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Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Bubs said:
In the email chain Gonga wrote:
"We are holding all the risk," Gongaware wrote to Phillips. "We let Mikey know just what this will cost him in terms of him making money.... We cannot be forced into stopping this, which MJ will try to do because he is lazy and constantly changes his mind to fit his immediate wants."

To me it looks like they weren't going to cancel, but suspected that Michael was cancelling rehearsals in order to back down from his side of contract.

Also as per Kenny O testimony:
"Finally it's important for everyone to know , I believe that he really wants this. I twould shatter him, Break his heart if we pulled the plug. He's terribly frightened it's all going to go away. "

Neither AEG not Michael wanted to cancel the concert. We have heard from Karen F and others from TII that Michael was exited but nervous, so he didn't want to cancel, and you could have imagine the uproar among fans if they pulled the plug on Michael's comeback.
It is easy in the hindsight to say what should have done, but we weren't there and we don't know all the things that went on.
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As a matter of fact they could have pulled the plug.
For the price of losing billions of dollars but as a matter of fact they could have!
They've chosen not to.
Both Michael and AEG.


Surely that is what some ppl sometimes want to make you believe for an easy excuse or an easy way out of might being responsible, that there is no choice. It's not true.

Perfect example is Karen Faye couldn't have said more or done more cuz then she would have lost her job!
Welllllllllll that's exactly it. She could have done more for the price of might losing her job! She could have done more!

Would it have been less pressure on Michael if those concerts which were already postponed would have not caused such an uproar in the fan community (which was to me understandable however a bit too much at times).
We also could have acted differently to make it easier for him.

A responsible adult will never tell you I couldn't have done it differently. A responsible adult will tell you why they did what they did or haven't done what they could have done.

The question is if it's up to us to judge them or anyone for it.

Those jurors now have to decide if according to the law with all the given facts AEG was obliged to act differently.

Could Michael be still alive if someone would have done something differently aside from Murray who was already found guilty in front of court... that is the question nobody can answer for sure as he is dead now.

He might could be... I don't know.

But it's over. To me it's over since 25th June 2009. It doesn't matter to me, really not anymore what anyone will tell about the time before his death. Sometimes I wish they'd all shut up forever. But yeah sometimes I'd wish them all behind barrs... Thome Thome first, Barrack, Gongaware, Phillips, Anschutz... it's the loss, the pain we feel... but the pain wouldn't be lessened by them sitting in jail... I mean it didn't get better for me with Murray in jail, so...
I wish them all in Gods hands as I do wish myself also! That's where justice will be found.
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I understand Mechi. You post is full of "what ifs" and you start your what ifs from this is it tour. My what ifs goes far more earlier in Michael's life, basically since he stepped into limelight.
Terrible chain reaction and as Ivy said earlier, they run out the time.
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

bouee said:
EDIT : Michael was not an employee, AEG and Michael had contractual obligations to each other, they were more like partners.
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My understanding is different:
Partner I call ppl who go into business with the same investment of money.
Yep that's undoubtfully a fact to me that money makes a business as business.
When someone is paying all your life expenses etc. that's called dependency in my book of life, the longer it takes, the more debts means more pressure in this dependency.
That's also why there's laws about work employment... to remind employers they do have obligations. They can buy work but they can't buy ppl. There's a difference.
To call Michael a partner sounds nice... but somehow to me it coul sound more as if someone doesn't want to give him the basic rights of an employee. Could be... I certainly don't know.
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Mechi said:
My understanding is different:
Partner I call ppl who go into business with the same investment of money.
Yep that's undoubtfully a fact to me that money makes a business as business.
When someone is paying all your life expenses etc. that's called dependency in my book of life, the longer it takes, the more debts means more pressure in this dependency.
That's also why there's laws about work employment... to remind employers they do have obligations. They can buy work but they can't buy ppl. There's a difference.
To call Michael a partner sounds nice... but somehow to me it coul sound more as if someone doesn't want to give him the basic rights of an employee. Could be... I certainly don't know.
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The problem is, Michael agreed to that (bolded part). I think he wanted to do the shows (or maybe needed if you prefer to put it that way). Cancelling them would have hurt him, it's not a solution for me.
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Mechi said:
When someone is paying all your life expenses etc. that's called dependency in my book of life.
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If that's the case, then we are ALL dependent upon "someone" for our life expenses.

And that includes rich folk, who continue to earn money from investments, business, etc. Right down to poor folks (like me), who work an everyday job, take orders from upper management, report to work on time everyday, and perform my duties to the best of my ability - as expected.

Such is life. You work. You get paid. You take care of your living expenses. In effect you become DEPENDENT on that job. You need it and in some cases you cannot survive without it.

On another note: I wonder what Debbie Rowe thinks about Karen testifying that she was jealous of Karen Faye. Ms. Rowe is pretty outspoken, wonder what her response will be, if any.
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

bouee said:
The problem is, Michael agreed to that (bolded part). I think he wanted to do the shows (or maybe needed if you prefer to put it that way). Cancelling them would have hurt him, it's not a solution for me.
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Michael agreed to the terms and I guess this is how it's done if there is no sponsor involved.
 
This whole thing was rushed, THAT is the problem.
I know the negotiations started a loooong time before the contract was signed, but between the contract being signed and the first concert there wasn't enough time.
3 months to prepare for a 50 year old who had not toured for something like 12 years since his last tour ended, is not enough time to build up fitness and stamina. Even a trained athlete can take longer than 3 months to prepare for a big event, let alone a concert series extending to 30+ dates.
That timescale put MJ under an incredible amount of stress. It would have been stressful enough going back on tour after the criminal trial, after so long away from touring, and so long after you last had a hit song on the charts, but factor in such a short preparation time and financial pressures and it's clear why he buckled. I'm sure Madonna, who has toured frequently in the last 12 years, takes longer than 3 months to get it together. She would probably be put on a strict diet regime too to maintain energy levels. MJ wasn't eating properly and combined with increased exercise caused him to lose weight fast. It's clear that MJ had an ongoing issue with drugs of one sort or another, and that also contributes to loss of appetite and weight. Having that pressure on your shoulders will inevitably have strong potential to cause a drug relapse. Trust me, I know. God knows why MJ insisted on using Propofol when it certainly never had the beneficial effects of improving his sleep.

As somebody said, MJ was a grown man and was in control of his own destiny, but unfortunately somebody with weakness of mind who has succumbed to drugs cannot make reliable decisions for themselves. They are not capable of thinking straight. He needed an intervention. He needed somebody to take responsibility and to put a stop to it. It was clear from the accounts that we have read that people were growing increasingly concerned about him and I hope that would have escalated over time. Unfortunately though MJ liked to surround himself with people who liked to say 'yes'. That is a dangerous situation to put yourself in, as proven by his death. We have wondered why MJ hired Dr Murray - a Doctor whose medical standing was questionable at best - when he should have had the best doctors money could buy. Unfortunately the answer is simple. The reason MJ hired him instead of the best doctors is because Murray agreed to his requests for Propofol. Sure, Murray broke the law, but I do believe that MJ hired the doctor and requested that particular treatment. I don’t see how AEG can be held liable for that. Murray agreed because he needed the money, so he said 'yes' when the best doctors refused, THAT is why MJ died. It's a sad story but if MJ had sought proper treatment from trustworthy doctors he would still be alive. 'This Is It' may never have happened and the fallout from cancelling the concerts may have lead to him declaring bankruptcy, but he would have still been alive. It's very sad, but as hard faced as AEG were in their handling MJ to protect their own financial intersts, I can’t see how AEG are liable for his death, especially as they didn’t sign a contract with Murray.
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Bubs said:
In the email chain Gonga wrote:
"We are holding all the risk," Gongaware wrote to Phillips. "We let Mikey know just what this will cost him in terms of him making money.... We cannot be forced into stopping this, which MJ will try to do because he is lazy and constantly changes his mind to fit his immediate wants."

To me it looks like they weren't going to cancel, but suspected that Michael was cancelling rehearsals in order to back down from his side of contract.

Also as per Kenny O testimony:
"Finally it's important for everyone to know , I believe that he really wants this. I twould shatter him, Break his heart if we pulled the plug. He's terribly frightened it's all going to go away. "
Click to expand...
I'm glad orgeta isn't part of this lawsuit. He seems to have some humanity and can have basic empathy with what mj was going through. But gongaware, blaming everything on mj being lazy, writing to phillips who saw for himself the terrified state that mj got in before the tii press conf which he admitted was the 'scariest sight he had ever seen' - i don't think mj could have found a couple of more insensitive, callous 'partners' to manage his comeback if he tried. And no, i'm not interested in hearing how aeg is a big ruthless corporation and that's how they all act, they were jerks, you can find them in any walk of life.
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

From Ivy's summary
On Monday, AEG attorneys are expected to call their first witnesses, choreographers Stacy Walker and Travis Payne. Because the two must leave for a show in Tokyo, Judge Yvette Palazuelos has allowed the defense to call them early. Faye will return afterward. (LATimes)
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So AEG will call these witnesses and then we are back to Jackson's witnesses?
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

LastTear said:
From Ivy's summary


So AEG will call these witnesses and then we are back to Jackson's witnesses?
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Thanks for posting that LastTear.

I have read about Walker and Payne taking the witness stand today, but for whatever reason I didn't notice that they were both AEG witnesses. Very interesting.

I'm not positive about Mr. Payne's background, but is it true that he has worked with Michael on many occassions in the past. Can anybody provide any information as to Travis Payne's working relationship with MJ. Thank you.
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Are Stacy and Travis one off from AEG witness list because they are heading to somewhere, or are the testimonies going to be first Jackson's then AEG?
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Big Apple2 said:
I'm not positive about Mr. Payne's background, but is it true that he has worked with Michael on many occassions in the past. Can anybody provide any information as to Travis Payne's working relationship with MJ. Thank you.
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http://travispayne.net/choreographer

He seems to have worked with MJ for long time according to link above.
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Reading Ivy's summary I am taking it that AEG are calling them so they should go first.... I think.
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

LastTear said:
From Ivy's summary


So AEG will call these witnesses and then we are back to Jackson's witnesses?
Click to expand...

yes, that's right
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Bubs said:
http://travispayne.net/choreographer

He seems to have worked with MJ for long time according to link above.
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Thanks Bubs. I love MJ fans, they are always so quick when a request for information comes in. Love that!

I'm at work and can not access that particular link. I'll have to check it out later. Thanks again.

Oh so he has worked with Michael for a long period of time. I wonder if Michael's wives were jealous of him too.
 
^^ Karen F was jealous of anyone/anything with 2 legs:)



Recap:
Jackson civil jury hears roots of singer's trouble

By The Associated Press | Associated Press – Sat, May 11, 2013 10:53 AM EDT

LOS ANGELES (AP) — A look at key moments this past week in the wrongful death trial in Los Angeles between Michael Jackson's mother, Katherine Jackson, and concert giant AEG Live, and what is expected at court in the week ahead:
THE CASE
Jackson's mother wants a jury to determine that the promoter of Jackson's planned comeback concerts didn't properly investigate Dr. Conrad Murray, who a criminal jury convicted of involuntary manslaughter for Jackson's June 2009 death. AEG's attorney says the case is about personal choice, namely Jackson's decision to have Murray serve as his doctor and give him doses of a powerful anesthetic as a sleep aid. Millions, possibly billions, of dollars are at stake.
WHAT HAPPENED
— Jurors heard about Jackson in life and death from a pair of women who knew him and from coroner's officials who pieced together how he died. Jackson's mother skipped morbid testimony about Jackson's autopsy, but listened as her son's friend and makeup artist told jurors about watching him perform, and gradually become more dependent on prescription drugs.
— Jackson's longtime makeup artist Karen Faye testified that she overheard AEG co-CEO Paul Gongaware tell the singer's assistant to do "whatever it takes" to get the superstar out of a locked bathroom and to a rehearsal. Faye said Gongaware and another AEG official pushed Jackson to perform despite his emaciated appearance and signs of paranoia.
WHAT THE JURY SAW
— A black-and-white photo of Jackson's lifeless body lying on a table before his autopsy. The image was shown in open court for less than a minute.
— Faye repeatedly break down in tears as she described how Jackson trusted his doctors but became more dependent on prescription medications in the early 1990s when he was on his "Dangerous" tour and facing his first bout of child molestation allegations.
QUOTABLE MOMENTS
— "Michael would do five songs to the dancers' one. I never saw anything like it." (Makeup artist and hair stylist Karen Faye, describing Jackson's stamina and ability to put all pain aside while he was performing.)
— "When I hugged him, he just felt like marble. But when I hugged, when I saw him briefly in 2006, he didn't feel like that anymore. He felt thin." (Dancer and choreographer Alif Sankey, who contrasted Jackson's appearance and build when she met him while shooting the "Smooth Criminal" video with the final years of his life.)

OUTSIDE THE COURTROOM
— A 20-minute preview of the Cirque du Soleil show "Immortal" based on Jackson's career and music was previewed at Las Vegas' Mandalay Bay hotel-casino. The show is scheduled to open June 29.

WHAT'S NEXT
— Jurors will hear from AEG Live's first witnesses, a pair of choreographers who worked with Jackson and who will be called out of order to accommodate their touring schedule.
— Deputy Medical Examiner Christopher Rogers is expected to resume testifying and may offer an estimate of how long Jackson would have lived if he hadn't received an overdose of the anesthetic propofol.

http://music.yahoo.com/news/jackson-civil-jury-hears-roots-singers-trouble-145309654.html

Rogers is going to resume after dancers, but Karen F wasn't finished yet?
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Yes he has been around awhile, he worked with Michael on Ghosts.
 
Big Apple2;3822887 said:
Thanks for posting that LastTear.

I have read about Walker and Payne taking the witness stand today, but for whatever reason I didn't notice that they were both AEG witnesses. Very interesting.

I'm not positive about Mr. Payne's background, but is it true that he has worked with Michael on many occassions in the past. Can anybody provide any information as to Travis Payne's working relationship with MJ. Thank you.
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Bubs;3822892 said:
http://travispayne.net/choreographer

He seems to have worked with MJ for long time according to link above.
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From that link, he has worked with Michael on Dangerous, History and This is it Tours. Plus on MJ Short films, videos and several Award shows. Here is the list for those who can't view the link


Travis Payne

Tours
MICHAEL JACKSON – Dangerous World Tour
MICHAEL JACKSON – World HIStory Tour
MICHAEL JACKSON – This Is It 2009 World Tour/AEG Live

Videos
MICHAEL JACKSON – World HIStory Tour
MICHAEL JACKSON – Ghosts
MICHAEL JACKSON – HIStory
MICHAEL JACKSON & JANET JACKSON – Scream *

Award Shows
1993 WORLD MUSIC AWARDS w/ Michael Jackson
1993 SOUL TRAIN MUSIC AWARDS w/ Michael Jackson
1993 AMERICAN MUSIC AWARDS w/ Michael Jackson
1995 MTV VIDEO MUSIC AWARDS w/ Michael Jackson/Opening Segment *
1996 BRITISH MUSIC AWARDS w/ Michael Jackson
 
Big Apple2;3822794 said:
Yeah it breaks my heart also.

Not only was he a50-year old man, in my opinion, Michael Jackson was NO pushover and got what he wanted, when he wanted it.

I also believe that the This Is It show got So Big, because that's how Michael Jackson wanted the show to be. He wanted that show to be different from anything out there. Which, as we all know by now, was his style, i.e. BIGGER & BETTER & NEVER SEEN BEFORE!

I remember Kenny Ortega saying one time that Michael was always calling him in the middle of the night with NEW ideas.
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In Michael's own words:
"Elvis didn’t do it. Beatles didn’t do it. We have to be phenomenal. When people leave this show. When people leave my show, I want them to say, ‘I’ve never seen nothing like this in my life. Go Go. I’ve never seen nothing like this. Go. It’s amazing. He’s the greatest entertainer in the world.’ I’m taking that money, a million children, children’s hospital, the biggest in the world, Michael Jackson’s Children’s Hospital. Gonna have a movie theater, game room. Children are depressed. Their mind is depressing them. I want to give them that. I care about them, them angels. God wants me to do it. God wants me to do it. I’m gonna do that, Conrad."

"Don’t have enough hope, no more hope. That’s the next generation that’s gonna save our planet, starting with—we’ll talk about it. United States, Europe, Prague, my babies. They walk around with no mother. They drop them off, they leave – a psychological degradation of that. They reach out to me—please take me with you."

"I want to do that for them."

"I’m gonna do that for them. That will be remembered more than my performances. My performances will be up there helping my children and always be my dream. I love them. I love them because I didn’t have a childhood. I had no childhood. I feel their pain. I feel their hurt. I can deal with it. ‘Heal the World,’ ‘We Are the World,’ ‘Will You Be There,’ ‘The Lost Children.’ These are the songs I’ve written because I hurt, you know, I hurt.”
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Yup, Travis has worked on the Dangerous and HIStory tours, as well as some videos and performances. And Stacy Walker has worked on the HIStory tour.
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Big Apple2 said:
If that's the case, then we are ALL dependent upon "someone" for our life expenses.

And that includes rich folk, who continue to earn money from investments, business, etc. Right down to poor folks (like me), who work an everyday job, take orders from upper management, report to work on time everyday, and perform my duties to the best of my ability - as expected.

Such is life. You work. You get paid. You take care of your living expenses. In effect you become DEPENDENT on that job. You need it and in some cases you cannot survive without it.

On another note: I wonder what Debbie Rowe thinks about Karen testifying that she was jealous of Karen Faye. Ms. Rowe is pretty outspoken, wonder what her response will be, if any.
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Usually you're payed after a first month working. And when you're working the next month still you're payed again.
You get an amount of money which you can spend on whatever you decide doing for the work you've done. You don't have to pay back in the future. You're not like flooded by an ocean of debt. In this case it's harder, much harder than only being an employee. Is it ethical, is it 'business'... I don't know and I don't care... but it certainly puts someone in a modern form of slavery in my opinion!
I think there's a difference between what Michael might have agreed to or felt already forced to agree to (Neverland going down with loans on it bla) than what's just everyday life for most of us. The immense pressure coming with it even more when you have three underaged kids with you, I personally can't even imagine. There's a difference. But well that's certainly not the most valid point in this trial.
 
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Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

^^^^ Maybe there is a reason AEG set it up the way they did, perhaps it will be explained in the trial.
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Michael Jackson kept borrowing and borrowing from A L L his assets. Like anyone who owes a debt, you get a job and pay it back, including the Interest. And speaking of what if's, what if Michael had not gotten mad at Sony and had not borrowed from his partnership in the Beatles Catalog. It was several hundred million dollars Michael Jackson had borrowed. This is why he was mad at Tommy Mottola and blamed Tommy Mottola for "Invincible" not selling well.

Michael Jackson banked on selling albums and Concert tours to be the revenue that kept his Empire running smoothly. The HIStory tour should have been a sign to Michael Jackson that he wasn't making as much money as he had in past ventures. Michael Jackson should've tightened his belt and like most folk, adapted to his new set of financial circumstances.

"This Is It" was the channel for Michael Jackson to see the light at the end of the tunnel, financially speaking. I had guestimated that if Michael had toured for 3 years, he would've been out of debt, including merchandising sales.

That was the avenue in which Michael Jackson would have been solvent, doing the "This Is It," tour for 3 years!
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

LastTear said:
^^^^ Maybe there is a reason AEG set it up the way they did, perhaps it will be explained in the trial.
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Mechi is explaining how a normal job is usually paid, weekly monthly etc., but not how concert or tour contracts are set up. There is a difference and they too can vary. It was explained how it was set up. They probably will go into more detail during the case .. but in a nutshell, If I remember correctly


  • AEG would provide the venue, manage all the aspects surrounding the Tour.
  • MJ would pay production cost (normally a sponsor would like pepsi) but MJ was sponsoring himself
  • AEG would front (loan) michael his expenses for production and personal expenses like his personal Doctor, housing etc.
  • MJ and AEG would share the profits 90% / 10% MJ would get 90% of all profits minus his expenses, from This Is It Tour.
 
Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

^^^^^ thanks, my post was in response to @Mechi post relating it to modern slavery, I meant that perhaps there was a practical reason why it was set up in this manner. Tbh It all sounds reasonable to me when there is no sponsor involved.
 

Choreographer: No signs Jackson was ill in 2009
Associated PressBy ANTHONY McCARTNEY | Associated Press – 2 mins 12 secs ago


LOS ANGELES (AP) — An associate choreographer who worked on Michael Jackson's planned comeback concerts testified Monday that she didn't see any signs that the pop superstar was ill or might die in the final days of his life.

"I just never in a million years thought he would leave us, or pass away," Stacy Walker told jurors hearing a lawsuit filed by Jackson's mother against concert promoter AEG Live LLC. "It just never crossed my mind."

Walker, who is testifying for AEG, said Jackson appeared thinner than he had been in previous years and wore multiple layers of clothes while rehearing for his "This Is It" shows planned for London's O2 arena. She said despite Jackson missing multiple rehearsals, she was convinced based on his performances the last two days of his life that he was ready for the series of shows.

Previous witnesses have testified that Jackson was shivering and appeared unprepared.

Walker said she never saw any of that behavior, although she acknowledged that her job was to work with other dancers and not Jackson directly.

"I wasn't looking for things at the time," she said. "I wish I was."

Walker was the first witness called by AEG in a trial filed by Jackson's mother, Katherine, against the concert promoter. Her suit claims AEG didn't properly investigate the doctor convicted of involuntary manslaughter in Jackson's death and that its executives missed signs that the singer was unprepared for the "This Is It" shows.

AEG denies all wrongdoing, and contends Jackson hid struggles with addiction. Jackson died in June 2009 from an overdose of the anesthetic propofol, which he had been using as a sleep aid.

Walker was called to the witness stand Monday because she is slated to leave the country for work. The trial is expected to last several more weeks.

AEG is expected to call choreographer Travis Payne, who worked with Jackson directly in preparation for the "This Is It" shows, and tour director Kenny Ortega is also expected to testify.

Jurors last week heard from a dancer and also Jackson's longtime makeup artist, who testified that the singer appeared thin and at times unprepared for the concert tour.

Anthony McCartney can be reached at http://twitter.com/mccartneyAP

Please provide source links, when posting news articles -Team MJJC
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Source Added - http://news.yahoo.com/choreographer...NhdANlbnRlcnRhaW5tZW50BHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3
 
* Obviously in AEG-Cross Sankey was asked if family was there trying to involve Michael in other projects. She doesn`know.

But I think AEG didn`t ask this question out of the blue.*
**
*Multi-Quote This Message
*
Best thing ive read in weeks! all these swapping and going back to previous witnesses is sloppy
 
you might want to read the opening statements from transcripts. A lot of new info that wasn't reported by media.
 
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