Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[ivy]

they cared enough and gave him sometime , they did it as a favor ? he was not obliged to do anything but appear on stage , they did him no favor at all by demanding he appears to rehearsals he was not bound to participate in . He chose to do so , they did not have any right to expect anything from him regarding rehearsals PERIOD .

not quite true IMO. you are right that he did not have to rehearse but his contract called for a "first class performance". so if he didn't rehearse, didn't know his cues at all etc. and took the stage the first night and the shows were terrible , michael would be in breach of his contract. so why wouldn't it be considered a favor when they were trying to make sure that he would have a first class show? or would you prefer them to say "nah don't rehearse Michael" and then after first show go to him and say " this was terrible, you breached our contract and owe us money"

Tohme was to a large degree a plant by AEG .

no Colony Capital.

How can you blame AEG for Tohme when it was Jermaine who introduced Tohme to Michael?

 

[#MJforever57]

There is no way a MJ concert would taken place without him attending rehearsals. that I can assure you. MJ has always attended rehearsals for all his hows, from the jackson5 all the way to the history tour. the man was rehearsing. it's part of the preparation, it's even more crucial for a visual artist like him.

I agree with you on that Michael would attended rehearsals. The scene in TII Michael was talking to Michael B. it was about a beat in a song Michael said i want them to hear it the way it sound on the record. That was important to Michael. This was going to be Michael last concert. Michael want it to be the best bring that magic to the stage one time for the fans.

 

[Soundmind]

"first class performance"

Was it written in his contract what a first class performance was ? just in case I missed it

at that point they legally could absolutely do nothing if he refused to show up to rehearsals , you know that very very well, so please stop with trying to prove AEG had any right which they willingly abandoned for his sake . What happened was the exact opposite .

 

[Soundmind]

not quite true IMO. you are right that he did not have to rehearse but his contract called for a "first class performance". so if he didn't rehearse, didn't know his cues at all etc. and took the stage the first night and the shows were terrible , michael would be in breach of his contract. so why wouldn't it be considered a favor when they were trying to make sure that he would have a first class show? or would you prefer them to say "nah don't rehearse Michael" and then after first show go to him and say " this was terrible, you breached our contract and owe us money"



no Colony Capital.

How can you blame AEG for Tohme when it was Jermaine who introduced Tohme to Michael?

Tohme , Jermaine Randy , AEG all of them took advantage of him . Jermaine introduced him and he was working for AEG's interests , so what ?

 

[passy001]

Tohme , Jermaine Randy , AEG all of them took advantage of him . Jermaine introduced him and he was working for AEG's interests , so what ?

seems like you're just spamming the thread. AEG took advantage of MJ, so what? it's called capitalism. it's MJ fault if he could not stop people taking advantage of him. he had a choice and responsibility to look after himself.

 

[Soundmind]

seems like you're just spamming the thread. AEG took advantage of MJ, so what? it's called capitalism. it's MJ fault if he could not stop people taking advantage of him. he had a choice and responsibility to look after himself.

Then stop misrepresenting the facts by claiming they were doing him favors all the time . When your arguments get refuted you accuse others of spamming the thread ?

 

[Bonnie Blue]

How can you blame AEG for Tohme when it was Jermaine who introduced Tohme to Michael?

The story up til now was that jermaine introduced thome to mj in 08 as he needed help financing neverland and tohme knew people with money. That was all. The fact that thome suddenly became mj's one and only manager seems to have been put in place by his business contact barrack who with colony capital bought the note on neverland and was suddenly involved in restructuring mj's finances - the main plank of which was to get mj touring again, hence the talks with aeg and a manager to keep him focussed on this goal, something barrack had decided had been lacking previously.

Anyway, could be prince not being sure of dates etc but in his testimony quoted in this thread re those meetings at carolwood between murray and phillips, he was asked about tohme and he said that the relationship with mj went back 3 yrs, and he was instumental in getting a place to stay in vegas at the palm hotel, presumably this was 07. I just thought it surprising as i had thought it was jerms introducing mj to tohme in 08 when neverland was about to be foreclosed.

 

[#MJforever57]

How can a performer for so many years NOT know the difference between NET and GROSS? If MJ did not know details (big factors, rather) like that, he should have--his manager should have explained it. This reminds me of his deal with Bashir where it was a one paragraph contract, no lawyer looked it over, MJ signed. This is really unwise (to say the least) as he then had no control over the final program Bashir presented, and we know what happened. I am not saying the AEG was as devious as Bashir, but MJ had plenty of business experience--enough to know what gross and net meant.

And this brings up a point someone else made about being able to see MJ's behavior more realistically and not gloss over any flaws b/c we love him. No one is perfect, MJ was under great pressures, and not to blame him, but he did make mistakes, as we all do.

I personally, so far at least, believe the following:

MJ returned from Ireland, late 06, in great shape (according to Jack Wishna who talked him into returning for a residency in Vegas).
The family immediately set on him with Leonard Rowe in early 07, all trying to get him to agree to a reunion concert and they went to his home in Vegas to make their case.
Randy crashed the gates and shouted you owe me $$.
Joe showed up.

The neighbors objected to having MJ in the neighborhood, since they thought he was a ped---, and wrote a letter that upset him.

In other words, things went to hell fast. And MJ started going downhill physically and mentally. The bodyguards weren't being paid, his finances were in a mess.

He lost faith in Tohme over the Julien's auction and other things (June Gatlin tape). His business structure--management, etc.--was a mess--he had fired Raymone and Tohme.

The family kept up their pressure through 07 and 08 and 09.
The media printed lies.
MJ tried to cope but with all the stress turned to CM and propofol in May (yes, CM ordered the stuff in April but started staying overnight in early May).

You could be right after the 2005 trial Michael was never the same one problem after another. And he sleep problems was getting worst. Michael needing help and propofol IMO was not the answer.

 

[passy001]

Then stop misrepresenting the facts by claiming they were doing him favors all the time . When your arguments get refuted you accuse others of spamming the thread ?

MJ was not a 5-years old kid. they did him a favor in that they took a risk to invest in him when noone was interested. I mean noone. MJ was about lawsuits and child molestation. that's what his life turned into in the past 10 years before he died. He was a massive risk, which AEG was willing to take. MJ was on a verge of facing a complete financial Apocalypse. and this concert series was somewhat a way out, to fix what many saw as a grossly burdensome task.

 

[bouee]

MJ was not a 5-years old kid. they did him a favor in that they took a risk to invest in him when noone was interested. I mean noone. MJ was about lawsuits and child molestation. that's what his life turned into in the past 10 years before he died. He was a massive risk, which AEG was willing to take. MJ was on a verge of facing a complete financial Apocalypse. and this concert series was somewhat a way out, to fix what many saw as a grossly burdensome task.

what risk did they take ?

 

[passy001]

what risk did they take ?

what do you think?
1)you have an aging man who has not performed in 10 years.
2)you have a aging man who has a history of renegading on contractual agreements.
3) you have a aging man whose popularity was at all time low, inviting negative press almost on a daily basis.
4) you have a aging man whose record sales were shrinking.


as an independent investor, I would be very nervous to bet on someone like that.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

^Well i'm just confused with all these arguments. One minute aeg is being a great example of capitalism in taking advantage of mj, and why not, it's mj's fault for not handling his business better. And the next, apparently, aeg took a massive risk on mj and they're acting like a charity for distressed artists and mj should be grateful. Either aeg did mj a favour, or they exploited him, make your mind up.

 

[bouee]

what do you think?
1)you have an aging man who has not performed in 10 years.
2)you have a aging man who has a history of renegading on contractual agreements.
3) you have a aging man whose popularity was at all time low, inviting negative press almost on a daily basis.
4) you have a aging man whose record sales were shrinking.


as an independent investor, I would be very nervous to bet on someone like that.

They did not bet, all the financial risk was on Michael. I'm not saying that this is good or bad, justified or not, that's how it was. I don't see the risk for AEG.
Their problem was insurance and not anticipating or controlling enough, and that's a situation they contributed to create, and could have managed.

 

[passy001]

^Well i'm just confused with all these arguments. One minute aeg is being a great example of capitalism in taking advantage of mj, and why not, it's mj's fault for not handling his business better. And the next, apparently,

People are acting as if AEG was the nanny of MJ. the point here was to show that the relationship between MJ and AEG was strictly business. and people expecting anything else is just overstretching things.

aeg took a massive risk on mj and they're acting like a charity for distressed artists and mj should be grateful. Either aeg did mj a favour, or they exploited him, make your mind up.

the point was not to portrait AEG as the good Samaritan. they were not. rather to show that despite all the odds against MJ they were willing to take a bet on him where noone else seemed interested.

 

[Soundmind]

^Well i'm just confused with all these arguments. One minute aeg is being a great example of capitalism in taking advantage of mj, and why not, it's mj's fault for not handling his business better. And the next, apparently, aeg took a massive risk on mj and they're acting like a charity for distressed artists and mj should be grateful. Either aeg did mj a favour, or they exploited him, make your mind up.

go figure . lol

 

[Soundmind]

People are acting as if AEG was the nanny of MJ. the point here was to show that the relationship between MJ and AEG was strictly business. and people expecting anything else is just overstretching things.



the point was not to portrait AEG as the good Samaritan. they were not. rather to show that despite all the odds against MJ they were willing to take a bet on him where noone else seemed interested.

who told you ? he was not interested in touring period . They said he approached them , who said that ? Tohme . But then they said MJ was not ready . so why did he approach them if he was not ready ? because he did not .

You are the one claiming they were his nanny ;granting him things as favors ,did things for him no one else would have done when the truth was completely different based on what their own witnesses testified to .

 

[crillon]

yea I mean what's the freaking big deal between $ 7 millions and $ 35 millions ? only $ 28 millions , no big deal give or take a few million :smilerolleyes:

You missed my point or I wasn't clear. All I'm saying is that the $35 million was a set aside for production costs on the books (that was advanced to Michael) and they would spend money against that amount. So, maybe the final bill was $34 million, instead of $35 million. It's a small point.

the point was not to portrait AEG as the good Samaritan. they were not. rather to show that despite all the odds against MJ they were willing to take a bet on him where noone else seemed interested.

Exactly. AEG is a business and they were in it for the money primarily and they were willing to take a calculated risk on Michael (for the reasons mentioned above). I also think they were not as cold-hearted as the other side believes--I just don't see it. They were human beings many of whom liked/respected Michael as an artist, and in some cases, especially those with long histories or who were friends (Ortega) loved him.

I really don't think it's all black-and-white--there's a grey area and that's where the truth lives. imo Whether or not the jury will get to that place remains to be seen.

 

[ivy]

this reminds me of investments.

for example you can invest in a government bond, which has 1-2% return but pretty risk free

or you can invest in stock markets, if successful you can earn high amounts of returns (best example was 16000% return) or you can lose big if stuff goes wrong. That's a high risk high return type of investment

I'm thinking what some people are trying to say is that Michael was high risk, high return type of investment. The high risk part is not performing, not releasing songs, trial, lawsuits etc. but if it was done properly it could have resulted in high returns for everyone.

 

[crillon]

this reminds me of investments.

for example you can invest in a government bond, which has 1-2% return but pretty risk free

or you can invest in stock markets, if successful you can earn high amounts of returns (best example was 16000% return) or you can lose big if stuff goes wrong. That's a high risk high return type of investment

I'm thinking what some people are trying to say is that Michael was high risk, high return type of investment. The high risk part is not performing, not releasing songs, trial, lawsuits etc. but if it was done properly it could have resulted in high returns for everyone.

Exactly. I really think this is the calculated risk AEG took hoping it would be a big success.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

People are acting as if AEG was the nanny of MJ. the point here was to show that the relationship between MJ and AEG was strictly business. and people expecting anything else is just overstretching things.

the point was not to portrait AEG as the good Samaritan. they were not. rather to show that despite all the odds against MJ they were willing to take a bet on him where noone else seemed interested.

Seriously, it's best just to make one argument and stick to it, rather than trying to cover all angles and say contradictory things. If aeg are just being a ruthlessly efficient business in their dealings with mj, then why say as an independent investor you would be nervous of their dealing with mj as according to you he was a busted flush. And actually mj did have other offers in those last years, wishna, steve wynn, all good. It's wrong to say noone was interested in mj except aeg - i don't even think that ridiculously partisan aeg witness, melgrum, said that did he? - so why on earth is this being said on a mj forum? Aeg were wanting mj for 3 yrs, trying to get him to sign up with them - so skip the idea that they were doing mj a big favour. They were ready to pounce as soon as they heard from barrack that mj's financial situation meant he had been advised to go back on tour.

March 4 2009

In late November Randy Phillips, President and CEO of AEG Live, said that the company — which books and runs the O2 — has been chasing Jackson for two years looking for a multi-night engagement. Though no deal was signed at the time, Phillips said AEG has had a “standing offer” to Jackson since 2006 to re-create his landmark Thriller album in its entirety at the O2 but had struggled to nail down a firm deal with the elusive singer.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1606272/michael-jackson-expected-announce-london-concerts.jhtml

Exactly. AEG is a business and they were in it for the money primarily and they were willing to take a calculated risk on Michael (for the reasons mentioned above). I also think they were not as cold-hearted as the other side believes--I just don't see it. They were human beings some of whom liked/respected Michael as an artist, and in some cases, especially those with long histories or who were friends (Ortega) loved him.

For the third time, ortega's relationship with mj is completely irrelevant. He is not an employee of aeg, he is not a defendant in this case, so don't use him as an example of how warm hearted aeg are.

 

[Soundmind]

For the third time, ortega's relationship with mj is completely irrelevant. He is not an employee of aeg, he is not a defendant in this case, so don't use him as an example of how warm hearted aeg are.

Exactly , why do they insist on acting like Ortega was employee of AEG ? He was brought by MJ not AEG .

 

[crillon]

For the third time, ortega's relationship with mj is completely irrelevant. He is not an employee of aeg, he is not a defendant in this case, so don't use him as an example of how warm hearted aeg are.

Exactly , why do they insist on acting like Ortega was employee of AEG ? He was brought by MJ not AEG .

Ortega is not an "employee" of AEG, but he was on contract with AEG and reported to Gongaware & Phillips, so that makes him part of the AEG/TII team. imo

 

[Soundmind]

Ortega is not an "employee" of AEG, but he was on contract with AEG and reported to Gongaware & Phillips, so that makes him part of the AEG/TII team. imo

How desperate

 

[crillon]

Ortega is not an "employee" of AEG, but he was on contract with AEG and reported to Gongaware & Phillips, so that makes him part of the AEG/TII team. imo

How desperate

it doesn't matter--this trial is not about whether or not AEG cared.

 

[crillon]

It's amazing how the problem evolved quickly from Michael's health to Ortega "concerning" Phillips, before the meeting even took place, before he even saw Michael or talked to him. And then he writes back to Branca that "things are not as bad as Kenny said". What about Hougdahl ?
Did he misread those emails and think that it was Ortega losing weight, having chills , generally deteriorating, having trouble using a fork ?


Yes there is testimony to that : Phillips account of the meeting and Ortega's.

I think there's a lot we don't know, like intentions behind the communications. But, I can see Randy Phillips putting a positive spin on things with Branca & others until he knew more. Or, he thought he could get things resolved because Branca was asking whether Michael's problems were drug-related. Management tends to want to maintain the status quo until they have all the facts and this is what Phillips may have been doing. Why else would he downplay it?

 

[passy001]

this reminds me of investments.

for example you can invest in a government bond, which has 1-2% return but pretty risk free

or you can invest in stock markets, if successful you can earn high amounts of returns (best example was 16000% return) or you can lose big if stuff goes wrong. That's a high risk high return type of investment

I'm thinking what some people are trying to say is that Michael was high risk, high return type of investment. The high risk part is not performing, not releasing songs, trial, lawsuits etc. but if it was done properly it could have resulted in high returns for everyone.

I like your analogy very much. everyone knew that MJ was a top performer who could destroy the competition on a good day. but people also knew that MJ had a lot of baggage even by Hollywood standard. His chronic image problems and endless lawsuits made him an undesirable asset.

 

[Soundmind]

He had many offers at the time but he did not want to tour , seriously how many times we have to list the names of the billionairs who were offering him deals ? how many vegas deals he was offered ? MTV said Randy Phillips was chasing him for 2 years, the elusive singer did not agree yet . Stop acting like he was so desperate and AEG saved him .

 

[passy001]

He had many offers at the time but he did not want to tour , seriously how many times we have to list the names of the billionairs who were offering him deals ? how many vegas deals he was offered ? MTV said Randy Phillips was chasing him for 2 years, the elusive singer did not agree yet . Stop acting like he was so desperate and AEG saved him .

I can tell you that AEG did not put a gun on MJ head to force him to tour. MJ made his choice. as you said it yourself he had other offers which he turned down. so he made the choice to go with AEG. that was his choice and should be responsible as such.

 

[jamba]

@Jamba I have never heard this before.

The neighbors objected to having MJ in the neighborhood, since they thought he was a ped---, and wrote a letter that upset him.

LastTear, re the neighbors in Vegas writing a letter re MJ living in their neighborhood, here is one reference:

"Michael Jackson's decision to live near a Las Vegas elementary school has upset some parents.

The former King of Pop, who moved back to Las Vegas late last year with his three children, is living on Palomino Lane, down the street from Wasden Elementary School.

A concerned mother sent several e-mails last week, saying, "Of all the residences he could have purchased ... why one across from an elementary school? I understand he was never convicted of anything ... and can live wherever he wants. ..."

I'm told Wasden's principal has a view of Jackson's home from her office.

He may not be staying long. According to the buzz in the real estate community, he's in escrow involving another property."

http://www.reviewjournal.com/norm-clarke/michael-jackson-living-near-school

There are other people who talked about this incident (the quote above is from a newspaper in Vegas) and how MJ was in tears about it. He was never convicted but the neighbors were acting like he should not be there. I will try and find another reference, but it happened. So sad.

 

[Petrarose]

Crillon I must say your arguments today were realistic, especially about the business relationship between AEG & Michael. You seem to be versed in the way corporations work, and sometimes it is good to get these realistic points of view without the hype of fan emotionality.

I think we tend to forget, maybe because we are fans, that in the Michael & AEG relationship Both needed each other. AEG knew Michel was big so getting him was a major victory for them. Michael needed a good company with money to go into business with so that he could make millions. He found that in AEG. Both parties had to fulfill their end of the agreement for this deal to work successfully.

There seems to be a thinking that AEG forced Micheal to tour by giving him an advance--at least that is what I am getting from several posts. Anyone who thinks Michel did not know what was going on should read his book and see he was making contracts with the big shots at the record company at 17. He was presenting what HE Wanted. AEG witnesses claimed Michael was excited about the deal, was focused during business meetings and had several ideas. This means that during the negotiations, Michel knew what was taking place. He had not gotten loopy by Muarry's treatment for him to not know what was happening at the meetings.

If History did not make money it was due to management, which I thing Gonga mentioned. Also Dangerous led to a cancellation of the tour so naturally that situation would cause a loss in revenue. AEG had nothing to do with those problems.

I don't want to offend but I must say that it is getting a bit amusing in this thread. Every day or 2 days, we repeat the same things: Ivy explains the same things about a million times; gives the same examples about a million times to people who ask her the same questions or provide the same arguments over and over. We have the same people asking the same rhetorical questions everyday, and then, Bubs answers these questions. Then these same people then ask the same questions the next day. Ever so often Cherubim will pop in and say something about multinational corporations. Then I say the same thing over and over, because I see some people making the same statement over and over. Hopefully, some time soon we will get some witnesses who can give us some different testimony so that we will all stop repeating ourselves. I say all this with L.O.V.E.