Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Justthefacts]

You said he was a plant for AEG. And I want to know what proof you have to say such a thing. Nothing about him being a great or bad manager. That is just a heck of a thing to say about someone

 

[bouee]

Michael needed AEG not the other way around

Yes at the beginning. After the costs went up, and they let that happen without worrying too much about it, and Michael appeared to be not well, then AEG needed Michael on stage no matter what.

One of the big mistakes was leaving the insurance to Tohme, they should have taken care of that themselves, in january, when they signed the contract, to be sure to have one. That's one of the way they used Tohme.

 

[passy001]

Absolutely not , they had no right whatsoever to demand he appear at rehearsals , thus when he did not appear they had absolutely no right whatsoever to go see his doctor to make sure he appeared .

What gave AEG any right in this issue ? Their rights were listed in the contract , where did it state they had the right to ask MJ to appear at rehearsals ?

Explain to me how this show would have proceeded with MJ not attending rehearsals. Artists are the very reason rehearsals take place. their input and presence are paramount to a successful show. it;s not something that happens over the phone. that;s not the way it works. in that respect AEG had every right to demand MJ to at least attend some rehearsals as the deadline was getting closer. even more so as MJ was feeding ideas that could not be executed without his input.

 

[Soundmind]

Yes, the $35 million advance was on paper only, but without it being accounted for on the books, TII could not have been staged. Those expenses were Michael's to cover and sure they had to wait for real revenue to be collected to do the accounting. Big deal.

WRONG , they only dedicated 7 millions to production costs on paper, later increased it . They collected it , the concerts were sold out within 4 hours .

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Michael Jackson was a risk for AEG, given all the baggage of his recent history and unknown risks: he was 50 years old, hadn't toured in 10 years, was reclusive for many of those years and had suffered significant damage to his reputation. Lots of risk there.

I don't know what you're arguing. You're saying mj is a big risk and you're also saying aeg advanced him £35m (you do know that only a fraction of that was production costs essential to putting on a show), so are aeg stupid or what?

 

[crillon]

Absolutely not , they had no right whatsoever to demand he appear at rehearsals , thus when he did not appear they had absolutely no right whatsoever to go see his doctor to make sure he appeared .

What gave AEG any right in this issue ? Their rights were listed in the contract , where did it state they had the right to ask MJ to appear at rehearsals ?

Well, see, this is where the care and concern come in. If AEG didn't care about Michael's symptoms at rehearsal, they might have ignored it and just let it all play out. Sink or swim. But, they did care by evidence of Ortega's heartfelt email and followed up to see how they could help Maybe they were being "protective" of Michael (given Klein's & Murray's involvement) and curious about whether or not TII would actually happen given this troublesome turn of events. I think AEG acted reasonably, appropriately and, yes, even maybe compassionately in meeting with those primarily involved in MJ's care.

 

[jamba]

I understand your point Jamba. When I say the addiction is not always active, I mean in the sense as Qbee stated, the person is not a participating addict. Those are the periods of sobriety. It is as if the disease (I do believe addiction is a disease) goes into remission due to the personal choices of the addict during sobriety.

Yes, the addict must work on keeping the disease in remission every single day; thus, once an addict always an addict. I do see the addict and the addiction as separate. It is similar to a person with cancer for example. Cancer victims and survivors are not their disease.

From what I read re the research, addiction actually makes changes in the brain--the chemistry and the neural pathways, so that is why it is practically a permanent situation, sadly--however, there is hope that with big changes in behavior, diet, thinking, etc., the neural pathways can be reset--but this can take many years of sobriety and the changes mentioned. It's a lot of work.

 

[Soundmind]

Explain to me how this show would have proceeded with MJ not attending rehearsals. Artists are the very reason rehearsals take place. their input and presence are paramount to a successful show. it;s not something that happens over the phone. that;s not the way it works. in that respect AEG had every right to demand MJ to at least attend some rehearsals as the deadline was getting closer.

Nope, it's about people AROUND the artist per testimonies from experts in the case . We heard Enrique Iglesias did not participate in any rehearsals . so what ?

Don't divert the conversation from its purpose . crillon said they made him a favor by not pulling the plug on him , they were kind and understanding enough to give him more time , all of that was not true at all . Again he was only bound by what was mentioned in the contract he signed , nothing else nothing more .

 

[passy001]

He was a great manager, he secured great deals for him , does that make you feel good ?

so because he negotiated poor deals on behalf of MJ, he's therefore an AEG plant? what kind of logic is that?

 

[Soundmind]

Well, see, this is where the care and concern come in. If AEG didn't care about Michael's symptoms at rehearsal, they might have ignored it and just let it all play out. Sink or swim. But, they did care by evidence of Ortega's heartfelt email and followed up to see how they could help Maybe they were being "protective" of Michael (given Klein's & Murray's involvement) and curious about whether or not TII would actually happen given this troublesome turn of events. I think AEG acted reasonably, appropriately and, yes, even maybe compassionately in meeting with those primarily involved in MJ's care.

Like Ortega was theri employee :doh: they basically told him to shut the **** and mind his own business because unlike them he cared

 

[crillon]

I don't know what you're arguing. You're saying mj is a big risk and you're also saying aeg advanced him £35m (you do know that only a fraction of that was production costs essential to putting on a show), so are aeg stupid or what?

Clearly, AEG made a calculated risk to move ahead. Once they committed to a concert with Michael, they were going to do everything to make it a success=advancing the $35 million to cover production costs.

 

[crillon]

Like Ortega was theri employee :doh: they basically told him to shut the **** and mind his own business because unlike them he cared

Oh, c'mon. They took Kenny's email seriously--they didn't ignore him or the situation.

WRONG , they only dedicated 7 millions to production costs on paper, later increased it . They collected it , the concerts were sold out within 4 hours .

Why are you reading anything into this? It's just an accounting issue. $35 million was a set aside for these costs and that's what the FINAL total would have been, give or take a few million.

 

[#MJforever57]

Insurance policy was pending a final medical examination in London.

That right i forgot you are right.

 

[bouee]

But, they did care by evidence of Ortega's heartfelt email and followed up to see how they could help;) Maybe they were being "protective" of Michael (given Klein's & Murray's involvement) and curious about whether or not TII would actually happen given this troublesome turn of events. I think AEG acted reasonably, appropriately and, yes, even maybe compassionately in meeting with those primarily involved in MJ's care.

:bugeyed: to see how they could help ? To see how the show could go on , if you consider that help. Phillips had not even seen or talked to Michael when he decided to write to Ortega that Murray was a great doctor and that Michael was fine.
He was dealing with Ortega, he thought Ortega could quit.
he really did not care at all about Michael at that moment, or only about his finances.

Oh, c'mon. They took Kenny's email seriously--they didn't ignore him or the situation..

Really ? what about Hougdahl and Branca ? Did he take their e mails seriously ? It was not only Kenny.

 

[passy001]

Nope, it's about people AROUND the artist per testimonies from experts in the case . We heard Enrique Iglesias did not participate in any rehearsals . so what ?

Don't divert the conversation from its purpose . crillon said they made him a favor by not pulling the plug on him , they were kind and understanding enough to give him more time , all of that was not true at all . Again he was only bound by what was mentioned in the contract he signed , nothing else nothing more .

There is no way a MJ concert would taken place without him attending rehearsals. that I can assure you. MJ has always attended rehearsals for all his hows, from the jackson5 all the way to the history tour. the man was rehearsing. it's part of the preparation, it's even more crucial for a visual artist like him.

 

[Soundmind]

Oh, c'mon. They took Kenny's email seriously--they didn't ignore him or the situation.

no they ignored it . they were there to tell MJ he needed to appear to rehearse which was not their right . What Ortega said was dismissed . The meeting became about attending rehearsals

 

[Soundmind]

You said he was a plant for AEG. And I want to know what proof you have to say such a thing. Nothing about him being a great or bad manager. That is just a heck of a thing to say about someone

Bonnie blue :

I think we can scrub raymone out of it as she only had one or 2 quick meetings with aeg in 07/8 when mj wasn't 'physically or psychologically ready'. Tii was all thome and i agree he's in the frame. However i just see huge conflicts of interests between him,barrack and aeg. I can only conclude thome was barrack's choice of manager for mj, and his main purpose was to get mj back on stage, specifically with aeg, barrack's friend's company. There doesn't seem any other reason how as to how thome, who had no experience in managing artists or in the music industry, shd end up as mj's manager. And no, like you, i don't trust thome to be putting mj's interests first, just that he shd get mj back performing again with aeg.

 

[Soundmind]

There is no way a MJ concert would taken place without him attending rehearsals. that I can assure you. MJ has always attended rehearsals for all his hows, from the jackson5 all the way to the history tour. the man was rehearsing. it's part of the preparation, it's even more crucial for a visual artist like him.

Of course I don't believe that MJ could not have done a concert without rehearsal , it would not have been the greatest show , but why NO WAY ?



The point is was he legally bound to do any of that ? NOPE .

 

[passy001]

Bonnie blue :

Assuming he was a plant, whose fault was it? AEG or MJ. MJ should have done background check before hiring. and clearly did not. again his lawyers and staff failed him. so should AEG take the blame here? at this rate I expect you to blame AEG for cancer.

 

[LastTear]

It wasn't written that Michael had to rehearse, but Kenny needed him to - am I getting this wrong, do people believe that the pressure to rehearse lead to the propofol?

 

[crillon]

:bugeyed: to see how they could help ? To see how the show could go on , if you consider that help. Phillips had not even seen or talked to Michael when he decided to write to Ortega that Murray was a great doctor and that Michael was fine.
He was dealing with Ortega, he thought Ortega could quit.
he really did not care at all about Michael at that moment, or only about his finances.



Really ? what about Hougdahl and Branca ? Did he take their e mails seriously ? It was not only Kenny.

I was being facetious--there's no emoticon for that. But, my point still stands. Had AEG not followed up on Kenny's email, everyone would be saying--see, they didn't care about Michael at all. Phillips testified they were concerned and rightly they should be when a performer shows up and has something serious going on--both physical and psychological. The only reasonable thing to do is to find out what's going on. That's what AEG did and I think there was some care/concern involved along with the business objectives.

no they ignored it . they were there to tell MJ he needed to appear to rehearse which was not their right . What Ortega said was dismissed . The meeting became about attending rehearsals

That's not the only reason they were there. Where's the testimony to support this?

 

[Soundmind]

Oh, c'mon. They took Kenny's email seriously--they didn't ignore him or the situation.



Why are you reading anything into this? It's just an accounting issue. $35 million was a set aside for these costs and that's what the FINAL total would have been, give or take a few million.

yea I mean what's the freaking big deal between $ 7 millions and $ 35 millions ? only $ 28 millions , no big deal give or take a few million :smilerolleyes:

 

[passy001]

Of course I don't believe that MJ could not have done a concert without rehearsal , it would not have been the greatest show , but why NO WAY ?



The point is was he legally bound to do any of that ? NOPE .

Wrong answer. The point here is his presence was required to ensure a very good execution of his vision about the show. after all it was his show and his alone.

 

[jamba]

You have to remember though that even Ortega said that on the 19th MJ got better as he ate and calmed down--Ortega testified he became less rambling, paranoid and chilled. So even on the 19th, it wasn't like he came in a basketcase and left the same basketcase. No, he improved as the evening passed and was much better when he left than when he arrived.

 

[bouee]

I was being facetious--there's no emoticon for that. But, my point still stands. Had AEG not followed up on Kenny's email, everyone would be saying--see, they didn't care about Michael at all. Phillips testified they were concerned and rightly they should be when a performer shows up and has something serious going on--both physical and psychological. The only reasonable thing to do is to find out what's going on. That's what AEG did and I think there was some care/concern involved along with the business objectives.



That's not the only reason they were there. Where's the testimony to support this?

Phillips did try to find out. That's how he got e mails from Hougdahl and Branca confirming something had been seriously wrong for some time. There were already problems before that, it was not just something that happened once , as Putnam puts it.

It's amazing how the problem evolved quickly from Michael's health to Ortega "concerning" Phillips, before the meeting even took place, before he even saw Michael or talked to him. And then he writes back to Branca that "things are not as bad as Kenny said". What about Hougdahl ?
Did he misread those emails and think that it was Ortega losing weight, having chills , generally deteriorating, having trouble using a fork ?


Yes there is testimony to that : Phillips account of the meeting and Ortega's.

 

[bouee]

It wasn't written that Michael had to rehearse, but Kenny needed him to - am I getting this wrong, do people believe that the pressure to rehearse lead to the propofol?

According to Metzger (during CM trial), Michael mentionned the number of shows when he asked for something to help him sleep. He said he was worried about doing 50 shows.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

[

It's amazing how the problem evolved quickly from Michael's health to Ortega "concerning" Phillips, before the meeting even took place, before he even saw Michael or talked to him. And then he writes back to Branca that "things are not as bad as Kenny said". What about Hougdahl ?
Did he misread those emails and think that it was Ortega losing weight, having chills , generally deteriorating, having trouble using a fork ?

Incredible that the meeting held after all those trouble at the front emails that showed real crisis in tii with mj's physical and mental state from an array of people, should have instead been focussed on dealing with ortega and basically telling him to butt out and not play doctor. To all those who say that how on earth could anyone predict that murray was a problem pre 25 june, well ortega clearly had him down as a reason for concern, so much so that phillips had to lie to him and tell him that murray had been checked out by aeg and his financials background meant he was an ethical and unbiassed doctor. If someone's not well and been declining for weeks, it's not rocket science to work out that someone's fulltime doctor might be someone to look a little more closely at - ortega managed that big leap in thinking.

@crillon. Just in case you missed soundmind's post, you saying ortega showed compassion which i totally agree with, is irrelevant re aeg as he's not an aeg employee or a defendant in this case.

 

[jamba]

We know from their emails they did it on purpose to fool him into believing he was making much more than he was going to earn . That was their REAL INTENTION . My point they anticipated the true figures were not going to get them his signature . What you and I believe is irrelevant . They believed he would not , period .As far as I'm concerned he could have been idiot , stupid or mentally unstable , that's not excuse for their manipulative behavior.

How can a performer for so many years NOT know the difference between NET and GROSS? If MJ did not know details (big factors, rather) like that, he should have--his manager should have explained it. This reminds me of his deal with Bashir where it was a one paragraph contract, no lawyer looked it over, MJ signed. This is really unwise (to say the least) as he then had no control over the final program Bashir presented, and we know what happened. I am not saying the AEG was as devious as Bashir, but MJ had plenty of business experience--enough to know what gross and net meant.

And this brings up a point someone else made about being able to see MJ's behavior more realistically and not gloss over any flaws b/c we love him. No one is perfect, MJ was under great pressures, and not to blame him, but he did make mistakes, as we all do.

I personally, so far at least, believe the following:

MJ returned from Ireland, late 06, in great shape (according to Jack Wishna who talked him into returning for a residency in Vegas).
The family immediately set on him with Leonard Rowe in early 07, all trying to get him to agree to a reunion concert and they went to his home in Vegas to make their case.
Randy crashed the gates and shouted you owe me $$.
Joe showed up.

The neighbors objected to having MJ in the neighborhood, since they thought he was a ped---, and wrote a letter that upset him.

In other words, things went to hell fast. And MJ started going downhill physically and mentally. The bodyguards weren't being paid, his finances were in a mess.

He lost faith in Tohme over the Julien's auction and other things (June Gatlin tape). His business structure--management, etc.--was a mess--he had fired Raymone and Tohme.

The family kept up their pressure through 07 and 08 and 09.
The media printed lies.
MJ tried to cope but with all the stress turned to CM and propofol in May (yes, CM ordered the stuff in April but started staying overnight in early May).

 

[LastTear]

According to Metzger (during CM trial), Michael mentionned the number of shows when he asked for something to help him sleep. He said he was worried about doing 50 shows.

Yes I remember that and most likely that is true - I don't believe Michael was under undue pressure to rehearse.

@Jamba I have never heard this before.

The neighbors objected to having MJ in the neighborhood, since they thought he was a ped---, and wrote a letter that upset him.

 

[#MJforever57]

no they ignored it . they were there to tell MJ he needed to appear to rehearse which was not their right . What Ortega said was dismissed . The meeting became about attending rehearsals

That what i thought the meeting was going to be about Kenny concern about Michael health at rehearsal not for Michael to attend rehearsals. Something happen that night i don't know what it was but everyting was back to normal the next day.

It like what Kenny said was ignored.