Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[bouee]

:
There is all sort of dates going around in my head.

And way too many details & people involved !! It gets confusing at times

 

[Bubs]

yes, it makes sense & that's my theory so far : They realised Murray was not doing his job, that's what I call negligent hiring & supervising. (Michael health's declining inspite of the fulltime 150 000 $ doctor = lazy incompentent doctor who even needs a nutritionnist to help so he can keep on doing nothing , incompetent doctor who later gets defensive = crappy doctor = major trouble ahead ) .

I quite don't get your line of thinking? They realised much later that CM is not doing his job, but how did they knew that at the time when MJ asked them to draft a contract? Nothing in his background said that he wasn't going to do his job, thus you cannot say negligent hiring. If they had any indication at the time of hiring (not established yet) CM doing his job badly,
then you can say negligent hiring, but it only appeared to them much later that CM in fact did do his job.
AEG didn't have Crystal ball that could have told them what a whack job CM was.

 

[bouee]

^^ yes, unsigned. They could have ended it , instead they kept sending him revised copies...

Some say they had a moral obligation to Michael, since he was his personnal doctor, so he should have been the one to decide.

Though I think AEG should have interfered, at least after the 19th. Instead Phillips backed Murray to shut kenny up, on 20th, before knowing MJ would appear to be better on 23rd

 

[Bubs]

And way too many details & people involved !! It gets confusing at times

If we are confused now, wait untill few more months of this :bugeyed
Probably don't remember any family members birthdays and conratulate them on date when Gonga sent email to Ortega, or when Frank sent an email to RP

 

[LastTear]

^^^^ The unsigned part is exactly why I still struggle to understand this lawsuit, despite Ivy's best efforts I am still at a loss to understand how they can be sued for negligent hiring if the contract was unsigned.

For me, I am almost certain AEG had no knowledge of the type of treatment Murray was giving MJ, and employed or not, Murray had no obligation to tell them.

 

[bouee]

I quite don't get your line of thinking? They realised much later that CM is not doing his job, but how did they knew that at the time when MJ asked them to draft a contract? Nothing in his background said that he wasn't going to do his job, thus you cannot say negligent hiring. If they had any indication at the time of hiring (not established yet) CM doing his job badly,
then you can say negligent hiring, but it only appeared to them much later that CM in fact did do his job.
AEG didn't have Crystal ball that could have told them what a whack job CM was.

What I meant that they could have thought, as they didn't see CM day time or around MJ during the rehearsals, that he didn't do his job and try to make MJ better. He was hired to be MJ's doctor, but he was never around and MJ wasn't improving so they thought CM was dodging his duties to make MJ better without knowing CM was doing his job at night time.
Just a thought of possibility.

"AEG didn't have Crystal ball that could have told them what a whack job CM was"

AEG are adults, with brains, and I think you are exactly right with your interpretation of PG's e mail. He wanted the doctor to do his job, make Michael better.

That's the same line of thinking we've been discussing already.

i agree with Lasttear, Murray was probably convincing that day. They even planned an intervention.

Personnally I can't understand how they can NOT wonder about him after june 19th. Back to Phillips decision on the 20th to support Murray 300 % AND shut Ortega up.

I suspect (suspicion only, no proof ) PG doesn't understand RP's decision either , hence his difficulties with keeping a plausible story straight, contradictions, etc... at times he sounds sincere to me. Like his remark "why have a nutritionnist when you have a full time doctor" It's basic common sense.

They were in the process of hiring him, they did not stop that process, interfere, or triy to get out of it with a cash advance to Michael.

 

[Big Apple2]

^^ yes, unsigned. They could have ended it , instead they kept sending him revised copies...

You lost me.

How could they have ended it? At that point, there was basically nothing to end, because the document was never completely executed and it's MORE than clear that Michael wanted Murray by his side, no questions asked. How was AEG supposed to overcome the request of THE ARTIST?

Also you say that "Phillips backed up Murray to shut Kenny up." Well didn't THE ARTIST do the very same thing when he said: "I know you're worried about me, but I'm fine." How does one overcome those words, when they are coming from a 50-year old adult?

 

[bouee]

^^^^ The unsigned part is exactly why I still struggle to understand this lawsuit, despite Ivy's best efforts I am still at a loss to understand how they can be sued for negligent hiring if the contract was unsigned.

For me, I am almost certain AEG had no knowledge of the type of treatment Murray was giving MJ, and employed or not, Murray had no obligation to tell them.

ANTI Hiring : unsigned contract, no payment from AEG to Murray, that' what I would call no formal hiring.

PRO Hiring : e mail agreements between AEG and Murray, they knew Murray was working with Michael, they knew Michael wanted Murray to be his doctor - that's what I would call de facto hiring.
Last draft was done on june 24th, Michael didn't have the time to sign it, AEG wouldn't sign if Michael didn't sign.

Supervising , negligence , again 2 lines of thought

ANTI : AEG could not guess it was propofol, background checks would not have helped/werenot necessary (Murray had been MJ's family doctor for 3 years, he was Michael's choice.

PRO : AEG had reasons to think Murray was a crappy doctor , they saw he was not doing his job properly, Michael's health kept declinig inspite of Murray's care.

I hope I summed it up well.


I'm pro both things. As for the negligence, so far , I think only Phillips had all the info to come to that conclusion, on the 20th. I'm not sure about Gongaware, I'm not sure about AEG, because Phillips decision sounds so crazy to me, that it even goes against AEG's best interests.

 

[bouee]

You lost me.

How could they have ended it? At that point, there was basically nothing to end, because the document was never completely executed and it's MORE than clear that Michael wanted Murray by his side, no questions asked. How was AEG supposed to overcome the request of THE ARTIST?

Also you say that "Phillips backed up Murray to shut Kenny up." Well didn't THE ARTIST do the very same thing when he said: "I know you're worried about me, but I'm fine." How does one overcome those words, when they are coming from a 50-year old adult?

by stopping negociating contracts with Murray, instead of sending him other revised copies, until 24th june.
trell said they could have made a cash advance to Michael, instead of entering into a contract with Murray. Murray would still have been Michael's doctor, so it wouldn't have changed anything, except that AEG could not be sued.

As for Michael's wishes it's a personal thing I guess. We wouldn't all react the same way.
I think Phillips made the worst possible decision when he chose to support Murray AND shut Kenny up. IMO, he could have fired Murray, or if he didn't want to hurt Michael, imposed other healthcare providers on Murray to keep an eye on him, and told Ortega to keep him updated about Michael's health, instead of calling him "hysterical" and using Murray to "keep Ortega in check".

 

[Big Apple2]

^^^^ The unsigned part is exactly why I still struggle to understand this lawsuit, despite Ivy's best efforts I am still at a loss to understand how they can be sued for negligent hiring if the contract was unsigned.

For me, I am almost certain AEG had no knowledge of the type of treatment Murray was giving MJ, and employed or not, Murray had no obligation to tell them.

I agree on both counts.

I mean, how were they going to "help" Michael if they didn't really know what was going on. They could have hooked Michael up with the best specialist the world has to offer, but if Murray continued to pump Michael full of propofol each night, their efforts would be been in vain.

As to the contract, the most outstanding thing about the unsigned for me is that there were TWO signatures missing. Not just one signature. I'm thinking that it might have held a little more weight if it had at least been signed by two of the three parties, but as we know, there is on one signature on the document.

Interesting thing is, IF Mother wins this lawsuit, thereby establishing that Murray was indeed an employee, does that mean that Murray has a claim for his 2-month payment? That would just be a tragic situation on top of a tragic situation, in my opinion.

 

[Big Apple2]

As for Michael's wishes it's a personal thing I guess. We wouldn't all react the same way.
I think Phillips made the worst possible decision when he chose to support Murray AND shut Kenny up. IMO, he could have fired Murray, or if he didn't want to hurt Michael, imposed other healthcare providers on Murray to keep an eye on him, and told Ortega to keep him updated about Michael's health, instead of calling him "hysterical" and using Murray to "keep Ortega in check".

You forgot Michael saying: "I know you're worried about me, but I'm fine." That in my opinion, is a the big fat elephant in the room.

When Michael saw all of the commotion as to what was going on and that folks appeared to be concerned about his health his response was "I'M FINE."

 

[bouee]

They needed MJ's permission.
.

Yes , i checked with contract, I think you're right, that's how I understand it too. AEG's lawyers should be on trial, IMO, I find this very very strange.

First they sign a contract when they could have done a cash advance, then they make a contract they can't get out of.

 

[bouee]

You forgot Michael saying: "I know you're worried about me, but I'm fine." That in my opinion, is a the big fat elephant in the room.

When Michael saw all of the commotion as to what was going on and that folks appeared to be concerned about his health his response was "I'M FINE."

I did not forget, I said it was a personal thing, that we would not all react the same way. I would have smelled there was something wrong, because he was obviously NOT ok : he kept losing weight ,his health was declining.

I don't know how that meeting went, from the accounts we have (Ortega's testimony at CM's trial) , it was tense. Maybe Michael just felt like kindly reassuring Ortega, I don't know. Which was what Murray should have done also, instead of scolding him (still as per Ortega's testimony).

We talked about that before, we don't know how Michael felt about that, we don't know if Murray would have made it to London.

 

[CherubimII]

By their very nature corporations breed corruption.
AEG is corrupt.

 

[bouee]

If we are confused now, wait untill few more months of this :bugeyed
Probably don't remember any family members birthdays and conratulate them on date when Gonga sent email to Ortega, or when Frank sent an email to RP

LOL ! We made it with Murray's trial in spite of all the medical stuff, we will make it with this one !

 

[LastTear]

by stopping negociating contracts with Murray, instead of sending him other revised copies, until 24th june.
trell said they could have made a cash advance to Michael, instead of entering into a contract with Murray. Murray would still have been Michael's doctor, so it wouldn't have changed anything, except that AEG could not be sued.

As for Michael's wishes it's a personal thing I guess. We wouldn't all react the same way.
I think Phillips made the worst possible decision when he chose to support Murray AND shut Kenny up. IMO, he could have fired Murray, or if he didn't want to hurt Michael, imposed other healthcare providers on Murray to keep an eye on him, and told Ortega to keep him updated about Michael's health, instead of calling him "hysterical" and using Murray to "keep Ortega in check".

Of course it was the worst possible decision but that is with the benefit of hindsight. Also we don't know Kenny, perhaps he could at times be 'theatrical', obviously with hindsight on this subject he was right on point, but we are talking of interactions between an 'creative artist' and a business person.

 

[bouee]

Of course it was the worst possible decision but that is with the benefit of hindsight. Also we don't know Kenny, perhaps he could at times be 'theatrical', obviously with hindsight on this subject he was right on point, but we are talking of interactions between an 'creative artist' and a business person.

I don't think Kenny was theatrical , he doesn't seem that way to me. I would understand if we were talking about Karen, but Kenny ? No way. Kenny knew Michael well, they had been working together for 20+ years. if kenny said something's not right, then they should have believed him. By "they" I mean Phillips.

I have sorted all the emails out in a post that I linked above. Look art what Phillips received and sent on 19/20th . He understood there was a big problem, asked for more info , thought about drugs and suddenly after 20th meeting decides to side with Murray AND shut Kenny up. Very very unreasonable , even with no hindsight. If he was conviced by Murray, why try to shut Kenny up ? Kenny was his best ally to keep an eye on Michael.

I can't wait for him to be on the stand , because no matter how I try to turn things in my brain, I can't understand it. Though this kind of attitude seems to fit what we know (very little I agree) of his personnality.

 

[LastTear]

^^^^ I probably didn't explain it very well, I didn't mean it in a negative light on Kenny, just meaning the manner he may come accross to a suit and tie kind of person.

Re Phillips, yes it will be interesting but I suspect they were concerned, called the meeting and Murray AND MJ convinced them everything was ok. Of course Kai Chase will testify that vases were smashed in that meeting but I don't know how credible she will be as I think she is now employed by Katherine.

 

[ivy]

@bouee

Could you start a new thread with your email post , I'll make it sticky and keep it open for you to edit it.

^^^^ The unsigned part is exactly why I still struggle to understand this lawsuit, despite Ivy's best efforts I am still at a loss to understand how they can be sued for negligent hiring if the contract was unsigned.

For me, I am almost certain AEG had no knowledge of the type of treatment Murray was giving MJ, and employed or not, Murray had no obligation to tell them.

In USA oral contracts are equally valid and that's why this is a question to jury.

Now the jury can get technical and say "two parties did not sign this contract, it wasn't executed so there's no employment" or they could say "the oral agreement and the negotiations and the draft of contract dated back to May is enough to establish employment". That's why we have a trial. It's a decision for the jury.

Of course they will then need to determine who hired Murray and the rest...

 

[LastTear]

@bouee

Could you start a new thread with your email post , I'll make it sticky and keep it open for you to edit it.



In USA oral contracts are equally valid and that's why this is a question to jury.

Now the jury can get technical and say "two parties did not sign this contract, it wasn't executed so there's no employment" or they could say "the oral agreement and the negotiations and the draft of contract dated back to May is enough to establish employment". That's why we have a trial. It's a decision for the jury.

Of course they will then need to determine who hired Murray and the rest...

Thanks Ivy, I think the reason I struggle so much with the subject of an oral contract is the nature of the service provided, I can understand an oral contract between a patient and a doctor but not involving a third party.

 

[jamba]

It seems to me RP was trying to do "damage control." He was trying to calm Ortega down by saying let's NOT be amateur shrink or doctor. So the idea was let's not speculate, let's have this meeting and ask the doctor and Michael what is going on. Until we have the meeting, let's not get all wound up with projections and possible scenarios of what is wrong with MJ. In a way, this was a sensible approach--talk about what's going on with the principals--MJ and CM, which they did the next day after Ortega's emails and MJ's chills, shivering, rambling, etc.

RP had called CM and talked for some time (must have been later the same day-- Ortega's email was sent early am of the 20th) on the phone and apparently CM had reassured him enough (told him what he wanted to hear) that RP said this doc is impressive. He was clearly wrong to say 'we check everyone out' b/c they didn't check out CM as PG said. But he was trying to do the logical, practical thing--talk directly to MJ and doc.

After seeing the video of the Cascio family and how Mrs. Cascio would cook all MJ's favorite meals, I wish she had been in Carolwood cooking for him!! But maybe he wouldn't eat it as he was trying to be fit for the tour--he told Kai Chase he didn't want to have the Comfort food on the Comfort Food Day she was suggesting due to his training for the tour. Just wish he had been babied a little by Mrs. Cascio--homemade pizza and turkey dinners.

 

[bouee]

@bouee

Could you start a new thread with your email post , I'll make it sticky and keep it open for you to edit it.

Done, thanks

 

[LastTear]

Bina shows an email from Ortega to Gongaware on Jun 14: "We're you aware that MJ's doctor didn't permit him to attend rehearsal yesterday? Without invading MJ's privacy, it might be good idea to talk to his doctor to make sure everything MJ requires is in place. Who is responsible for MJ getting proper nourishment/vitamins/therapy every day? Personally, I feel he should have a top Nutritionist and Physical Therapist working with him on a regular basis. The demand on this guy is mentally and physically extraordinary! The show requirements exhaust our 20 year olds. Please don't underestimate the need to stay on top of this" (ABC7)

Gongaware to Kenny Ortega that said “We want to remind him that it is AEG, not MJ who is paying his salary”. In his deposition Gongaware repeatedly said he didn’t remember the email or recall what it meant (AP) (from opening statements).
Another part of the same email chain, from Gongaware: "Frank and I have discussed it already and have requested a face-to-face meeting w/ the doctor... We want to remind him that it's AEG not MJ who's paying his salary We want him to understand what is expected of him. He has been dodging Frank so far.” (ABC7)

so the 'We want to remind him' was in response to Ortega notifying them that Murray prevented MJ from attending rehearsals?

Email 6/15/09 from Hougdahl to Gongaware He needs some cheeseburgers w/ bunch of Wisconsin cheesehead bowlers and couple of brats and beers

I have to ask, please tell me 'brats' are some sort of food in the USA?

 

[smoothlugar]

I Knew from TMez that "under California law you don't need a written agreement signed by ALL sides to have a contract" (min 1:28 http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2...p-point-mesereau-jackson-death-trial.cnn.html ), but my doubt still remains, whether executed or not, with the legal responsibility of each of the other two parts signing the contract over CM, who did what?

Another doubt, in the first draft of contract in May you mention, the producer was clearly the employer or it wasn't established clearly either?

In USA oral contracts are equally valid and that's why this is a question to jury.

Now the jury can get technical and say "two parties did not sign this contract, it wasn't executed so there's no employment" or they could say "the oral agreement and the negotiations and the draft of contract dated back to May is enough to establish employment". That's why we have a trial. It's a decision for the jury.

Of course they will then need to determine who hired Murray and the rest...

EDIT: I will answer my last question myself after recently reviewing what the lawyer who prepared the contract testified in the criminal trial against CM: the first draft was on June 15th, it was a contract for services, AEG would provide RCP equipment, the lawyer admits that that was included in the list provided to her by AEG (T.W.), though on June 18th she and CM talked about that equipment too...

 

[bouee]

It seems to me RP was trying to do "damage control." He was trying to calm Ortega down by saying let's NOT be amateur shrink or doctor. So the idea was let's not speculate, let's have this meeting and ask the doctor and Michael what is going on. Until we have the meeting, let's not get all wound up with projections and possible scenarios of what is wrong with MJ. In a way, this was a sensible approach--talk about what's going on with the principals--MJ and CM, which they did the next day after Ortega's emails and MJ's chills, shivering, rambling, etc.

RP had called CM and talked for some time (must have been later the same day-- Ortega's email was sent early am of the 20th) on the phone and apparently CM had reassured him enough (told him what he wanted to hear) that RP said this doc is impressive. He was clearly wrong to say 'we check everyone out' b/c they didn't check out CM as PG said. But he was trying to do the logical, practical thing--talk directly to MJ and doc.

to me, it ooks a little bit more than calming Ortega.

I think "this guy' is very likely Ortega . This mail was sent to Tim Leiweke & Gongaware's private accounts, behind Ortega's back- Gongaware, as we saw, did not receive it. Kazodi was Pg's private e mail.

Email on 6/20/09 from Phillips to LeiwekeComm and Kazoodi: This guy is really starting to concern me. Read his email and my response. Dr. Murray and I are meeting with MJ at 4pm today at The Forum. (ABC7)
Phillips also expressed concerns about Ortega, writing to Gongaware's private email address, "This guy is really starting to concern me." Gongaware testified Wednesday that he wasn't sure who Phillips was referring to, and his boss may have been expressing concerns about Jackson or Murray. (AP) Phillips sent this email to Leiweke and Gongaware's private email accounts. "Kazzodi" is a private email address that belongs to Gongaware
"This guy is starting to concern me," Phillips wrote in an email to Leiweke, Gongaware and Frank DiLeo. "It is not clear to me who 'this guy' is," Gongaware said. "I don't know what Randy meant here," Gongaware explained. "I can easily take 'this guy' is MJ here." (ABC7)

"Read his email and my response" : it can't be MJ.

That must be the response he's talking about :

Email on 6/20/09 Phillips to Ortega : Kenny it's critical that neither you, me, anyone around this show become amateur psychiatrist/physicians. I had a lengthy conversation with Dr. Murray, who I am gaining immense respect for as I get to deal with him more. He said that Michael is not only physically equipped to perform & discouraging him to will hasten his decline instead of stopping it. Dr. Murray also reiterated that he is mentally able to and was speaking to me from the house where he had spent the morning with MJ. This doctor is extremely successful (we check everyone out) and does not need this gig so he totally unbiased and ethical. (ABC7)

Email response from Philips to Kenny urging him, and everyone else, not to become amateur psychiatrists or physicians on 6/20/09. Email: "You cannot imagine the harm and ramifications of stopping this show now" (ABC7)

the date is not know for this one, I'm assuming it was after 20th meeting :

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 9m
Phillips email after meeting at MJ's house: doctor was fantastic and I think Kenny's hysteria will be in check once MJ was alert/attentive

After seeing the video of the Cascio family and how Mrs. Cascio would cook all MJ's favorite meals, I wish she had been in Carolwood cooking for him!! But maybe he wouldn't eat it as he was trying to be fit for the tour--he told Kai Chase he didn't want to have the Comfort food on the Comfort Food Day she was suggesting due to his training for the tour. Just wish he had been babied a little by Mrs. Cascio--homemade pizza and turkey dinners.

yes, you know, i think Kai did fine, it was probably something else, ie Murray's wonder treatment.



Now OT : what ? Pizza ? Video ? Turkey ? Where ? can ? I ? see ? it ? :woohoo:

 

[bouee]

Re: AEG Lawsuit- E mails

so the 'We want to remind him' was in response to Ortega notifying them that Murray prevented MJ from attending rehearsals?

yes

I have to ask, please tell me 'brats' are some sort of food in the USA?

???? I don't know

Maybe we should not talk in this thread, it will be confusing if we have 2 discussion threads. This thread is open so I can keep updating it when we hear of more e mails.

 

[LastTear]

Re: AEG Lawsuit- E mails

Yes, good thinking. I will copy that question over there.

 

[LastTear]

Copied from the email thread.

Email 6/15/09 from Hougdahl to Gongaware He needs some cheeseburgers w/ bunch of Wisconsin cheesehead bowlers and couple of brats and beers


I have to ask, please tell me 'brats' are some sort of food in the USA?

 

[qbee]

Copied from the email thread.

Email 6/15/09 from Hougdahl to Gongaware He needs some cheeseburgers w/ bunch of Wisconsin cheesehead bowlers and couple of brats and beers


I have to ask, please tell me 'brats' are some sort of food in the USA?

Yes it high calorie sausage :lol:

Also an American favorite for outdoor grilling

 

[Virre]

Re: AEG Lawsuit- E mails

Brat is a kind of sausage I think. Short for bratwurst.