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Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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bouee said:
Frankly , I feel closer to Debbie, or Kenny, or how I imagine them to be. I could not stand Karen more than 5 mn, and it would be : "either you calm down and start respecting people, or you just go"

As for Michael, he probably asked Debbie to apologise, to allow a "fresh start" between them. I'm sure Debbie made it very colorfully clear to Karen how she felt about her when she was fired, so apologising was necessary from a diplomatic point of view, to calm down Karen.
From Debbie's point of view, it must have been purely diplomatic : I suppose she wouldn't need to be asked if she wanted to apologise.

That is IF we believe Karen's story !
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We have only KF's words that apologising thingy even happened, and to be honest I think it was all Karen's imagination.
I don't know if you have seen the clip of Debbie threatening to kick pap's arse if he touches her, and they way she talked last weeked on twitter to one stalker. I don't see Debbie as someone to be bullied by anyone, or taking orders from anyone,
unless she was madly in love with MJ and wanted to do anything for him:)
 
Bubs said:
I don't know if you have seen the clip of Debbie threatening to kick pap's arse if he touches her, and they way she talked last weeked on twitter to one stalker. I don't see Debbie as someone to be bullied by anyone, or taking orders from anyone,
unless she was madly in love with MJ and wanted to do anything for him:)
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Or reeeeaaally didn't care about Karen !
 
ivy said:
Do you have an exact quote for what Karen said about locking the doors?
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Muzikfactory has some of KF's tweets saved http://muzikfactorytwo.blogspot.ie/2011/09/karen-faye-facebook-comments-about.html
Karen wrote:
In my opinion Frank D is lying. I do not think Frank knew MJ as well as he thinks :)smilerolleyes:).
When I was in Michael's dressing room during rehearsals, he would ask me, "please do not let Frank in here".

Big Apple2 said:
Now is it just me, or has Mr. Panish lost the plot? I mean, what happened to the EVIDENCE regarding the claims of "AEG negligently hired and supervised Conrad Murray."
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No, he couldn't have lost the plot if he never had it beginning with. They are busy trying to get settlement before AEG bring out their witnesses, their chances for settlement are getting slimmer by each day of testimonies.
 
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^^ there could be something. Not long ago, I saw somewhere on this forum a tweet from someone from Frank's family saying that it was Joe and katherine who asked him to be Michael's manager, it sounded like they were insisting.

It was posted when we heard the news that Frank's computer was found.

I thought , but it's just a thought since I don't know much about it, that it was maybe linked to the Allgood stuff.
 
bouee said:
^^ there could be something. Not long ago, I saw somewhere on this forum a tweet from someone from Frank's family saying that it was Joe and katherine who asked him to be Michael's manager, it sounded like they were insisting.

It was posted when we heard the news that Frank's computer was found.

I thought , but it's just a thought since I don't know much about it, that it was maybe linked to the Allgood stuff.
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If I recall correctly, that tweet came from Frank's niece and homegirl was HEATED.

She did say something about being at her uncle's house when Mother and Joe Jackson called BEGGING him to be Michael's manager again.

If any of that information is found within Frank's emails, it will be very, VERY embarrassing for the Jacksons, in my opinion. Especially if Frank talks about WHY they wanted him to be Michael's manager again and that it just "might" have something to do with that AllGood Entertainment Family Reunion Concert.
 
and I believe Frank's niece.

Late 2008 Allgood met with Joe Jackson and Leonard Rowe and Joe told them to talk to Michael's manager Frank Dileo. I wouldn't be surprised if Joe Jackson called Dileo and asked him to be Michael's manager and convince him to do the Allgood concert.
 
ivy said:
and I believe Frank's niece.

Late 2008 Allgood met with Joe Jackson and Leonard Rowe and Joe told them to talk to Michael's manager Frank Dileo. I wouldn't be surprised if Joe Jackson called Dileo and asked him to be Michael's manager and convince him to do the Allgood concert.
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I believe her also.

Further, I remember the AllGood honcho saying something like: "Joe Jackson told him to get in touch with Frank DiLeo, because Michael would listen to Frank." (Or words to that effect.)

In my opinion, Mother and Joe needed Frank to be on their side with the whole Family Reunion thing, i.e. MJ might not listen to us, but he will listen to Frank DiLeo.

So if they wanna call AEG "sneaky," they best take a look in the mirror themselves!
 
Speaking of the whole "AllGood Entertainment" saga. Does anybody think it will make it's way into Mr. Putnam's presentation?
 
I am still glad that Michael announced the concerts himself. No one knew what would happen in just a few months. I am glad he saw the love himself.
 
What was Karen talking when she said it was dangerous and impractical for MJ? Was it about the shows being every other day or something else? The email is not very clear on that.
 
^^ Karen of Arc knows what is best for MJ. She said that before she even talked to MJ, so what made her to say that?

"In another March 25, 2009, email, Ortega wrote Gongaware that it was Faye's "strong opinion that this is dangerous and impractical with consideration to MJ's health and ability to perform." The singer died June 25, 2009, as he was rehearsing for the tour."

Karen said that in March, before any rehearsals and before MJ's brough CM to the picture.
Karen says there that MJ had health problems before CM came to picture, and she says it is dangerous. What does it tell to jury?

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I wonder if that not letting Frank in to his dressing room is something that Karen made up or was it 1 time that MJ didn't want to see Frank?
Certainly Frank wasn't pushing MJ to do Allgood concert the same time when he was preparing to do 50 concerts in UK so it doesn't seem plausible. What other reason MJ would have not to want to see Frank as he was his manager?
The more I think about it, the more I think Karen made it up or read the situation incorrectly!
 
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Bubs said:
We have only KF's words that apologising thingy even happened, and to be honest I think it was all Karen's imagination.
I don't know if you have seen the clip of Debbie threatening to kick pap's arse if he touches her, and they way she talked last weeked on twitter to one stalker. I don't see Debbie as someone to be bullied by anyone, or taking orders from anyone,
unless she was madly in love with MJ and wanted to do anything for him:)
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I don't like Karen Faye, and I'm not a fan of Debbie, but I don't see Debbie, the big strong woman , saying " I'm so sorry Karen,let's be friend ok? "

lol, Debbie must testify soon, so let's wait to see if it happened like KF said. IF it really happened!
 
^^ What I can see Debbie saying to Karen: Do you want your arse kicked, but I cannot see her bending over backwards to be nice to Karen:)


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Btw, earlier on this thread there was some talk about MJ's weigh and what Karen said about it. She wrote in her tweets from 2009 that she talked to LMP about MJ's weight, and she said to her that MJ was never over 120.
Didn't his autopsy report say that he was around that weight at the time of his death?
So MJ was always thin, apart some occassion he put on some weight.
 
Bubs said:
^^ What I can see Debbie saying to Karen: Do you want your arse kicked, but I cannot see her bending over backwards to be nice to Karen:)




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Btw, earlier on this thread there was some talk about MJ's weigh and what Karen said about it. She wrote in her tweets from 2009 that she talked to LMP about MJ's weight, and she said to her that MJ was never over 120.
Didn't his autopsy report say that he was around that weight at the time of his death?
So MJ was always thin, apart some occassion he put on some weight.
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If we check pictures trough the years, Mike put on some weight just in 2001 for me., and was very muscular during the HIStory Tour. Except that, Mike was always thin, when you see the video Thriller, he is really thin for a man of 1m80.
He's the only brother to be thin, all the other became big ( Ragu and Tito) Jermaine and Jackie are big guys, but they never were thin, only Mike was thin and stayed thin.

So his weight , for me, in 2009 it's normal
 
I think the fuss about the weight is a misunderstanding : he was thin, which was not a problem in itself, but would have been a problem to do 50 shows.
So he needed to put on weight. The problem was he lost weight, instead of putting on weight. The weight loss is the problem, not the weight itself.
 
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Diplomate said:
I don't like Karen Faye, and I'm not a fan of Debbie, but I don't see Debbie, the big strong woman , saying " I'm so sorry Karen,let's be friend ok? "

lol, Debbie must testify soon, so let's wait to see if it happened like KF said. IF it really happened!
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yeah, "let's be friends" would have been inaudible (lol! ), and that would not have been the point. It could have been something like "I shouldn't have called you a :censored: and I shouldn't have thrown half of your make up kit at your face , maybe that was a littlle bit too much".

I think Debbie can understand it, she can deal with the Jacksons about the kids, I think Debbie is mature enough to deal with Karen, and not get into the stupid fights Karen seem to sart all the time. Really, apologise or no apologise is no big deal.

Anyway, I hope we will never know, and that they won't sink as low as Karen by asking Debbie ! Karen speaks for herself,there's no need for the lawyers to dwell on this kind of subjects. They have 105237 other ways to discredit a lot of her exaggerations.
 
Autopsy report said 136 pounds, and his insurance examiner wrote 2/4/2009 that MJ's weight was 127 pounds, so it doesn't look like he lost any weight in those months? There was a 9 pound difference and I don't think that emt men pumped him that amount of liguid (or what is it called?) so you can say perhaps he put on few pounds.
 
Bubs said:
Autopsy report said 136 pounds, and his insurance examiner wrote 2/4/2009 that MJ's weight was 127 pounds, so it doesn't look like he lost any weight in those months? There was a 9 pound difference and I don't think that emt men pumped him that amount of liguid (or what is it called?) so you can say perhaps he put on few pounds.
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At first it was not clear to me, about the weight loss, I didn't know if I should believe it or not. I believe it now, because we have too many people who said they saw it. Travis said that, Orteaga said he was told by a choregrapher (maybe Travis).
It will be definitely clearer when Bush testifies (well according to karen , he saw MJ's heart beat through his skin !He should know !)
It was maybe not that obvious when MJ was dressed , because Orteaga doesn't mention it directly, but others saw it, so I believe it now.
I don't know if that's possible, maybe he was getting more muscle while losing something else, fat probably. Which would have made his weight go up or remain stable, but he would have looked thinner.
 
bouee said:
At first it was not clear to me, about the weight loss, I didn't know if I should believe it or not. I believe it now, because we have too many people who said they saw it. Travis said that, Orteaga said he was told by a choregrapher (maybe Travis).
It will be definitely clearer when Bush testifies (well according to karen , he saw MJ's heart beat through his skin !He should know !)
It was maybe not that obvious when MJ was dressed , because Orteaga doesn't mention it directly, but others saw it, so I believe it now.
I don't know if that's possible, maybe he was getting more muscle while losing something else, fat probably. Which would have made his weight go up or remain stable, but he would have looked thinner.
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re seeing your heart beat through the skin, some people on another forum said they can see their own the same way. I am not slender or thin, but if you are, apparently, this is not something unusual. Most people in USA are overweight--myself included.

re the press conference, I read that MJ did not show for the first scheduled flight to London. He did not go. They rescheduled, so it looks like it was true that he was not up for the press conference and would have preferred to avoid it.
 
I have to post thiis bit as it made me giggle:
Jurors were later shown a police summary of the meeting.
“The topic of the meeting was Jackson’s overall health, i.e., diet, stamina and his weight,” the document read. “Jackson had missed a rehearsal and was thought to be dancing at home. However they discovered he was only watching video. Doctor Murray was receptive to their concerns and indicated he would take care of the situation.”


I can imagine the situation, MJ was supposed to be dancing at home, but he decided he has better things to do :D
I wonder was he watching Three Stooges?
 
jamba said:
re the press conference, I read that MJ did not show for the first scheduled flight to London. He did not go. They rescheduled, so it looks like it was true that he was not up for the press conference and would have preferred to avoid it.
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Where did you read that? If he didn't want to do the concerts, he could say no, like he did in summer 2007 or 2006 if I remember, when he said to AEG he was not ready.
 
Big Apple2 said:
Speaking of the whole "AllGood Entertainment" saga. Does anybody think it will make it's way into Mr. Putnam's presentation?
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Really I hope it!
Frank cannot speak because he is gone. But there was a trial and so there are documents.

And -perhaps and I hope it also- there is this really nice book from Leonard Rowe and he is -true or not true- detailed telling the story.


AllGood and Joes/Katherines dream about a re-union J5 was the beginning of Michaels pain and distress.

After that follows:

- March 04,2009 MJJ Productions, file a lawsuit in Los Angeles Superior Court on against Julien's Auction House.
(it is one day before Michaels announcement!)

- January 2009 John Landis filed suit against Michael, claiming he's owed royalties for his work on the iconic promo and related spin-offs.
(from the Thriller-Video)

- May 05, 2009 Ola Ray files a lawsuit against Michael over unpaid royalties
(Michael's partner in the Thriller-Video)

- May 07, 2009 Ramnone Bayne files a lawsuit against Michael about 46 Millions US-Dollar

- May 11, 2009 Patrick Allocco (AllGood) fired off a cease and desist letter to AEG, organizing the London concerts, demanding that the show not go on.

- May 15., 2009 In an official statement Michael's brothers (Jackie, Tito, Jermaine, Marlon and Randy Jackson) have denied they were in any way involved with a proposed Jackson 5 reunion concert in Texas on July 3rd claimed this week by New Jersey concert promoters AllGood Entertainment.

June 10. 2009 AllGood files a lawsuit against Michael about 40 millions US-Dollar minimum


This is an answer to the question why was Michael unable to sleep and what was with Michael's psyche.....
 
^^ Good work. I knew all of those, but to put it that way in time order makes you think the pressure Michael was under and not only for TII but other things that was going on at the same time.
The amount of money that they were looking from MJ was astonishing, Allgood and Bain together $86 million!
It certainly wasn't easy job to be Michael Jackson:(
 
Panish showed emails in which Gongaware emailed others at AEG telling them Jackson needed a nutritionist and physical therapist.
“I was trying to find a nutritionist, but I wasn’t involved in his nutrition,” Gongaware said.
One of Gongaware’s emails was sent on June 15, 2009 - 10 days before Jackson’s death. It was titled “Nutritionist and Physical Therapist.”
“We are on it,” Gongaware wrote to “This Is It” tour director Kenny Ortega, noting that AEG has sports teams and could find the right people
Ortega replied: “Super. Not a minute too soon. Let’s turn this guy around!”

Is it me, but that looks like AEG was really trying to help Michael. They were looking into getting Physical therapist and nutritionists on board so they weren't thinking MJ worsening condition wasn't CM's doing.
 
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Bubs said:
It certainly wasn't easy job to be Michael Jackson:(
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True dat!

And I have to admit, when that AllGood lawsuit came down, it made me SO mad, because if it weren't for Joe, Mother, and Leonard Rowe, now of that would have ever happened. Reminds me of the Moonie's lawsuit, wherein the family sticks their nose in Mike's business and he ends up being sued.
 
Big Apple2 said:
True dat!

And I have to admit, when that AllGood lawsuit came down, it made me SO mad, because if it weren't for Joe, Mother, and Leonard Rowe, now of that would have ever happened. Reminds me of the Moonie's lawsuit, wherein the family sticks their nose in Mike's business and he ends up being sued.
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True dat too! Thats a story of Michael. His family messes up, and he end up taking the heat and pay for it.
He had enough on his plate without family messing around and causing more headache for him.
 
Bubs;3832440 said:
Panish showed emails in which Gongaware emailed others at AEG telling them Jackson needed a nutritionist and physical therapist.
“I was trying to find a nutritionist, but I wasn’t involved in his nutrition,” Gongaware said.
One of Gongaware’s emails was sent on June 15, 2009 - 10 days before Jackson’s death. It was titled “Nutritionist and Physical Therapist.”
“We are on it,” Gongaware wrote to “This Is It” tour director Kenny Ortega, noting that AEG has sports teams and could find the right people
Ortega replied: “Super. Not a minute too soon. Let’s turn this guy around!”
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Well, in my opinion, AEG was definitely TRYING to help Michael. Only problem is the person who was doing all of the damage - Conrad Murray - was also a person Michael apparently trusted over everybody else.

If they knew what Murray was actually up to, I'm not sure what they could have done, aside from putting Murray on BLAST, which would mean putting Michael on blast also. What a freakin mess!
 
It also shows that they thought Michael's problems were about his weight and agility. They did not consider a pain killer or Propofol issue.
 
Yeah, I believe they tried to help up until that point. They acknowledged there was a physical health problem, ie NOT mental.
I'm ready to believe they didn't suspect Murray, up until 20th.

After the 20th, I can't believe it, at least I don't think it is acceptable that Phillips did not suspect Murray.

I don't think the Jacksons need to prove AEG knew about propofol or painkillers. They just need to show that Murray was not a good doctor, and that AEG should have noticed Murray was not doing his job properly. It's negligent hiring and supervising.
 
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