Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[EmmaJay]

Where are the transcripts posted?

 

[qbee]

you might want to read the opening statements from transcripts. A lot of new info that wasn't reported by media.

I agree after reading the transcript summary of the "opening statements", I have a lot better understanding of this case from both sides of the issue now. There is a lot that was not mentioned in context, in the news, that the actual transcript summaries bring to light. There are many things in the summaries we need to know, in order to be well informed while discussing this.

Where are the transcripts posted?

They are posted in this forum, in the following thread.

MJJC Exclusive: Select Transcript Summaries from Katherine Jackson - AEG Trial

 

[marebear]

I am reading the transcripts and I don't know what to think. Those AEG emails are not good at all. I feel bad for Kenny Ortega. I think he genuinely cared for Michael. How many rehearsals did Michael actually miss? That's what I don't understand. I don't trust anybody and I don't know what to believe. Michael worked so hard and I don't think he would just brush things off. This was important to him.

 

[mjj19582009]

I was reading an article that Michael wasn't in no shape to sing and dance live at the same time so he was in the studio working on his acapellas for the tour, is this true?

 

[Victory22]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Usually you're payed after a first month working. And when you're working the next month still you're payed again.
You get an amount of money which you can spend on whatever you decide doing for the work you've done. You don't have to pay back in the future. You're not like flooded by an ocean of debt. In this case it's harder, much harder than only being an employee. Is it ethical, is it 'business'... I don't know and I don't care... but it certainly puts someone in a modern form of slavery in my opinion!
I think there's a difference between what Michael might have agreed to or felt already forced to agree to (Neverland going down with loans on it bla) than what's just everyday life for most of us. The immense pressure coming with it even more when you have three underaged kids with you, I personally can't even imagine. There's a difference. But well that's certainly not the most valid point in this trial.

It's important to understand that AEG were not the only ones who invested money in the This Is It shows. MICHAEL put up large sums of his own money for production cost that AEG was going to reimburse him for so it was in fact a partnership. Both parties had a lot to lose if the shows were cancelled.

 

[mkgenie]

Huh? AEG started to call witnesses?? I thought Jackson family would call witnesses for many days...

 

[ivy]

Huh? AEG started to call witnesses?? I thought Jackson family would call witnesses for many days...

they have called 2 witnesses - Walker and Payne - out of order because they will be leaving for Japan on Wednesday.

 

[Ashtanga]

Despite all the tears of Karen, she still can not convince me. :nono: -_- Sad to see how Michael was surrounded by people false ..... Everyone is telling lies in this trial! And I'm still thinking this same way:

*big sigh*







I'll pretend I believe 1000% in you Karen.....

What I feel is that these people who were around Michael felt something was going on and that something was not right.... BUT no one really did anything for Michael. Everyone knew and even then all these people move on. Everyone was soooooooooooo close to Michael.... Why did not they something? A serious talk with him or anything.... WHY? That I never can understand! It's just sad....


Does anyone have any idea when it is expected the end of this trial crap? I can not take anymore.

*big sigh*





This trial is a joke. I can not believe that anyone would be able to take this seriously. :blink: I'm very curious to know what will be the end of it. :fear: Well, I hope that after this shit, leave Michael alone. :angel:

 

[8701girl]

I was reading an article that Michael wasn't in no shape to sing and dance live at the same time so he was in the studio working on his acapellas for the tour, is this true?

But if he was so unwell not being able to sing then what he doing sing acapella's in studio?

 

[Mechi]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

It's important to inderstand that AEG were not the only ones who invested money in the This Is It shows. MICHAEL put up large sums of his own money for production cost that AEG was going to reimburse him for so it was in fact a partnership. Both parties had a lot to lose if the shows were cancelled.

I understand the business angle of this story. That's all true of cuz.

It's just also one person (with three underaged kids) compared to the tiny 'entertainment' toe nail of a huge (AEG) company group.

There's a pressure/personal stress angle to this also... not too much on Philip Anschutz that much... true.

 

[Petrarose]

Interesting that today's witness did not think Michael would die, while Karen and Stanky saw so clearly that Michael was dying.

 

[Mechi]

yeah... if those lawyers are all not in first year in University anymore they probably told their whitnesses how to word it exactly! lol pretty interesting. I'm wondering if the Panish firm had to give Faye coaching really... she's usually already sooooo pathetic.

 

[Petrarose]

Just a reminder of what Rogers said:

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP2m
Cahan also asks about Jackson’s weight at the time of his death. He weighed 136 pounds, with a Body Mass Index of 20.1, Rogers tells jury.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP2m
Rogers testified that Michael Jackson’s Body Mass Index was within the normal range. A BMI figure below 18.5 would be underweight.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP2m
“He looked thin in comparison to most people,” Rogers said. He says Jackson did not appear emaciated. Says singer didn't appear emaciated.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP2m
Dr. Rogers said Jackson’s body didn’t have characteristics of someone who starved to death. Rogers said Jackson’s health appeared excellent.


I thought I saw in the other thread one reporter say Rogers did not say other doctors caused Michael's death, and then another article states that Rogers said other doctors contributed to Michael's death. How could these 2 be correct, unless I made a mistake in reading?

 

[Tygger]

Ivy, I cannot wait to read your opening statement summaries! I can see much information has been omitted in the media articles.

In your opinion, is any media outlet more detailed or truthful than others?

 

[mjj19582009]

That's what it says in this article MB was saying
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...Trial/page10?p=3822836&viewfull=1#post3822836

 

[qbee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

It's important to inderstand that AEG were not the only ones who invested money in the This Is It shows. MICHAEL put up large sums of his own money for production cost that AEG was going to reimburse him for so it was in fact a partnership. Both parties had a lot to lose if the shows were cancelled.

Michael didn't put up any money up in advance toward production. But he was fronted money by AEG for his expenses and production that he would later have to reimburse them from his 90% of the profits. So yes in that way he was in debt until the shows would bring in profits.

 

[bouee]

I am reading the transcripts and I don't know what to think. Those AEG emails are not good at all. I feel bad for Kenny Ortega. I think he genuinely cared for Michael. How many rehearsals did Michael actually miss? That's what I don't understand. I don't trust anybody and I don't know what to believe. Michael worked so hard and I don't think he would just brush things off. This was important to him.

Yes, "Kenny's hysteria"... this one was new to me. Kenny has known Michael for over 20 years, and he doesn't sound like a drama queen at all. I would have understood Karen's or Alif's "hysteria", but Kenny? Kenny sounds like he tried to stand up to them and lost the battle. He must feel awful, I feel bad for him too.
Whoever wrote that "hysteria" thing is stupid and mean, this has made me angry. Just because they didn't see it with their own eyes doesn't mean it didn't happen. I understand he was better on 23rd and 24th, and that they were relieved, but calling someone "hysterical" because that person reports health problems is plain stupid. That person (Philips ? ) made it more difficult for people to come forward if they saw anything, he sounds like a bully.
No wonder certain people felt they were not doing anything, or felt they had to go through them.

Interesting that today's witness did not think Michael would die, while Karen and Stanky saw so clearly that Michael was dying.

They talk about different moments : Karen and Alif talk about 19th June, Travis and Stacy talk about 23rd/24th and other moements, but the 19th.

The same goes for the opening statements. They seem to talk about different things. Jacksons are saying they put Murray in a weird position - now I understand the conflict of interest- and basically AEG should have known and ignored the red flags.

AEG is basically saying they didn't know about propofol. Of course they didn't. That's what the Jacksons are saying, they SHOULD have known, they're not saying AEG knew and chose to ignore it. Jacksons are saying they ignored the red flags, which led them to not properly evaluate the situation, and pressured the doctor. That part was not good for AEG IMO, they're not answering the question, they're switching the attention to Michael and blame the victim. We'll see what the witnesses will say.

The disagreements about rehearsing , not rehearsing is clearer. I didn't understand why it was not a problem for Philips and it was a problem for Kenny.

About the cash advance : I understand Michael must have asked for it, but why did AEG accept to advance personal money (debts/house in vegas/etc...) I understand why they pay the production costs, but I don't understand why they would do that. It sounds too much for me, that's not right. It gives them a weird unhealthy leverage on Michael.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

I understand Michael must have asked for it, but why did AEG accept to advance personal money (debts/house in
===================
like an author gets an advance when they write a book?. or an advance for releasing an album

 

[Mechi]

About the cash advance : I understand Michael must have asked for it, but why did AEG accept to advance personal money (debts/house in vegas/etc...) I understand why they pay the production costs, but I don't understand why they would do that. It sounds too much for me, that's not right. It gives them a weird unhealthy leverage on Michael.

Thank you, that's exactly what I mean with modern form of slavery!
Ppl here are right it is business!
But it's not business as usual I really hope. I mean please look at those emails. Calling the director of the tour hysterical. Pretty high horse some of those were (hope not anymore) sitting on. That's not how you treat ppl or even talk about them if you value them and respect them for who they are and what they are doing for YOUR COMPANY or even YOUR BUSINESS SUCCESS.
It's like telling a person: "Your ass is ours now (as you're hired by us)!" well okay that's stupid and not true, ppl from AEGlive surely didn't feel Michael (or his ass) the pressure, the pain, the exhaustion of not being able to sleep, all that... his ass wasn't theirs as they didn't care sh**... but heck how trapped must he have felt at times.

Knowing Michael was a highly intelligent person ALTHOUGH for many years not into touring, preparing live concerts and all that anymore... why did he agree to this? who and/or what (situation) made him?

And what made AEG going into a deal like this or how did they get a foot in the door... I mean sure Michael is the worlds most famous entertainer... however he didn't tour or gave concerts for years and years and years anymore. What made them think he could do this and prepare all this in only three months... what was their financial backing for this? Just imagine Michael wouldn't have had those two (or let it be three or four) good days (moments) at rehearsals... they wouldn't even had the TII stuff and the millions from it.

Calling Kenny 'hysterical' doesn't surprise me however. There were AEG ppl especially R. Phillips really treating Michael as THE cashCOW not really good. So they wouldn't treat others much better.
What I don't understand is, that when Michael, the person as the garant of all their investment, the angle of all of their business... that they didn't care more about him, that they didn't check on the doctor (even more since he wanted an unhealthy amount of money!) when the ordinary fan was able to find his money situation over simply googling him. That's so much more carelessness than business usually includes and it would have been so easy.
Sure maybe they've thought, who cares Michael will have to pay this back, so who cares... and well maybe they saw Michaels catalogue already flying to them... but heck... I don't really get this arrogance... or is it more to call ignorance... I just can't feel they took this serious somehow.

Would you go into a business without checking all around... a business you seriously want to suceed?!

One question to me is really how did they make Michael agree into this. Michael was used to this business... sure he really wanted This Is It and all that... but heck he brought himself in a pretty trapped/hopeless situation...

Although I don't think he'd necessarily tell the truth, I'd most like Thome Thome to answer some questions in court... but isn't he in a fine position? He's not sued here. He's not AEG part, nor was he Michaels manager anymore... what a fine coincidence for him. Wondering if he'll be called in the witness stand and who'll ask him what questions.

But well let's wait and see...

 

[bouee]

Thank you, that's exactly what I mean with modern form of slavery!

It must be usual as Elusive said, since I think it was AEG who brought it up. I would like to know if the amount is usual though.

Ppl here are right it is business!
But it's not business as usual I really hope. I mean please look at those emails. Calling the director of the tour hysterical. Pretty high horse some of those were (hope not anymore) sitting on. That's not how you treat ppl or even talk about them if you value them and respect them for who they are and what they are doing for YOUR COMPANY or even YOUR BUSINESS SUCCESS.
It's like telling a person: "Your ass is ours now (as you're hired by us)!" well okay that's stupid and not true, ppl from AEGlive surely didn't feel Michael (or his ass) the pressure, the pain, the exhaustion of not being able to sleep, all that... his ass wasn't theirs as they didn't care sh**... but heck how trapped must he have felt at times.

I agree, it is becoming SOOOOO common now. People are more and more under pressure and more and more disrespectful and inhuman, business explains everything. And more and more people can't cope with it. Burn out is becoming common in Europe, we even have "laughing classes", to help cope with stress !!
Those hysteria comments and other comments are the type of things I would hear daily about many people in my previous job. And i'm not the only one, and there are other forms of bullying than plain insults. I'm not good at dealing with these people, they get on my nerves, but some people are.
Maybe Kenny and Michael didn't care too much about the "way' those people were, or better said, were not affected and could do their jobs in spite of that. Kenny definitely sounds like that, he was not afraid to speak his mind. We don't know yet how Michael reacted to that. He probably chose AEG because they are good professionals, in spite of being poor human beings (some of them).

 

[Diplomate]

Michael didn't have enough cash in 2009 to rent the house where he died, he was billionnaire, but not with cash. So he accepted the cash AEG and they advanced the rent and other things. During the concerts, Mike would have refunded everything.

 

[LastTear]

Can we post quotes from the transcripts in this thread?

Houghdahl, is that Kenny's assistant? I'm only a short way into the transcripts, but yes those emails sound impersonal, the problem with emails is that we write them as if we are just talking to someone, but it's hard to read 'tone'.

This 'drama queen' statement, I would like to see the communication that lead to Houghdahl using that phrase.

I really don't think that Mikey is a derogatory term.

As we have said before the problem here is that Phillips was taking Murray's advice, he states that he had a lengthy conversation with Murray. And following the meeting I think Murray and most likely Michael managed to alleviate any concerns that kenny had raised with AEG. Although I note that it is mentioned that Kai will testify that the meeting went differently. I'm sure I saw in a thread that she still works for the Jacksons (?)

Where did I read that Murray told someone not to give in and pander to Michael?

Edited to add. It's funny I read Jacksons opening and I think 'OMG that's awful' followed by reading AEG's opening and I go 'yes, that's a compelling argument' - I guess that tells us that we really need to hear all the evidence.

 

[bouee]

Can we post quotes from the transcripts in this thread?



As we have said before the problem here is that Phillips was taking Murray's advice, he states that he had a lengthy conversation with Murray. And following the meeting I think Murray and most likely Michael managed to alleviate any concerns that kenny had raised with AEG. Although I note that it is mentioned that Kai will testify that the meeting went differently. I'm sure I saw in a thread that she still works for the Jacksons (?)


Where did I read that Murray told someone not to give in and pander to Michael?

Re Murray's lies. I agree, that's what caused the situation, but it seems that AEG is not going that way. They refuse to stipulate that Murray killed Michael. They take a lot of time to say that Michael was concealing stuff, they hardly mention Murray.

One reason I think is that it's precisely what the jacksons are accusing AEG of : failing to supervise Murray. So the more AEG insist on Murray's lies, the more complicated their defense will get : the more the "failed supervision" will be huge. I hope what I'm saying is clear.

Another reason would be if they want/have to get Murray to testify. Everyone has an interest to put the blame on Michael.

 

[LastTear]

I have just seen this:

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 9m
After jurors left, Judge Palazuelos said she sustained plaintiffs objection and will not allow defense to use Dr. Murray's intvw w/ LAPD

I'm really shocked, I don't get this at all. A question within this trial is whether AEG hired Murray, here you actually have the words of the person in question..... and they can't use it? And yet AEG can use parts of the very same interview as it suits them?? I really must be missing something here.

 

[bouee]

I have just seen this:



I'm really shocked, I don't get this at all. A question within this trial is whether AEG hired Murray, here you actually have the words of the person in question..... and they can't use it? And yet AEG can use parts of the very same interview as it suits them?? I really must be missing something here.

So they have to get Murray on the stand if they want to use this argument ? I don't understand her decision either, but it's getting interesting.

 

[Aquarius]

I have just seen this:



I'm really shocked, I don't get this at all. A question within this trial is whether AEG hired Murray, here you actually have the words of the person in question..... and they can't use it? And yet AEG can use parts of the very same interview as it suits them?? I really must be missing something here.

That's crazy. The Judge seems to be pro-Jacksons but this in the end might hurt the Jacksons because if they win AEG will have more ammunition for an appeal.

 

[Mechi]

What's the reason not allow the interview? I don't get this either. Either it's valid what's in there or it's not. It can't be taken as evidence for only one side... that's ridiculous.

 

[Diplomate]

It smells a futur appeal.....

 

[ivy]

Ivy, I cannot wait to read your opening statement summaries! I can see much information has been omitted in the media articles.

In your opinion, is any media outlet more detailed or truthful than others?

Anthony McCartney and ABC7Courts - especially their tweets

Yes, "Kenny's hysteria"... this one was new to me. Kenny has known Michael for over 20 years, and he doesn't sound like a drama queen at all. I would have understood Karen's or Alif's "hysteria", but Kenny? Kenny sounds like he tried to stand up to them and lost the battle. He must feel awful, I feel bad for him too.

what we learned is that Kenny actually sent more than one email about this so he was the one that was making noise. It's also important to remember that I think Phillips is saying that after meeting with Murray. I'm thinking Murray was convincing that Michael was fine and they left that meeting thinking "oh Kenny is exaggerating"

Can we post quotes from the transcripts in this thread?

yes

As we have said before the problem here is that Phillips was taking Murray's advice, he states that he had a lengthy conversation with Murray. And following the meeting I think Murray and most likely Michael managed to alleviate any concerns that kenny had raised with AEG.

Exactly what I think

Edited to add. It's funny I read Jacksons opening and I think 'OMG that's awful' followed by reading AEG's opening and I go 'yes, that's a compelling argument' - I guess that tells us that we really need to hear all the evidence.

I think media while reporting left a lot out of especially from AEG's opening statements. I'm thinking the basis of Jacksons opening statement was reported well enough - minus the emails. Emails add more to the story and makes Jacksons argument stronger.

When I was reading AEG's opening statement, I felt a lot of stuff wasn't reported by media and AEG had a lot of things there. Yes they make a compelling argument

And this is too early to announce any winners. to me it looks like 50-50 and the jury can decide either way in this trial.

 

[Vici]

-Karen Faye has said on FB and Twitter (although not on trial I believe) that she told her boyfriend week(s) leading up to his death that she was worried and thought Michael would die before opening night.
-Stacy Walker was so impressed the last two days she told her mother to get ticket for the opening night.