Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Tygger]

the answer is still the same. Michael being blameworthy was and still is a plausible defense. Like I said neither Walgren nor Jacksons are denying Michael asked for Propofol or wanted Murray.

The difference is that in the criminal trial for the involuntary manslaughter charge all that was required Murray to be a substantial factor in Michael's death. Not the only factor or the sole factor. As Murray's defense was trying to prove Murray wasn't a substantial factor, their defense was tailored as Michael being the only factor by claiming Michael drank, self medicated, self injected. Dr. Shafer did a good job in ruling out Michael probably was not only factor and probably the actions that killed Michael (leaving him on a drip not monitored or not calling 911) came from Murray. Hence Murray was a substantial factor.

But that did not mean jury thought Michael had no role or no responsibility in what happened. They just did not buy Murray's defense of "I did nothing, it was all Michael".

I agree completely with these thoughts for the criminal trial because of the charge.

In the civil trial, the charge is the negligent hiring of the doctor and supervising him. The defense to that charge is Michael and his mother are blameworthy for his passing. The criminal trial already proved, as Ivy said above, the doctor was a substantial factor in Michael’s passing. For the defense to not recognize the role of the doctor is to deflect the doctor’s responsibility and in turn, their responsibility if the jury believes AEG had a relationship with the doctor.

It may have been better to play up the doctor’s responsibility and shout about the doctor’s duplicity as Bouee states in the post above, and others in the thread have said. However, you cannot plead to a lesser claim in a civil trial and the settlement window is most likely closed.

I guess my question is not clear because it is not clear in my mind how deflection will be successful to a jury. We shall see.

It seems AEG’s defense is: if they do not say out loud they did not hire the doctor then, hopefully no juror will suspect that they did; the jurors will seek blame elsewhere. It is like the child who steals the toy but stays quiet while they and the other children are punished hoping no one will suspect them as the thief.

This will be a VERY important week in the trial.

 

[bouee]

At first I thought the logic behind's AEG strategy , was to just not talk about Murray, because if you say he lied to you, you are admitting that you failed at supervising him.

After those latest e mails (particualry Houghdahl's), and when you put the e mails together, i'm thinking "he lied to us" wouldn't fly, because it became obvious something was wrong with Murray.

So they will put the blame 100% on Michael, at the same time it will help reduce the potential damage- saying Michael was knowingly doing dangereous stuff, Michael was ignoring the risks and ignoring the problems he had in June 09 to keep taking propofol, Michael will be the one who lied to Murray (when it was the other way round) , etc.. brace yourself, I expect it to be much worse than what the Jacksons are saying. I hope I'm wrong.

They're going after the Jacksons to show that the Jacksons themselves did what they accuse AEG of : put Michael on stage no matter what. It's a way to say , "you also contributed to the situation, you deserve nothing" , AEG is trying to reduce the potential damage with this , I think.

 

[soulmum]

^Blame the victim time again.

 

[ivy]

Well there's a reason for that

Jacksons want a verdict form that puts "Murray & AEG" on the same line and argue as AEG is Murray's employee they share the same responsibility in Michael's death. If the verdict form is finalized this way you can understand why AEG cannot or will not be willing to accept Murray's responsibility and focus on Michael.

so I hope you understand that in a lawsuit where Jacksons say "AEG is totally and directly responsible for Murray's action because Murray is AEG's employee", AEG cannot say "Murray is a substantial factor". If they do and if the jury agrees with Jacksons that AEG hired Murray, AEG would be in trouble

It's the same reason why Murray blamed Michael during criminal trial. The only way Murray could say that he wasn't substantially responsible was to put the responsibility on Michael.


and as far as I know AEG did say that they'll remove Katherine from the responsibility on the verdict form. Such things are a tactic to scare each other. Jacksons want to equal AEG to Murray and AEG respond with putting Jacksons on the form and so on.

 

[bouee]

Gongaware will be on the stand today, so :

Paul Gongaware Testimony from Murray's trial

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...ct-announced?p=3495236&viewfull=1#post3495236

- Gongaware is the co-CEO of AEG. AEG was the producer and promoter of TII.

- Gongaware states that he was also involved with Michael’s Dangerous and History tours.

- They contracted 31 shows because Michael wanted to do 10 more shows than Prince.

- They put 10 show tickets on sale just to engage how strong the sales are going to be. It was sold out instantly. Then they put the rest of the shows on sale and increased the concert number to 50.

- Michael said that he would do 50 shows.

- All 50 shows were sold out and even after that there were 250,000 people still in que for tickets. They could have sold out another 50 shows.


- DA Brazil asks Paul Gongaware to go over Michael’s performance schedule for the upcoming weeks. July 5 rehearsals / 8 shows, August 10 shows / no rehearsal, September 9 shows/no rehearsal, October / November/ December no show / no rehearsal, January 3 rehearsals/10 shows, February 10 shows/no rehearsals, March 3 shows/no rehearsals.\

- DA Brazil asks Gongaware about a production meeting at Carolwood house. Gongaware says Michael came a little late because he was at Dr. Klein. He seemed little off and little slow than usual. His speech was slurred. Yet he participated to the meeting.


- Gongaware said that in May Michael told him to hire a personal physician, Dr. Murray, in May. Gongaware called Murray. Murray told him that he had 4 practices that he needed to close and lay off people and asked $5 Million a year to do it. Gongaware told him it would never happen and ended the negotiations. Gongaware believed they could get a more reasonable priced doctor in London. Michael said they needed to look after "the machine" (his body) and wanted Murray.

- Gongaware received a call from Michael Amir Williams who said that Michael wanted him to hire Dr. Murray. Gongaware heard on the background Michael saying “offer him 150”. He called Dr. Murray again and said that he was authorized to offer him $150,000 a month. Murray accepted.


- Gongaware asked Murray how will this work as he wasn’t licensed in UK. Murray told him not to worry and he’ll take care of the license. Employment contract was being drafted.

- Another early June meeting in Carolwood with Ortega, Dileo, Phillips, Gongaware, Murray and Michael. The meeting happened because Kenny Ortega believed that Michael wasn’t at the stage he needed to be and they might not be ready for the show.


- Gongaware said that the tone in the meeting was great and that Michael wasn’t defensive on the contrary he was engaged. They discussed what they can do to give Michael everything he needs to get to where he needs to be such as health and eating habits.

Murray Trial Day 2 - September 28 , 2011

Morning Session

Resuming with Paul Gongaware (PG) on the stand. Ms. Brazil is continuing cross examination.

The recapped schedule for tours. From Jul to Sept there were 27 shows then a break from Oct-Dec. Then there were 23 shows between Jan-Mar. (8 shows in July, 10 in August, 9 in Sept, 10 in Jan, 10 in Feb., and 3 in Mar.)

After the tour ended in March there were plans to add additional shows but PG stressed these were only plans.

Early June there was a meeting to discuss MJ's health and stamina attended by MJ, CM, PG, Frank Dileo, Randy Phillips. It was a positive meeting. PG was also aware of the June 20 meeting but did not attend.

PG saw CM at rehearsals at Forum rehearsal after the early June meeting. PG did not see Murray at other meetings.

PG saw MJ rehearse on June 24th and 25th and thought MJ was strong, excited, full of energy, and engaged.

Defense cross examination

Defense go over PG's history with MJ. PG says he was tour manager of Dangerous and did not see MJ very much. In History tour for the first leg he worked with the promoter and in the second leg he was tour executive. PG talked and interacted with MJ in the second half of History. PG worked on TII from the start.

Defense brings back the day Michael came from Dr. Klein. PG says he saw a slower speech pattern and a little slur in his speech. PG says he was on the look out for any drug usage by Michael.

PG says his relationship with Michael was business relationship but friendly. If PG needed to get in touch with MJ, he would see him at rehearsals if MJ was there. Or, if needed, he would go through Michael Amir.

Meeting in early June was pushed by Kenny Ortega who was concerned that MJ was missing rehearsals.
PG did not know how many practices CM had, the value of his practices, or what kind of doctor CM was.
When he turned down $5 mil, Cm did not try to negotiate another price. That was the end oof their correspondence until MJ prompted PG to contact Murray and offer CM $150,000/mo.


PG did not know Murray was a cardiologist. He did not read the final contract and did not know how long Murray was to receive $150,000. He did not see the completed contract between Murray and AEG. PG was not involved and did not know about the contract between AEG and Murray.

Defense tried to bring up lawsuit against PG and AEG that is by Katherine and he was shot down.

Brazil recross

PG did not know Conrad Murray (CM) gave MJ nightly doses of propofol. CM did not seem surprised that PG was contacting him about his services. He didn't have to explain in depth why he was calling.

PG says a personal doctor for tour is normal but the $5 million was high in his opinion.

Defense recross

PG made a phone call to another doctor to get an idea about acceptable payment.

MJ said "they needed to take care of the machine." There were no further conversations about any medical needs of MJ.

 

[Bubs]

and Paul Gongaware Declaration

Gongaware saying when they produce a tour they would advance the costs on artists behalf and the artist is responsible for it and pays it back from his/her share. (He makes it sound like the TII deal was a standard deal that they do). He says this gave Michael significant control over the tour staff and he choose those people himself.

Gongaware saying he tried to convince Michael to get a UK physician but he wanted Murray adamantly. Gongaware says he told this request to Phillips and he tried to change Michael's mind as well. So Gongaware says he ultimately agreed to facilitate the contract with Murray at Michael's request. He called Murray late April - early May and Murray asked for $5 Million. Gongaware calls this demand unreasonable and tells it to Michael. Michael counter offers $150,000 a month and Murray agrees.

Gongaware then delegates the contract issue to Woolley who got Katie Jorrie to help. Gongaware says he didn't see the drafts and had no involvement in the contract phase.

Gongaware gets one email on June 14 but the information about the email is redacted.

Gongaware says he met with Murray once (seems to be June meeting) to discuss Michael's nutrition and stamina. Gongaware says Murray told him Michael is in good health and he didn't need anything from AEG. Gongaware states that he didn't supervise Murray's treatment.

Gongaware says Michael asked him to change the tour schedule in April or May and they did so to put more days between performances. Gongaware says Michael did not make any more requests to him and Michael did not ask the tour to be postponed or cancelled.

Gongaware says he never tried to prevent Michael from seeing any doctor, he never told Michael or his doctors what medicine he should or should not take. Gongaware says he never required Michael to take propofol and he didn't have any idea Michael was taking Propofol until he read it reported in the media after Michael's death. Gongaware says he didn't know what Propofol is.

Gongaware says he didn't provide medicine or equipment to Murray. He says Murray only mentioned he might need some medical equipment in London in their first May 2009 phone call but he never told what specific equipment he might need to Gongaware and never asked Gongaware for any equipment.

Gongaware repeats he asked Murray in June 2009 if he needed anything from AEG and he said he did not need anything.

Gongaware says Murray assured him Michael's was in excellent health and Gongaware personally did not see anything to suggest otherwise.

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...Jackson-vs-AEG-Live-Full-Case-History-Summary

 

[Big Apple2]

Thanks bouee and bubs.

After reading both of your postings, I'm not sure how much Mr. Gongaware will be helping Mother's case.

In my opinion, after Murray made his initial request for $5 Million, I think Mr. Gongaware was done, finito, and wanted no part of Murray after his initial conversation with him. But like Michael said "he needed him to take care of the machine." AEG could have said this, that, and the other thing, but Michael's mind was made up, i.e. he wanted Conrad Murray to be his doctor, no questions asked.

 

[serendipity]

so it seems they will be asking him about Elvis according the the family's mouth piece Alan Duke. :ermm:

 

[Annita]

Karen Faye is not able to shut her mouth, even not between ending her own testomony.

She is truly my friend. She supports me 100% telling the truth, even when I told the truth on the stand about her. I was never given the opportunity to tell her side. She is my hero. RT @FCriistinaSilva: @wingheart Tell me you love LMP ..

Karen Faye ?@wingheart 26 Mai We did share RT @FCriistinaSilva: @wingheart Thank you so much!You should get a chance to tell her that. https://twitter.com/wingheart/status/338728056590049281/photo/1

 

[Big Apple2]

so it seems they will be asking him about Elvis according the the family's mouth piece Alan Duke.

Yeah, because Elvis died from a Propofol overdose in his bedroom.

No offense, but Mother's side is scraping the bottom of the barrel. 4 weeks in and still no substantive EVIDENCE to uphold their claims.

On a side note: it will be interesting to see how Mr. Duke handles his "reporting" (and I use the word loosely) when Mr. Putnam presents his case.

 

[bouee]

Karen Faye is not able to shut her mouth, even not between ending her own testomony.

She is truly my friend. She supports me 100% telling the truth, even when I told the truth on the stand about her. I was never given the opportunity to tell her side. She is my hero. RT @FCriistinaSilva: @wingheart Tell me you love LMP ..

Karen Faye ?@wingheart 26 Mai We did share RT @FCriistinaSilva: @wingheart Thank you so much!You should get a chance to tell her that. https://twitter.com/wingheart/status/338728056590049281/photo/1

A little bit of OT : if Lisa Marie testifies, do you think Putnam will ask her about Karen ?

 

[ivy]

A little bit of OT : if Lisa Marie testifies, do you think Putnam will ask her about Karen ?

of course. not only they would try to impeach Karen, probably they will also try to show Karen's animosity & issues with other people to portray her as a biased witness.

 

[bouee]

of course. not only they would try to impeach Karen, probably they will also try to show Karen's animosity & issues with other people to portray her as a biased witness.

Lol ! Karen speaks for helrself, I hope they won't sink that low...

 

[bouee]

Well there's a reason for that

Jacksons want a verdict form that puts "Murray & AEG" on the same line and argue as AEG is Murray's employee they share the same responsibility in Michael's death. If the verdict form is finalized this way you can understand why AEG cannot or will not be willing to accept Murray's responsibility and focus on Michael.

so I hope you understand that in a lawsuit where Jacksons say "AEG is totally and directly responsible for Murray's action because Murray is AEG's employee", AEG cannot say "Murray is a substantial factor". If they do and if the jury agrees with Jacksons that AEG hired Murray, AEG would be in trouble

It's the same reason why Murray blamed Michael during criminal trial. The only way Murray could say that he wasn't substantially responsible was to put the responsibility in Michael.


and as far as I know AEG did say that they'll remove Katherine from the responsibility on the verdict form. Such things are a tactic to scare each other. Jacksons want to equal AEG to Murray and AEG respond with putting Jacksons on the form and so on.

Thanks, I get the reasoning , but I don't get why AEG should have to do that.

They use the defense they want to use.

If they want to say : 1) we did not hire Murray, it was Michael's request and how can we supervise a doctor when we are not doctors ourselves , 2) we did what Murray told us to do, we thought we were helping AND / OR 3) we didn't do anything, didn't notice anything. I don't see what the problem would be.

It actually sounds more realistic to me than ignoring Murray, and putting the blame 100 % on the victim. I'm not sure a jury would buy that.

Generally speaking, I think that too much strategy is not good, it will always show.

 

[Diplomate]

Can't believe it, Janet Jackson, the woman who tried to kidnapp KJ last summer and who fighted with Paris, just arrived with KJ and the other kidnapper Rebbie in court....

I wonder how feels the MJ kids about that

 

[ivy]

Corina Knoll ?@corinaknoll 1m
Gongaware is an AEG exec and a defendant in the civil suit
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Corina Knoll ?@corinaknoll 5m
Paul Gongaware expected to testify today in MJ civil trial.
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Corina Knoll ?@corinaknoll 20m
Janet Jackson hugged her mother Katherine in the hallway to the excitement of waiting fans.
Expand
Corina Knoll ?@corinaknoll 22m
Janet Jackson, her mother Katherine and sister Rebbie just entered the courtroom.
Expand
Corina Knoll ?@corinaknoll 35m
"MJ eyewitness fans - testify for MJ!" -- banner flown by plane over downtown L.A. this morning.

 

[jamba]

Could have AEG anticipated : not propofol precisely. I'm saying that on 19th/20th Phillips at least had enough info to suspect Murray was incompetent & lying.

Here is what Phillips knew :
- Michael was too thin, kept losing weight- he had been deteriorating for some time, Mr Houghdal says 8 weeks and gives a precise example (360° spin) .
- On the 19th Michael had chills, was unable to perform, getting paranoid, rambling.
- Phillips got at least 3 different e mails from the production people that night, not counting Karen's. It shows people were shocked and worried, all of them.
- The question of substance abuse is there , even Phillips himself wonders about that.
- How come Michael's health is deteriorating in spite of a full time 150 000 $ / month Dr ?
- Mr Houghdal says 8 weeks, Murray had been there for about that same amount of time.
- Murray was the only person who said Michael was "physically equipped to perform". Not one single dancer believed that, at best they thought he was too thin and needed to put on weight. I would think a professional dancer is credible about that.

How can you believe he is "physically equipped" when you read about the 360° spins, that he keeps losing weight ? how can you not wonder when Murray is the ONLY ONE who says that, while Michael keeps getting worse ? How can you still trust the doctor when Michael had been gradually getting worse while Murray was supposedly taking care of him ?

In one word how can you NOT doubt Murray at that point ?

Then we have Murray's attitude : we know that AEG asked him to come to rehearsals (Gongaware's email about why was Murray not there on 19th) , but he didn't come. We know Kenny tried to call him on 19th. But the day after at the meeting, Murray, who apparently hasn't seen Michael at reheasrsals , still scolds Kenny ?? !!!
Well HE was the doctor, HE was supposed to be there, Kenny was NOT supposed to massage Michael's feet, feed him, etc.. Kenny had to make a decision on his own, without the doctor's help, and this is how Murray deals with it ? How come the doctor is so defensive ?

By the way, this reminded me that Murray got suspended from a Las Vegas hospital for failing to answer on time when he was on call.

The equation is simple :
Innefficient+ defensive = there is something wrong. Murray is a doctor, the situation could be dangerous.

After the meeting, Phillips attitude si weird. He's obviously lying when he writes to Ortega "we check everyone". He just wants to shut people who voice their concerns up. "Kenny's hysteria". He goes along with Murray 300%, against Kenny. That's where the biggest mistake is. If there had been further health problems, Phillips would have wanted to know. Remember it was on 20th, at that point in time, Phillips could not know Michael would appear to be better on 23rd.

That's where , IMO , AEG, or at least Phillips, hiring Murray were negligent and failed to supervise him.

That's also why AEG's propofol defense ("we couldn't know it was propofol") is bothering me as much as Jacksons' demerol "obsession". It's not the point , we know they could not have guessed propfol.




AEG had 2 ways to deal with this, that I can think of :

1- pull the plug on Murray- refuse to pay for him , let Michael deal with him through a cash advance. AEG is no longer part of it, can not be sued, but Michael's problem is not solved, so AEG's problem is not solved.

2-impose other healthcare professionals, to try and really help Michael get better, keep an eye on Murray, check what the "dr is doing". Translated into diplomatic language : "help" Murray with other healthcare professionals. Letting Murray know, tactfully, "we're wondering about you".

I would have chosen solution number 2

The post that you quoted (911 thing) is just an example to say that if AEG had imposed a healthcare professional, they were not really at risk, it was understandable given the symptoms Michael was showing + dr's inefficiency.

3- Then would have been a right time to think about background checks- Murray's contract was still not definite.






that e mail shows an attitude towards Murray. I agree it's possible Gongaware meant well , and just wanted Michael to get better, we need to know how those meetings went.

If Gongaware is threatening to fire, if he has that power, then Gongaware is saying that AEG hired Murray, and he is saying that they tried to influence the doctor, even pressure him.

The thing is that this e mail+ asking him to come to reharsals+ having meetings with him + calling him on the phone : all put together show that Murray was considered as an "employee" he was part of the tour, as much as Kenny for example. This goes to prove hiring + unhealthy relationship because Murray was Michael's personnal doctor, so a possible conflict of interest.

EDIT : what I think can be confusing about what I'm saying, is that I don't think you need to prove an intention to be liable.
I don't believe AEG meant to harm Michael in any way. I believe they got caught up in a situation and did not deal with it perfectly, and some things can be understandable.

So far the only person I would be angry with, apart from Murray, is Phillips. I have to say, don't count on me to marry him, I'm beginning to dislike him very very very much.

Now AEG contributed to create that situation, they had a role, even if they did not mean it to on a personnal level. That's why I think they have their share of responsability.

Thanks for clarifying to some extent your position, Bouee. I still don't get how if MJ was adamant to have CM, that AEG could have brought in another health professional to supervise CM and get CM and MJ to agree. Obviously, they would not as they did not want anyone to know what was happening re propool. Once that cat was out of the bag, major actions would have been taken, probaly leading to the tour being cancelled or postponed, which no one wanted, including MJ, although in retrospect it would have been the best option long term for MJ's health and recuperation.

So, I want to make a point about the THIN, losing weight stuff. You put a lot of emphasis on this as far as signs of MJ's deterioration, but in the autopsy MJ was NOT TOO THIN. He was within the normal range, according to the autopsy. Yes, he did look thin, too thin, I agree. But the autopsy said his weight was 137 and within the normal range and his body mass index was 20, which is not too thin. I was recently reading about a Brazilian model who died in 07 from anorexia and her BMI was 13 when she died. The WHO rates a BMI of 16 as "extreme thinness." But MJ had a BMI of 20, so it was not too thin. Have you ever seen ballet dancers? They are thin but they have enormous stamina. MJ did NOT DIE FROM BEING TOO THIN!

Next point re was CM a 'tour doctor' was he 'part of the tour" --I would say yes, he was. How could he not be part of the tour--he was supposedly going on tour (the plan anyway, assuming he got the licenses)--but he was going at MJ's request and as an AEG independent contractor. I guess I don't see a big problem with them calling him when MJ was ill on the 19th or having a meeting to discuss the situation that Ortega saw on the 19th and including CM in the discussion.

I agree Phillips' email re how impressive CM is, etc, was really undermining Kenny's observations--first hand observations of MJ's health, and that was a decision that may have been a turning point. But as you say, it depends what went on in the meeting, which we don't know about and maybe never will. Also RP was remote from the direct contact that others had (Ortega, etc) and maybe it was easier for CM to convince him all was well?

 

[ivy]

Corina Knoll @corinaknoll
AEG attorneys object to Janet Jackson and Rebbie in the courtroom, say agreement was Katherine could have just 1 supporter

 

[bouee]

Corina Knoll @corinaknoll
AEG attorneys object to Janet Jackson and Rebbie in the courtroom, say agreement was Katherine could have just 1 supporter

Are these attorneys suggesting that Janet should kidnap Rebbie ? (or vice versa)

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Well there's a reason for that

Jacksons want a verdict form that puts "Murray & AEG" on the same line and argue as AEG is Murray's employee they share the same responsibility in Michael's death. If the verdict form is finalized this way you can understand why AEG cannot or will not be willing to accept Murray's responsibility and focus on Michael.

so I hope you understand that in a lawsuit where Jacksons say "AEG is totally and directly responsible for Murray's action because Murray is AEG's employee", AEG cannot say "Murray is a substantial factor". If they do and if the jury agrees with Jacksons that AEG hired Murray, AEG would be in trouble

I've posted this before, on the jackson's verdict form, the 'murray and aeg' line is only on the allocation of blame section of the form. Jurors only get to this section if they've already agreed that aeg neligently hired and supervised murray, hence murray/aeg being together on the same line. And aeg are not just saying murray wasn't a substantial factor - on the verdict form and in their opening statements, they claim murray wasn't any type of factor, it was all mj, murray isn't even mentioned on the verdict form. That's the defence that was used in the criminal trial - i agree with tygger, it's not plausible and does suggest that the case that aeg hired and supervised murray isn't as baseless as aeg like to portray.

At first I thought the logic behind's AEG strategy , was to just not talk about Murray, because if you say he lied to you, you are admitting that you failed at supervising him.

After those latest e mails (particualry Houghdahl's), and when you put the e mails together, i'm thinking "he lied to us" wouldn't fly, because it became obvious something was wrong with Murray.

So they will put the blame 100% on Michael, at the same time it will help reduce the potential damage- saying Michael was knowingly doing dangereous stuff, Michael was ignoring the risks and ignoring the problems he had in June 09 to keep taking propofol, Michael will be the one who lied to Murray (when it was the other way round) , etc.. brace yourself, I expect it to be much worse than what the Jacksons are saying. I hope I'm wrong.

They're going after the Jacksons to show that the Jacksons themselves did what they accuse AEG of : put Michael on stage no matter what. It's a way to say , "you also contributed to the situation, you deserve nothing" , AEG is trying to reduce the potential damage with this , I think.

I agree with you, aeg are going to be putting the blame 100% on mj, murray is merely a puppet of mj's, murray's negligence will be completely ignored. Why else bring in testimony of docs who mj deceived and lied to - murray will be seen as much a victim of mj as aeg. MJ's propofol use will be heavily documented - how doc after doc told mj it was dangerous to use outside a hospital, and that such use = death. Mj's death on 25 june will be an 'inevitable accident', that could have happened at any time and mj should have known his treatment cd result in death.

I do disagree that aeg are going after the jacksons - from their opening statements, the family are portrayed as just as much victims of mj's secrecy as aeg. They tried to help with drug interventions but were unsuccessful, mj erected a wall and convinced them at times that he was doing better, presumably the times they were asking mj for concert reunions. Aeg are just going to point out that mj fooled them as well.

 

[bouee]

Thanks for clarifying to some extent your position, Bouee. I still don't get how if MJ was adamant to have CM, that AEG could have brought in another health professional to supervise CM and get CM and MJ to agree. Obviously, they would not as they did not want anyone to know what was happening re propool. Once that cat was out of the bag, major actions would have been taken, probaly leading to the tour being cancelled or postponed, which no one wanted, including MJ, although in retrospect it would have been the best option long term for MJ's health and recuperation.

Thank YOU too.

I believe in being honest and telling the truth, especially in this kind of situation : so I would have told Michael the truth : we are worried for you, we don't understand why these things are happening while you are with a doctor, we want to be on the safe side, etc.. The point would not be for him to agree, it would be for him to understand, it's actually VERY important. You wouldn't be asking for his approval, just explaining so he feels considered and respected.

I hope they did explain the tough love thing, that would be an example. If they didn't , just imagine the difference : Michael was already super tired from his "treatment" , add to that he would have been lost from seeing the people around him "change" without him understanding why.

So, I want to make a point about the THIN, losing weight stuff. You put a lot of emphasis on this as far as signs of MJ's deterioration, but in the autopsy MJ was NOT TOO THIN. He was within the normal range, according to the autopsy. Yes, he did look thin, too thin, I agree. But the autopsy said his weight was 137 and within the normal range and his body mass index was 20, which is not too thin. I was recently reading about a Brazilian model who died in 07 from anorexia and her BMI was 13 when she died. The WHO rates a BMI of 16 as "extreme thinness." But MJ had a BMI of 20, so it was not too thin. Have you ever seen ballet dancers? They are thin but they have enormous stamina. MJ did NOT DIE FROM BEING TOO THIN!

Very true.

My point was , by all accounts, dancers' accounts, we know MJ was thin, which would have been OK if he didn't have to put on a show. Dancers thought he had to put on weight, for the shows. Instead of that, it is now confirmed he was losing weight. So that's what strange : he was supposed to put on weight, and got thinner instead.

That's true he didn't die of being thin, but I don't like this defense statements either. It makes me feel like answering in the same cold and stupid manner : Mj didn't die of being thin, he died of getting THINNER right before your eyes, at the hands of an asshole of a "doctor" .

Next point re was CM a 'tour doctor' was he 'part of the tour" --I would say yes, he was. How could he not be part of the tour--he was supposedly going on tour (the plan anyway, assuming he got the licenses)--but he was going at MJ's request and as an AEG independent contractor. I guess I don't see a big problem with them calling him when MJ was ill on the 19th or having a meeting to discuss the situation that Ortega saw on the 19th and including CM in the discussion.

it all depends on how it went. No asking doesn't matter, I agree that it was Murray's reposability to stop answering questions when /if it became personnal.

If it meant pressuring Murray, then that's not OK.

I think it's a thin line, so if you want to be on the safe side, you don't talk too much to the doctor, so you can not be accused of anything later.

On a personnal point of view, I think it is disrespectful to Michael to talk to his doctor. AEG should have talked to HIM about his health. I can't imagine visiting a sick friend, at the hospital, and going straight to the doctor. I would ask the friend about his/her health, it would be an invasion of privacy. I don't even do it with family members, unless they ask me to, or if the person is no longer able to talk.
I must say I have worked in hopsitals, so it's probably easier for me, I know that if there is something I should know as a family member, the doctor or the staff will contact me, so I don't feel the need to rush to a doctor.

I agree Phillips' email re how impressive CM is, etc, was really undermining Kenny's observations--first hand observations of MJ's health, and that was a decision that may have been a turning point. But as you say, it depends what went on in the meeting, which we don't know about and maybe never will. Also RP was remote from the direct contact that others had (Ortega, etc) and maybe it was easier for CM to convince him all was well?

Yeah, I'll wait until we hear more. But I have a truly bad feeling about him.

Which leads me to my next question :

Could Phillips be found liable , and not AEG ? How does that work, since there are several defendants ? The jury will have to evaluate each defendant's liability ?
Thanks

 

[elapentela]

Thanks for clarifying to some extent your position, Bouee. I still don't get how if MJ was adamant to have CM, that AEG could have brought in another health professional to supervise CM and get CM and MJ to agree. Obviously, they would not as they did not want anyone to know what was happening re propool. Once that cat was out of the bag, major actions would have been taken, probaly leading to the tour being cancelled or postponed, which no one wanted, including MJ, although in retrospect it would have been the best option long term for MJ's health and recuperation.

So, I want to make a point about the THIN, losing weight stuff. You put a lot of emphasis on this as far as signs of MJ's deterioration, but in the autopsy MJ was NOT TOO THIN. He was within the normal range, according to the autopsy. Yes, he did look thin, too thin, I agree. But the autopsy said his weight was 137 and within the normal range and his body mass index was 20, which is not too thin. I was recently reading about a Brazilian model who died in 07 from anorexia and her BMI was 13 when she died. The WHO rates a BMI of 16 as "extreme thinness." But MJ had a BMI of 20, so it was not too thin. Have you ever seen ballet dancers? They are thin but they have enormous stamina. MJ did NOT DIE FROM BEING TOO THIN!

Next point re was CM a 'tour doctor' was he 'part of the tour" --I would say yes, he was. How could he not be part of the tour--he was supposedly going on tour (the plan anyway, assuming he got the licenses)--but he was going at MJ's request and as an AEG independent contractor. I guess I don't see a big problem with them calling him when MJ was ill on the 19th or having a meeting to discuss the situation that Ortega saw on the 19th and including CM in the discussion.

I agree Phillips' email re how impressive CM is, etc, was really undermining Kenny's observations--first hand observations of MJ's health, and that was a decision that may have been a turning point. But as you say, it depends what went on in the meeting, which we don't know about and maybe never will. Also RP was remote from the direct contact that others had (Ortega, etc) and maybe it was easier for CM to convince him all was well?

I absolutely agree with your post regarding why MJ and KM would never allow any other professional to be involved in the daily care. Michael choose him as his personal doctor and he had the right to do it. Only insurance companies are being able to put a restriction on personal doctor choices which is not the case here. The only other person who would be able to be part of the medical team ( and would be if Muray would like to share his salary) was Adams. If Adams would attended Michael together with Murray the tragedy probably would not happened. I personally don't believe there was any other choice for Michael than using Propofol (but of course using it with the right monitoring). Remember he was using it before (after probably trying everything else). It was only one way to "knock him out". And he needed to be "knock out" to get some rest. Many people and doctors are using often an extremely strange (and also very dangerous) treatments for different illnesses but media useally don't report on them until something happened. And even if the very experimental drugs and treatments will find their way to the media only people who are interested in the subject will pay an attention.
Michael probably would not have to use Propofol so often after the shows would started because the schedule was adjusted very well for his needs. If he would have to cancer TII I don't think he would be able to ever recover from the professional and psychological damage. Remember you can not treat that kind of artist as the person next door. Most of his problems were psychological ones but it made him being Michael Jackson. I don't think there was any way to stop his head from "spinning" before the the first show. And it doesn't matter if it was one show ( with brothers and Janet as the opening) or 50 shows on his own. He just wanted be The Best. And I'm absolutely positive any collaboration with his biological family would bring him at least 5 times more stress than working with TII team. Anybody who remember the Victory tour would know it. I was able to witness some private situations behind the scene during Victory Tour and the way the Jacksons treated Michael was beyond comprehension for me. He was the star who brought the crowds to the stadiums and he had no voice. He was outvoted in almost every issue. He almost cryed several times but he just left the rooms because he doesn't do it in public. But everybody who witnessed the scene could tell you the same. So he stopped to attend any family meetings during the tour and made DiLeo to handle his affairs in person,still following Michaels directions.

Regarding Michael loosing weiths. It always happened during touring. After Victory tour he was really sick for awhile. The same happened with Bad tour. And he was a lot younger.
In USA ( and probably everywhere in the world) everybody who is not a doctor is impress with the doctor status. Especialy a cardiologist with private practice and the licence in the four states. To achieve this title Murray had to study for a long time, to get hundreds thousand of dollars and work really hard to be able to establish private practice and get patients to treat them. You can not imagine how many doctors are trying to get residency so they can practice medicine. Especially people with different accents and of course color people will always have it harder on the doctor levels. In USA in many places in medicine field blacks are very welcome as for example nurse assistants but for the black nurses and doctors some doors are close. I know some facilities (hospitals and nursing homes) where they are hiring blacks only as CNAs but never as the nurses or doctors. And you will see the anti- discrimination manifestos on every news board. So for Philips acknowledging Murray's achievements as a doctor was exactly the same feeling as Michael Jackson had about him.

 

[gerryevans]

If Adams would attended Michael together with Murray the tragedy probably would not happened. I personally don't believe there was any other choice for Michael than using Propofol (but of course using it with the right monitoring). Remember he was using it before (after probably trying everything else). It was only one way to "knock him out". And he needed to be "knock out" to get some rest. Many people and doctors are using often an extremely strange (and also very dangerous) treatments for different illnesses but media useally don't report on them until something happened. And even if the very experimental drugs and treatments will find their way to the media only people who are interested in the subject will pay an attention.
Michael probably would not have to use Propofol so often after the shows would started because the schedule was adjusted very well for his needs.

It looks like whatever benefits propofol had with MJ, began to cancel themselves out with the overuse. CM was giving MJ a propofol drug cocktail for six weeks, almost daily. It clearly was beginning to affect him. Along with the weight loss, he began talking gibberish. He was mentally and physically declining before Murray's eyes, but he kept pumping him with his concoction.

MJ might have survived June 25th if proper monitoring had been done, but the only way he would have survived the whole tour is if another doctor took over completely, because Murray not only did not want to share the cash, but arrogantly liked having MJ under his exclusive control as his physician. He needed to be completely kicked to the curb.

 

[jamba]

I recently had contact with a friend whose health is going downhill but who insists on doing things that will IMO harm her health. I am not saying that was the case with MJ exactly b/c I think he was coping the best way he knew how and had way more stresses on him than anyone else could ever imagine, but with this friend I see how hard it is to persuade anyone whose mind is set. She rejects advice but wants to share her problems. She is using a walker at all times b/c she is so weak. I tried to find out what is going on and she told me she is following an aryuvedic doc's ideas that she can't eat uncooked veggies (and maybe fruit too). However, when you cook veggies, they lose vitamins. Also, her diet is no wheat and vegetarian. She also doesn't drink enough water--no good to drink with meals according to aryuveda. Well, I just see her adamantly following a path that will probably end her up in a hospital. And I have decided to tell her what I think in a letter so she can't cut me off and then just let her think it over.

I agree, Bouee, that AEG should have spoken honestly to MJ, and I agree with your statement that honest, open communuication is key. Yet MJ and Murray were not being honest and open. MJ needed to say look, I have insomnia so bad and so I am having CM give me propofol every night. But AEG would have freaked, Murray would have (I hope) been kicked to the curb, and maybe the tour cancelled, and MJ on the hook for the $30 million. MJ felt he could not be that honest. So if AEG had asked him why he wasn't doing well, esp. on the 19th, he wouldn't have revealed the propofol to them.

Regarding the weight issue, what I meant to say is that his weight was not so low as to be a huge flashing "danger" warning. Yes, they were concerned, but since he performed well the next 2 nights (24 and 25) the weight was not an issue that seemed insurmountable if they could get MJ back on track. He was often as thin as 120 pounds--that was on his driver's license when he was in his 20's.

Elapentela, wow--that is so sad about the Victory tour. I just watched on YT the last concert where he anounced no more touring with his brothers. He never did either. It was a turning point. Thanks for your input.

 

[marebear]

So Janet shows up today.

 

[Ashtanga]

This trial is taking forever to get to the end. *big sigh*

Karen Faye is not able to shut her mouth, even not between ending her own testomony.

She is truly my friend. She supports me 100% telling the truth, even when I told the truth on the stand about her. I was never given the opportunity to tell her side. She is my hero. RT @FCriistinaSilva: @wingheart Tell me you love LMP ..

Karen Faye ?@wingheart 26 Mai We did share RT @FCriistinaSilva: @wingheart Thank you so much!You should get a chance to tell her that. https://twitter.com/wingheart/status/338728056590049281/photo/1

Karen and Lisa > uke: I hope Lisa does not go testify. ray: She will say a lot of bullshit. :doh:

 

[Petrarose]

Can't believe it, Janet Jackson, the woman who tried to kidnapp KJ last summer and who fighted with Paris, just arrived with KJ and the other kidnapper Rebbie in court....

I wonder how feels the MJ kids about that

Dip Funny^^. I missed you so good to have you back. Grandma in court with her kidnappers, that is why you do not get involved in family drama. They make up & everything is OK.

According to Ganga: Gongaware denied that the email was a reference to calling off Jackson’s "This Is It" concerts in London but instead was pointed at "pulling the plug on Karen Faye," the singer's hairstylist, makeup artist and longtime friend who had expressed fears about Jackson's poor health.


Does anyone think Gongaware is telling the truth about pulling the plug was meant for Karen? Anyway finally the case is heating up, because Gongaware is a hostile witness. He seems to be holding his own very well on the stand. I want to see if Panish will be able to rattle him or get some information from him that will help the Jackson side.

Why can't the judge stick to her orders. First she says one person can stay to support Katherine, and then she allows 3 in. Then, after AEG protested it seems Rebbie left? Is the family using their presence to influence the jury in this case?

Elapentela you are so right about Michael's treatment by his brothers. A good example is I think that rehearsal for the Motown 25 where Michael made some comment & one of the brothers shot back a comment to him & Michael backed down.

 

[8701girl]

Is the family using their presence to influence the jury in this case

More like influening katherine

 

[8701girl]

Karen Faye is not able to shut her mouth, even not between ending her own testomony.

She is truly my friend. She supports me 100% telling the truth, even when I told the truth on the stand about her. I was never given the opportunity to tell her side. She is my hero. RT @FCriistinaSilva: @wingheart Tell me you love LMP ..

Karen Faye ?@wingheart 26 Mai We did share RT @FCriistinaSilva: @wingheart Thank you so much!You should get a chance to tell her that. https://twitter.com/wingheart/status/338728056590049281/photo/1

Is that a recent picture of karen & lmp?

 

[Soundmind]

It looks like whatever benefits propofol had with MJ, began to cancel themselves out with the overuse. CM was giving MJ a propofol drug cocktail for six weeks, almost daily. It clearly was beginning to affect him. Along with the weight loss, he began talking gibberish. He was mentally and physically declining before Murray's eyes, but he kept pumping him with his concoction.

MJ might have survived June 25th if proper monitoring had been done, but the only way he would have survived the whole tour is if another doctor took over completely, because Murray not only did not want to share the cash, but arrogantly liked having MJ under his exclusive control as his physician. He needed to be completely kicked to the curb.

What MJ was suffering has nothing to do with propofol. take 10 mg of lorazepam , tell us how do you feel or what the people around you feel.