Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Big Apple2]

He had repeated warnings and suspensions for not answering calls in time when he was on call (1 hour instead of 20mn if I recall correctly) . He was still licenced, so it couldn't have been anything horrible.
That reflected when Kenny tried to call him on 19th. Other than that, no.

Yeah, that would probably be considered a "small" matter. You know in America, they put doctor's up on a pedestal, like they are not human and can do no wrong.

 

[bouee]

She did speak. In fact she was protesting so much that the shows should be stopped that the higher ups wanted to get rid of her. This was demonstrated in the emails shown in court yesterday.

Yes, but unfortunately, exaggerating stuff all the time, being divisive and creating problems for years, sending hundreds of e mails did not help her case, she had a bad reputation that played against her.

 

[Big Apple2]

She did speak. In fact she was protesting so much that the shows should be stopped that the higher ups wanted to get rid of her. This was demonstrated in the emails shown in court yesterday.

Yeah she APPARENTLY spoke to everybody, except to the person who was having the problem. She was protecting her paycheck and her position, in my opinion. Why talk to everybody else, when the person with the so-called problem is supposed to be your dear, dear friend. I don't buy her story for one second!

Also, didn't she have some sort of relationship with Randy Jackson? If I recall correctly, she and Randy were responsible for RIPPING OFF some fans with their MJ Source scam. Some friend!!!

 

[gerryevans]

It's true, up to the point when Michael started showing disturbing symptoms, and his health kept getting worse in spite of a full time doctor being there. After that point, the connection should have been made.

I agree and a group meeting was held to find out what was going on. After the meeting, there were two good rehearsals, so I believe most would think the issues were being addressed.

Who knows what would have happened if MJ had survived June 25th. Would he have continued to appear to be getting better or would he have regressed? If he had regressed to his condition prior to those rehearsals, more proactive steps against Murray may have taken place, but it's just hard for anyone to know how this would have all worked out.

MJ is the only one who could have definitely gotten Murray out of the picture. We can say AEG could have refused to pay him, but if MJ believed he needed propofol, and Murray was his best recourse, I believe he would have still found a way to have Murray. However, MJ could have also begun to see the "real" Murray, and ditched him. We just don't know.

 

[bouee]

I hear you bouee, but EXPECTING to be paid and actually BEING paid are two completely different things. Expecting payment doesn't pay the bills.

I mean, anything could have happened between expecting to be paid and being paid. What if Michael DID change his mind at the last minute and decided that maybe it would be wise for him to hire an ON-CALL doctor once he got to London.

In my opinion, an actual magical e-mail would show that Murray was in fact paid by AEG, and the attachment to that email would be a copy of a stamped check from AEG's bank.

Aside from that, didn't somebody already testify that Murray was bugging AEG for payment, but AEG wouldn't budge until MJ executed the contract?

Yes, there were e mails between Murray, Timm Wooley, and this Brigitte Segal : Murray was asking for payment, Timm said no, not until the contract is signed by everyone, as per AEg's policy.

The problem with this, IMO, is that it happened to other employees, who were enventually paid - their contracts did not require Michael's signature, so they were signed after he died - They knew Michael agreed to Murray being his doctor, in fact that is going to be their defense , and they were already working with him for 2 months. Michael didn't have the time to sign it, the latest version was dated 24th june.

That's why the hiring thing is up for debate. On one hand, the formal arguments (signature/payments), on the other hand , the facts (Murray already working, conditions agreed upon by AEG and Michael, Michael agreed to Murray being his doctor).

 

[bouee]

I agree and a group meeting was held to find out what was going on. After the meeting, there were two good rehearsals, so I believe most would think the issues were being addressed.

Who knows what would have happened if MJ had survived June 25th. Would he have continued to appear to be getting better or would he have regressed? If he had regressed to his condition prior to those rehearsals, more proactive steps against Murray may have taken place, but it's just hard for anyone to know how this would have all worked out.

MJ is the only one who could have definitely gotten Murray out of the picture. We can say AEG could have refused to pay him, but if MJ believed he needed propofol, and Murray was his best recourse, I believe he would have still found a way to have Murray. However, MJ could have also begun to see the "real" Murray, and ditched him. We just don't know.

I agree, up to when you say Michael was the only one who could ditch Murray.

AEG could have. I agree it would have been problematic because Michael apparently wanted to keep Murray, and not being doctors themselves the decision was not easy, that's why I would have been in favor of a middle solution : supervising Murray with other healthcare professionals.

I - strongly - disagree with Phillips decision to support Murray and shut Kenny up. He made that decion on 20th, not knowing what would happen on 23rd, after the meeting and after getting tons of precise info that should have led him to suspect Murray. he wouild have wanted to know if there were other problems. I see that as even going against AEG's interests, it'a decsion that I can absolutely not undertsand.

About what Michael was truly thinking, I agree, we'll never know...

 

[serendipity]

She did speak. In fact she was protesting so much that the shows should be stopped that the higher ups wanted to get rid of her. This was demonstrated in the emails shown in court yesterday.

Actually the emails didn't say that Karen wanted the shows to be stopped. They were just announced and the preparations hadn't even started yet.

Ivy, you do not know me. You can repeat your opinion about what I know and do not know but, it does not make it true. You are aligning me with your negative interpretation of what the Jacksons did for their brother/son. It is interesting how it is being ignored that both the plaintiffs and defendants lawyers have stipulated that the Jacksons tried to help Michael with his issues and that it was unsuccessful. It is truly disappointing this kind of help is being looked upon as a negative.

Anyone who has long term dealings with someone with a dependency issue KNOWS it is a disease and those impulses have to be managed EVERYDAY of that person’s life. If you feel Gongaware innocently thought that Michael was clean, that’s fine but, he never said that on the stand or in any of his emails; that is your assumption.

Gongaware should KNOW that dependency is dealt with everyday and various ways it has been dealt with. He toured with Elvis and Rick James. Ask yourself why he was asked about who he worked with that had a dependency issue on tour. Tours are stressful for everyone, not just Michael.

Anyone truly close to Michael would know that any stressful situation and any unscrupulous person looking to take advantage of him through his issues, including a doctor, could influence Michael to destroy his sobriety that he worked so hard on each and EVERY day to maintain. Anyone who cares about a person with dependency issues knows their hard earned sobriety is too precious to assume anything less.

I think the plaintiffs would still have to prove to the jury they really tried to help MJ. Saying it in opening statement doesn't make it true/fact. That testimony surely would be interesting.

I don't get what you're saying about Gongaware - should he have assumed the weight loss and other problems were due to addiction?

 

[bouee]

Yeah she APPARENTLY spoke to everybody, except to the person who was having the problem. She was protecting her paycheck and her position, in my opinion. Why talk to everybody else, when the person with the so-called problem is supposed to be your dear, dear friend. I don't buy her story for one second!

yes, that's true, if she had Michael's ear she should have tried something. I don't think she was suspecting Murray, I'm not even sure what she knew about Murray, but she could have tried to talk to him to find out more info about what was going on.

 

[bouee]

The house in Las vegas, maybe ?

 

[gerryevans]

I agree, up to when you say Michael was the only one who could ditch Murray. (

I mean ditch him permanently. AEG could have ditched him in that they would not pay him, but if MJ still wanted Murray in the picture, he could have been, just not on AEG's dime. Murray was his supposed "family doctor". I don't think AEG or anyone was in a position to dictate to MJ who would or would not be in his life.

 

[ivy]

She did speak.

I believe they mean she did not speak to Michael about his problems. In her own words she avoided drug talks like plaque.

I TRIED to use YOUR example,without changing it, but eventually had to change it the problem was it was not reflecting the situation :

- a criminal record can be obtainable, Murray's supsensions were probably not obtainable by AEG
- it was hugely exagerated : a delivery guy ending up beating up client, with no previous warning signs while he was employed. Warning signs in your example would have been the delivry guy being over aggresive with clients, and you ignoring the clients complaints.
- delivery and beating up a client are not linked. Murray killED Michael doing the job he was hired for : being a "doctor".

see this is what I'm saying. delivery and beating up a person does not need to be linked. and the previous warning signs were records of violence issues and being fired from the previous job for fighting with a coworker. In my example the company would know about this if they ran a background check and checked the guys references / called up past work. So that makes it "knew or should have known". When you know that a guy had several complaints about beating a girlfriend and a coworker and so on, you can reasonably can come to the conclusion that he could be a risk to the customers. By hiring and sending him to customers homes, you are exposing the customers to this risk. Hence why the company would be found liable for negligent hiring.

In Murray's case there's no direct causation. Michael's known issues were with painkillers, not Propofol. Apparently no one knew about it. Murray's suspensions were about not returning a phone call for an hour and about not keeping proper records. No one can look to that and reasonably come to the conclusion that Murray would improperly treat someone in their bedroom. So Jacksons are dealing with a more indirect

Ivy, you do not know me. You can repeat your opinion about what I know and do not know but, it does not make it true. You are aligning me with your negative interpretation of what the Jacksons did for their brother/son.

and you don't know me. If it's going to make you feel better I'll remove you and express my unhappiness with the Jackson lawyers assumptions. One of my best friends is 10+ years sober. I know how hard it is, I also know he needs trust and the belief in him that he can do it, not constant suspicion.

Anyone truly close to Michael would know

do you think phillips or gongaware fits to this description?

 

[Diplomate]

She did speak. In fact she was protesting so much that the shows should be stopped that the higher ups wanted to get rid of her. This was demonstrated in the emails shown in court yesterday.

She did not speak to the world, to the police, to a REAL doctor about these "problems" Go to check her messages on twitter BEFORE 25 June 2009, she was very HAPPY to be in the TII production for the concerts of the Century with The King WHO WAS AT HIS BEST, READY TO ROCK THE WORLD. (her words)

Go to check her tweets.

 

[bouee]

Who knows what would have happened if MJ had survived June 25th. Would he have continued to appear to be getting better or would he have regressed? If he had regressed to his condition prior to those rehearsals, more proactive steps against Murray may have taken place, but it's just hard for anyone to know how this would have all worked out.

I'm not too optimistic about that. Michael was not as well on 24th already, though nowhere near the point of the 19th. He showed up at Staples Center wrapped uo in blankets. That cocktail Murray was making, propofol + benzos sound scary to me, given what we heard at Murray's trial.
I hope -though I don't think it will happen, it's not the point- that other doctors such as Ratner, Metzger, Adams or Finkelstein will give more info that will help understand the difference between TII and history tour, for example.

 

[bouee]

In Murray's case there's no direct causation. Michael's known issues were with painkillers, not Propofol. Apparently no one knew about it. Murray's suspensions were about not returning a phone call for an hour and about not keeping proper records. No one can look to that and reasonably come to the conclusion that Murray would improperly treat someone in their bedroom. So Jacksons are dealing with a more indirect

I think the opposite :

warning signs (Murray's inefficiency, arrogance , Michael's health declining while under is care) = crappy doctor= reason to think there will be bigger problems ahead that could go as far Michael's death.

to me, it's very direct : it's negligent hiring and supervising, Jacksons don't need to show a direct link with propofol, they need to show AEG knew he was crappy = so they were negligent in hiring THIS doctor.

If they needed to show a direct link with propofol, it would be impossible, there would be no trial IMO.

Their constant - and I agree sometimes bothering - references to painkillers is to keep it simple for the jury : AEG knew he had problems with painkillers in the past, they should have suspected drugs & a Dr Feelgood . It's just one red flag, in many red flags, thay want to show.

And propofol is not the "direct" cause of death, for lack of better words, Murray was convicted based on negligence. If he had used propofol correctly, Michael would not have died. It's his incompetence (and arrogance) that killed Michael.

 

[Bubs]

The house in Las vegas, maybe ?

That is what Tohme said the money is for, but we only have his words that MJ was aware of that money and it was to be used for buyng a house. He is as fishy as they come and I think he only gave some of the money back, not all and I think he has other things from MJ too.

 

[Diplomate]

I'm not too optimistic about that. Michael was not as well on 24th already, though nowhere near the point of the 19th. He showed up at Staples Center wrapped uo in blankets. That cocktail Murray was making, propofol + benzos sound scary to me, given what we heard at Murray's trial.
I hope -though I don't think it will happen, it's not the point- that other doctors such as Ratner, Metzger, Adams or Finkelstein will give more info that will help understand the difference between TII and history tour, for example.

You know, we already know the verdict for this trial about who hired Murray, it's not AEG it's Mike, so there is nothing new to learn in this trial about this question.

So I would like to have these doctors to testify what they did to Mike during his others concerts, we know Mike used Propofol before so I would like to know when , how and who gave him that before.

 

[Big Apple2]

She did not speak to the world, to the police, to a REAL doctor about these "problems" Go to check her messages on twitter BEFORE 25 June 2009, she was very HAPPY to be in the TII production for the concerts of the Century with The King WHO WAS AT HIS BEST, READY TO ROCK THE WORLD. (her words)

Go to check her tweets.

I remember those tweets Diplomate.

Homegirl was giddy with excitement. And she had PLENTY to say on her Twitter account, everything was wonderful, everything was good, she was happy, Michael was happy, the entire production team was happy.

I don't recall her ever saying anything about Conrad Murray during any of her happy tweeting times.

 

[Big Apple2]

So I would like to have these doctors to testify what they did to Mike during his others concerts, we know Mike used Propofol before so I would like to know when , how and who gave him that before.

You know I was just thinking, during Mr. Putnam's opening statement he said that Debbie Rowe would testify as to MJ using propofol before and her being in the room, to ensure everything was being done safely.

Which makes me wonder, like Nurse Lee, did Debbie Rowe ever tell Michael that it wasn't a good idea to use propofol for a sleep aid, because propofol would not help him get the proper type of sleep that a person requires to be healthy. If she makes it to the witness stand, maybe she will touch upon that subject.

 

[Diplomate]

I remember those tweets Diplomate.

Homegirl was giddy with excitement. And she had PLENTY to say on her Twitter account, everything was wonderful, everything was good, she was happy, Michael was happy, the entire production team was happy.

I don't recall her ever saying anything about Conrad Murray during any of her happy tweeting times.

Yes, seriously, her tweets were like, everything is perfect, we will be in London be ready the King is coming etc... just unbelievable to say things like that, when it was the opposite in fact? Lol, and she wants to be serious now, loooool , what a bitch.

You know I was just thinking, during Mr. Putnam's opening statement he said that Debbie Rowe would testify as to MJ using propofol before and her being in the room, to ensure everything was being done safely.

Which makes me wonder, like Nurse Lee, did Debbie Rowe ever tell Michael that it wasn't a good idea to use propofol for a sleep aid, because propofol would not help him get the proper type of sleep that a person requires to be healthy. If she makes it to the witness stand, maybe she will touch upon that subject.

If Debbie Rowe, knew about Propofol, and gave Propofol to Mike, she's guilty like all the others. Propofol it's not a remedy to sleep, it's useless this medicine.

Gonna be very interesting her testimony. Can't wait to see her on the stand, like the Jacksons, it's when they will testify that we will learn something. Something Dirty about their dirty bu$ine$$.

 

[Bubs]

Yes, there were e mails between Murray, Timm Wooley, and this Brigitte Segal : Murray was asking for payment, Timm said no, not until the contract is signed by everyone, as per AEg's policy.

The problem with this, IMO, is that it happened to other employees, who were enventually paid - their contracts did not require Michael's signature, so they were signed after he died - They knew Michael agreed to Murray being his doctor, in fact that is going to be their defense , and they were already working with him for 2 months. Michael didn't have the time to sign it, the latest version was dated 24th june.

That's why the hiring thing is up for debate. On one hand, the formal arguments (signature/payments), on the other hand , the facts (Murray already working, conditions agreed upon by AEG and Michael, Michael agreed to Murray being his doctor).

The difference between others and CM was that Karen and others were conractors, and CM was independed contractor.
That is the reason he didn't get any money before contract was signed by all parties but others did.


"AEG could have. I agree it would have been problematic because Michael apparently wanted to keep Murray, and not being doctors themselves the decision was not easy, that's why I would have been in favor of a middle solution : supervising Murray with other healthcare professionals. "

CM was supposed to hire a nurse to UK, but that was too late.

 

[StellaJackson]

Yes, but unfortunately, exaggerating stuff all the time, being divisive and creating problems for years, sending hundreds of e mails did not help her case, she had a bad reputation that played against her.

Can you show me these "hundreds of emails"? What specifically has she exaggerated, and in what way has she been divisive? The testimony so far seems to fully support everything she has said.

Everybody was happy, publicly, to be involved in TII, but we are now learning that the reality was quite different behind the scenes. If that criticism is to be levelled at Karen Faye then it should also be levelled at Phillips, Ortega etc.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Phillips also expressed concerns about Ortega, writing to Gongaware's private email address, "This guy is really starting to concern me." Gongaware testified Wednesday that he wasn't sure who Phillips was referring to, and his boss may have been expressing concerns about Jackson or Murray. (AP)
Email response from Philips to Kenny urging him, and everyone else, not to become amateur psychiatrists or physicians on 6/20/09. Email: "You cannot imagine the harm and ramifications of stopping this show now" (ABC7)


Whoever the guy was, Michael, Kenny, or Murray, Phillips was concerned. Of course, it's not 100% clear, but what I was fearing seems to be slowly beginning to show. I really hope I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about Phillips. We'll see how it turns out. My feeling is that it is possible that he knowingly supported Murray. I'm not saying he knew exactly what Murray was doing, i'm saying it is possible that Phillips suspected Murray, knew Murray was doing something not right, without knowing what exactly, and decided to side with him against Ortega, for the sake of the show.

I think it's clear from the context, despite what gongaware says, that the guy 'concerning' phillips is ortega. I also find phillip's attitude disturbing, he's already wanting to pull the plug on karen for voicing dissent over something or other relating to mj's health and wellbeing, and now is getting really concerned about ortega's very real and as it turned out entirely justified worries about mj's health. He's just totally committed to putting the show on the road above all else. God knows what happened in that meeting on the 20th at carolwood. But knowing the type of guy he is, all his previous statement about mj being 'locked in' his contract, how if he doesn't do tii, 'financial disaster' awaits, how it's a do or die moment for mj etc, the pressure being put on mj, and presumably murray, must have been immense. The rehearsals on 23/4 june were much better - clearly mj felt he had to pull something out of the bag or aeg would ditch him and prob bankrupt him, - but at what cost? Murray says he changed the medication from prop to benzos but who knows what really changed that week.

In any case, as far as i've read, the rehearsals on june 23/4 were the aberration to what had gone on during the preparations of tii, rather than the 19th june rehearsal which now appears to be a culmination of a growing problem. We've come a long way from those days where aeg declared mj's death was a complete and utter shock after weeks of productive and problem free rehearsals

 

[Bubs]

Ivy, I saw Alan Duke posted Gonga's deposition with his article. Where did he get them and is he allowed to post them to public?
If yes, can we get certain Jackson's depositions?

 

[Diplomate]

Can you show me these "hundreds of emails"? What specifically has she exaggerated, and in what way has she been divisive? The testimony so far seems to fully support everything she has said.

Everybody was happy, publicly, to be involved in TII, but we are now learning that the reality was quite different behind the scenes. If that criticism is to be levelled at Karen Faye then it should also be levelled at Phillips, Ortega etc.

One more time, there is no surprise here. AEG wanted the King to earn a lot of money, Mike wanted to do these concerts, to earn money, show his kids what he did before, and comeback for his fans.
Everybody saw Mike, too thin sometimes, drugged by Klein other times, not ready to dance sometimes, very good and in great shape sometimes, ready to rock the world sometimes.

No surprises, but who knew about Propofol ? Nobody except Mike and Murray.

 

[Big Apple2]

Everybody was happy, publicly, to be involved in TII, but we are now learning that the reality was quite different behind the scenes. If that criticism is to be levelled at Karen Faye then it should also be levelled at Phillips, Ortega etc.

In my opinion Ms. Faye CLEARLY flipped the script.

In my further opinion, homegirl was enjoying the attention from the fans she was getting. The more she said, the more the fans came out to follow her and delight in her every word. I have no idea if she was lying or not, but she was definitely enjoying the attention her HAPPY tweets were bring her.

She was happy. Michael was happy. And the fans she was speaking to were DEFINITELY happy that she continued to share little tidbits with them. In her little Twitter Sphere SHE was the star. LOL!

 

[StellaJackson]

I think it's clear from the context, despite what gongaware says, that the guy 'concerning' phillips is ortega. I also find phillip's attitude disturbing, he's already wanting to pull the plug on karen for voicing dissent over something or other relating to mj's health and wellbeing, and now is getting really concerned about ortega's very real and as it turned out entirely justified worries about mj's health. He's just totally committed to putting the show on the road above all else. God knows what happened in that meeting on the 20th at carolwood. But knowing the type of guy he is, all his previous statement about mj being 'locked in' his contract, how if he doesn't do tii, 'financial disaster' awaits, how it's a do or die moment for mj etc, the pressure being put on mj, and presumably murray, must have been immense. The rehearsals on 23/4 june were much better - clearly mj felt he had to pull something out of the bag or aeg would ditch him and prob bankrupt him, - but at what cost? Murray says he changed the medication from prop to benzos but who knows what really changed that week.

In any case, as far as i've read, the rehearsals on june 23/4 were the aberration to what had gone on during the preparations of tii, rather than the 19th june rehearsal which now appears to be a culmination of a growing problem. We've come a long way from those days where aeg declared mj's death was a complete and utter shock after weeks of productive and problem free rehearsals

I agree that what's coming out in court in the emails wholly contradicts what was being said at the time regarding Michael's state. Also, I think people will have a very different opinion of Frank Dileo when those emails come out.

 

[ivy]

and in what way has she been divisive?

I think this is a reference to the Ortega email I posted a few days ago. Ortega called Karen's behavior dating back to 10-12 years as awkward.

Ivy, I saw Alan Duke posted Gonga's deposition with his article. Where did he get them and is he allowed to post them to public?
If yes, can we get certain Jackson's depositions?

Those the exhibits admitted to evidence so he probably got them from the court. We can try to get them but probably after the trial.

 

[Big Apple2]

Ivy, I saw Alan Duke posted Gonga's deposition with his article. Where did he get them and is he allowed to post them to public?
If yes, can we get certain Jackson's depositions?

My "guess" is that if a certain deposition, or portions thereof, are played in open court, then they become public. That's just me guessing.

Maybe ivy can confirm how that works.

 

[Diplomate]

In my opinion Ms. Faye CLEARLY flipped the script.

In my further opinion, homegirl was enjoying the attention from the fans she was getting. The more she said, the more the fans came out to follow her and delight in her every word. I have no idea if she was lying or not, but she was definitely enjoying the attention her HAPPY tweets were bring her.

She was happy. Michael was happy. And the fans she was speaking to were DEFINITELY happy that she continued to share little tidbits with them. In her little Twitter Sphere SHE was the star. LOL!

And don't forget, THE WOMAN MIKE LOVED THE MOST !

lol

 

[Big Apple2]

I think this is a reference to the Ortega email I posted a few days ago. Ortega called Karen's behavior dating back to 10-12 years as awkward.

Yeah, because she was probably walking around telling anybody who would listen to her that EVERYBODY is jealous of her and that where ever Michael is, he needs to see her, she needs to be in his view at all times. She's a straight up looney tune, in my opinion.