Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Ashtanga]

Is that a recent picture of karen & lmp?

The posting date is May 26, 2013 > https://twitter.com/wingheart/status/338728056590049281

 

[Petrarose]

What MJ was suffering has nothing to do with propofol. take 10 mg of lorazepam , tell us how do you feel or what the people around you feel.

Soundmind/B] do you remember how much urine was found in Michael's room during the investigation?

 

[AliCat]

AEG Live's Paul Gongaware Testifies About Negotiating Deal for Michael Jackson’s Doctor
NEWS
By Associated Press | May 28, 2013 8:41 PM EDT

LOS ANGELES — A top executive of the company that was producing Michael Jackson’s “This Is It” tour has acknowledged he negotiated a deal for the doctor that the pop star had chosen to accompany him.

But AEG Live executive Paul Gongaware testified Tuesday he never investigated Dr. Conrad Murray’s background and merely accepted Jackson’s recommendation.

Gongaware testified in the Los Angeles trial as a hostile witness called by lawyers for Jackson’s mother in her negligent-hiring lawsuit.

He came under aggressive examination on whether AEG or Jackson was responsible for hiring Murray, who was ultimately convicted of involuntary manslaughter in the superstar’s death.

Gongaware said the fact that Murray had been Jackson’s personal physician for three years was good enough for him.

Jackson died in 2009 after being given a powerful anesthetic.
http://www.billboard.com/biz/articl...-testifies-about-negotiating-deal-for-michael

What Paul Gongaware testified is exactly why things went well for Dr. Conrad Murray continuing as Michael Jackson's Personal Physician. Both Paul Gongaware and Randy Phillips trusted Michael Jackson in his own selection of Dr. Conrad Murray as his personal physician. Paul Gongaware and Randy Phillips had worked with Michael Jackson a couple of decades. Dr. Conrad Murray had worked with Michael Jackson as a doctor and in the treatment of Prince, Paris and Blanket Jackson, when they all lived in Las Vegas. Michael Jackson recommended this doctor and this was good enough for Paul Gongaware. Isn't that how we get hired, through recommendations!

 

[bouee]

I agree, Bouee, that AEG should have spoken honestly to MJ, and I agree with your statement that honest, open communuication is key. Yet MJ and Murray were not being honest and open. MJ needed to say look, I have insomnia so bad and so I am having CM give me propofol every night. But AEG would have freaked, Murray would have (I hope) been kicked to the curb, and maybe the tour cancelled, and MJ on the hook for the $30 million. MJ felt he could not be that honest. So if AEG had asked him why he wasn't doing well, esp. on the 19th, he wouldn't have revealed the propofol to them.

Regarding the weight issue, what I meant to say is that his weight was not so low as to be a huge flashing "danger" warning. Yes, they were concerned, but since he performed well the next 2 nights (24 and 25) the weight was not an issue that seemed insurmountable if they could get MJ back on track. He was often as thin as 120 pounds--that was on his driver's license when he was in his 20's.

I'm sorry for your friend, and I think you did the right thing.

AEG was not exactly in the same position : they had a contract with Murray, were paying him, and talking to him. They had, IMO, reasons to think the Dr was icompetent and lying, they would be just double checking the dr and make sure everything was Ok, without interfering.

About being honest,when MJ was not, : that wouldn't be a problem for me , if I am imposing something, I do it MY way, that would be my responsability. Here, I would be suspecting the Dr of lying, and I wouldn't know whohe is lying to. I would assume Michael could very well not be correctly informed by his Dr, so not able to tell me the truth.
Basically, I'm not sure what Michael knew about what Murray was doing, I mean apart from propofol. I would like to understand the difference between History tour , if he was using propofol back then, and TII.

After what we have seen & heard , it is clear AEG were not respecting Michael, they were more into insulting and tricking him ("freak", twisting figures and colors on a shedule). I wouldn't expect anyone to be honest with anyone in this kind of atmosphere. I don't think they, AEG, would have the guts to talk to Michael honestly. That's how they are "artist orientated". That "artist orientated" comment would have been almost funny if the situation wasn't so sad.

About weight, I can't agree. The fact is , he was losing weight, THAT was the problem, not his weight per se.

I know he seemed better on 23rd and 24th. But on 20th, they (by "they" I mean Phillips), couldn't know he would. Phillips made decisions based on what he saw/was being told until 20th.

According to Ganga: Gongaware denied that the email was a reference to calling off Jackson’s "This Is It" concerts in London but instead was pointed at "pulling the plug on Karen Faye," the singer's hairstylist, makeup artist and longtime friend who had expressed fears about Jackson's poor health.


Does anyone think Gongaware is telling the truth about pulling the plug was meant for Karen? Anyway finally the case is heating up, because Gongaware is a hostile witness. He seems to be holding his own very well on the stand. I want to see if Panish will be able to rattle him or get some information from him that will help the Jackson side.

Why can't the judge stick to her orders. First she says one person can stay to support Katherine, and then she allows 3 in. Then, after AEG protested it seems Rebbie left? Is the family using their presence to influence the jury in this case?
.

I read somewhere that only Janet was allowed in the courtroom.

Yes I think he's telling the truth about this. This was march 09, so at that point they were not thinking about pulling the plug on the shows, if he says it was Karen, I see no reason not to believe him , at least now.
I think what Panish meant is that Karen was already worried in march, and that AEG reacted badly to that, the same way as Phillips talked about "Kenny's hysteria", or the same way Phillips wrote to Ortega, "we chack everyone out, Murray's fantastic" to shut Ortega up.
The problem is Karen is somewhat "hysterical", sent hundreds of e mails, was fired from history tour, said herself that she had issues with people, especially managers, was presented as divisive, ... If she is the only one who reacted that early, it won't fly, and Panish will be working for AEG, in the sense that it would actually help AEG. Jacksons can't rely on Karen if they want to be taken seriously, IMO. They need other people to say the same things, and so far, no one said they were worried in march. In march, at most, they thought he needed to put on weight, and the shows being 4 months away, no one was really worried about that apparently.

'Edit : it aslo shows AEG had the power to fire her. What is imlied, I guess, is that they also had the power to fire Murray.

Kenny's 20th june email mentionned that MJ was threatened with puling the plug, confirmed by Travis, I think . What I think happened, is that AEG threatened Michael in june (meeting or intervention), but never really thought of doing it, which explains the word twisting.

I felt that Gongaware is not doing so well, he does a lot of twisting, that makes him sound dishonest at times : like, why does a meeting take an hour if it is just to check if Murray had everything that he needed (which is a form of supervision, by the way, as well as almost intrusive) , the meeting was "not" about MJ missing rehearsals (really ? ), no need to mention the figure twisting and the change of colors of Michael's schedule, designed to present the schedule in a "good light". Yes, of course.

Soundmind/B] do you remember how much urine was found in Michael's room during the investigation?

I checked the autopsy report :
450 ml , ie half a liter in a jug + 550 grams in his bladder .

 

[Tygger]

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts2m
Email on 3/25/09 from Phillips to Gongaware: "We need to pull the plug now. I will explain."

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts1m
Panish: Mr. Phillips wanted to pull the plug on the show, right sir? Gongaware: I think he was referring to pull the plug on Karen Faye

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts1m
"We never talked about pulling the plug on MJ tour. Not that I recall," Gongaware testified.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts1m
"Kenny wanted the pull because the way she (Faye) handled the situations," Gongaware explained.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts46s
"She tried to control access to MJ and Kenny didn't like that," Gongaware said.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts24s
Panish: Who was Mr. Ortega's contract with, sir? Gongaware: I don't recall

Unfortunately, this conversation did not continue via email. I do NOT believe they are referring to Faye.

Ortega had plenty of access to Michael. He was rubbing his feet and feeding him at one point and no one else was around, including Faye and the doctor.

 

[bouee]

Sorry for quoting myself, does anyone know the answer to my question below ?

Could Phillips be found liable , and not AEG ? How does that work, since there are several defendants ? The jury will have to evaluate each defendant's liability ?
Thanks

-----

Panish: You were involved in terminating one of the nannies who took care of MJ's kids? Gongaware: Yes. Gongaware told nanny Grace Rwamba that her serviced would not be needed anymore because AEG was cutting down on MJ's expenses. (ABC7)

: ??????? why would AEG do that ? Anyone has more info about this ?

----

Gongaware often pleaded poor memory of events. He said he may have met with Jackson as many as 10 times, but could remember only two of the meetings and only one when Murray was present.(AP)

not that good for PG.

 

[Bubs]

ABC7 Court News?@ABC7Courts12h
Katherine Jackson is accompanied by several of her children today: Janet, Rebbie and Randy. Only 1 was allowed to stay, and Janet was chosen

Had Jermaine gone there too, then the whole gang of granny-nappers would've been present :bugeyed
Are they stupid or what? They knew that Katherine is allowed to have only one companion there, and they all went there anyway :doh:

Anybody who remember the Victory tour would know it. I was able to witness some private situations behind the scene during Victory Tour and the way the Jacksons treated Michael was beyond comprehension for me. He was the star who brought the crowds to the stadiums and he had no voice. He was outvoted in almost every issue. He almost cryed several times but he just left the rooms because he doesn't do it in public. But everybody who witnessed the scene could tell you the same. So he stopped to attend any family meetings during the tour and made DiLeo to handle his affairs in person,still following Michaels directions.

I agree with your post and wanted to add that Michael wrote about that he had no voice or his vote against brothers, regarding family concerts in his Moonwalk book and that was the reason he didn't want to go with family. It is understandable of MJ to do so, as he knew how it should be done, whereas brothers always took short cuts and wanted to make lots of money the easiest possible way.

 

[Bubs]

Now that those smoking gun emails gets out as whole, they make more sense. Plaintiffs seems to be picking and asking about the worst parts of the email, and trying to show AEG in bad light, but jury will see the whole picture and the whole email chain, not just what plaintiffs want to them to see.

Thsi is the email chain that we only saw bits of it from smoking gun news, but as whole email, the issue is different.
Email on 2/27/09 from Gongaware to Phillips: We are holding all of the risk, if MJ won't t approve it we go without his approval

Email cont'd: We let Mikey know just what it will cost him in terms of him making money, and the we go with or without him in London.
(they are saying that MJ will not make as much money as he wanted if he doesn't show up in UK)

Email cont'd: We cannot be forced into stopping this, which MJ will try to do...
(by the whole email makes me think that this is about MJ not wanting to do announcement in UK?)

Email cont'd: because he is lazy and constantly changes his mind to fit his immediate wants.

"People were aware at this point there would be a press conference. MJ wouldn't show up at the conference, it'd cost money," Gongaware said

"It wasn't much risk at all, we hadn't spent money," Gongaware said about that point of the tour. This was prior to news conference.

Gongaware said the situation in London, where they constantly referred to MJ as "***** *****", it would impact marketability to sell tickets

"He doesn't want to do this kind of things, but it was important to show MJ to the world if he wanted to do a MJ show," Gongaware explained.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Kenny wanted the pull because the way she (Faye) handled the situations," Gongaware explained.
She tried to control access to MJ and Kenny didn't like that," Gongaware said.

Email on 3/25/09 from Gongaware to Phillips:
It's her (Faye) strong opinion this is dangerous/impractical w/ MJ's health/ability to perform



I'm not surprised by them trying to get rid of KF. I haven't met her nor talked her, but by reading her tweets etc makes her sound like she was trying to be queen in Michael's kingdom, and she was very possessive of MJ.
She clearly overstepped her boundaries, she was just a make-up person.
Also I don't think Kenny meant that KF was trying to deny his access to MJ, but she was trying to block access from other other people around MJ.
She wrote to AEG in March (before the rehearsals even started) that this tour is dangerous and impractical to MJ! Why the hell didn't she go and say something to Michael about it, she went to AEG! No wonder they were ready to give a boot to her, she was behaving like TII was doomed and gloomed even before rehearsals started. Who needs that kind of negative person in their team when they are trying to do their best to make TII success and then there is KF sticking her nose where it doesn't belong to.

 

[qbee]

^^ Yes I agree that whole email chain above was about getting MJ to Uk to make the TII announcement.

Summary:
Gongaware felt MJ was lazy about those kinds of things and would try to back out of making the announcement. He felt it was Important to show MJ to the world. He wanted them to explain to MJ how he would make more money, more ticket sales by making the announcement himself. But AEG would go with or without him to make the announcement themselves because the press conference was already advertised. It was his (MJ's) choice

 

[bouee]

I agree with you re Karen, and it was obviously not the first time, at least Kenny knew her from previous tours.

About that chain of e mails, especially this one :

"Email on 2/27/09 from Gongaware to Phillips: We are holding all of the risk, if MJ won't t approve it we go without his approval
"

I'm not sure if that referred to the O2 annpouncement, or 50 shows instead of 31, because the very first tweet refers to the number of shows, and the tweets after refer to the press conference : this is confusing.

Anyway, whichever it is , at least it shows the type of relationship & a global context, I guess.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 9 h

"It wasn't much risk at all, we hadn't spent money," Gongaware said about that point of the tour. This was prior to news conference.
Ouvrir
ABC7 Court News ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 9 h

"People were aware at this point there would be a press conference. MJ wouldn't show up at the conference, it'd cost money," Gongaware said
Ouvrir
ABC7 Court News ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 9 h

Email cont'd: because he is lazy and constantly changes his mind to fit his immediate wants.
Ouvrir
ABC7 Court News ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 9 h

Email cont'd: We cannot be forced into stopping this, which MJ will try to do...
Ouvrir
ABC7 Court News ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 9 h

Email cont'd: We let Mikey know just what it will cost him in terms of him making money, and the we go with or without him in London.
Ouvrir
ABC7 Court News ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 9 h

Email on 2/27/09 from Gongaware to Phillips: We are holding all of the risk, if MJ won't t approve it we go without his approval
Ouvrir
ABC7 Court News ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 9 h

"No one knows how many shows we can get with Mikey," said Gongaware. Panish asked about name "Mikey" - he said he used it occasionally

 

[qbee]

^^ I dont think the Email from 2/27 was about the 50 show because at that time they had no idea yet what would sell.
No one knows how many shows we can get with Mikey," said Gongaware
They announced 10, a promotion gimick to peak interest knowing 31 was what was planned. It was only later after the announcement on on march 5th when they placed the first tickets up that they realised they could sell much more.

 

[bouee]

I dont think the Email from 2/27 was about the 50 show because at that time they had no idea yet what would sell.
No one knows how many shows we can get with Mikey," said Gongaware
They announced 10, a promotion gimick to peak interest knowing 31 was what was planned. It was only later after the announcement on on march 5th when they placed the first tickets up that they realised they could sell much more..

True, thank you

 

[Bubs]

On a side note: it will be interesting to see how Mr. Duke handles his "reporting" (and I use the word loosely) when Mr. Putnam presents his case.

Yes, I would be interested to see what way he is going to do his reporting
At the moment he barely writes anything about defences replies to plaintiffs question.
I wonder if he is going to report only AEG side as he has done so far, or is he still going to report what plaintiffs are saying?
I rarely read his post anyore, as if you need to be aware of everything what has been said in the court room, AD is not your man.

 

[Bubs]

So I gather that there were two separate" pulling the plug"emails.
One for KF and one in June for TII?

I can understand them wanting to get rid of KF. I was reading her testimony:
"Panish asks if Karen had any concerns when Michael first contacted her. She says she had a problem with Raymone Bain and Grace Rwaramba because she knew they didn’t like her and didn’t want her around. Karen says she did not have any concerns about the TII concerts at the time of the phone call but after the conversation she went online and viewed the concert schedule. She says she thought the concerts were too close and there wasn’t enough time for Michael to recuperate, rest, sleep between shows so Karen contacts Kenny Ortega and says there needs to be a change to the schedule. Karen says Kenny kind of fluffed it off and did not seem real concerned about it."

The moment she signed the contract, she went to online to check the schedule, and she wasn't happy with it so she contacted on KO.
What normal friend would have done in that situation, she should have gone to talk to MJ and ask him to talk to KO and AEG and re-schedule to concerts. They did re-scheduling already, so I belive they would have done it again if MJ asked, but he didn't.
After KF signed to contract, she stepped to few toes with her demands, and started bossing around despite it wasn't her job to do so.
In AEG eyes, she was just a make-up person, not a boss of anyone, and it wasn't her job to do speak on behalf of Michael.

Also I was thinking if it was KF that did something to get rid of Grace as she didn't like her either, nor Raymone? I wonder if she went to MJ and said something to him and MJ asked AEG to get rid of Grace?

 

[gerryevans]

What MJ was suffering has nothing to do with propofol. take 10 mg of lorazepam , tell us how do you feel or what the people around you feel.

I think I'll stay away from it, thanks.

But propofol does have side effects, which can include confusion and anxiety. I don't believe it's true it had "nothing" to do with the way MJ was being affected, maybe not to the extent of the other drugs, but since it was the combination of propofol and the other drugs that killed him, I do think it contributed to what was happening to him before his death, especially when it was being given to him almost daily for six weeks. That was such an abberatioin, is it definitely known what that kind of overuse would do to anyone.

 

[Bubs]

Another train of thought, first Karen says this in March:
Karen Faye: “in the beginning, when I first saw him, I thought he was great. He was very happy, very – it was just so great to see him, and very upbeat, very clear. But he was on the thin side, was my opinion, for starting a tour.

and she feels that TII concerts should be re-scheduled.
Why would she think that? Is she shooting on her on foor with this?
Her saying MJ was already thin and needed re-scheduling in March, says to me that she knew what was coming. If she knew that MJ would resort using propofol, she will shoot herself on the foot,and this case. Also all that happened before MJ brought in CM.
Plaintiffs are trying to show that AEG negligently hired and supervised CM, but their own star witness is testifying MJ wasn't ok (in her opinion) in March, shows to jurors that MJ declining health wasn't CM's doing, he was in bad form already.

That doesn't go with this lawsuit, when they are trying to point that AEG negligently hired CM, who killed MJ with propofol, when MJ's own staff are testifying that MJ was bad form in March and CM wasn't even hired then?

 

[bouee]

So I gather that there were two separate" pulling the plug"emails.
One for KF and one in June for TII?

I can understand them wanting to get rid of KF. I was reading her testimony:
"Panish asks if Karen had any concerns when Michael first contacted her. She says she had a problem with Raymone Bain and Grace Rwaramba because she knew they didn’t like her and didn’t want her around. Karen says she did not have any concerns about the TII concerts at the time of the phone call but after the conversation she went online and viewed the concert schedule. She says she thought the concerts were too close and there wasn’t enough time for Michael to recuperate, rest, sleep between shows so Karen contacts Kenny Ortega and says there needs to be a change to the schedule. Karen says Kenny kind of fluffed it off and did not seem real concerned about it."

The moment she signed the contract, she went to online to check the schedule, and she wasn't happy with it so she contacted on KO.
What normal friend would have done in that situation, she should have gone to talk to MJ and ask him to talk to KO and AEG and re-schedule to concerts. They did re-scheduling already, so I belive they would have done it again if MJ asked, but he didn't.
After KF signed to contract, she stepped to few toes with her demands, and started bossing around despite it wasn't her job to do so.
In AEG eyes, she was just a make-up person, not a boss of anyone, and it wasn't her job to do speak on behalf of Michael.

Also I was thinking if it was KF that did something to get rid of Grace as she didn't like her either, nor Raymone? I wonder if she went to MJ and said something to him and MJ asked AEG to get rid of Grace?

yes, i think "pulling the plug" was the trendy phrase at the time. In june, I think it was only a threat, just to make Michael rehearse, since they thought his problems were psychological. I'm not sure they considered actually doing it, they were worried that Michael would cancel on them, they were trying to avoid that.

Re KF : i wonder how Michael could bear working with her. I guess she reminded him of his childhood and the Jacksons drama kings and queens who were sourrounding him (joking).... especially when you see the women he married, who sound totally opposite from that kind of BS. Seriously, I think he was used to putting up with this, unfortunately, he probably didn't mind.

Re Grace : did Karen even go to Carolwood , did she know her that well ? I was thinking it was Michael who asked AEG to fire Grace. At least he would have agreed to it, don't you think ? I was wondering why AEG would get involved with this, unless PG did it as a personal favor to Michael.

 

[bouee]

Another train of thought, first Karen says this in March:
Karen Faye: “in the beginning, when I first saw him, I thought he was great. He was very happy, very – it was just so great to see him, and very upbeat, very clear. But he was on the thin side, was my opinion, for starting a tour.

and she feels that TII concerts should be re-scheduled.
Why would she think that? Is she shooting on her on foor with this?
Her saying MJ was already thin and needed re-scheduling in March, says to me that she knew what was coming. If she knew that MJ would resort using propofol, she will shoot herself on the foot,and this case. Also all that happened before MJ brought in CM.
Plaintiffs are trying to show that AEG negligently hired and supervised CM, but their own star witness is testifying MJ wasn't ok (in her opinion) in March, shows to jurors that MJ declining health wasn't CM's doing, he was in bad form already.

That doesn't go with this lawsuit, when they are trying to point that AEG negligently hired CM, who killed MJ with propofol, when MJ's own staff are testifying that MJ was bad form in March and CM wasn't even hired then?

Good find.

I think she was being nosy. Michael must have complained to her about the schedule, that he apparently noticed in spite of PG's assistant artwork, and Karen decided to put on her Joan of Ark costume and became Michael's rep (in her head).

I wonder why she was not fired after all.

EDIT : you confirmed what I said earlier : no one was worried in march for Michael's health, so if that was Panish's point, then it's really weak. It must be something else (AEG didn't want to hear about problems, AEG could fire Karen even if Michael chose her, so they could have fired Murray, . can't think of anything else right now)

 

[Bubs]

Didn't Karen testify that during MJ's earlier tour, she complained about Debbie being jealous of her and it was Debbie's fault she got sacked so she talked to MJ and MJ made Debbie to apologise her (or something similar)?
So I was thinking that she could have said something about Grace to MJ and MJ as usual didn't want to fire anyone so he could have ask AEG to fire her, or it could be that MJ didn't think kids needed 2 nannies and asked AEG to the firing. It doesn't seem plausible that AEG worked in their own iniative and decided that MJ's kids don't need Grace or they felt the need to cut back MJ spending for his own staff.

I don't know if KF was seen in Carolwood. If she did Kai Chase would have gotted the boot too She is much prettier than any of ladies around MJ that time

 

[bouee]

I don't know if KF was seen in Carolwood. If she did Kai Chase would have gotted the boot too She is much prettier than any of ladies around MJ that time

lol ! exactly what I thought when you mentionned Kai !! If Karen had seen her, Kai would have ended up on planet Mars in 15 mn !

 

[bouee]

Didn't Karen testify that during MJ's earlier tour, she complained about Debbie being jealous of her and it was Debbie's fault she got sacked so she talked to MJ and MJ made Debbie to apologise her (or something similar)?

Frankly , I feel closer to Debbie, or Kenny, or how I imagine them to be. I could not stand Karen more than 5 mn, and it would be : "either you calm down and start respecting people, or you just go"

As for Michael, he probably asked Debbie to apologise, to allow a "fresh start" between them. I'm sure Debbie made it very colorfully clear to Karen how she felt about her when she was fired, so apologising was necessary from a diplomatic point of view, to calm down Karen.
From Debbie's point of view, it must have been purely diplomatic : I suppose she wouldn't need to be asked if she wanted to apologise.

That is IF we believe Karen's story !

 

[Virre]

Karen did talk a lot on her facebook back in 2009. Among many things she talked about Michael telling her to lock the door to dressing room and not letting anyone in. She talked about that happening when Randy Philips would be at rehearsals and he wanted to talk with Michael. same with Dileo. I´m going through my notes to see if she said anything about Kenny. But I don´t think so.

When it comes to Grace there are many stories and thoughts, a few coming from Paris too. I don´t think Karen had anything to do with Michael firing Grace that last time. She had been fired a few times before but always came back, either some nanny or or taking care of his business. So many thoughts about her from many, some are good and some are really bad. I have no idea if anything is true, but Michael´s children wouldn´t lie about her I think.

 

[bouee]

Thanks, that's an indication. The problem with Karen would be what to believe. Or maybe she's not lying , technically, but more like really exaggerating things, indicating Michael was not comfortable with Phillips and Dileo for some reason.

What did Paris say about Grace ?

 

[ivy]

Unfortunately, this conversation did not continue via email. I do NOT believe they are referring to Faye.

You need to pay attention to the date. March 25, 2009. This was 20 days after the announcement and 20 days before the dancer auditions. Michael hadn't even set foot on the stage, he wasn't rehearsing. So why would they pull the plug on a tour they just announced and did not even start working on?

Also if you look to testimony you will see there weren't any concerns in this time. People testified Michael was attentive and involved in production meetings. He was able to do 30 spins in April and even Karen says she saw the change when Michael started rehearsing.

Also let me provide some more info to you all

On March 25 Kenny Ortega sent an email to Gongaware and Bugzee. In his email he talked about Michael Prince wanting go into MJ's storage to look for tour items, MJ wanting new dancers but want the old vocalists, MJ wanting to get Slash, Jennifer or hot female guitarist, talk about Payne and Lavelle's meeting with MJ, MJ wanting dance auditions to be recorded and be a press event, going to Vegas with MJ to watch Criss Angel Cirque show because MJ wanted Criss to develop a special illusion for TII.

In this email Ortega also says that Karen called him saying Michael reached out to her and she was thrilled they'll be all working together. KO writes Karen's concerns "It's her strong opinion this dangerous and impractical with consideration to MJ's health and ability to perform". he also adds "In the past (10-12 years ago)Karen often would speak on his behalf with regard to these kinds of issues. It was awkward for many, to say the least. I know Paul remembers, Karen has MJ's ear".

Now let's look to what ABC7courts reported

Email on 3/25/09 from Gongaware to Phillips: It's her (Faye) strong opinion this is dangerous/impractical w/ MJ's health/ability to perform. This means Gongaware forwarded Kenny's email to Phillips. Kenny's original email was addressed to Gongaware and Bugzee. ABC7 "Response from Gongaware to Phillips: Not sure what to send back..." Gongaware did know how to respond to that. ABC7 : Randy responded: "We need to pull the plug now. I will explain."

To me it looks like they had issues with Karen (just as she has issues with them) and did not want to hire her. Sure AEG might have considered to pull the plug on TII by late June but March 25 was too early to consider TII cancellation IMO. March 25 was just 20 days after announcement and 20 days BEFORE auditions and any rehearsal. Why cancel TII before they even start working? And by all accounts - including Karen's - Michael was attentive and involved in production meetings. Even Karen did not get worried or suspicious until Michael took the stage to rehearse. By March 25 Michael wasn't rehearsing at all. March 24, MJ had just met with Travis Payne, they were talking about where to practice and when to start practicing. Also "pull the plug" or not hire Karen might not mean anything if Michael had the power to make the decisions and said "I want her".

I'll also remind you about Karen's own testimony. "Karen says most every manager wanted to replace her because she was in a position that stood in front of Michael and touched him." so if Karen herself says people always wanted to replace her why is it so unbelievable that she wasn't AEG's or Ortega's top choice either?

Sorry for quoting myself, does anyone know the answer to my question below ?

depends on the verdict form. Didn't AEG's version had a line for each defendant and Jacksons did not want it? If there's a line for responsibility for each defendant one of them can be found responsible while others aren't. If there is only one line, they can't.

'Edit : it aslo shows AEG had the power to fire her. What is imlied, I guess, is that they also had the power to fire Murray.

but she wasn't fired. If AEG wanted to fire her but she still kept her job that shows that Michael actually had power over AEG to get and keep whomever he wanted - regardless of what AEG wanted.

Karen did talk a lot on her facebook back in 2009. Among many things she talked about Michael telling her to lock the door to dressing room and not letting anyone in. She talked about that happening when Randy Philips would be at rehearsals and he wanted to talk with Michael. same with Dileo. I´m going through my notes to see if she said anything about Kenny. But I don´t think so.

Do you have an exact quote for what Karen said about locking the doors?

 

[Virre]

^^
I will try to find it, I copied everything she said on her facebook and have it one word document. I´ll start looking when I get home tonight.

 

[Big Apple2]

Thank you guys for all of the updates. Much appreciated!

Now is it just me, or has Mr. Panish lost the plot? I mean, what happened to the EVIDENCE regarding the claims of "AEG negligently hired and supervised Conrad Murray."

As the old lady from the burger commercial back in the day said: WHERE'S THE BEEF?

The only substantial thing I got out of yesterday's testimony is when Gongaware said: "In this case, Dr. Murray was recommended by the artist. In fact, the artist INSISTED." And that doesn't help Mother's case at all, in my opinion.

 

[bouee]

depends on the verdict form. Didn't AEG's version had a line for each defendant and Jacksons did not want it? If there's a line for responsibility for each defendant one of them can be found responsible while others aren't. If there is only one line, they can't.

Ok thanks. So Phillips and/or Gongaware could be found liable, and not AEG.
There was another question I asked some time ago, I did not get an answer either : when and how will the verdicts be decided ? is it at the end of the testimonies ? Is it the judge only, or the jury also have their say ? Until when can the suggested verdicts be changed by the parties involved?

but she wasn't fired. If AEG wanted to fire her but she still kept her job that shows that Michael actually had power over AEG to get and keep whomever he wanted - regardless of what AEG wanted.

Or, other possibility, once you know her, you don't pay much attention to her, and that's it, she's no longer such a big problem, she's a make up artist, so she can't do much harm.
So if Phillips had not worked with her before, maybe he was surprised and wanted to "pull the plug" , and the others were more like "oh, don't bother, it's Karen, if Michael wants her, then that's OK, just don't listen to her", or something like that.

Does anyone else remember that at some point there was another make up artist for Michael ?

 

[ivy]

Ok thanks. So Phillips and/or Gongaware could be found liable, and not AEG.

again depending on the verdict form.

There was another question I asked some time ago, I did not get an answer either : when and how will the verdicts be decided ? is it at the end of the testimonies ? Is it the judge only, or the jury also have their say ? Until when can the suggested verdicts be changed by the parties involved?

you mean the verdict form? The judge will decide it by looking to the arguments from both sides. I have no idea when it'll be done or perhaps it's done and not on the online document system.

Jury will get the verdict form after all the testimony is done and will follow it to make a decision.

 

[bouee]

^^^thanks Ivy, yes, that's what i meant.

 

[bouee]

Re verdict forms : do you (or anyone else) know if the judge has to choose between both forms, or can she pick things from one side, and other things from the other, or even re write it completely ?
And does she have to explain her decision ?