Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Mechi]

Pro jackson? with letting the child allegations that AEG asked to be in the trial is not pro jackson all the way to me though

You got me wrong, I think. I didn't judge the judge being pro one side.
But you can't take anything as evidence for only one side in a trial. When the interview is valid evidence used by A it should be also valid used by B.
At least that would be my logical thinking?!

 

[bouee]

The only thing I see people agree on pretty much is that Michael was great those last 2 rehearsals. Everything else is like different stories or thoughts on what was going on. It is hard to know who is telling the truth. I don't know what to think to be honest.

A lot of it is due to the witnesses interpretations of facts , and the way they say it. For example Karen and Alif were very scared about June 19th and thought Michael was dying, Travis thought Michael had a flu. But basically they are referring to the same facts.

So far the facts are :
-Michael was thin, it's not clear if he was still losing weight (Michael Bush will know). He was too thin to perform, but his weight was not otherwise a concern.
-He missed just a few rehearsals, early june (from Alif and Travis)
-he was slow to pick up the work, but Travis and Ortega believed he could make it
-June 19th : Michael was not well at all, was better on 23rd and 24th.

----

- The teleprompter : I couldn't help thinking about Nurse Lee warning Michael that he could get memory loss from propofol. I remember she told him he could forget his lines.

- So Kenny found a physical therapist, but Michael was not comfortable with the idea. Anyone knows when Lou Ferrigno started to work for Michael ?

- AEG threatened to pull the plug....So he/they did pressure both Michael and Murray. If we believe Phillips it was not possible to actually "pull the plug". So he/they did that thinking more pressure- huge pressure- would help. Not really suprising given what we heard so far. It doesn't sound good for them.

-interesting interpration of Gongaware's email 'we want to remind him who's paying his salary" did they think at that moment that Murray was not taking enough care of Michael ?

-----

I am just :bugeyed at how hard the Jackson's are working to win this lawsuit. They appear willing to do or say anything. Isn't it a damn shame they didn't extend a little of this effort and energy to Michael... I bet he would have appreciated a little support if it came with no strings attached.

Agree. I would appreciate more truth coming from them (re drug addict story), they are Michael's family, and their witnesses are far too emotional, it will be hard to take them seriously.

But I wanted to point out that AEG is doing the same, if not worse. What shocks me most is blaming Michael the way they do, minimising Murray's role. I understand it's implied by the accusations, I just wish they would do that with a little more tact.

 

[Tygger]

After jurors left, Judge Palazuelos said she sustained plaintiffs objection and will not allow defense to use Dr. Murray's intvw w/ LAPD. In it, Dr. Murray said he was hired by MJ to be paid by AEG. Plaintiffs said it's hearsay and judge agreed.

Agreed. This is the purpose of the trial: was the doctor hired negligently and supervised by the defendants. The defendants can use the interview just not the part about who the doctor felt hired him. The jurors need to decide if the doctor was hired by AEG or not.

Walker did not know if she was an AEG employee or an independent contractor. Payne had more experience on tours with Michael and knew he was employed by AEG. Both witnesses for the defense helped the plaintiffs when cross examined.

 

[qbee]

AEG Trial-Thomas Mesereau (Starting Point, CNN 05.18, 2013.04.30)

http://youtu.be/u9TkBuVKWqs


I wanted to bring this in to get some opinions. What Tom Mez is saying seems backwards to me. From testimony I've heard its the Jackson's witnesses that are bloodying Michael up making him appear as a helpless pathetic drug addict who was unable to perform or even think for himself. and AEG witnesses are stating he had some bad days but for the most part he appeared healthy and showed improvement where they thought he could pull this off. The Jacksons witnesses are saying they felt he was dying and helpless and wouldnt be able to perform. So if he was in this bad of shape according to Jackson witnesses how can they state he would be able to continue performing and making huge amounts of Money. Tom says AEG is making him appear unable .. but I see the opposite .. any one else confused ??

 

[Bubs]

It might have been within the tough love statement, but idk, it was the first time I had heard that someone was told to ignore Michael and not to pander to him. But honestly I am starting to doubt myself now, i'm sure if it happened it will re-surface again.

You didn't imagine it, I read it too. I've being going through my links where did I read it but no luck so far:no:
Karen F posted in her facebook: Kenny told me CM told us to give Michael "tough love".
If I remember right, CM kind of told them not to listen and "spoil" Michael by being nice to him or something similar.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Payne said he noticed that Jackson looked thin but was satisfied with the singer’s response.
“He said, ’I’m getting down to my fighting weight,' which I took to mean that he was preparing for the performances,” Payne testified.

I wonder was Michael trying to lose weight or was it for enegy?
CM was giving some cocktail of medicine to Michael that counter-effected other meds he gave too:no:

He gave ephedrine to Michael and I read the side effect to it:bugeyed
http://www.drugs.com/sfx/ephedrine-side-effects.html

 

[qbee]

I doubt anyone stated not to be nice to Michael . (That isn't what tough love is) we are missing something. Karen stated she was no to listen to him. but maye the wrong choice of words on her part. Maybe not to cater to him or enable him in certain behaviours. but what did she mean? What was Michael saying that she should ignore or not listen or cater too. It's hard understand with that part missing? Maybe it was for her to not to have to be in Michael sight when ever he was performing (like she said he asked) or things of that nature. Did she ever state what it was she was not suppose to be catering to?

 

[bouee]

AEG Trial-Thomas Mesereau (Starting Point, CNN 05.18, 2013.04.30)

http://youtu.be/u9TkBuVKWqs


I wanted to bring this in to get some opinions. What Tom Mez is saying seems backwards to me. From testimony I've heard its the Jackson's witnesses that are bloodying Michael up making him appear as a helpless pathetic drug addict who was unable to perform or even think for himself. and AEG witnesses are stating he had some bad days but for the most part he appeared healthy and showed improvement where they thought he could pull this off. The Jacksons witnesses are saying they felt he was dying and helpless and wouldnt be able to perform. So if he was in this bad of shape according to Jackson witnesses how can they state he would be able to continue performing and making huge amounts of Money. Tom says AEG is making him appear unable .. but I see the opposite .. any one else confused ??

a few things :

-the interview was before testimony started
-it's still very early, we'll see what happens next, but I partially agree with TMEZ, I think AEG is worse with Michael than the Jacksons :

Jacksons: addict at times because of physical pain, stress from allegations, stress from tours.
- Great artist (Alif Sankey didn't paint him as the ultimate drug addict, only Karen did so far) , but obvious problems in june.
- Karen's testimony was to "highlight" whatever she saw during the dangerous tour that Gongaware knew about, that doctors are unthetical around artist (MSG- she saved the concert with the ultra famous New York bagels- dr Forecast), obvious symptoms during TII (she seems to see them in june, like everybody else). Karen is a drama queen, and I agree she hurt Michael's reputation (and hers). She made it sound like he was permanently like this, and I have the impression Panish didn't correct that.
- So if I sum it up : Michael was addicted AT TIMES, was a great artist, had obvious problems every now and then that you could not miss, obvious problems during TII (june), that should have triggered a background search on Murray, but AEG were so worried about themselves and money they did not understand the situation.
- If Michael had not died, Karen would have fed him with bagels and he would have done 260 shows (as you can see i still don't understand that part..), he had other projects (movies , etc..), eventually he would have made 40 billions dollars.


AEG : worse than worst addict : capable to function normally with drugs, concealing it even from his own 45 doctors. They - AEG - had no idea that anything was wrong, Michael didn't show anything. He was so determined in hiding his drug use, that he refused help, to keep getting propofol (physical therapist, june 20th meeting). So ultimately Michael is as responsible as Murray for his own death (refusing to stipulate Murray killed Michael). It was bound to happen, with or without Murray, with or without AEG, Michael would not have lived much longer.

 

[Bubs]

I doubt anyone stated not to be nice to Michael . (That isn't what tough love is) we are missing something. Karen stated she was no to listen to him. but maye the wrong choice of words on her part. Maybe not to cater to him or enable him in certain behaviours. but what did she mean? What was Michael saying that she should ignore or not listen or cater too. It's hard understand with that part missing? Maybe it was for her to not to have to be in Michael sight when ever he was performing (like she said he asked) or things of that nature. Did she ever state what it was she was not suppose to be catering to?

Sorry Qbee, I couldn't remember exact words, and can't even remember where did I read it. Did Karen say something about that she was told not to listen or cater Michael?

 

[bouee]

Sorry Qbee, I couldn't remember exact words, and can't even remember where did I read it. Did Karen say something about that she was told not to listen or cater Michael?

She said something about Michael not being able to chose a jacket. Let me try to find it, & I'll edit this post.

Edit : there it is, not really a jacket ( when I read it I thought she was talking about clothes, but maybe it was about something else):

"Faye said she informed Ortega, Jackson's manager and AEG Live co-CEO Randy Phillips about her concerns about Jackson's health during the preparations for the shows. She said Jackson was frustrated and after a costume fitting days before his death repeatedly asked her, "Why can't I choose?" (AP)"

 

[LastTear]

@Bubs, Phew! I'm not going crazy and imagining things. You might be right, it might have been KF stating the Kenny told her that Murray said to ignore (?) Michael and not to pander to him. I would really like to see the context, I took it to mean Murray was saying Michael was fine and just being dramatic.

@bouee, I may be wrong but I thought it was more relating to his health not his wardrobe.

*****************
To be honest I don't really care who is bad mouthing Michael the most, in order to win they both are, and it doesn't make any of it okay just because today or yesterday or last week one was dragging him more than the other.

 

[Vici]

She said something about Michael not being able to chose a jacket. Let me try to find it, & I'll edit this post.

Edit : there it is, not really a jacket ( when I read it I thought she was talking about clothes, but maybe it was about something else):

"Faye said she informed Ortega, Jackson's manager and AEG Live co-CEO Randy Phillips about her concerns about Jackson's health during the preparations for the shows. She said Jackson was frustrated and after a costume fitting days before his death repeatedly asked her, "Why can't I choose?" (AP)"

Karen has spoken on her FB before that Michael felt he didnt have control over his show. According to Karen, it was AEG that hired the costume designer Zaldy but Michael never wanted him because he didnt liked his clothings so he urged someone to call Michael Lee Bush/Dennis Tompkins to join the team. Maybe it had something to do with that? MJ didnt like what Zaldy was presenting and wanted something else? Im just speculating here.

Travis did testify this was the first tour that MJ was not the sole producer.

 

[qbee]

So what was the big deal about MJ using a teleprompter ??

Prince's teleprompter

 

[Annita]

@bouee, I may be wrong but I thought it was more relating to his health not his wardrobe..

I think it`s related to the concerts.

But I have to say after reading her cross-examanination she made so far I really think she will not be seen as a credible witness.

 

[qbee]

She said something about Michael not being able to chose a jacket. Let me try to find it, & I'll edit this post.

Edit : there it is, not really a jacket ( when I read it I thought she was talking about clothes, but maybe it was about something else):

"Faye said she informed Ortega, Jackson's manager and AEG Live co-CEO Randy Phillips about her concerns about Jackson's health during the preparations for the shows. She said Jackson was frustrated and after a costume fitting days before his death repeatedly asked her, "Why can't I choose?" (AP)"

here are 2 news summaries of what she said - maybe we will get more if we buy her transcript

After a meeting between MJ, Ortega, and Phillips, Faye was told not to follow MJ's instructions anymore. She should show tough love. (ABC7)
She said that after Jackson missed several rehearsals, Phillips told her to ignore the singer's instructions. (AP)

 

[LastTear]

@qbee, thanks, maybe it wasn't CM after all. Sorry if I am confusing everyone.

 

[Virre]

Karen has spoken on her FB before that Michael felt he didnt have control over his show. According to Karen, it was AEG that hired the costume designer Zaldy but Michael never wanted him because he didnt liked his clothings so he urged someone to call Michael Lee Bush/Dennis Tompkins to join the team. Maybe it had something to do with that? MJ didnt like what Zaldy was presenting and wanted something else? Im just speculating here.

Travis did testify this was the first tour that MJ was not the sole producer.

I remember this too from her facebook. She said that Michael couldn´t move like he needed in the outfits Zaldy presented and that he wanted to use Michael Lee Bush as usual. And that he didn´t say anything to Zaldy because he didn´t want to hurt his feelings. That sounds like Michael I must say. And after the costume fitting he was frustrated over what they came to him with and that he wasn´t able to choose. They kind of talked over his head.. I have saved her quotes on my laptop, just need to find them.

 

[ivy]

The only thing I see people agree on pretty much is that Michael was great those last 2 rehearsals. Everything else is like different stories or thoughts on what was going on. It is hard to know who is telling the truth. I don't know what to think to be honest.

this is normal. there's a saying about eyewitnesses. 100 people might see the same thing happening, they will tell 100 different stories. everyone's perception, attention is different. So everyone will tell their own version. THE truth is usually somewhere in between it all.

But I wanted to point out that AEG is doing the same, if not worse. What shocks me most is blaming Michael the way they do, minimising Murray's role. I understand it's implied by the accusations, I just wish they would do that with a little more tact.

Don't be surprised by that. In the verdict forms AEG wanted a line for everyone : Michael, Murray, AEG, Phillips, Gongaware. Jacksons wanted to put Murray and AEG on the same line arguing their responsibility is the one and the same as they are employee & employer.

If Jacksons verdict form request is accepted by the judge and Murray = AEG, then AEG's only logical defense would be blame it all Michael.

 

[Mechi]

Noone can rightfully say Michael was an acute addict! At the time of his death (so most probably also the weeks and months before) there is no proof. The coroners report is very clear in this!

The only evidence for any substance abuse is his more or less healthy conduct at rehearsals?! That honestly could have billions of reasons... insomnia would be a very logical one etc. etc. etc.... what's going on there in court from both sides about the addict stuff is ridiculous to me!

It's pretty clear AEG knew about Michaels FORMER substance addiction because I remember Randy Philips jumping around in interviews after Michaels death telling everybody who wanted to hear it or didn't want to hear it... the insurance would cover overdose... that was already when AEG (in person R. Phillips) started giving Michael that image. Could be I have those interviews still in my archive.







About the 'tough love' thing, can please someone tell me as a non-native english speaker, does it mean 'be strict but loving'? cuz that's how I understood it. KF to me seemed always like an over emotional drama queen who probably made everyone not like that a bit whoooooshy shoooooshy with her way, especially with Michael? How much would she had loved to really have that importance lol that Michaels wives would have been jealous... I'm very sure. Hmmmm he has never married her, I must look deep inside myself who was really jealous there!
BTW KF and her friend Randy J. still owe me 50 bucks from MJsourc time! If someone here could tell her and make her pay back I'd donate it to mjjc for server costs!!!!! mark my word!

 

[ivy]

tough love will be treating someone kinda harshly / strict for their own good in the long run.

such as a parent saying " no sweets until you eat your vegetables", "you can't leave the table until you finish your food" or a parent saying to an addicted teenager/adult kid " I will not give you a single cent money until you get clean" will be examples of tough love.

at the above examples you can see eating vegetables, finishing food, getting clean is for the benefit of the person but the way to get them there is strict / stern. It's called tough love because the idea is you act this harsh way because you love the person and want the best for them.

 

[bouee]

Don't be surprised by that. In the verdict forms AEG wanted a line for everyone : Michael, Murray, AEG, Phillips, Gongaware. Jacksons wanted to put Murray and AEG on the same line arguing their responsibility is the one and the same as they are employee & employer.

If Jacksons verdict form request is accepted by the judge and Murray = AEG, then AEG's only logical defense would be blame it all Michael.

I think it's also due to the nature of the claim, it's difficult for them to attack Murray : the only thing that they could say is that he lied to them, which he certainly did. That woud be admitting they asked questions and were fooled by the guy they didn't supervise correctly, or didn't check out. That could make it even worse for AEG, so they minimise Murray's role and put 100% of the blame on Michael.

It's a double edge sword for AEG. That strategy could be obvious and turn the jury against them.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Don't be surprised by that. In the verdict forms AEG wanted a line for everyone : Michael, Murray, AEG, Phillips, Gongaware.

There isn't a line for murray on the aeg allocation of blame form. They managed to find a line for mrs j though. Bubs and i had a loong discussion about this in the verdict form thread. It's one thing to minimise murray's involvement in mj's death, but another to completely ignore it.

Jacksons wanted to put Murray and AEG on the same line arguing their responsibility is the one and the same as they are employee & employer.

If Jacksons verdict form request is accepted by the judge and Murray = AEG, then AEG's only logical defense would be blame it all Michael.

On the jackson verdict form, jurors only get to the allocation of blame list if they have already found that aeg hired, trained and supervised murray so you can argue it's reasonable for this part of the form to show murray was aeg's responsibility, the juror would already have agreed with that.

Aeg's logical defence would be to prove that they didn't hire, train or supervise murray. The fact that they are completely and ignoring murray's culpability and concentrating solely on mj by showing him to be self-destructive in his drug habits, deceitful in his dealings with doctors and has been abusing prop for decades so that his death has more of an inevitability about it, suggests to me that they are not totally confident in their case of not having any involvement with murray.

 

[bouee]

Aeg's logical defence would be to prove that they didn't hire, train or supervise murray. The fact that they are completely and ignoring murray's culpability and concentrating solely on mj by showing him to be self-destructive in his drug habits, deceitful in his dealings with doctors and has been abusing prop for decades so that his death has more of an inevitability about it, suggests to me that they are not totally confident in their case of not having any involvement with murray.

They can't be confident. The hiring is up for debate, it's not clear, and they did react to what they were seeing, at least in june. Inevitably they asked Murray about those symptoms, and why Michael was not putting on weight, etc... From that point of view, the Jacksons claim "you should have known" , "it was a red flag" makes sense.
They may have been fooled by Murray, I'm willing to believe that, but ithey still can be found liable, in my point of view. They suspected anyone but Murray, it's a bit like missing the elephant in a room, in a way. It's hard to believe.
So far for me, it sounds more like Murray told Phillips, possibly Gongaware too, what they wanted to hear, both were happy and didn't look any further. It was convenient for them that the doctor was on their side.

 

[wendijane]

She said something about Michael not being able to chose a jacket. Let me try to find it, & I'll edit this post.

Edit : there it is, not really a jacket ( when I read it I thought she was talking about clothes, but maybe it was about something else):

"Faye said she informed Ortega, Jackson's manager and AEG Live co-CEO Randy Phillips about her concerns about Jackson's health during the preparations for the shows. She said Jackson was frustrated and after a costume fitting days before his death repeatedly asked her, "Why can't I choose?" (AP)"

"Why cant I choose ..."

Very interesting. Thank you .

 

[MIST]

So what was the big deal about MJ using a teleprompter ??

Prince's teleprompter

I don´t find it strange if Michael didn´t remember lyrics for all the songs he was rehearsing.
He had sang the songs thousands of times but probably not the last years.

I use to say when you are 50 there are so many things in your head ...it can get pretty dusty on the shelves...
By that I mean it´s normal when you are 50 and stressed to forget things.
It happens to me I meet someone and recognize the person but don´t remember her or his name.
Usually I can remember that we´ve been working in the same place but not always which one.
It´s not always easy to converse then.
After a while the dust is gone and I remember who it is.
I know it happens to others too.

 

[Bubs]

@Bubs, Phew! I'm not going crazy and imagining things. You might be right, it might have been KF stating the Kenny told her that Murray said to ignore (?) Michael and not to pander to him. I would really like to see the context, I took it to mean Murray was saying Michael was fine and just being dramatic.

@bouee, I may be wrong but I thought it was more relating to his health not his wardrobe.

*****************
To be honest I don't really care who is bad mouthing Michael the most, in order to win they both are, and it doesn't make any of it okay just because today or yesterday or last week one was dragging him more than the other.

That was my impression too that CM told them MJ being framatic and over reacting.

Qbee posted this:
After a meeting between MJ, Ortega, and Phillips, Faye was told not to follow MJ's instructions anymore. She should show tough love. (ABC7)
She said that after Jackson missed several rehearsals, Phillips told her to ignore the singer's instructions. (AP)

She is lying there. Phillips didn't tell her, she posted in her facebook that Kenny said CM told him to how tough love to Michael.

Muzikfactory has Karen's old facebook posts:
http://muzikfactorytwo.blogspot.ie/2011/09/karen-faye-facebook-comments-about.html

About all sides bad mounthing Michael, I agree
I feel like:

 

[Galactus123]

So what was the big deal about MJ using a teleprompter ??

Prince's teleprompter

And Michael has used that before. I'm 90% sure that I have seen photo from the 30th Anniversary concert at MSG where teleprompter can bee seen in the audience. It was not on the stage. Can't find it right now.

 

[serendipity]

I thought Panish showing a pic of Frank, Ortega, AEG folks at the TII premiere all smiling and saying they look "happy" was such a lame move. I'm glad AEG lawyer showed a pic of the Jacksons all smiling as well, and Panish had to respond with "well, they aren't part of this lawsuit". So lame.

I don't know why are they trying to show Kenny and Frank as uncaring and cold, when they actually did take action and tried to do something. Frank cannot even defend himself now. I hope the jury will see through this.

 

[LastTear]

@bubs, I think that might have been where I saw it, Karen Faye's twitter. AEG have not finished with her yet so maybe we will find out more.

 

[Aquarius]

She said something about Michael not being able to chose a jacket. Let me try to find it, & I'll edit this post.

Edit : there it is, not really a jacket ( when I read it I thought she was talking about clothes, but maybe it was about something else):

"Faye said she informed Ortega, Jackson's manager and AEG Live co-CEO Randy Phillips about her concerns about Jackson's health during the preparations for the shows. She said Jackson was frustrated and after a costume fitting days before his death repeatedly asked her, "Why can't I choose?" (AP)"

Sometimes our minds make connections that not necessarily are true. I think you make the reasonable connection with the jacket because the statement was made after a costume fitting. The "why can't I choose?" can be also related to him wanting Conrad on the tour & Gongaware trying to convince him to hire a doc in England. It's hard to understand what they're saying when we don't have the whole information but so far, I see Michael taking all the heat.

 

[AliCat]

How does Katherine Jackson condone Joe Jackson beating Michael Jackson into submission, vilifying him and making Michael Jackson feel so vulnerable as a child and now Katherine Jackson says AEG Live didn't treat Michael Jackson nicely, that she is suing AEG Live to prove this allegation? Katherine Jackson is being a hypocrite!