Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Status
Not open for further replies.
Victory22;3877128 said:
It’s a proven fact that neglected and abused children often adore their parents. I have never understood how Michael’s love for his mother translates into Michael’s fans are obligated to love her.

^^So true, but don't worry if you don't understand, since you are not the only one.

Does anyone know how many lawyers AEG has in court for this case? I was wondering why they did not hire some big shot lawyers, like the OJ Dream team. I guess Putnam is the company's lawyer, but is he the best for a case like this? I am not saying he is no good, but are there better lawyers to handle a case like this?
 
^^So true, but don't worry if you don't understand, since you are not the only one.

Does anyone know how many lawyers AEG has in court for this case? I was wondering why they did not hire some big shot lawyers, like the OJ Dream team. I guess Putnam is the company's lawyer, but is he the best for a case like this? I am not saying he is no good, but are there better lawyers to handle a case like this?



I was there in June and i saw 3 maybe there is more.
 
Victory22;3877128 said:
I have never understood how Michael’s love for his mother translates into Michael’s fans are obligated to love her.

That I don't get either. No one is denying Michael loved and adored his mother but I don't see how that means an obligation for the fans to feel the same towards her. I mean for example I adore Anderson Cooper and I don't care at all for his mother who happens to be famous designer. So just because I happen to adore Anderson Cooper , am I required to love his mother too? Am I required to feel exactly same as he does in every matter?


Petrarose;3877161 said:
Does anyone know how many lawyers AEG has in court for this case? I was wondering why they did not hire some big shot lawyers, like the OJ Dream team. I guess Putnam is the company's lawyer, but is he the best for a case like this? I am not saying he is no good, but are there better lawyers to handle a case like this?

I believe AEG has 4 main lawyers : Marvin Putnam, Kathryn Cahan, Jessica Stebbins Bina and Sabrina Strong.

They are a good firm and so is Katherine's lawyers. http://www.omm.com/unitedstates/
 
As far as the 12 step program, it is important if you are going to do the program, to go to the meetings. That's the only way it is designed to work (as far as I know), so MJ doing it 'on his own' is not the way the program works. You are supposed to have a buddy in the group who keeps in touch with you and helps you stay sober (or 'clean'). I realize this would have been hard for MJ due to his fame but maybe it could have been done if he went in disguise? the group is confidential--that is the bedrock principle. Just wish he could have gone to the meetings and had that benefit. The whole group is there to support the person struggling with addiction.

With the addictions, you need a support group--people who understand what you are faced with and trying to overcome. Things like the narcan implant and the 12 step program effort show the MJ knew what he was up against and tried to deal with it--but he needed that support group. He didn't want to go to rehab, but other than attending a group, that was what he needed IMO.

It makes sense with what he was faced with in terms of the pain issues and the charges, that he would get dependent/addicted to prescription meds. Many people are in the same boat. Many people, for instance, get addicted to Ambien for sleep, and the longer you take it, the more addicted you get. You get so you can't sleep w/o it.

MJ's situation was not really atypical. What was atypical was that he was so famous and trying to hide the addiction--maybe he should have made another TV announcement as in 93 and just gone into rehab. In the London 93 rehab, he did have group therapy sessions.
 
Last edited:
Re Taj or TJ's (not sure which one) testimony that MJ did NOT like candy--here is what Margaret Maldonado says in her book:

"He is a sugar junkie, however, and eats candy for an energy fix. Any kind of candy. He likes it all" (41).

'Like Michael, she [LaToya] got the sweets from the Candy Room, which was accessible by a brick walkway outside of the house. Michael had the room built, complete with a soda fountain, and filled it with every type of candy imaginable." (43)

Also Frank C. says in his book that MJ set up a "Candy Counter" in the Cascio home when he visited. Just wonder why Taj and TJ are so misinformed on this when it seems a well-known thing that MJ liked candy. Hmmmm.
 
Ivy funny about you adoring Anderson Cooper. About the Putnam firm. Are the lawyers well-known, like if you say the name Putnam will people immediately recognize in a general way who this guy is. Is he known as a leading trial lawyer?

Jamba why couldn't the doc be his buddy. If Michael is paying him all that money, then maybe he would call Michael to see what is going on or Michel could call him. Then we don't know if Michel had someone like Liz he could call if he had an urge. There is so much we do not know. Also, not everything works only if it is followed by the book. There are people for instance who do not take a 12-step program or who do not follow it to the T who are successful in losing the weight or staying off the drugs. However, I see what you are saying. I see you preferred him making another public statement and going to rehab and group therapy. The thing is was that the best thing for HIM. When he went in rehab before did he stay long, how many group sessions he had, were those successful for him? I know I would rather do everything privately, even if I am not well known. I get more attention, could talk longer, could spill my guts more, could have more privacy & thus feel freer to disclose, could get more individualized therapy.

Here is a personal reference: This woman told me she went to the 12-step for over-eaters. You write these personal statements like a paper about yourself and your eating habits. She did one and gave to the person who was in charge of the sessions. They claimed these were all private and only that one person saw. Days later a member of her group came up and told her how she loved reading what she wrote in her statement. Of course the woman was pissed. She went to the facilitator and had a confrontation with her, because her privacy was breached. The facilitator felt it was no big deal because the woman was also there for the same reason, and no one else read her statement. Of course the person who wrote the story did not feel good about attending the sessions anymore and after some more sessions left. I am not saying things like that happen all the time, but I think Michel was best in a private setting.

About the candy: yeah we talked about that at the time. Didn't one of the kids say Michael did not like candy too? I have to check back and see.
 
Last edited:
It did originate with Oxman who on June 26th morning were on two tv shows (CNN and Fox & Friends) saying he warned Michael would wake up dead (link to video here : http://youtu.be/wCwuhGyFlys ) That being said I'm confused about why are we discussing this. Public's opinion is not relevant especially after his death. We are talking about AEG and what they knew or should have known while Michael was alive.

Ivy, thanks for the clip. I had not seen it. I wrote about AEG and what they knew while Michael was alive in the post you re-quoted. I will re-quote again for clarity.

Ivy, I agree with Soundmind in that after Michael passed, the rumor was it was drug related death and that did not originate with Brian Oxman or any Jackson that I am aware of. If it did indeed originate with Oxman, some in the general public were all to ready to accept that. Michael was seen as an addict by some in the general public while he was alive so it was an unfortunate, albeit somewhat natural assumption on some in the public's part. If this was untrue, why would Phillips refer to an article in his email that addressed Michael’s rumored substance issues saying the author did his "research?" This continues to negate AEG’s defense that Michael’s issues were a secret to them.



you might not agree with them but they already covered it, it was Michael's doctor on Michael's request and Michael's responsibility, they were just advancing the money and the contract wasn't signed / finalized hence weren't executed.

Ivy, you are right, I do not agree with AEG. AEG said they advanced the money with nothing to show for it. Does AEG want to risk just saying it to be enough for a juror to think an advance most likely happened? There are distinct differences between how Klein was treated by AEG and how the doctor was treated by AEG.

If there was no difference in how the two doctors were to be paid, can anyone explain the difference in the relationship between AEG and Klein and AEG and the doctor that killed Michael? Please explain the bill received for services rendered by Klein and the salary rate negotiated for the doctor. Lastly, please explain why a contract was to be executed between the doctor, Michael, and AEG but, not with Klein, Michael and AEG if both doctors were to be paid by advances.

As for the doctor being Michael’s responsibility, again, why does AEG not just simply say Michael implicitly hired the doctor as their defense? Surely if Michael hired the doctor, AEG would not be able to hire the doctor as well because he could only be beholden to one.
 
I wrote this in my blog . If you love the pic as I do click on it for a nice HQ

Being an an addict or drug dependent person doesn't mean the person is always a practicing addict or using and taking drugs. It Just means they have addiction or dependency health issues and can easily relapse back into that behaviour. Addiction is an illness, not a question of ones character.


Michael himself admitted he had a problem with addiction and dependency in 1993 and with the help of his good friend Elizabeth Taylor checked into a rehabilitation center.


Sadly MJ would never be afforded the opportunity to attend a 12 step program group or similar programs to continue therapy and help . (He was too famous to have privacy in doing that) But one of the Drs' testified that Michael was given and following a 12 step program along with his narcan implant and he said it was helping him at that time.


We heard from several Doctors that Michael reached out for help and didn't want to be dependent on these pain medications. We know he wasn't always taking these drugs and was successful many times in getting free from them. but the sad truth is, because of his Great fame he wasn't able to get the proper help that is afforded to so many millions of others who also suffer from addiction or dependency. He was alone in fighting his battles. Michael said sometimes he felt like the loneliest person in this world. I believe he was most of the time, because of his great fame, he was alienated from the world and so many things we take for granted.


Based on evidence presented, Michael wasn't abusing pain medications in the later years of his life and at death his autopsy didn't show any signs of abuse from prescription drugs or any recreational drugs.


Regardless this has NOTHING to do with who he was as a person, as a humanitarian, Great artist and entertainer. With all the trials and tribulation he faced these are indeed awesome accomplishments, which should be awarded, lauded and applauded.


Michael Jackson was a very kind, generous, gentle, genius and artist. The best entertainer to ever grace this planet with with childlike heart of gold to match... and truth be told,
The World at large Loves Michael Jackson and always will.



They drew a Line to shut him out - Heretic , rebel, a thing to flout.
But love and he had the wit to win: He drew a circle and took them In"

Paraphrased From the poem " Outwitted”

~ Edwin Markham

 
Re Taj or TJ's (not sure which one) testimony that MJ did NOT like candy--here is what Margaret Maldonado says in her book:]

Im sure i have seen footage of michael eating candy but i think it was more of bubble gum he liked
 
Ivy funny about you adoring Anderson Cooper. About the Putnam firm. Are the lawyers well-known, like if you say the name Putnam will people immediately recognize in a general way who this guy is. Is he known as a leading trial lawyer?

Jamba why couldn't the doc be his buddy. If Michael is paying him all that money, then maybe he would call Michael to see what is going on or Michel could call him. Then we don't know if Michel had someone like Liz he could call if he had an urge. There is so much we do not know. Also, not everything works only if it is followed by the book. There are people for instance who do not take a 12-step program or who do not follow it to the T who are successful in losing the weight or staying off the drugs. However, I see what you are saying. I see you preferred him making another public statement and going to rehab and group therapy. The thing is was that the best thing for HIM. When he went in rehab before did he stay long, how many group sessions he had, were those successful for him? I know I would rather do everything privately, even if I am not well known. I get more attention, could talk longer, could spill my guts more, could have more privacy & thus feel freer to disclose, could get more individualized therapy.

Here is a personal reference: This woman told me she went to the 12-step for over-eaters. You write these personal statements like a paper about yourself and your eating habits. She did one and gave to the person who was in charge of the sessions. They claimed these were all private and only that one person saw. Days later a member of her group came up and told her how she loved reading what she wrote in her statement. Of course the woman was pissed. She went to the facilitator and had a confrontation with her, because her privacy was breached. The facilitator felt it was no big deal because the woman was also there for the same reason, and no one else read her statement. Of course the person who wrote the story did not feel good about attending the sessions anymore and after some more sessions left. I am not saying things like that happen all the time, but I think Michel was best in a private setting.

About the candy: yeah we talked about that at the time. Didn't one of the kids say Michael did not like candy too? I have to check back and see.

Petra, the buddy (actually it's a 'sponsor') has to be another addict in the 12 step program and in the specific group that the new person attends the meetings of--so the doc and Eliz Taylor would not be able to do that. You need another person to help you do the 12 step--someone who is an experienced person who has been involved in the program for a long time, and most importantly is also an addict/alcoholic/substance abuser. I do think he needed that support group and it would have worked better for him than doing it on his own. In the group, where you meet at least once a week and sometimes more, you get to talk with others who have the same issues and who are also in the 12 step program. Re the person you knew, yes, she was misled, but in the 12 steps, as far as I know, whatever is said in the group is supposed to be confidential, not discussed with others not in the group. I think this program has helped so many people. There are also 12 step support groups for family members of those with addictions issues.

Qbee--you are right--it is an illness. My point to Tygger was that in the 12 steps, you are never "cured"--you are always capable of having a relapse as the underlying issues that led to the addiction in the first place are still there. I can see where going around saying 'I am an alcoholic" etc when you haven't had a drink in years is not something appealing to some, but it is the mindset that recognizes that you are really never in the clear when you have this addictive tendency/potential.

Re the incident where MJ got the multiple demerol shots (or the doc suspected this) why did he fall down the stairs in the first place?? This sounds off to me--why would a healthy, young person fall down the stairs? (This reminds me of when he fell in the shower during the trial too.)
 
Last edited:
Re the incident where MJ got the multiple demerol shots (or the doc suspected this) why did he fall down the stairs in the first place?? This sounds off to me--why would a healthy, young person fall down the stairs? (This reminds me of when he fell in the shower during the trial too.)

I recall (could somebody correct me if I am wrong), Frank Cascio described this incident in his book, he witnessed it. Michael tripped on one of the kid's toys. That's it.
 
Tygger;3877217 said:
Ivy, you are right, I do not agree with AEG. AEG said they advanced the money with nothing to show for it. Does AEG want to risk just saying it to be enough for a juror to think an advance most likely happened? There are distinct differences between how Klein was treated by AEG and how the doctor was treated by AEG.

If there was no difference in how the two doctors were to be paid, can anyone explain the difference in the relationship between AEG and Klein and AEG and the doctor that killed Michael? Please explain the bill received for services rendered by Klein and the salary rate negotiated for the doctor. Lastly, please explain why a contract was to be executed between the doctor, Michael, and AEG but, not with Klein, Michael and AEG if both doctors were to be paid by advances.

As for the doctor being Michael’s responsibility, again, why does AEG not just simply say Michael implicitly hired the doctor as their defense? Surely if Michael hired the doctor, AEG would not be able to hire the doctor as well because he could only be beholden to one.

I think the differences between contract and billing is obvious. Klein was a doctor who was operating his practice and Michael was one of many of his patients. However Murray was going to be an 24/7 on call one patient only personal physician. He was closing down his practices to take a job. So in such scenario both parties would prefer a contract. No doctor would close down their practices to go oversees without a guaranteed job / salary and the hiring party would prefer a guarantee that the doctor would be available to them anytime they want. The contract achieves this.

For me why AEG did the contract is more about Michael's situation. I mentioned this before, his staff was changing a lot, he did not have man power to do his own contracts and it looks like he did not have the money either. Payne testified his contracts for previous tours was with Michael but yet this time it was with AEG. So it provides a basis for why contracts regularly done by Michael's company was this time around done by AEG. Similarly it can also explain why Michael's company was not involved in paying people. For example AEG is paying for Celine Dion's doctor, the only difference being Celine's company being the middle man - meaning AEG paying Celine's company who handles the doctor. As Michael had no properly staffed firm to handle salaries, his firm was removed and AEG was paying everyone directly.

AEG said they advanced the money with nothing to show for it.

wait, what? regardless of how you classify Murray at the end of the day wasn't Michael responsible for repaying 95% or 100% of Murray's salary? I would think such percentages will be enough to establish it was an advance.


As for the doctor being Michael’s responsibility, again, why does AEG not just simply say Michael implicitly hired the doctor as their defense?

isn't it to early to determine what else AEG argue or not? they had only 3 days of testimony yet.
 
I recall (could somebody correct me if I am wrong), Frank Cascio described this incident in his book, he witnessed it. Michael tripped on one of the kid's toys. That's it.

Good--sometimes the answer to something is very simple indeed and not at all mysterious.

Well let's see what other drama awaits for tomorrow in court.
 
Tygger:

Lastly, “once an addict, always an addict” MEANS a relapse is always possible. It does NOT mean the person’s ADDICTION IS ALWAYS ACTIVE!

Jamba:

This means that in the 12 step program you refer to yourself as an addict even when you have been off the substance abuse for some time, even years, you are always going to call yourself an addict. You are never going to say, "I am no longer an addict (alcoholic) but I was addicted last year." Just not the way it works for them--it is a VERY effective program

My point to Tygger was that in the 12 steps, you are never "cured"--you are always capable of having a relapse as the underlying issues that led to the addiction in the first place are still there.

Qbee:

Being an an addict or drug dependent person doesn't mean the person is always a practicing addict or using and taking drugs. It Just means they have addiction or dependency and can easily relapse back into that behaviour.

Jamba, we are all saying the very same thing.

Ivy, Payne was AEG’s independent contractor. The situation with Celine is clearly an advance to her company to pay her doctor. AEG has NO relationship with her doctor. AEG had NO relationship with Klein who was also paid with an advance that Kane handled. Thus, Michael had staff to handle payments! AEG HAD a relationship with the doctor that I detailed in a previous post.

Again: what dictates the difference between the relationship between Michael/AEG/Klein and Michael/AEG/the doctor who killed him? Why did AEG have a relationship with a doctor they were ONLY scheduled to give an advanced monthly payment to? What allowed them to have that relationship?

Whatever percentage Michael would pay to the doctor’s salary after production (I believe it was 95%; never 100%) is not what classifies the payment as an advance.

As for the doctor being Michael’s responsibility, again, why does AEG not just simply say Michael implicitly hired the doctor as their defense?

isn't it to early to determine what else AEG argue or not? they had only 3 days of testimony yet.

It does not appear in their opening statements so I do not expect it. Anything can happen but AEG would be deviating from their opener if they do.
 
Interesting comments by Geraldo Rivera about the 2005 trial and his contacts with MJ during that time. He talks about MJ's addiction to prescription meds as happening during that time, which seems to go along with the drs. testifying about that time period and the demerol addiction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npgCRlodmVc

Tygger, not to nitpick but yes, the addiction is always 'active' in the 12 step approach--once a person develops an addiction, it is always present and 'active' in the sense that it never goes away, which is why you need to keep up the 12 steps for life. It's not just that a relapse is possible, it's that the underlying issues never go away; you need to find another way to deal with them, such as the 12 steps, rather than the substance abuse 'solution.' The addict is attempting to ease the pain--'solving' the underlying issues with something that of course just makes it all incredibly worse. Nevertheless, the alcohol (or whatever substance) is used as a way to cope with those same issues--such as anxiety, anger, fear, sadness, etc.

These underlying issues are always there and so another approach to solving them must take the place of the substance abuse. In fact, one could argue that treating MJ's insomnia with propofol was just switching one substance to be abused for another--in place of oral sleep meds (ambien, lorazepan, etc) an IV med was used, but the underlying issue was not dealt with.

The 12 steps work to remove the exterior substance as a way to solve these underlying internal issues by replacing it with a support system, the 12 steps, group meetings, reading the daily affirmations (which are very wonderful and empowering), and the slogans, easy does it, one day at a time, the Serenity Prayer, etc.
 
Last edited:
Tygger, not to nitpick but yes, the addiction is always 'active' in the 12 step approach--once a person develops an addiction, it is always present and 'active' in the sense that it never goes away, which is why you need to keep up the 12 steps for life. It's not just that a relapse is possible, it's that the underlying issues never go away; you need to find another way to deal with them, such as the 12 steps, rather than the substance abuse 'solution.'

I understand your point Jamba. When I say the addiction is not always active, I mean in the sense as Qbee stated, the person is not a participating addict. Those are the periods of sobriety. It is as if the disease (I do believe addiction is a disease) goes into remission due to the personal choices of the addict during sobriety.

Yes, the addict must work on keeping the disease in remission every single day; thus, once an addict always an addict. I do see the addict and the addiction as separate. It is similar to a person with cancer for example. Cancer victims and survivors are not their disease.
 
Victory22;3877128 said:
It’s a proven fact that neglected and abused children often adore their parents. I have never understood how Michael’s love for his mother translates into Michael’s fans are obligated to love her.

I never understood that mindset either :scratch:
I'm MJ fan but I never shared the same love and admiration for certain people that MJ had for them. I'm well able of find targets to whom I think deserves my love or/and respect, and noone needs to tell me who I should or shouldn't love.
It looks like by default you are supposed to love KJ because MJ loved her. We might as well start loving Wade R, Mark L, Karen F, all members of J fam and so on, regardless of their flaws, only because MJ loved them :bugeyed

Btw, an interesting article from invisible scar blog
http://theinvisiblescar.wordpress.com
 
Last edited:
I quess AEG is going to show Randy talking about numerous "interventions"
- Taunya says from Randy she heard about a number of occasions family has tried to stage interventions. She doesn't know how many interventions were there. She says she only has specific knowledge of Vegas intervention (my note,which was business related "intervention").

What I found interesting that Randy, Janet and Jermaine had filed objections to Taunya's deposition? I would understand that Randy was against her deposition but why Janet and Jermaine? KJ said that she, her alone brought this lawsuit without consulting anyone so what Janet and Jermaine has got to do with anything?

Re Rebbies deposition, she says there were 4 "interventions"
- Rebbie mentions 3 interventions. One at Neverland Ranch, one in New York and one in Las Vegas house. She says there was another one that she wasn't present for.
- Rebbie details the intervention they went at Neverland. She says the security did not want to let them in unannounced and she got out of the car and opened the gates.
- Rebbie says that Michael told them he was okay and he already had a doctor that was helping him with any issues.
- Rebbie says she didn't believe Michael.
- When asked if Michael was upset, Rebbie says even if Michael was upset he wouldn't have showed it.

Btw, Kj said in her testimony that MJ was upset and Rebbie says he didn't show it. So what KJ saw but Rebbie didn't?
As far as I can see their own talk is going to bury this case.
 
Last edited:
Rebbie didn't believe him. Figures, and I think Tayna says that Vegas was no intervention
 
Ivy, I agree with Soundmind in that after Michael passed, the rumor was it was drug related death and that did not originate with Brian Oxman or any Jackson that I am aware of.
Oxman didn't help, but I agree Michael had this reputation before. Over here the news that he had been taken to hospital came at around 9pm or 10pm, on news channels, not on mainstream media. The news of his death came after midnight, at around 1 am. I don't think we saw Oxman in the media. The day after , morning of 26th here, which was still the evening of 25th in CA, my co workers, who are not fans- some of them had not even heard about his death since we started early in the morning-well most of them thought it was an OD.

the part you are missing is the different drugs, demerol versus propofol. let me ask you this way we all knew Michael had issues with pain medicine because he announced it in 1993. With having that information, have you ever assumed that Michael would have issues with other drugs? just because you knew he had used pain medicines, can you reasonably foresee that he would use anesthesia for sleep?

Why is it imortant that AEG knew what drug it was ?

The Jacksons are saying that they knew Michael had had addiction issues , and that Michael's health visibly deteriorated under Murray's care.

So we have Michael losing weight - it was an issue for AEG since they first asked Murray to deal with it, then when he failed to do so/be efficient/or they learned he was working at night, they tried to hire a nutritionnist, then as things were still not better , they hire a "food person".
We have a Michael that goes from "laser focused" to "slow at grabbing the work", appearing sometimes out of it, missing rehearsals, to not even able to use a fork to eat, all of this happening while under Murray's care and in spite of making it clear to Murray that his job was to get Michael to rehearsals (which he also failed to do).

And all of the time, Murray tells them Michael's fine.

And their answer is "we didn't know it was propofol ? "... Sorry, but it's pathetic.

Of course they didn't. If the Jacksons were supposed to show that , there would be no trial. The judge already said that they couldn't be held responsible for the medical aspects of Murray's "treatement". Even if they had known, they would not have understood it.

It's negligent hiring & retaining, supervising. They knew or should have understood that Murray was incompetent. Propofol is a safe drug. But put in the hands of an incompetent doctor.... They should have known that something weird was going on, damaging Michael's health.

Their problem now is those june events that I just described and the fact that they got involved with Murray. It was impossible not to supsect Murray, especially if they suspected Klein. They used Murray instead of running away from him.
They can't blame Murray now , saying "oh the doc lied to us" because it wouldn't fly, the jury - I guess- would be "what , didn't you realise BEFORE knowing it was propofol that Murray was lying to you ?'

That's why we have AEG now not far from defending Murray- minimising what he did- and putting everything on Michael. Good luck with that, because it's not the easiest defense.

as far as I can see, your logic is based on the idea that Michael was doctor shopping and every doctor was there to give drugs. First you are hurting the case with addiction, life expectancy and responsibility. Secondly there were doctors - Metzger and Nurse Lee - refusing to give Propofol to Michael and that goes against reasonable conclusion. So you can see that even if Klein was giving Demerol, even if we assume that Michael was asking every single doctor for more drugs, it doesn't mean the doctors would give it to him. even Katherine Jackson said "just because he asked for it doesn't mean he needs to give it to him". So it's not "doctor in MJ's life = gives improper drugs".

It seems to me that it's going from one extreme to the other. An addict may always relapse, so yes, especially if you are going to hire a doctor on behalf of an ex addict/dependent, and become a third party, you would like to check, just to be sure everything's fine. There's nothing wrong with that, it's a simple precaution.
It would have been a responsible thing to do on AEG's part.
Another example , when you visit certain monuments, or go into certain museums, certain buildings, board a plane, certain boats you have to go though security. Do they suspect every single one person ?
 
Last edited:
Petrarose;3877200 said:
Ivy funny about you adoring Anderson Cooper. About the Putnam firm. Are the lawyers well-known, like if you say the name Putnam will people immediately recognize in a general way who this guy is. Is he known as a leading trial lawyer?

Jamba why couldn't the doc be his buddy. If Michael is paying him all that money, then maybe he would call Michael to see what is going on or Michel could call him. Then we don't know if Michel had someone like Liz he could call if he had an urge. There is so much we do not know. Also, not everything works only if it is followed by the book. There are people for instance who do not take a 12-step program or who do not follow it to the T who are successful in losing the weight or staying off the drugs. However, I see what you are saying. I see you preferred him making another public statement and going to rehab and group therapy. The thing is was that the best thing for HIM. When he went in rehab before did he stay long, how many group sessions he had, were those successful for him? I know I would rather do everything privately, even if I am not well known. I get more attention, could talk longer, could spill my guts more, could have more privacy & thus feel freer to disclose, could get more individualized therapy.

Here is a personal reference: This woman told me she went to the 12-step for over-eaters. You write these personal statements like a paper about yourself and your eating habits. She did one and gave to the person who was in charge of the sessions. They claimed these were all private and only that one person saw. Days later a member of her group came up and told her how she loved reading what she wrote in her statement. Of course the woman was pissed. She went to the facilitator and had a confrontation with her, because her privacy was breached. The facilitator felt it was no big deal because the woman was also there for the same reason, and no one else read her statement. Of course the person who wrote the story did not feel good about attending the sessions anymore and after some more sessions left. I am not saying things like that happen all the time, but I think Michel was best in a private setting.

About the candy: yeah we talked about that at the time. Didn't one of the kids say Michael did not like candy too? I have to check back and see.

yes, it´s so much we don´t know at all. I think he did have someone who helped him through that program. That is what has been said in other places.

And him falling down the stairs. From what I know he was making dance steps and slipped, don´t know if that is the same occasion though. But he has done that once. Dancing in only socks which made him slip.

And again the candy part.. :D He did say in an interview he did on the radio I think, when asked about halloween. He said he loved chocolate and then the host asked something about which chocolate and Michael said milk chocolate, host got happy said he too loves the milk chocolate too.
 
Last edited:
But when you see Michael acting different after leaving Klein&#8217;soffice and when you ask Michael how was he doing and he says he is fine. Andafter the meeting at the house Michael comes in and knocks it out of the parkyou would assume he is over whatever issues he is having. All of would have assumed that don't say theyshould have done this or that now. Andlet us not forget, there are only so many things you can ask a doctor about his treatments. <o:p></o:p>
 
Last edited:
Justthefacts;3877300 said:
But when you see Michael acting different after leaving Klein&#8217;soffice and when you ask Michael how was he doing and he says he is fine. Andafter the meeting at the house Michael comes in and knocks it out of the parkyou would assume he is over whatever issues he is having. All of would have assumed that don't say theyshould have done this or that now. Andlet us not forget, there are only so many things you can ask a doctor about histreatments. <o:p></o:p>

I think Michael said he was fine, because Murray lied to him. The same way as Murray lied to AEG, but AEG can not use that as a defense anymore because it was obvious and they (Phillips) used Murray instead of firing him.
His mail to Ortega "I have a lot of respect for Murray, we check everyone out, he's not biaised doesn't need this gig" shows he was aware of concerns about Murray. He was reassuring Ortega about Murray, not about Michael- the meeting was scheduled after that e mail.

Michael was better on 23rd, that's true, but not well. He was still cold and repeating stuff. On 24th he was already not as well as the 24th, it was declining again.
On the 19th/20th they (Phillips) had enough info to either fire Murray, or ask for a second opinion. Definitely, lying about Murray to convince Ortega not to quit the show was not the right thing to do.
Ortega wanted the situation evaluated, to get to the bottom of it, Phillips only wanted to manipulate Ortega, he had no intention of getting to the bottom of it.
 
Could they even fire Murray? If they could fire him then that would mean they hired him and has that been even proven who hired him?
 
And how can you get to the bottom of something when Michael is saying he is fine? You can't force a doctor to discuss his treatments. Don't forget that. ESP when he knows he is the causing Michael's medical issues with Propofol you think he is going to tell them that?
 
Why is it imortant that AEG knew what drug it was ?

I explained the reasoning for this a million times. I posted close to 30 examples of how knowing one thing in the past doesn't mean it's reasonable to know something else. So AEG as they said in their defense is arguing that even though they knew Demerol issues, there was no way for them to be able to foresee Propofol at home. We don't know if this argument will be successful or not but that's it looks like they will be going with. I get it you don't agree with it but at least I would think you know "why" part.

Their problem now is those june events that I just described and the fact that they got involved with Murray. It was impossible not to supsect Murray, especially if they suspected Klein.

I don't get this logic sorry. Let's say they suspected Klein - and looks like they did with that "he's scaring us" email, why would they also suspect Murray? What's the logic behind that? why can't they suspect Klein and think Murray had nothing to do with it? Didn't even Karen suspected Klein and asked how often Michael went to Klein but did not ask questions about murray? why did Kai Chase who saw Murray spending the night and the oxygen tanks did not suspect something improper going on? and if they suspected murray why would Dileo call him and say "do a blood test"?

I know you say it's impossible to not suspect Murray but there are a lot of people who testified that they did not suspect Murray and there are several non - AEG people who testified the only time they saw Michael off was after Klein and that's what made then suspect Klein.
 
And how can you get to the bottom of something when Michael is saying he is fine? You can't force a doctor to discuss his treatments. Don't forget that. ESP when he knows he is the causing Michael's medical issues with Propofol you think he is going to tell them that?

Could they even fire Murray? If they could fire him then that would mean they hired him and has that been even proven who hired him?

Re fire Murray : did Phillips even try ? Phillips did think about firing Karen, Gongaware accepted to fire Grace- a personnal employee. Did Phillips try to contact Kathy Jorrie to find out about Murray's contract ? Did he ask her to put it on hold while he was "investigating" the situation ? AEG had not signed Murray's contract, it was still time to pull out.

Re get to the bottom of it : Phillips did try, before the meeting. But the info he got, from Hougdahl, Branca and the lawyer- I forget his name- who had Klein's invoice were all confirming there was something to worry about. He decided before the meeting- when he sent that mail to Ortega that Murray was a fine a doctor. That is, before even talking to Michael.

No he would not have had any further info from Murray, that's clear. But at the time, the info he had was enough to get him to do something else. He made a choice, and not the right one. That's their biggest problem now in this trial, IMO.
 
And how can you fire someone wwhen the person who needs to sign the contract to hire him has not done it yet?
 
good post bouee... they should've realized that Michael's health started to deterioriate upon Murray's treatments.. Michael wasn't getting better he was getting worse. Losing weight drastically and Murray kept saying that MJ was fine. That should've rang a bell that he was incompetent, nuts or both.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top