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Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG
- Thread starter ivy
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Virre
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I´m reading through my word documents.. Karen talks a lot about Kenny, Travis, Zaldy and Frank. And how she is ashamed of herself for not helping Michael more. I have the same quote as Muzik, but I know there is another one, still reading through it all.
About his weight.. It was known to those closest to Michael he was resorting to taking drugs. I do not know who knew "what" he was taking (I didn't)...I was alerting those around me of my concerns and fears...so they knew, because I was telling them, and they were aware. I also expressed extreme concern over his weight.
No...he Michael had a contract. He was being pressured to perform. Kenny told me....that Michael was told: if he didn't straighten up..."they" would pull the plug on the entire thing.
...and "they", AEG was financing Michael's entire life.
Michael was pressured...and cornered.
Michael could not eat, he could not sleep....
so he turned to drugs for escape.
I continuously addressed Michael's weight with him...but he wasn't mentally strong enough to overcome his own frailties....he felt badgered, and manipulated day after day...it was difficult for me to continue advising him, so I went to those who i thought had more power to help. KO, and Frank Dileo.
KO told me not to "baby" him....he needed TOUGH LOVE.
KO told me AEG hired one of the top 10 doctors in the world for Michael.
She also said the mortician told her he weighted around 108 and 111
My first meeting with Frank, he told me I was to come to him with anything concerning Michael. He told me that Michael will probably tell me, he didn't sign on to do 50 shows, but that it would be a lie, because Michael was READ his contract before he signed it.....( READ his contract....shouldn't someone read his contract for himself?)
KO was very aware of Michael's failing condition (I had many conversations with him in Michael's last week) during rehearsals, yet he goes on TV with Randy Phillips....Oprah Winfrey....etc. saying Michael was in good health.
at least...I wish they had the courage to speak the truth. That they did not do enough to save Michael. I can admit it. I am ashamed I did not do more to save him.
And look at this, he´s always thin.
About his weight.. It was known to those closest to Michael he was resorting to taking drugs. I do not know who knew "what" he was taking (I didn't)...I was alerting those around me of my concerns and fears...so they knew, because I was telling them, and they were aware. I also expressed extreme concern over his weight.
No...he Michael had a contract. He was being pressured to perform. Kenny told me....that Michael was told: if he didn't straighten up..."they" would pull the plug on the entire thing.
...and "they", AEG was financing Michael's entire life.
Michael was pressured...and cornered.
Michael could not eat, he could not sleep....
so he turned to drugs for escape.
I continuously addressed Michael's weight with him...but he wasn't mentally strong enough to overcome his own frailties....he felt badgered, and manipulated day after day...it was difficult for me to continue advising him, so I went to those who i thought had more power to help. KO, and Frank Dileo.
KO told me not to "baby" him....he needed TOUGH LOVE.
KO told me AEG hired one of the top 10 doctors in the world for Michael.
She also said the mortician told her he weighted around 108 and 111
My first meeting with Frank, he told me I was to come to him with anything concerning Michael. He told me that Michael will probably tell me, he didn't sign on to do 50 shows, but that it would be a lie, because Michael was READ his contract before he signed it.....( READ his contract....shouldn't someone read his contract for himself?)
KO was very aware of Michael's failing condition (I had many conversations with him in Michael's last week) during rehearsals, yet he goes on TV with Randy Phillips....Oprah Winfrey....etc. saying Michael was in good health.
at least...I wish they had the courage to speak the truth. That they did not do enough to save Michael. I can admit it. I am ashamed I did not do more to save him.
And look at this, he´s always thin.
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uhmm not quite IMO. negligent hiring involves a "knew or should have known" portion.
so think like this (one of the examples I provided before)
I own a company, I hired Joe as a delivery guy. Jack places an order from me and I send Joe as the delivery guy. Joe attacks and beats Jack in his home.
It turns out Joe had a history of violence, he beat down his girlfriend, he was fired from his last job because he got into a fight with a co-worker.
So if Jack sues me , he would win the negligent hiring claim, because my delivery guy Joe beat him and if I just checked his references I would have found out that Joe is problematic. A guy with a history of violence beating another guy is a foreseeable possibility.
That's the truth.If Murray was doing a good job, Mike would still be alive.
bouee
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This story would be Joe beting up Jack, but joe never had a criminal record, so you could not know - As far as I understand, AEG could only have found out about Murray's debts, not the hospital suspensions. (could they ? I'm not sure anymore, so I'll assume they couldn't).
But Joe is constently late, regularly goes to the wrong address and you get complaints from clients. And you do nothing, because you think the clients are lying/eaxaggerating.
The problem of the story is that Joe does delivery, he can not be dangerous doing his job.
Imagine the same story with Joe being the electrcity guy, you constantly hear of problems about his job, you do nothing, and one day Jack's house burns down because of an electrical problem caused by Joe.
like I said the cause and effect needs to be direct in negligent hiring claims. For example Joe being late to work and going to wrong houses etc. in other words being a crappy delivery guy does not mean you could reasonably foresee that he's going to beat a customer. Reasonably foresee is the key here.
Jacksons do not have a direct cause. however they are arguing given Michael's history with drugs and Murray's debts, AEG could have added 1 +1 to come to the conclusion that Michael would have asked for drugs and Murray would provide them because he needed the money.
Justthefacts
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If Murray had been given Michael painkillers then I could see it. But I just can't with propofol.
AliCat
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Gongaware -- who has worked as a tour promoter for 37 years for bands including Led Zeppelin, the Grateful Dead and many others -- testified that the only artist he ever knew who was using drugs on tour was Rick James.
Gongaware is currently the tour manager for the Rolling Stones North American tour. http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/29/showbiz/jackson-death-trial/?hpt=en_c1
In the Criminal Trial, Gongaware testified he would not work with Michael Jackson if he were using drugs. When we watch the movie, "This Is It," we see Michael Jackson tuned into making sure the Show came to a finalization. Gongaware says that Rick James was doing drugs on tour, but it looks like Gongaware did not suspect this about Michael Jackson. June 23 and June 24, 2009, Michael Jackson rebounded from the scare from the previous Friday, in which a Saturday meeting was held at Michael Jackson's home to get to the bottom of his medical care. Kenny Ortega was called an "amateur" by the resident personal physician of Michael Jackson and Michael Jackson reassured all that were present that everything was fine. Apparently, Michael Jackson wasn't slurring on Saturday or looking glassy eyed and he seemed to be the Michael Jackson that signed on to do the Shows at the 02 Arena.
Gongaware is currently the tour manager for the Rolling Stones North American tour. http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/29/showbiz/jackson-death-trial/?hpt=en_c1
In the Criminal Trial, Gongaware testified he would not work with Michael Jackson if he were using drugs. When we watch the movie, "This Is It," we see Michael Jackson tuned into making sure the Show came to a finalization. Gongaware says that Rick James was doing drugs on tour, but it looks like Gongaware did not suspect this about Michael Jackson. June 23 and June 24, 2009, Michael Jackson rebounded from the scare from the previous Friday, in which a Saturday meeting was held at Michael Jackson's home to get to the bottom of his medical care. Kenny Ortega was called an "amateur" by the resident personal physician of Michael Jackson and Michael Jackson reassured all that were present that everything was fine. Apparently, Michael Jackson wasn't slurring on Saturday or looking glassy eyed and he seemed to be the Michael Jackson that signed on to do the Shows at the 02 Arena.
I looked but could not find where I read that. Sorry. I just remember that I read that AEG tried to get MJ to London earlier but he didn't show up, so they rescheduled the press conference for maybe a week later. It may have been a tabloid where I read this so not sure of the accuracy.
AliCat
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Jackson had also said, “God keeps talking to me,” testified a show producer.
I've read that Michael Jackson read the Bible everyday. To me that means he'd be able to quote quite a few Scriptures readily, at hand.
I don't think Michael was at all being delusional and that somehow this remark was some sort of symbolism.
To help a person cope with anxiety the Bible says to not be anxious about the next day. I think that Michael was doing his best to follow this adage.
Michael Jackson had a reputation that if he didn't want to do something work related he'd simply not do it. He'd walk.
I think Michael was still inspired to keep doing the Shows, the preparation, he was setting a good example with his good work ethic. He was going to get his message of love out there once again and bring people happiness and hope. It's 2 Bad that Conrad Murray saw dollar signs instead of his patient's health was at risked with what he was administering to Michael. "God keeps talking to me" is a sign of hope for Michael Jackson to see the Show through!
I've read that Michael Jackson read the Bible everyday. To me that means he'd be able to quote quite a few Scriptures readily, at hand.
I don't think Michael was at all being delusional and that somehow this remark was some sort of symbolism.
To help a person cope with anxiety the Bible says to not be anxious about the next day. I think that Michael was doing his best to follow this adage.
Michael Jackson had a reputation that if he didn't want to do something work related he'd simply not do it. He'd walk.
I think Michael was still inspired to keep doing the Shows, the preparation, he was setting a good example with his good work ethic. He was going to get his message of love out there once again and bring people happiness and hope. It's 2 Bad that Conrad Murray saw dollar signs instead of his patient's health was at risked with what he was administering to Michael. "God keeps talking to me" is a sign of hope for Michael Jackson to see the Show through!
8701girl
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Yes thank god for that cuz you could see it in his face he felt reasured that we did still love him
bluetopez
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At this point I'm just waiting for the Jacksons to win. Which I hope they do! "Gonzo" as some are calling him lol was a joke on the stand today IMO. Mr. "I don't recall!" -_-
Ashtanga
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An avalanche of stories/informations that we do not have a clue about what is truth or lie... my head hurts. *big sigh*
xKolix
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Okay, I'm going to start off by saying HELLO (I'm a noob).
On to the subject of the thread here; I was reading over the testimony of this case from the past month/last couple days, and I am just in complete awe over how horrible AEG representatives and even Michael's own manager acted in regards to him. It seriously made me want to cry. Horrible people. I just hope in the end, justice (and karma) prevails for Michael. I can't imagine how it must of been to live around people who truly have nothing but disregard for you, it breaks my heart.
On to the subject of the thread here; I was reading over the testimony of this case from the past month/last couple days, and I am just in complete awe over how horrible AEG representatives and even Michael's own manager acted in regards to him. It seriously made me want to cry. Horrible people. I just hope in the end, justice (and karma) prevails for Michael. I can't imagine how it must of been to live around people who truly have nothing but disregard for you, it breaks my heart.
bouee
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Okay, I'm going to start off by saying HELLO (I'm a noob).
.
Hello
& welcome to this boardIt is direct. That's why I took the electrician example. Crappy electrecian = burnt house.
Beating up clients is not related to delivering stuff, anyone can beat up someone.
Translated into Michael's situation :
1) Electrician = issue directly related to the job
Murray killed Michael because of the way he gave propofol. He was playing russian roulette with him, other doctors would have given it properly , and nothing would have happened. Murray was crappy at his job , another dr would have been better. Murray was working as a doctor when he gave Michael propofol.
2) delivery guy beating up a client = not related to his job.
In this case, it would be Murray accidently hitting Michael with his car, and killing him. That would be Murray doing something NOT related to his job.
Example 1 = there were signs Murray was a crappy doctor.
Example 2 = impossible to foresee, could happen to anyone
I think I understand you point about hiring , my point would be : hiring was not complete. That's why there is a debate over "AEG hired him". They were still processing hiring, it was underway, an ongoing process. So it can be said that it was negligent because all these things happened, and AEG didn't stop the hiring process : they sent another contract on 24th june.
I partially agree with the Jacksons, about adding 1+1 together. I don't agree with everything they say, but some points do make sense. They constantly refer to painkillers, which is annoying IMO, to show how misguided AEG were, and keep it simple for the jury.
I don't like it, but it still is a better argument than Michael is 100% responsible and was lying to the whole world, when HE was lied to. We'll see how Panish connects the dots in his closing arguments.
I agree he was a joke on the stand, as I said, I have this weird feeling he was covering up for his boss. Phillips was in the courtroom during some of the day.
He failed covering up for his boss, he was the Jackson's strongest witness so far. His remarks about how the doctor was not doing his job sounded sincere to me.
So far, I don't get why he is personnally sued, I don't see a reason, at least yet, other than his position during the tour. Maybe I will see a reason later.
Phillips is having a weird change of heart after june 20th meeting, now whe have this
Whoever the guy was, Michael, Kenny, or Murray, Phillips was concerned. Of course, it's not 100% clear, but what I was fearing seems to be slowly beginning to show. I really hope I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about Phillips. We'll see how it turns out. My feeling is that it is possible that he knowingly supported Murray. I'm not saying he knew exactly what Murray was doing, i'm saying it is possible that Phillips suspected Murray, knew Murray was doing something not right, without knowing what exactly, and decided to side with him against Ortega, for the sake of the show.
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Tygger
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ivy;3832284 said:
Phillips' email/texts (I cannot remember which) gave an account of what he had to do to get Michael to the press conference. The public does not know what happened in those 20 days with any of the players in this including Michael. Production cost may have been minor by this point but, profits were becoming clearer with the number of shows that could sell. The doctor makes his appearance in April 09.
ivy;3832284 said:
The email was posted? I have not seen this. However, the plug was pulled on Faye during the History tour and Michael was able to complete it with Gongaware working alongside. Any issues Gongaware may have remembered regarding Faye could be handled and that was most likely why she was allowed to stay around. I could be wrong but, I believe another makeup artist was Michael’s first choice for this tour, not Faye.
bouee;3832450 said:
ivy;3832458 said:
ivy;3832468 said:
Please do not forget Gongaware here. He was on the Dangerous and History tour, he conversed with the doctors, he was aware of Michael’s sleep issues on those tours and what may have been done to temporarily correct them. He was also aware Michael had sleep issues during the TII tour preparations.
Gongaware cannot invoke the fifth amendment but, he will continue with his convenient memory loss and confusion regarding the meaning of simple terms he said/authored. He could not be the Co-CEO of the 2nd largest concert promoter if he was normally this confused. Gongaware can remember working with Elvis and Rick James but, cannot remember what he meant when he authored emails 4 years ago. He seemed to also forget the situation with Dr. Finkelstein on the Dangerous tour.
Bonnie Blue;3831802 said:
Agreed.
AEG controlled the purse strings so I cannot believe Michael had more control than they had when it came to anything involving money. Gongaware fired Michael’s nanny for expense reasons (see below). Whenever something goes wrong and AEG does not handle it correctly, they blame Michael and say he wanted it and they were powerless to him; a stance that is unbelievable for me.
What does the AllGood situation have to do with AEG's alleged, implicit, and negligent hiring of the doctor? If the defendants bring this up, it will be a distraction that aligns with their deflection defense.
ABC Tweet:
From Ivy's Summaries:
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Petrarose
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Panish is implying that because AEG fired Grace they could fire Muarry, but according to one source from the court tweets, Michael's aide relayed the message to have her fired. To me, that means that Michael told his aide to tell AEG to fire her, so AEG could not fire the nanny neither Muarry on their own without Micahel's ok.
Bubs I agree that is good to see the sequence of the e-mails unfolding and getting the full e-mail, because now we can put more of the "smoking guns" into context.
Bubs I agree that is good to see the sequence of the e-mails unfolding and getting the full e-mail, because now we can put more of the "smoking guns" into context.
bouee
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I have updated the post with all the e mails sorted out (as much as possible, since the times are not always clear) , a lot were added today, especially from 19th/20th june.
Post is here :
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...ckson-vs-AEG?p=3828885&viewfull=1#post3828885
Post is here :
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...ckson-vs-AEG?p=3828885&viewfull=1#post3828885
bouee
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Obviously I'm not a nnative English speaker.
how would you guys understand this phrase, "circle the wagons" ?
Definitions that I found online:
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/circle+the+wagons
circle the wagons
to stop communicating with people not in your group to avoid their ideas or beliefs Americans are feeling it is an especially good time to spend time with family, to circle the wagons.
Etymology: based on the custom of bringing wagons (vehicles pulled by horses) into a circle when they are being attacked
See also: circle, wagon
Cambridge Dictionary of American Idioms Copyright © Cambridge University Press 2003. Reproduced with permission.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=circle the wagons
Look for protection, get defensive, get ready for an attack; from the old west where the pioneers would circle their wagons for protection from the Indians.
Week 4 of the 08 season the Buffalo Bills came back from a losing first half, rallied their defense, and kicked the St. Louis Rams butts. They had to circle the wagons in the second half to come back and win.
defense team rally ally work together
2. circle the wagons
Bringing your team back from sheer defeat to victory in heroic fashion.
When the Buffalo Bills (NFL franchise) "circle the wagons" to pull out a victory that was sure to be a defeat. (coined by Chris Bermen ESPN analyst) "Nobody circles the wagons like the Buffalo Bills."
Bubs
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I'm not native english speaker either, but in this situation I would quess they meant
2. circle the wagons
Bringing your team back from sheer defeat to victory in heroic fashion.
When the Buffalo Bills (NFL franchise) "circle the wagons" to pull out a victory that was sure to be a defeat. (coined by Chris Bermen ESPN analyst) "Nobody circles the wagons like the Buffalo Bills."
Something like they thought that TII was going to be big mess and it was time for all of them to pull together.
2. circle the wagons
Bringing your team back from sheer defeat to victory in heroic fashion.
When the Buffalo Bills (NFL franchise) "circle the wagons" to pull out a victory that was sure to be a defeat. (coined by Chris Bermen ESPN analyst) "Nobody circles the wagons like the Buffalo Bills."
Something like they thought that TII was going to be big mess and it was time for all of them to pull together.
bouee
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Tygger;3832645 said:
I think we have to be careful with this. Sleep disorder and pain are very serious issues that can have huge consequences. A doctor will have to deal with these issues. A doctor can not do miracles, and will have to try and find solutions : he will have to make tough calls, and decisions are not always easy to make.
Medication for pain and/or sleep is very often addictive. Progress has been made, but in the 90s available medication was not as good as today, and more addictive.
So , Karen I think said "balance of medication" : that's exactly what it's about. A doctor will try and find the right balance, that's his job, normally in the patient's best interest.
A doctor might have to chose to make a patient dependent to deal with pain or sleep issue, because lack of sleep or too much pain will be more dangerous than being dependent.
It can be extremely difficult to say when a doctor crosses the line, and 2 doctors can disagree on how to help a patient.
So I think Gongaware has a point when he says he didn't know Michael was abusing medication during the Dangerous tour. Having a problem with medication is not exactly the same as abusing medication.
And abusing medication is not necessarily the doctor's fault, if the patient is taking more than the prescribed dose.
What would be a valid argument is to show Gongaware knew there were unethical doctors, or that he started to have doubts, so that would be asking him how Finkelstein was brought on the Dangerous tour (if he was involved in bringing him on the tour? i'm not sure right now and don't have the time to re read Karen's testimony).
Bubs
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I agree with that, they were looking for finding him nutritionist.
I can see their line of thinking. They see MJ is losing weight and others telling them that too, Kenny tells them he has to feed him, so they think straight that he must eat = get in nutritioninst to advise MJ what to eat to get back track, and physical therapist to build up his muscles and strenght.
I can understand that they thought CM (as being a doctor) would know something about nutrition, but as MJ didn't improve, they thought they'd better get in an expert.
Bubs
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bouee;3832450 said:
We don't know yet what was said in that June 20th meeting at MJ's home, or do we?
June 21 : Michael spends father's day with Prince, Paris & Blanket and he also calls the Cascio family & the Lester family
puke but in the afternoon he feels sick and calls his nurse Cherilyn Lee.June 22 : For the last time Michael goes to Dr Klein's in Beverly Hills.
June 23 : Michael & the TII team start rehearsing at the Staples Center in L.A
June 24: Last day of Michael's life and last day of rehearsals at the Staples Center.
After those last two rehearsals everybody thought that old MJ was back as he was brilliant. What makes you think RP should have start suspecting CM? By saying that AEG should have noticed CM wasn't doing his job properly, you assume that they knew why MJ wanted him and what was his treatment to MJ.
We don't know whether they knew about MJ's need for doctor to treat his vitiligo and lupus, and whether they thought CM was there to treat those illnesses.
Like Gonga said:
“Well, Michael Jackson insisted on him, recommended him and that was good enough for me,” Gongaware replied. “It’s not up to me to tell Michael Jackson who his doctor should be.”
Be honest with yourself, would you have told Michael no you cannot have your own doctor, or if you take away MJ from the picture and insert any artist out there, would you still say no?
bouee
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I have repeated my arguments over and over again, Bubs about why I think Phillips should have suspected Murray.
- Phillips knew Murray was MJ's full time doctor (as opposed to simply MJ's doctor)
- Phillips was the most informed on june 20th about all the symptoms , he is even suspecting a "chemical" problem
- Michael's health declining, weight loss in spite of a full time doctor being there for 6 weeks is a problem, at least it should raise questions.
- About Murray's attitude , what we know from June 20th meeting is what was said by Kenny and Phillips at CM's trial. Kenny was scolded, which doesn't make sense from a doctor's point of view, which is confirmed by Phillips attitude to Kenny (hysteria)
- Gongaware , who also knows that Murray is MJ's FULL TIME doctor himself is not sure why a nutrionnist was needed when Murray was there full time.
Incompetence + arrogance = problem
EDIT : Phillips makes the decion to support Murray and shut Kenny up on 20th, ie before knowing Michael would appear to be better on 23rd. So it's not the reason why he makes this choice.
Kenny had been working with Michael several times for over 20 or years, he was worh listening to.
I will gladly post all the e mails I base this upon when I have more time.
I really don't know how Phillips is going to explain that, we'll see.
I am perfectly honest with myself. I said in a previous post that I had to deal with addiction (a family memeber) for 30 years. I know what I had to do, and what I did, to get her help. That included finding out who the doctors where, calling them to warn them she was getting prescriptions from 3 different doctors at least, call 911 on her (ie her own colleagues, as she was working in an ER), cut out all relationship until she got help.
Yes, I and others, I don't think I was a hero, told her to get rid of one particular doctor, over and over. If we had had the power to actually make it happen, ie cut the money to pay for this doc, I can tell you we would have gladly done that. Another family member, who is a doctor and became involved at a much later stage, called the police on her for driving under the influence, so her driving licence could get suspended.
it eventually worked, she stopped seeing that "doctor" and is better now.
If I go on being perfectly honest, I can admit that this experience makes me see things in a different way.
i was not prepared to deal with this, none of our family member were, though we all reacted the same way. My point is, when you think there is a danger , you DO something, not because you are a hero, but, in our case, because we were scared.
Incompetent & arrogant doctor + MJ's health declining = danger.
- Phillips knew Murray was MJ's full time doctor (as opposed to simply MJ's doctor)
- Phillips was the most informed on june 20th about all the symptoms , he is even suspecting a "chemical" problem
- Michael's health declining, weight loss in spite of a full time doctor being there for 6 weeks is a problem, at least it should raise questions.
- About Murray's attitude , what we know from June 20th meeting is what was said by Kenny and Phillips at CM's trial. Kenny was scolded, which doesn't make sense from a doctor's point of view, which is confirmed by Phillips attitude to Kenny (hysteria)
- Gongaware , who also knows that Murray is MJ's FULL TIME doctor himself is not sure why a nutrionnist was needed when Murray was there full time.
Incompetence + arrogance = problem
EDIT : Phillips makes the decion to support Murray and shut Kenny up on 20th, ie before knowing Michael would appear to be better on 23rd. So it's not the reason why he makes this choice.
Kenny had been working with Michael several times for over 20 or years, he was worh listening to.
I will gladly post all the e mails I base this upon when I have more time.
I really don't know how Phillips is going to explain that, we'll see.
I am perfectly honest with myself. I said in a previous post that I had to deal with addiction (a family memeber) for 30 years. I know what I had to do, and what I did, to get her help. That included finding out who the doctors where, calling them to warn them she was getting prescriptions from 3 different doctors at least, call 911 on her (ie her own colleagues, as she was working in an ER), cut out all relationship until she got help.
Yes, I and others, I don't think I was a hero, told her to get rid of one particular doctor, over and over. If we had had the power to actually make it happen, ie cut the money to pay for this doc, I can tell you we would have gladly done that. Another family member, who is a doctor and became involved at a much later stage, called the police on her for driving under the influence, so her driving licence could get suspended.
it eventually worked, she stopped seeing that "doctor" and is better now.
If I go on being perfectly honest, I can admit that this experience makes me see things in a different way.
i was not prepared to deal with this, none of our family member were, though we all reacted the same way. My point is, when you think there is a danger , you DO something, not because you are a hero, but, in our case, because we were scared.
Incompetent & arrogant doctor + MJ's health declining = danger.
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Bubs
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Yes we all base our beliefs of what we see, read and feel, so I understand how you came to your conclusion, althought I disagree some of it as we have heard only one side of the story, there is another side we haven't heard yet. I have stated my opposite opinion for your points, so we can agree to disagree on that
I personally haven't yet made up my mind. With my posts I'm just trying to point out that not everything is black and white, and trying to understand why people behave they way they did, and try to find reasoning for very odd things that happened. Also when I post my thoughts, they are just a thoughts, nothing is confirmed in my mind unless I state so, for example I'm certain that this case is about money. Katherine wants $, and AEG doesn't want to give it.
As you mentioned that experience made you see things differently, can you understand that people who doesn't have any sort of medical knowledge, or experince of that kind of situation don't feel the same as you?
Also, not all people are ready or willing to step in or get involve that kind of situations, especially if the person in trouble is someone you know, but at the same time, you are not friend or family member.
I could say that if I was in RP or Gonga's shoes, I would definately had done something or told MJ to stop seeing CM, but deep down and being honest to myself, I just cannot see doing so. Just like Karen F, M Bush or any other people who knew MJ and were concidered as "friends" of his, none of them went directly to MJ and say something, and those "friends" have seen all that before. If they couldn't say anything MJ to stop seeing his doc or warn him about CM, I think your chances with MJ would have been slim to none.
And for that reason, I have certain understanding that perhaps AEG people might have been thinking the same way (see how carefully worded sentence. Perhaps they just didn't want to get involved that aspect of Michael life and turned blind eye?
Btw, I thought it was Branca who asked about whether it was chemical or psychological issue?
Note, by hearing one side of the story, it does make AEG look like ignorant bastards, but I have only 1 reason why I have soft spot on for AEG (cannot reveal it) and that is the reason I want to hear their side of the story.
I personally haven't yet made up my mind. With my posts I'm just trying to point out that not everything is black and white, and trying to understand why people behave they way they did, and try to find reasoning for very odd things that happened. Also when I post my thoughts, they are just a thoughts, nothing is confirmed in my mind unless I state so, for example I'm certain that this case is about money. Katherine wants $, and AEG doesn't want to give it.
As you mentioned that experience made you see things differently, can you understand that people who doesn't have any sort of medical knowledge, or experince of that kind of situation don't feel the same as you?
Also, not all people are ready or willing to step in or get involve that kind of situations, especially if the person in trouble is someone you know, but at the same time, you are not friend or family member.
I could say that if I was in RP or Gonga's shoes, I would definately had done something or told MJ to stop seeing CM, but deep down and being honest to myself, I just cannot see doing so. Just like Karen F, M Bush or any other people who knew MJ and were concidered as "friends" of his, none of them went directly to MJ and say something, and those "friends" have seen all that before. If they couldn't say anything MJ to stop seeing his doc or warn him about CM, I think your chances with MJ would have been slim to none.
And for that reason, I have certain understanding that perhaps AEG people might have been thinking the same way (see how carefully worded sentence
. Perhaps they just didn't want to get involved that aspect of Michael life and turned blind eye?Btw, I thought it was Branca who asked about whether it was chemical or psychological issue?
Note, by hearing one side of the story, it does make AEG look like ignorant bastards, but I have only 1 reason why I have soft spot on for AEG (cannot reveal it
) and that is the reason I want to hear their side of the story.- Status