Latest on MJJC

Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Status
Not open for further replies.
bouee said:
Then why did they issue an indep contractor contract to Murray instead of making a personal advance. OK that was a mistake, maybe.
Why did they include Murray in meetings ?
Why did they pressure Murray (broken vase meeting + Murray storming out of the meeting saying he couldn't handle this ?)
Why did Phillips talk to Murray behind Michael's back (according to Prince, and according to Phillips himself)
Why did he make the decision to support Murray against Ortega before even seeing Michael, after all the info he got that day from Hougdahl, Branca, etc.. ?
Why did Phillips continue to defend Murray after Michael died ?

They got involved, they could have stayed out of this.

To me it doesn't show they cared, they just wanted him to perform, they did not care about him at all. They did the same thing the Jacksons did, the same thing a lot of people did. Try to profit off him, no matter what. Money was getting out of hand, that was their main problem at the time. If that had not been an issue, again, the story maybe would have been different, and they contributed to that situation. They let the costs fly and had no illness insurance at that point.
Click to expand...

I think it all adds up to the same answer--AEG was protecting their investment. That's what corporations do. When a performer who has requested a personal doctor to be with him on tour and pre-tour and has received an advance of $35 million is having significant, troublesome performance issues, you need to check it out. The obvious place to go is to ask the doctor. Some concert promoters, given Michael's history of cancelling concerts, etc., may have pulled the plug at that point. But, they cared enough to give him some time to resolve it and since both Michael and Murray said everything was "just fine" (because, of course, Murray didn't want to tell AEG about the propofol), and the next rehearsal went well, AEG was satisfied. I think they wanted it to work out for themselves and Michael, because they (Gongaware, Ortega) had a history with him.

Did AEG want to make money? YES, they did--that's why they are in business. So, it's not a fair comparison to Michael's family wanting to profit off of him--they should have been the ones to LOVE him--that's what families do, not corporations.
 
crillon said:
I thought they (KO, AEG) were considerate and even compassionate (as much as a corporation can be) toward Michael, wanted to find out what was going on and give him a chance. I think most corporations would NOT have advanced him the $35 million and then when serious performance/medical issues came up, would not have spent a whole lot of time trying to make it all work out.
Click to expand...

Aeg knew via tom barrack that mj was in massive debt and needed to tour to avoid financial calamity, so they advance him $35m for a multi-date tour and have inadequate insurance in place to recoup that money if the tour doesn't go ahead. You might see it as a corp being really generous, i see it as a calculated move to keep mj locked in, mj had the reputation in the industry of being unmotivated to perform any more, so nothing like being driven to financial collapse to keep your motivation high. Phillips says in emails when doubts start getting pervasive as to mj's ability to perform - 'he has to or financial disaster awaits'. After the crisis of 19th when it's clear something is badly wrong with mj, phillips is just intent on doing a financial coming to jesus routine on mj to get him focussed. He couldn't care less about any red flags or warning signs about mj's health and physical wellbeing, his response was just to sideline the one senior guy, ortega, who was adamant that mj needed help, and to pile on the pressure onto mj, and i suspect also onto murray to get mj ready to perform. Agree entirely with bouee and soundmind - this is not how a reasonable company acts.
 
may have pulled the plug at that point. But, they cared enough to give him some time to resolve it and since both Michael and Murray said everything was "just fine"
Click to expand...

which plug are you talking about ? all MJ was bound to do was to appear on stage at the concert .They had no business going to his home asking his doctor to send him to reherase , he was not inbreach of any contract with them . At that stage even if he refused to participate in rehersals they legally could have done absolutely nothing . Without his agreement they would not have been able to cancel it . However, as they did with everything else they exaggerated their position and power taking advantage of ill advice he was recieving from his disloyal managers whether it was Tohme or Frank . Cared enough ? lol
 
Bonnie Blue said:
Aeg knew via tom barrack that mj was in massive debt and needed to tour to avoid financial calamity, so they advance him $35m for a multi-date tour and have inadequate insurance in place to recoup that money if the tour doesn't go ahead. You might see it as a corp being really generous, i see it as a calculated move to keep mj locked in, mj had the reputation in the industry of being unmotivated to perform any more, so nothing like being driven to financial collapse to keep your motivation high. Phillips says in emails when doubts start getting pervasive as to mj's ability to perform - 'he has to or financial disaster awaits'. After the crisis of 19th when it's clear something is badly wrong with mj, phillips is just intent on doing a financial coming to jesus routine on mj to get him focussed. He couldn't care less about any red flags or warning signs about mj's health and physical wellbeing, his response was just to pile on even more pressure onto mj, and i suspect also onto murray to get mj ready to perform. Agree entirely with bouee and soundmind.
Click to expand...

I'm not following the logic here. How is Michael "locked in" with a $35 million advance? The risk was ALL on AEG--they had no insurance coverage to recoup that loss should Michael be unable to perform.

Soundmind said:
which plug are you talking about ? all MJ was bound to do was to appear on stage at the concert .They had no business going to his home asking his doctor to send him to reherase , he was not inbreach of any contract with them . At that stage even if he refused to participate in rehersals they legally could have done absolutely nothing . Without his agreement they would not have been able to cancel it . However, as they did with everything else they exaggerated their position and power taking advantage of ill advice he was recieving from his disloyal managers whether it was Tohme or Frank . Cared enough ? lol
Click to expand...

Pulling the plug=cancelling TII. AEG went to Michael's house to have a meeting as a follow up to Kenny Ortega's email about Michael's troubling symptoms at rehearsal--totally reasonable and appropriate for AEG. I think there was deep concern for Michael's welfare and confusion about why Michael is showing up at rehearsal appearing ill when he has a frikkin doctor (charging a small fortune) taking care of him! That he couldn't perform at rehearsals was a BIG deal, even though the contract didn't specify that he had to--this was always Michael's practice considering the tour's timeframe. The rehearsal issue was about Michael's ability to perform, not his desire to perform at rehearsals. Michael wanted to rehearse; he just could not do it and AEG had every right to know why.
 
Last edited:
LastTear said:
I am at a loss to understand how a fifty year old man who has been in this business all his life could be duped about the bottom line, especially one who is in financial difficulties. We only know how AEG presented the gross figure to Michael, we don't know that he didn't know the bottom line.
Click to expand...



That is sad. AEG trick Michael to get him to sign the contract. AEG should have told Michael the truth but that would be to right.
 
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by LastTear

I am at a loss to understand how a fifty year old man who has been in this business all his life could be duped about the bottom line, especially one who is in financial difficulties. We only know how AEG presented the gross figure to Michael, we don't know that he didn't know the bottom line.
Click to expand...

We know from their emails they did it on purpose to fool him into believing he was making much more than he was going to earn . That was their REAL INTENTION . My point they anticipated the true figures were not going to get them his signature . What you and I believe is irrelevant . They believed he would not , period .As far as I'm concerned he could have been idiot , stupid or mentally unstable , that's not excuse for their manipulative behavior.
 
Last edited:
pminton said:
That is sad. AEG trick Michael to get him to sign the contract. AEG should have told Michael the truth but that would be to right.
Click to expand...

I didn't say that. Do you think Michael wouldn't have somebody, a lawyer, check over the contract? Michael spent his life in this business.
 
crillon said:
I'm not following the logic here. How is Michael "locked in" with a $35 million advance? The risk was ALL on AEG--they had no insurance coverage to recoup that loss should Michael be unable to perform.
Click to expand...



I thought AEG had Michael insured (Lloyd Insurance) After Michael died AEG went to Michael Estate to get the $35 million back is that right?
 
Bonnie Blue said:
Aeg knew via tom barrack that mj was in massive debt and needed to tour to avoid financial calamity, so they advance him $35m for a multi-date tour and have inadequate insurance in place to recoup that money if the tour doesn't go ahead. You might see it as a corp being really generous, i see it as a calculated move to keep mj locked in, mj had the reputation in the industry of being unmotivated to perform any more, so nothing like being driven to financial collapse to keep your motivation high. Phillips says in emails when doubts start getting pervasive as to mj's ability to perform - 'he has to or financial disaster awaits'. After the crisis of 19th when it's clear something is badly wrong with mj, phillips is just intent on doing a financial coming to jesus routine on mj to get him focussed. He couldn't care less about any red flags or warning signs about mj's health and physical wellbeing, his response was just to sideline the one senior guy, ortega, who was adamant that mj needed help, and to pile on the pressure onto mj, and i suspect also onto murray to get mj ready to perform. Agree entirely with bouee and soundmind - this is not how a reasonable company acts.
Click to expand...

If anything this reflects rather poorly on the staff (Tohme Tohme, Raymon Baine) that were on MJ payroll. it shows their utter incompetence. and that's precisely been MJ problem for the past 10 years of his life. he was surrounded by the wrong staff that were simply not fit to look after his interests. had MJ hired even half the staff Madonna and Jay-Z currently have MJ would have never ever gone into financial problems or felt the need to tour again.

It's not AEG fault if they somewhat managed to trick MJ. it's rather his then employees'. they should take the blame. Raymond Baine and Tohme Tohme were paid to look after MJ interests but somehow they negotiated poor deals in MJ's behalf. These two idiots are currently suing the Estate for a combined sum of $95m. you wonder what have they ever done for MJ to even deserve that kind of money?
 
LastTear said:
I didn't say that. Do you think Michael wouldn't have somebody, a lawyer, check over the contract? Michael spent his life in this business.
Click to expand...


Yes he would have someone check it over you are right. Sorry about saying that word. Michael knew the business.
 
LastTear said:
I didn't say that. Do you think Michael wouldn't have somebody, a lawyer, check over the contract? Michael spent his life in this business.
Click to expand...

yeah , he spent his life in this business and instead of generating money he ended up in $ 17 millions in debt on History tour due to bad management , not to mention he needed propofol to sleep to perform. No wonder he was adamant not to tour again , it was not worth it . But here was AEG with the BIG PLAN , you know making 20 to 30 millions were worth it to Michael Jackson , why not ? only in the mind of someone who believes Celin Dion's bigger than MJ :smilerolleyes:
 
crillon said:
I'm not following the logic here. How is Michael "locked in" with a $35 million advance? The risk was ALL on AEG--they had no insurance coverage to recoup that loss should Michael be unable to perform.
Click to expand...

It's randy phillip's logic. The debt was to keep mj on the straight and narrow - mj was responsible for it. It was do or die, as randy wd say to interviewers pre 25 june. That was the main concern for aeg, to make sure mj would go ahead with the tour, randy said in an 08 email, mj 'needs to be controlled as much as possible', and financially was a good way of doing that. It was a huge coup for randy to sign up mj - he was the biggest star in the music world (apart from celine obviously) - and we saw in the emails how he delighted in sticking the fact that aeg had mj to live nation, so let's not make out that aeg were doing a massive risky favour for mj's benefit.
 
Soundmind said:
We know from their emails they did it on purpose to fool him into believing he was making much more than he was going to earn . That was their REAL INTENTION . My point they anticipated the true figures were not going to get them his signature . What you and I believe is irrelevant . They believed he would not , period .As far as I'm concerned he could have been idiot , stupid or mentally unstable , that's not excuse for their manipulative behavior.
Click to expand...

It's a business, they chose to present it in it's best light. If they deceived Michael by saying the gross figure is the net figure then yes I would agree.

Michael would have, must have known to have his people look it all over and give him the bottom line. I cannot believe that given his history in this business that he would just sit there and accept everything on face value, maybe he did, maybe he learnt nothing from all those years in this business.
 
passy001 said:
If anything this reflects rather poorly on the staff (Tohme Tohme, Raymon Baine) that were on MJ payroll. it shows their utter incompetence. and that's precisely been MJ problem for the past 10 years of his life. he was surrounded by the wrong staff that were simply not fit to look after his interests. had MJ hired even half the staff Madonna and Jay-Z currently have MJ would have never ever gone into financial problems or felt the need to tour again.

It's not AEG fault if they somewhat managed to trick MJ. it's rather his then employees'. they should take the blame. Raymond Baine and Tohme Tohme were paid to look after MJ interests but somehow they negotiated poor deals in MJ's behalf. These two idiots are currently suing the Estate for a combined sum of $95m. you wonder what have they ever done for MJ to even deserve that kind of money?
Click to expand...



Unreal. You are right Michael had the wrong ppls around him.
 
Soundmind said:
yeah , he spent his life in this business and instead of generating money he ended up in $ 17 millions in debt on History tour due to bad management , not to mention he needed propofol to sleep to perform. No wonder he was adamant not to tour again , it was not worth it . But here was AEG with the BIG PLAN , you know making 20 to 30 millions were worth it to Michael Jackson , why not ? only in the mind of someone who believes Celin Dion's bigger than MJ :smilerolleyes:
Click to expand...

I didn't see this before I replied to your other post.

I was staggered to learn that touring in the past was not profitable for Michael, so it begs the question whether he actually thought it was feasible that he could make the gross figure (in his pocket) on 50 shows in london.
 
Soundmind said:
yeah , he spent his life in this business and instead of generating money he ended up in $ 17 millions in debt on History tour due to bad management , not to mention he needed propofol to sleep to perform. No wonder he was adamant not to tour again , it was not worth it . But here was AEG with the BIG PLAN , you know making 20 to 30 millions were worth it to Michael Jackson , why not ? only in the mind of someone who believes Celin Dion's bigger than MJ :smilerolleyes:
Click to expand...

I think you should take your anger to those idiots who were representing MJ. AEG should not be blamed for outsmarting MJ in contract negotiations. That's just business. his employees should take the blame including all these so-called entertainment lawyers.
 
crillon said:
I'm not following the logic here. How is Michael "locked in" with a $35 million advance? The risk was ALL on AEG--they had no insurance coverage to recoup that loss should Michael be unable to perform.



Pulling the plug=cancelling TII. AEG went to Michael's house to have a meeting as a follow up to Kenny Ortega's email about Michael's troubling symptoms at rehearsal--totally reasonable and appropriate for AEG. I think there was deep concern for Michael's welfare and confusion about why Michael is showing up at rehearsal appearing ill when he has a frikkin doctor (charging a small fortune) taking care of him! That he couldn't perform at rehearsals was a BIG deal, even though the contract didn't specify that he had to--this was always Michael's practice considering the tour's timeframe. The rehearsal issue was about Michael's ability to perform, not his desire to perform at rehearsals. Michael wanted to rehearse; he just could not do it and AEG had every right to know why.
Click to expand...


This is what you wrote

Some concert promoters, given Michael's history of cancelling concerts, etc., may have pulled the plug at that point. But, they cared enough to give him some time to resolve it
Click to expand...


Did you read what I wrote ? you say they cared enough not to pull the plug ? they were threatening of pulling the plug but was it in their power to do so ? NOOOOO . they cared enough and gave him sometime , they did it as a favor ? he was not obliged to do anything but appear on stage , they did him no favor at all by demanding he appears to rehearsals he was not bound to participate in . He chose to do so , they did not have any right to expect anything from him regarding rehearsals PERIOD .
 
passy001 said:
I think you should take your anger to those idiots who were representing MJ. AEG should not be blamed for outsmarting MJ in contract negotiations. That's just business. his employees should take the blame including all these so-called entertainment lawyers.
Click to expand...

Tohme was to a large degree a plant by AEG .
 
Bonnie Blue said:
It's randy phillip's logic. The debt was to keep mj on the straight and narrow - mj was responsible for it. It was do or die, as randy wd say to interviewers pre 25 june. That was the main concern for aeg, to make sure mj would go ahead with the tour, randy said in an 08 email, mj 'needs to be controlled as much as possible', and financially was a good way of doing that. It was a huge coup for randy to sign up mj - he was the biggest star in the music world (apart from celine obviously) - and we saw in the emails how he delighted in sticking the fact that aeg had mj to live nation, so let's not make out that aeg were doing a massive risky favour for mj's benefit.
Click to expand...

I think this is fantasy thinking and not based on any facts. AEG advanced Michael the $35 million for production costs--critical for the show to be staged--because he didn't have the money to cover it himself (something most artists do). Without covering the production of the show, there is no show.

Michael Jackson was a risk for AEG, given all the baggage of his recent history and unknown risks: he was 50 years old, hadn't toured in 10 years, was reclusive for many of those years and had suffered significant damage to his reputation. Lots of risk there.
 
crillon said:
I'm not following the logic here. How is Michael "locked in" with a $35 million advance? The risk was ALL on AEG--they had no insurance coverage to recoup that loss should Michael be unable to perform.
Click to expand...

The AEG- Michael contract was 10% of the gross revenue to AEG, 90% to Michael. They would have deducted 95% of production costs from his share.
If the shows did not happen, Michael would have had to pay 100% of the production costs.
The sickness insurance was part of Tohme's contract (that was another mistake, or they knew they would have had problems getting one) .
So they did it to put all the risks on Michael. The cost were guaranteed by Michael's assets. That's how they made sure he would perform, though I think Michael agreed to that at first, or at least his manager at the time did (Tohme :( )

AEG's profits would have remained the same whatever the production costs were- except when they extended the number of shows, both Michael's and AEG's profits increased. production costs would not impact their profits that much, only Michael's.

Then they let the cost fly, with no signature. How was that extra amount of money guaranteed by Michael ? I don't know. Tohme was fired, no sickness insurance. They seem to worry about that at the end of may. Tohme was fired at the beginning of may, and we have pressing e amails at the end of june to the insurance broker.

Michael had a number of lawsuits against him : it was not guaranteed they would see all of their money back if the shows had been cancelled.

Given the situation, the only financial problem AEG could have faced is cancellation, having to refund the tickets, and then not getting all their money back for production costs.

They say there was a huge demand, so I don't think postponing the first shows would have impacted them financially.

They were also filming the rehearsals to sell a DVD.
 
crillon said:
I think this is fantasy thinking and not based on any facts. AEG advanced Michael the $35 million for production costs--critical for the show to be staged--because he didn't have the money to cover it himself (something most artists do). Without covering the production of the show, there is no show.

Michael Jackson was a risk for AEG, given all the baggage of his recent history and unknown risks: he was 50 years old, hadn't toured in 10 years, was reclusive for many of those years and had suffered significant damage to his reputation. Lots of risk there.
Click to expand...

You talk too much sense.
 
crillon said:
I think this is fantasy thinking and not based on any facts. AEG advanced Michael the $35 million for production costs--critical for the show to be staged--because he didn't have the money to cover it himself (something most artists do). Without covering the production of the show, there is no show.

Michael Jackson was a risk for AEG, given all the baggage of his recent history and unknown risks: he was 50 years old, hadn't toured in 10 years, was reclusive for many of those years and had suffered significant damage to his reputation. Lots of risk there.
Click to expand...

you do realise they did not advanced a penny as production costs until after the tickets started to sell like "hot cake" as described by them ?
 
Soundmind said:
This is what you wrote




Did you read what I wrote ? you say they cared enough not to pull the plug ? they were threatening of pulling the plug but was it in their power to do so ? NOOOOO . they cared enough and gave him sometime , they did it as a favor ? he was not obliged to do anything but appear on stage , they did him no favor at all by demanding he appears to rehearsals he was not bound to participate in . He chose to do so , they did not have any right to expect anything from him regarding rehearsals PERIOD .
Click to expand...

I'll say it again--AEG had every right to find out why Michael Jackson appeared ill at rehearsal, when he had a doctor taking care of him. If for no other reason than they were concerned about his welfare, they had a right to have that meeting and find out what was going on, while respecting the very private patient/doctor relationship. Due diligence I think covers it.

Why would you think AEG could not "pull the plug" when that's exactly what Kenny Ortega was asking Phillips not to do? If that wasn't a possibility, why any concern about it?
 
AEG had every right to find out why Michael Jackson appeared ill at rehearsal
Click to expand...

Absolutely not , they had no right whatsoever to demand he appear at rehearsals , thus when he did not appear they had absolutely no right whatsoever to go see his doctor to make sure he appeared .

What gave AEG any right in this issue ? Their rights were listed in the contract , where did it state they had the right to ask MJ to appear at rehearsals ?
 
passy001 said:
It's not AEG fault if they somewhat managed to trick MJ. it's rather his then employees'. they should take the blame. Raymond Baine and Tohme Tohme were paid to look after MJ interests but somehow they negotiated poor deals in MJ's behalf. These two idiots are currently suing the Estate for a combined sum of $95m. you wonder what have they ever done for MJ to even deserve that kind of money?
Click to expand...
I think we can scrub raymone out of it as she only had one or 2 quick meetings with aeg in 07/8 when mj wasn't 'physically or psychologically ready'. Tii was all thome and i agree he's in the frame. However i just see huge conflicts of interests between him,barrack and aeg. I can only conclude thome was barrack's choice of manager for mj, and his main purpose was to get mj back on stage, specifically with aeg, barrack's friend's company. There doesn't seem any other reason how as to how thome, who had no experience in managing artists or in the music industry, shd end up as mj's manager. And no, like you, i don't trust thome to be putting mj's interests first, just that he shd get mj back performing again with aeg.
 
Soundmind said:
you do realise they did not advanced a penny as production costs until after the tickets started to sell like "hot cake" as described by them ?
Click to expand...

Yes, the $35 million advance was on paper only, but without it being accounted for on the books, TII could not have been staged. Those expenses were Michael's to cover and sure they had to wait for real revenue to be collected to do the accounting. Big deal.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top