ten thousands of them becomes not an easy task.

Why does Putnam say "wrongful death when it's not a wrongful death lawsuit, it's breach of contract. Maybe it's how the media reported it, they say wrongful death all the time.

because the case is about Michael's death and it makes it a wrongful death lawsuit. the only way to sue AEG was through the contracts they had with Michael and Murray.

What is the point AEG has there? Dr. Finkelstein was the tour doctor [/qoute]

they are impeaching Karen Faye who said Finkelstein was Michael's doctor.

Gongaware was sued because he is the one who had a history of working with Michael on two previous tours. He would be able to discuss Michael's past issues with Phillips. This helps to show AEG was aware of issues Michael had on previous tours.

True. Phillips only was involved in LAGear deal and TII was the first time working with Michael. Gongaware on the other hand worked with Michael on previous tours. So they sued Gongaware so that they can argue Gongaware knew, saw things or had first hand experience. This way they can argue "knew or should have known".

I believe AEG questioned why a cardiologist was going to Michael's house nightly and may have known the answer. They were aware Michael was having sleep issues at the very least.

This is just your assumption. In all the documents filed so far, they have denied knowing the sleep issues and Jacksons were not able to show anything that they knew the sleep issues. It doesn't look like that even came up during questioning.

So now plaintiffs brought in Elvis and how he died, are they trying to draw conclusion as Gonga was there that time, he had something to do with Elvis' death or trying to say that everybody he works for, end up dead?

I think the point is he worked with people with dependency issues such as Elvis and he should have been able to conclude that Michael had dependency issues.

I was talking about this the other day about negligent hiring in legal meaning. It involves reasonable conclusions. If you have a person let's say working with dependent people it's a reasonable expectation that person can identify people with problems with dependency. If you have another person who have never seen a person under the influence of drugs, they might not be understand even if they see signs.

So that's why they used Elvis but Gongaware not even meeting Elvis hurt that claim.

The second one was about Hougdahl's "joke" (Winsconsin burgers): PG thought is was funny : it was (again) disrespectful for Michael, and showing they would laugh about his health issues. At the same time, it goes along with the fact that PG says he was not worried for Michael's health.

It could be just a joke and actually show that they did not believe Michael had serious issues. My high school boyfriends mom used to tell me I need a good meal and if I stay with her for a week she would put meat on my bones. She used to say this to my face. Do you think it's disrespectful? Context is everything.

About that insurance thing, it shows that if Gonga doesn't have to pay anything, he doesn't have to lie. No matter what way he testifies, he ain't going to pay a dime, so to me it was bizarre thing to bring out.

honestly I don't get the insurance thing. If Gongaware is protected then yeah I would agree that he doesn't have a reason to lie. But why bring it up.

Ivy, I have a couple of questions since you're following more closely the details.

First, we know Gongaware sent that email about "we want to remind him what is expected of him". But has there been any testimony whether he actually told Murray that? Did Panish ask him that? I know we don't have the full transcript yet, but I think an important question like that would be reported and I'm not sure it has been.

I don't think so. It wasn't reported and it's an interesting and important question. However the cross is not done. AEG's own lawyers can ask that question.

Also the date of the email is important, wasn't it sometime between June 14 - 20? (can somebody check it). According to Gongaware's testimony he wasn't at June 20th meeting and he only saw Murray twice (one at forum and one at an early june meeting) and talked him twice on the phone about hiring him (early may). So if I'm correct about the date of the email, it shows that Gongaware did not talk to Murray and did not tell him that.

Probably Phillips will be asked about his interactions with Murray.

And my second question is, why do you think Panish asked about the insurance and how Gongaware (and possibly Philips? ) won't have to pay if they lose the case? Obviously that would mean they won't be affected in any way if they lose or at least that's how I understand it, but why did Panish bring it up? Was it another settlement try?

I'm not sure. It didn't make sense to me. It could also be to imply the jury not be afraid to give a high money verdict because the individuals will not be hurt by it.

see the thing is jurys have no problems with giving high judgments against corporations. Such as in the mcdonalds coffee burn example the jury gave millions of dollars to the person, the judge reduced it. So the jury might easily give billion dollar verdict against AEG. However they probably would not be that comfortable or easy with putting a high money judgment on a person that would for certain put them in a bad position. For example a billion dollar judgment divided by 3 means $333 Million judgment that would bankrupt Gongaware / Phillips for sure for the rest of their lives and their heirs. So perhaps - and this is purely an assumption on my part - Jackson lawyers wanted to say to the jury "don't be afraid to award a high money amount, the big evil corporation will pay it, not the individuals".

Who testified as to AEG knowing that Murray was at Michael's house nightly?

First time I'm hearing that. Can anybody confirm whether that is true or not.

In my opinion, if they knew about Michael's sleeping issues, I'm almost positive that they would NEVER have thought that Michael was using propofol to alleviate the problem. I truly believe that they were shocked when Nurse Lee first revealed that news, just like the rest of the world.

I don't think anyone testified to that. I can tell you that in the documents filed before trial, they denied any knowledge of Propofol and denied any knowledge of sleep issues. They stated they knew the 1993 painkillers issue because Michael made a public announcement about it.

Yes, and I think everybody knew for his sleeping problems, I mean the fans, I know some followers, not the twitter thing but the "MJ followers " you have some on this board, and when Mike was living in Vegas in 2007-2008, they could see Mike at night , at his window, the lights on, until 3 or 4am sometimes.
Sleeping problems for Mike, we knew that, but Propofol, nobody knew, except Murray, Debbie Rowe maybe, Lisa Presley maybe, some doctors, Klein, that's it I think.

see going to bed at 3-4 AM is not necessarily a sleep problem if you can sleep 6-7 hours. So Michael could have gone to bed at 4 AM but if he was getting up at noon (12:00) that's not sleep problem, it's just that he has different sleep hours. The reason he had a sleep problem was because he went to bed and could not sleep more than a few hours. That's a specific knowledge that not everyone will know.

 

[Big Apple2]

EDIT : put that in context with Gongaware's email saying he was going to find a nutritionnist (mid june). When he testified, he said it was Kenny's resquest, he didn't know why hire a nutritionnist when Murray was there, and they went back and forth about a nutritionnist being different than a nutruitionnal person, or whatever he meant. + he doesn't remember what his "remind him what his expected of him " e mail meant, and he went to that meeting with Murray to make sure he had everything he needed, which took an hour.

To be honest, in my opinion, AEG could have brought in a nutritionist or any other type of specialist, and Michael "probably" would have declined. In my opinion, he would have declined for fear that person would realize that SOMETHING was going on, something was wrong. Michael and Murray had a secret that nobody was supposed to know about.

Didn't Travis Payne testify that he (or they) tried to bring in somebody, but at the last minute Michael declined?

 

[bouee]

To be honest, in my opinion, AEG could have brought in a nutritionist or any other type of specialist, and Michael "probably" would have declined. In my opinion, he would have declined for fear that person would realize that SOMETHING was going on, something was wrong. Michael and Murray had a secret that nobody was supposed to know about.

Didn't Travis Payne testify that he (or they) tried to bring in somebody, but at the last minute Michael declined?

yes, Michael declined a physical therapist. From what I saw from another site, Travis mentionned Michael's facial expression when he was suggested a physio. So it was really him, and not Murray, as I initially thought. I think he was just not comfortable with being massaged. I know I have to go several times a wek, and it took me some time to get used to it. You end up in your underwear iwith a guy you don't know who keeps touching you, and you can't tell him to go to hell because that's his job and that's what you came for.

I'm thinking the "nutritionnist" was maybe Kai Chase, she was re hired by Michael around that time, maybe because he preferred her cooking over the other chef, and so would eat more.

 

[Big Apple2]

the other point is the sheer number of emails. 13,000 emails. Would you expect anybody to remember that number of emails 4 years later?

That's a lot of emails. WOW! I can't even remember the emails I received 4 weeks ago, never mind 4 years ago.

I work for a law firm, and EVERYTHING in this office comes over the email system. AND I HATE IT! LOL!

Before I even get in the office good, there's a batch of emails from the night before. Pain in the neck, those dang emails. Don't tell anybody, but most of the time I just read the subject line and if I "think" it doesn't pertain to me, I don't even bother opening it. Emails and emailing, I can definitely do without. Please don't tell my employer.

@bouee, I hear you on the "touching" thing. One of my good friend's has never had a mani/pedi, because she doesn't want anybody to touch her hand's and feet. She does her own polishing for that very reason. Different strokes, I guess.

 

[Petrarose]

So now plaintiffs brought in Elvis and how he died, are they trying to draw conclusion as Gonga was there that time, he had something to do with Elvis' death or trying to say that everybody he works for, end up dead?

I found it bizarre that plaintiffs brought up the subject whether Gonga had to pay any damages or if his insurance pays, wtf?
Second issue I found stupid, plaintiffs keeps asking Gonga about what RP might have meant by saying this or that, or why RP said something or was he serious of this or that?
Why oh why? They get their chance to ask directly from RP what he may have said or thought, why ask someone else what someone else might have said or meant by saying, lots of fluff to distract the jury members :no:

:

Bub as usual I agree with you. They bring in the Elvis to STRESS again that the addict Michael is similar to the addict Elvis--both died because some doctor was giving them something. Then they claim the person said don't be a Dr. Nick which was the name for Elvis doctor. They really are trying to keep the jury thinking Michael was an addict and everyone knew so Gong should know that too and suspect Muarry was giving Michael drugs. We all know of course that they suspected Klien since it was after visits to Klien that most saw him looking out of it.

Then, they talk about insurance, and like you I am thinking why ask this guy about that. Yes they ask him a whole bunch of questions that they could ask the person involved directly. How in XYZ he is supposed to know what Randy meant or what some other person thought. Then to make the thing even more stupid the silly AEG lawyers sit there and make no objects. Usually the opposing makes an objection and say Randy, etc., will be the best evidence. The judge is really to blame for this because she allowed the case to take that path by all the crap she allowed in the beginning. We are learning too much trash, like who loves who, where every Tom, Dick, & Harry worked when they are not experts, ect.

Don't forget the part about Micahel said he was addicted in 93 & went into reharb, so according to Panish Gong had to know that he would be addicted in 09 too, & see Muarry as a Red Flag. So every person who stole before, fought before, had debt before, drank too much before, eat too much before we have to say, "hold it; watch that person; they are doing it again!" No wonder former prisoners find it so hard to get work, and guess what, the robbers end up going and steal again to make a buck, and end right back in prison.

 

[ivy]

That's a lot of emails. WOW! I can't even remember the emails I received 4 weeks ago, never mind 4 years ago.

I work for a law firm, and EVERYTHING in this office comes over the email system. AND I HATE IT! LOL!

Before I even get in the office good, there's a batch of emails from the night before. Pain in the neck, those dang emails. Don't tell anybody, but most of the time I just read the subject line and if I "think" it doesn't pertain to me, I don't even bother opening it. Emails and emailing, I can definitely do without. Please don't tell my employer.

see that's the case for everyone. I get at least 80 emails daily at work and majority of them I will delete without even opening, some of them I do a quick scan and only some I would read and even fewer I would reply. I'm not sure if I'll remember the contents of them. My BF like every week sends me one "I love you" type of email which is generally a quote he finds and sends me - which I read and reply. I tested myself this morning. I remember what the quote he sent me last week but I can't remember any more.

 

[bouee]

yes he did not receive "trouble at the front" email chain. So he was telling the truth when he testified "I did not see this email before"

the other point is the sheer number of emails. 13,000 emails. Would you expect anybody to remember that number of emails 4 years later? Context is everything. When Jackson lawyers show 10-15 emails and Gongaware says "I don't recall" it looks like he's lying. But what about when you hear he had 13,000 emails to start with? Suddenly remembering a handful emails from ten thousands of them becomes not an easy task.

I don't think so. It wasn't reported and it's an interesting and important question. However the cross is not done. AEG's own lawyers can ask that question.

Also the date of the email is important, wasn't it sometime between June 14 - 20? (can somebody check it). According to Gongaware's testimony he wasn't at June 20th meeting and he only saw Murray twice (one at forum and one at an early june meeting) and talked him twice on the phone about hiring him (early may). So if I'm correct about the date of the email, it shows that Gongaware did not talk to Murray and did not tell him that.

Yes, Pg said he received hundreds of e mails everyday, I can understand he wouldn't remeber everything, same thing happened to me in my job. Though I can't believe he doesn't remember this particular one :

here is the chain of e mails :

I keep that post I made about all the emails updated generally everyday, usually morning CET, so about midnight /1 am ET). I
the post is here : http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...ckson-vs-AEG?p=3828885&viewfull=1#post3828885
if you want to update the thread title (post 1567- page 105 - or relocate the post in a more convenient place to make it easier to find.

Mid June 09 :


Bina shows an email from Ortega to Gongaware on Jun 14: "We're you aware that MJ's doctor didn't permit him to attend rehearsal yesterday? Without invading MJ's privacy, it might be good idea to talk to his doctor to make sure everything MJ requires is in place. Who is responsible for MJ getting proper nourishment/vitamins/therapy every day? Personally, I feel he should have a top Nutritionist and Physical Therapist working with him on a regular basis. The demand on this guy is mentally and physically extraordinary! The show requirements exhaust our 20 year olds. Please don't underestimate the need to stay on top of this" (ABC7)

Gongaware to Kenny Ortega that said “We want to remind him that it is AEG, not MJ who is paying his salary”. In his deposition Gongaware repeatedly said he didn’t remember the email or recall what it meant (AP) (from opening statements).
Another part of the same email chain, from Gongaware: "Frank and I have discussed it already and have requested a face-to-face meeting w/ the doctor... We want to remind him that it's AEG not MJ who's paying his salary We want him to understand what is expected of him. He has been dodging Frank so far.” (ABC7)

On June 15, 2009, Gongaware sent and emai to Ortega in response to request for nutritionist and physical therapist for MJ. Email: We're on it. AEG owns major sports teams in this market so we think we can find the right people quickly. Kenny responded: Super.Not a minute too soon. Let's turn this guy around! (ABC7)

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 11 h
Hougdahl, in response to concerns expressed by Travis Payne about Jackson’s weight, wrote singer needed a new diet.
Email 6/15/09 from Hougdahl to Gongaware He needs some cheeseburgers w/ bunch of Wisconsin cheesehead bowlers and couple of brats and beers

Email from 6/17/09 from Phillips: ...Ortega, Gongaware, Dileo, and his doctor Conrad from Vegas and I have an intervention with him to get him to focus and come to rehearsal (ABC7)

Email from 6/17/09 from Gongaware to Phillip's assistant: "We need a physical therapist and a nutritionist" (ABC7)

There's that other part of an e mail by ortega, (Michael was slow at getting the word done) has been shown , but without a date , so we wouldn't be sure it's from the same events.

That "we need to remind him..." thing ended up in a planned "intervention", as per the june 17th email. PG can not have forgotten about this, or what it meant.

I think the meeting with Murray was around that time, mid june, and a consequence of this (hence the nutritionnist /nutritionnal person talk, PG not understanding why a nutritionnist was needed when Murray was there...).

So far, PG is the only one who testified about that. So his wersion was "it was to make sure Murray had everything he needed", which took an hour. I said this in a previous post, Phillips will testify to the same thing, Frank is dead (but related info may be found in his e mails) , i don't know what Kenny might say, and if Murray takes the stand, I think he would take the 5th on this (he would be lying as he certainly lied to AEG about the reason Michael had all those weird symptoms + admitting he discussed his patient's health with other people). When these different people will testify, we"ll have more info + maybe Kai Chase and the broken vase thing (I don't know which meeting it was)

they are impeaching Karen Faye who said Finkelstein was Michael's doctor.

PG said Finkelstein treated Michael in Bangkok. Actually he does impeach some of the things Karen said. Gongaware has too many contradictions , too many things that changed between his deposition in december and now (that would be good to list them).
Impeaching Karen with him is actually a must, and both are questionned by Panish. It's surreal

So that's why they used Elvis but Gongaware not even meeting Elvis hurt that claim.

PG changing Elvis's cause of death from overdose to heart ailment in just one day hurt PG's credibility.... (and his chances to get a medical licence). So yes, I agree with you, he is used because of his knowledge of dependency among other things. What is weird is that there were very few questions about History tour for ex.

It could be just a joke and actually show that they did not believe Michael had serious issues. My high school boyfriends mom used to tell me I need a good meal and if I stay with her for a week she would put meat on my bones. She used to say this to my face. Do you think it's disrespectful? Context is everything.

Yes context is everything.
I was trying not to pay too much attention to this stuff, but there are too many jokes/insults, from too many people, at the same time all this is happening. There is more to that. I edited a previous I made about that, so maybe you didn't see it, here it is :
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...ckson-vs-AEG?p=3833339&viewfull=1#post3833339