Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[AliCat]

When Dr. David Adams, a licensed anesthesiologist, from Las Vegas, did not hear back from Conrad Murray concerning going on the tour, it might have been why the Contract was left unsigned by Michael Jackson.

It may have well been the cornerstone of why Conrad Murray felt threatened by Kenny Ortega, the last weekend of Michael Jackson's life.

The only thing a background check, if done by a private investigator, would have revealed was the size of Conrad Murray's ego when it came to money and loose women.

Conrad Murray was so over competent into fooling everyone, including his patient, Michael Jackson. Why is AEG Live held accountable for this egotistical, overbearing, negligent physician. To think he could do the job alone, Conrad Murray, that of administering propofol, is the crux to this whole problem The fact that Conrad Murray tried to implicate Dr. David Adams, just because he used propofol 4 times on Michael Jackson, for professional reasons, dental work, because Michael Jackson had dental work done in 2008, just shows how scared to death, Michael Jackson was of needles and surgical type stuff. Whether dental work, dermatological procedures or plastic surgery. Even Cherilyn Lee has stated the fear factor Michael Jackson had of all this physical pain he would have to endure, concerning needles.

Then this ends up in tabloid trash, as in Michael Jackson is a junkie looking for a high!

 

[#MJforever57]

the good version would be safety version in which he wanted to get a second person to monitor himself in addition to Murray , and/or he wanted a anesthesiologist administer it and/or he was planning on replacing Murray.

I like the second version better because i really think Michael was trying to get a second person that why Michael wanted Dr. Adams too.

 

[Tygger]

Last Tear, I agree to disagree as well. There is no logic in AEG hiring another to decide on what Michael should eat when a very qualified chef was there. Least you forget the adult Phillips assigned to ensure Michael, another adult, ate. Many illogical decisions were made actually.

Ivy, you stubbornly and incorrectly equate background checks to credit checks solely. Please review background checks and you will see there are several types that were at AEG’s disposal. I see it still has not been grasped that AEG could have done any check available to them and use that information to stall or end employment negotiations.

Last Tear, Ivy, please note the difference between the words official and formality. The plaintiffs' case officially ended with Ortega. It was a formality for Panish to inform the jurors. From Ivy’s summaries:

In addition to testimony, one development this morning was that the plaintiff's rested their case. Attorney Brian Panish didn't want to but Judge Yvette Palazuelos told him she would tell the jury the plaintiff's case was done if he didn't. The judge said it didn't foreclose Panish from calling additional witnesses during his rebuttal case. Plaintiff's resting will allow for argument on an AEG motion to dismiss the case at some point. No word on when those arguments will happen. Panish told the jury that the plaintiff's case officially ended after Kenny Ortega's testimony was done. Judge called it a "formality." (AP) After jury entered the room, plaintiffs attorney Brian Panish announced he has rested their case in chief, subject to conclusion with Ortega

Panish told the jury that the plaintiff's case officially ended after Kenny Ortega's testimony was done. Judge called it a "formality." (AP)

 

[ivy]

Ivy, you stubbornly and incorrectly equate background checks to credit checks solely.

okay I'll spell it out for you. The debts, the triple social security numbers, the unpaid mortgage etc. could be found by a credit check. that's why not only us on this thread but also Jacksons are focusing on credit checks. Remember the argument is Murray's debts and his need for money out him in a position that he was dependent on the money from AEG and was willing to do negligent things. That's why Jacksons own HR expert claimed that after she did the credit check and determined the debts she stopped doing further checks. So if it's not clear to you, Jacksons aren't arguing about all tests, they are talking about a credit check.

what would any other check - such as a criminal background check or a driver license check etc. - would show AEG anything that would make Murray not eligible for hire?

I see it still has not been grasped that AEG could have done any check available to them

only if the reason to do such checks were justified.


and let me repeat this

Attorney Brian Panish didn't want to but Judge Yvette Palazuelos told him she would tell the jury the plaintiff's case was done if he didn't.

It can't get any clearer than that Panish did not want to rest. and this discussion was happening on August 16. AEG had filed their motion of nonsuit on August 9. So one week after Ortega was done, one week after AEG filed the motion to dismiss, Panish was still refusing to rest his case. so don't even try twisting it.

 

[bouee]

Last Tear, I agree to disagree as well. There is no logic in AEG hiring another to decide on what Michael should eat when a very qualified chef was there. Least you forget the adult Phillips assigned to ensure Michael, another adult, ate. Many illogical decisions were made actually.

I thought that was illogical too, but not related to Kai Chase. I agree with Last Tear, a chef is a cook, nutrition is more in the medical field, it's a special training. I'm sure Kai was preparing healthy & good food, but if we assume Michael was tired and losing weight, then a nutritionist's job would be to evaluate precisely what to eat to be more in shape and put on muscular mass. That would probably be something with more protein & vitamins, less sugar and fat. The nutritionnist will pick the type of food, the quantities, the times , decide if Michael needed protein shakes, or what to do if he had a low appetite, etc.

If what you mean is the food person in june, who was not a nutritionnist, the one that was hired to make sure Michael ate, then yes, they could have asked her to do that. Would she have accepted though ? I'm not sure I would, it's kind of disrespectful and treating Michael like a baby when there are other more human & decent ways to do that.

It was illogical to hire a nutritionnist / food person because there was a full time doctor. So Murray failing to take care of this was another sign of his incompetence, or it was beacause they knew he was working at night.

Then it's true that no other personnal employee was involved with AEG- Kai Chase or any other at that time, AEG didn't ask anything from any other personnal employee, none were attending meetings, had contracts or were directly paid by AEG during the rehearsal period in LA.

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger, I don't know whether to laugh or cry - and I'm also not sure which one of us is the most stubborn. Again I disagree, *surprise*, I don't think those sort of decisions were illogical. Kai Chase was not a nutritionist, as I said much further back, there is more to a institutionalist that knowing what is a balanced meal, a nutritionist also looks into allergies, the psychological aspect plus more. Kai Chase cannot do those things.

Plantiffs resting, the judge told the jury that it was a formality, they needed to understand why Panish was telling them at that time. But the Plantiffs did not officially rest until that day they told the jury, also the plantiffs were somewhat pushed into it by the judge.

 

[ivy]

nutrition is more in the medical field, it's a special training.

It was illogical to hire a nutritionnist / food person because there was a full time doctor.

I'm confused. on one hand you say nutrition requires special training and explain it but then expect a cardiologist / internal medicine doctor to be enough for nutrition. Do they even get the special training you mentioned? just because someone is a doctor won't mean they would be knowledgeable in other areas.

 

[bouee]

I'm confused. on one hand you say nutrition requires special training and explain it but then expect a cardiologist / internal medicine doctor to be enough for nutrition. Do they even get the special training you mentioned? just because someone is a doctor won't mean they would be knowledgeable in other areas.

Of course a doctor does- it's a basic in human health. Even nurses do.
food is the root of many health problems.

I have to have a special diet because of health issues- actually it happened twice, I never went to a nutritionnist. My doctor dealt with that. Same thing when some family mebers were going through chemotherapy. Low appetite and inability to eat were successfully dealt with by a family doctor
Nutritionnist are actually less qualified than a doctor, at least here, because they will study only nutrition.
EDIT : I mentionned before I worked with sports teams : they have nutritionists, physios and doctors full time. The doctor was supervising the nutritionnist and the physio, not the other way round. They were french or international sports teams, including USA, and I never saw them work otherwise.

 

[crillon]

AEG is in a civil trial and the plaintiffs only had to show it was more than likely AEG did not perform a background check on the doctor. The plaintiffs instead proved without a shadow of doubt AEG did not perform any form of background check.

Again, what you and others are using and have used for quite some time is hindsight; that a vetting process would predict the doctor killing his patient. You may not understand or may have decided to stubbornly refuse to grasp the concept that AEG could have stalled and/or ended any employment negotiation with the doctor based on whatever they discovered in a background check provided they actually performed one.

Here's the point you continue to ignore. Had AEG done a background check and a credit check and found the multiple SSNs and late mortgage payment, that discovery is not significant enough to stall or end a contract negotiation (not an "employment" negotiation.) There was nothing in Murray's background that would cause AEG or the insurance companies (who have significant liability risk) from signing on with Murray. Remember, at the time Murray was negotiating his contract with Michael/AEG, he was also approved as a doctor in good standing with several insurance companies, whose vetting process is far more rigorous because of their liability risk.

 

[passy001]

I'm confused. on one hand you say nutrition requires special training and explain it but then expect a cardiologist / internal medicine doctor to be enough for nutrition. Do they even get the special training you mentioned? just because someone is a doctor won't mean they would be knowledgeable in other areas.

To add to your comment. a nutritionist is not a qualified health professional. On the other hand, A dietitian would have been more appropriate. a dietitian undergoes significant training and as such is recognized as an expert.

 

[LastTear]

Of course a doctor does- it's a basic in human health. Even nurses do.
food is the root of many health problems.

I have to have a special diet because of health issues- actually it happened twice, I never went to a nutritionnist. My doctor dealt with that. Same thing when some family mebers were going through chemotherapy. Low appetite and inability to eat were successfully dealt with by a family doctor
Nutritionnist are actually less qualified than a doctor, at least here, because they will study only nutrition.

Actually I agree with Ivy, A doctor is of course highly qualified but a true nutritionist is a specialised field.

@passy001 Actually makes an excellent point above. But can we please now not argue that AEG were negligent and uncaring because they were suggesting a nutritionist and not a dietician. LOL

 

[passy001]

A doctor is not an expert in nutrition. it requires a complete set of training. a doctor may have some basic knowledge of good nutritional habits. but he is not an expert. that is why you have dietitians. they are experts in that area.

 

[passy001]

Actually I agree with Ivy, A doctor is of course highly qualified but a true nutritionist is a specialised field.

@passy001 Actually makes an excellent point above. But can we please now not argue that AEG were negligent and uncaring because they were suggesting a nutritionist and not a dietician. LOL

Thanks for the good laugh

 

[crillon]

A doctor is not an expert in nutrition. it requires a complete set of training. a doctor may have some basic knowledge of good nutritional habits. but he is not an expert. that is why you have dietitians. they are experts in that area.

Totally agree and this may be a big difference between our health care system in the US and elsewhere. Nutrition is a specialty and not part of a general or family docs purview.

 

[passy001]

Anybody can be a nutritionist as long as he/she understands the basic nutritional habits. the standards are far lower than that of a dietitian.

 

[bouee]

A doctor is not an expert in nutrition. it requires a complete set of training. a doctor may have some basic knowledge of good nutritional habits. but he is not an expert. that is why you have dietitians. they are experts in that area.

A doctor WILL help you put on muscular mass and advise you on a diet. Actually, according to Gongaware's testimony Murray said he would see Kai Chase and get protein shakes, which he apparently never did.
Gongaware also said he didn't understand why hire a nutritionnist when you have a full time doctor. So in his eyes at least the doctor was qualified to do that. And he's right : adoctor IS qualified to do that.

It's the same as comparing a doctor and a nurse, or a physio. The nurse or the physio will be better trained for the technical stuff, but a doctor understands what they do, and actually tell them what to do, roughly.

 

[crillon]

A doctor WILL help you put on muscular mass and advise you on a diet.

In France maybe, but not in the U.S.

Actually, according to Gongaware's testimony Murray said he would see Kai Chase and get protein shakes, which he apparently never did.
Gongaware also said he didn't understand why hire a nutritionnist when you have a full time doctor. So in his eyes at least the doctor was qualified to do that. And he's right.

You and Gongaware are misinformed--doctors get no nutrition training in medical school. NONE.

 

[passy001]

A doctor WILL help you put on muscular mass and advise you on a diet. Actually, according to Gongaware's testimony Murray said he would see Kai Chase and get protein shakes, which he apparently never did.
Gongaware also said he didn't understand why hire a nutritionnist when you have a full time doctor. So in his eyes at least the doctor was qualified to do that. And he's right.

That's because Gongaware, like many laypersons out there, holds this misconception that a doctor is an expert in nutrition. he is not. it gets worse when people confuse a nutritionist with a dietitian. in fact many don't even know the difference.

also bouee, you can also call yourself a nutritionist. and there is nothing wrong with that. as long as you know basic eating habits that promote good health.

for some reason, I have always thought of Kai Chase as a con artist. She never stroke me as a true expert.

 

[Tygger]

Ivy, Crillon, according to you and others here, there was no negligence on AEG’s part when they performed NO background check whatsoever although a background check would allow AEG to stall or end employment negotiation (contract negotiation was for employment Crillon). Preventing liability is enough reason to perform any check that was at their disposal including a credit check. AEG’s own written policies do not prevent them from performing a background check on a doctor which could have included a credit check. I look forward to repeating this again.

Last Tear, Ivy, you may not understand however, the plaintiffs officially rested with Ortega. It was a formality for Panish to tell the jurors. The case was officially rested whether Panish told the jurors or not. That is why AEG filed their motion the very next day after Ortega testified as is custom. Seems the defense was aware the plaintiffs officially rested after Ortega’s testimony as was the judge. Only the jurors may not have know and now they do. Unfortunately some posters here still do not know. Looking forward to repeating this as well.

Bouee, yes, the doctor had a relationship with AEG as he was not paid with an advance. He was given responsibilities by AEG where someone like Chase or Klein was not.

 

[Bubs]

Gongaware was misinformed as you are--doctors get no nutrition training in medical school. NONE.

You are right. Docs in US can take some training in nutrition while in medical school but it is not compulsory, as far as I know it. Avarage Joe (this case Gonga) might think doctors knows everything but they don't.
For ref: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/16/health/16chen.html?_r=0

 

[bouee]

In France maybe, but not in the U.S.




Gongaware was misinformed as you are--doctors get no training in nutrition in medical school. NONE.

Frankly , a doctor can not tell you what to do when you lack something ? Can not help with hepatitis, diabetes, cholesterol, allergies, malnutrition, dehydration, overweight ? Can not help a cancer patient who can not eat ? An elderly who can not swallow properly and can not eat or drink properly ? An ICU patient who can not eat or drink at all ?

The list is long, food is a basic in healthcare. It's as if you were saying a doctor doesn't study anatomy.

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger At the end of Ortega did Panish stand up and say 'the plantiffs rest'? No, he did not rest at that moment in time, only when the judge pushed him to rest did he rest, the formality part was purely for the jury.

Anthony McCartney ?@mccartneyAP

In addition to testimony, one development this morning was that the plaintiff's rested their case.
Attorney Brian Panish didn't want to
-
... but Judge Yvette Palazuelos told him she would tell the jury the plaintiff's case was done if he didn't.
-
The judge said it didn't foreclose Panish from calling additional witnesses during his rebuttal case.
-
Plaintiff's resting will allow for argument on an AEG motion to dismiss the case at some point.
No word on when those arguments will happen
-
Panish told the jury that the plaintiff's case officially ended after Kenny Ortega's testimony was done.
Judge called it a "formality."
*********

Not sure what it is we don't know.

 

[LastTear]

You are right. Docs in US can take some training in nutrition while in medical school but it is not compulsory, as far as I know it. Avarage Joe (this case Gonga) might think doctors knows everything but they don't.
For ref: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/16/health/16chen.html?_r=0

I do kind of understand Gongaware's frustration - Murray was being paid a lot of money and it's not like he was the one who suggested specialist dietry help.

 

[bouee]

for some reason, I have always thought of Kai Chase as a con artist. She never stroke me as a true expert.

Why ? She's a cook, she didn't pretend to deal with nutrition ?

 

[Bubs]

I do kind of understand Gongaware's frustration - Murray was being paid a lot of money and it's not like he was the one who suggested specialist dietry help.

I cannot blame on Gonga for that, I too thought doctors has knowledge of nutrition etc. I doubt CM took volunteerly any extra courses while in medical, I bet he was busy looking for instruments.

I hope we get something useful out from next witnesseses as this going circles about doc-nutrician- dietician makes my head sore;D

 

[LastTear]

Frankly , a doctor can not tell you what to do when you lack something ? Can not help with hepatitis, diabetes, cholesterol, allergies, malnutrition, dehydration, overweight ? Can not help a cancer patient who can not eat ? An elderly who can not swallow properly and can not eat or drink properly ? An ICU patient who can not eat or drink at all ?

The list is long, food is a basic in healthcare. It's as if you were saying a doctor doesn't study anatomy.

Honestly, a doctor would probably refer you to a specialist.

 

[passy001]

Frankly , a doctor can not tell you what to do when you lack something ? Can not help with hepatitis, diabetes, cholesterol, allergies, malnutrition, dehydration, overweight ? Can not help a cancer patient who can not eat ? An elderly who can not swallow properly and can not eat or drink properly ? An ICU patient who can not eat or drink at all ?

The list is long, food is a basic in healthcare. It's as if you were saying a doctor doesn't study anatomy.

A doctor, alone is a very generic term. medicine is vast just like an ocean. so it's impractical for a doctor to know all aspects of medicine. that's why we have specialization. some specialize in heart care. some specialize in skin care. some specialize in ear, throat and mouth care, some specialize in the stomach and digestion care, the list goes on and on. however in order to specialize they have to become a GP. a GP is pretty much a generalist who is not an expert in any disciplines, but is knowledgeable enough to provide basic health care. for more serious and advanced matters, he'll however refer you to a specialist.

 

[bouee]

Honestly, a doctor would probably refer you to a specialist.

I never saw that neither personnally, in hospitals or with sports teams. It was like I said, more like a doctor-nurse relationship , with the doctor saying "he needs that type of diet" and let the nutritionnist deal with it. Even the nurses could pick it up when there was something wrong on a patients' food tray.
My doctor will tell me "don't eat olive oil, do eat nuts, no beef, no pork, etc.."

Anyway, it's what AEG thought that matters : Gongaware could not explain why a nutritionnist was needed, he ddin' think a nutritionnist or dietician was more qualified.

 

[ivy]

I hope we get something useful out from next witnesseses as this going circles about doc-nutrician- dietician makes my head sore;D

we seem to get stuck on a topic and repeat it. It was background checks just a few days earlier, today's topic is nutrition. Interestingly not many commented on the HR testimony. so I guess it means we do all the possible discussion before the testimony happens. ehehehe

 

[Bubs]

we seem to get stuck on a topic and repeat it. It was background checks just a few days earlier, today's topic is nutrition. Interestingly not many commented on the HR testimony. so I guess it means we do all the possible discussion before the testimony happens. ehehehe

We have it all sorted out before witness steps into court room
AEG and Jackson's would save tons of money if they left the issue in our hand and to us to decide:yes:

Anyways, I thought AEG's HR expert did an excellent job and beat up plaintiffs HR expert by
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