Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[bouee]

and what did you have to show you he was a negligent doctor? Licensed in 4 states, multiple clinics, 2 warnings for not returning a phone call and not updating records. What tells you that he was an incompetent doctor?




okay you were worried, you might have even though "he could not handle this, he would never be able to do the concerts", you might even thought "this is going to be a disaster" or "he would collapse the first night on stage". but would you think "the doctor will overdose him at night in his home" or even more simply would you think "the doctor will harm or kill him" ?

that's the part of what would a reasonable person would conclude or foresee. For example one the case examples I posted was a man who sexually assaulted a co worker. he had a record of indecent exposure at a city park 6 years ago- which means he showed his penis at the park. That was a nonviolent act. A detective and the court agreed that it would be a stretch to predict "a man who showed his penis 6 years ago would violently and sexually assault a woman in the future".

Re bolded : Yes, it was obvious Murray WAS harming him & lying about it. It was clearly obvious for Phillips at least. It was a clear risk, he should have either fired Murray, at the very least ask for a second opinion.

 

[ivy]

I have ot say this last interaction between Prince and Panish about "mean depositon" seems realy rehearsed.

After Prince was deposed the first day and before Paris's deposition was supposed to happen, Jackson lawyers went to court and claimed AEG lawyer behaved aggressively and in a manner to agitate Prince. TJ signed a declaration as a guardian saying he believed Prince was treated inappropriately. AEG lawyers denied it, and gave court a copy of the deposition. Paris's deposition for the first day happened at the court house jury room so that the judge can intervene if needed.

It seems they went back to those claims and Jackson lawyers had to admit that AEG lawyers weren't being mean to Prince and Paris.

That being said 4 or 5 hours of deposition and how many pages etc. seems to be highly irrelevant to the issue at hand. Everyone had been deposed for hours to days, Karen Faye was deposed for 5-6 days so what?

 

[ivy]

Re bolded : Yes, it was obvious Murray WAS harming him & lying about it. It was clearly obvious for Phillips at least. It was a clear risk, he should have either fired Murray, at the very least ask for a second opinion.

How was it "clearly obvious" for Phillips who thought and wrote he was gaining more respect for Murray and though Kenny was making it sound worse?

If anything Phillips was lied and conned by Murray. He left his conversations / meeting with believing Murray not suspecting him.

At the end of the day, we really do not see anyone being able to think "doctor would harm or kill Michael". So is it reasonable to foresee?

 

[bouee]

How was it "clearly obvious" for Phillips who thought and wrote he was gaining more respect for Murray and though Kenny was making it sound worse?

He was lying ..... and ignored Hougdahl & Karen.

If anything Phillips was lied and conned by Murray. He left his conversations / meeting with believing Murray not suspecting him.

At the end of the day, we really do not see anyone being able to think "doctor would harm or kill Michael". So is it reasonable to foresee?

You can ask me 327 times if it was reasonable to foresee, I will tell you each time that most people would have, given the information he had. I have said that for quite some time, since reading Hougdahl's e mail, and testimony keeps confirming , at least for me, what I've been thinking. It's common sense , really.

If you saw a friend of yours deteriorating under a doctor's care, to the point your friend is no longer able to use a fork and has to eat using his fingers one night, and you go ask the doctor, and the doctor says 3 times over 3 weeks that your friend is really fine, would you believe that doctor ? I would not, and i guess many wouldn't either.

If he was lied to by Murray, why not simply say so ? Why is it sooo hard to say health issues were discussed, that sleep issues were discussed ? You have never answered this question, I think.
He was not THAT conned by Murray. Let me ask you again, what was he saying to Murray, more or less agressively on the 24th ? Do you think Phillips was congratulating him for a good rehearsal ? Was he asking for strip club adressses ?

It's really possible Phillips was playing with fire & pressured Murray.

According to the info we have had so far, Phillips was the only one who had enough info to connect the dots.

 

[crillon]

We can "think" and "feel" all we want about what Phillips may have said to Murray at Michael's house, but without facts to back it up, it means NOTHING. It's fantasy or wishful thinking. Phillips may have been discussing the contract, for all we know. But, even if he was there to ensure that Michael was being well taken care of by Murray, so what? It's like a business associate or a friend checking in when someone isn't feeling well or shows signs of something being wrong health-wise. There may be nothing nefarious about that visit--if it indeed even happened--other than appropriate concern (esp considering the clock was ticking down on the departure for London).

ETA: "both AEG and Murry's attorneys said off the record that such a meeting did not take place. (Source:http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/484668/20130629/michael-jackson-prince.htm#.Uc9RZ-sZzL8

 

[Aquarius]

You still wonder what the implication is. Is Prince Jackson saying Randy Phillips gets too aggressive in his temperament? This has been established. That when Michael Jackson, his father, got off the phone, Michael was reduced to tears by how aggressive Randy could be and this establishes why so much Propofol was administered?
Conrad Murray, with his expertise in medicine, should have taken that into consideration with his patient, Michael Jackson, since Michael was his only patient at the time.

Even though you feel your employer is treating you unfair, it is the individual's demeanor that determines how they handle the stress. I honestly thought Michael Jackson made up his mind he was going to do the Shows by his attitude at the final rehearsals. What the trial has shown me is how much of Michael Jackson's money supported the Jackson clan, the money stretches to a lot of Jackson relatives. That's why I feel Katherine Jackson needed to make AEG Live pay her a lot of money because when she dies, Prince, Paris and Blanket will have to step up to the plate and continue spreading Michael Jackson's wealth, if she doesn't get any money from this lawsuit!

I agree with you in that Michael giving money to many in the J clan. I think it was TJ who said that Michael gave him $30K as a wedding gift and he saying he didn't want to accept it. If Michael wants to give that much that's his bus. but to say I didn't want to accept it but he accepted doesn't make sense to me. If you don't want to accept something, you don't accept it. I think that's an easy way out, I didn't want it but he insisted.

I don't know much about TJ & Taj, but now Taj is in charge of MJ's storage. Is he an honest person?

Aside from being by Michael's side during the '05 trial, does anyone know of something that Michael's fam. incl. his nephews ever done for him?

I didn't understand your comment about Phillips temperament & the amount of propofol given to Michael.

 

[ivy]

You can ask me 327 times if it was reasonable to foresee, I will tell you each time that most people would have, given the information he had. I have said that for quite some time, since reading Hougdahl's e mail, and testimony keeps confirming , at least for me, what I've been thinking. It's common sense , really.

and I keep saying it wasn't that common sense. Ortega , Kai Chase, Payne etc. who were aware of the doctor and saw Michael did not foresee it. It cannot be common sense if it is not common.

If you saw a friend of yours deteriorating under a doctor's care, to the point your friend is no longer able to use a fork and has to eat using his fingers one night, and you go ask the doctor, and the doctor says 3 times over 3 weeks that your friend is really fine, would you believe that doctor ? I would not, and i guess many wouldn't either.

doesn't it depend on the explanation? And what they think to be the problem - such as a mental issue? Also technically Michael did not die from being thin, or working too hard, or sleep deprivation. He even would not have died of Propofol if he was properly monitored. So he did not die from not being fine, he died from lack of monitoring.

If he was lied to by Murray, why not simply say so ? Why is it sooo hard to say health issues were discussed, that sleep issues were discussed ? You have never answered this question, I think.

wait for what other people says first.

He was not THAT conned by Murray. Let me ask you again, what was he saying to Murray, more or less agressively on the 24th ? Do you think Phillips was congratulating him for a good rehearsal ? Was he asking for strip club adressses ?

I don't think Phillips was at the house on the 24th - at least as of now. I believe them to be earlier and probably on the days of the riot meeting (15 or 16th) and June 20th.

It's really possible Phillips was playing with fire & pressured Murray.

he pressured Murray to leave Michael unattended to talk to strippers? or he pressured Murray to give Michael propofol? Unfortunately Prince's testimony is way too confusing and he did not hear what they were talking about.

According to the info we have had so far, Phillips was the only one who had enough info to connect the dots.

I disagree. Ortega had first hand experience of Michael's health and was aware of Murray. So is Payne. Kai Chase even had more information from them which included the knowledge of oxygen tanks and Murray spending the night. Karen was aware of the doctor and suspicious of all doctors and she saw Michael's health decline. But they assumed Murray was there to keep Michael healthy and not foresee harm / kill Michael. Karen assumed Michael was doing it to get out of the concerts.

 

[CherubimII]

I don't like the Jacksons (Joe, Katherine, and their living children) either; but it is truly strange to me that people come here, a Michael Jackson fan site, and take the time to defend AEG a billionaire ruthless corporation. :blink:

 

[LastTear]

I don't like the Jacksons (Joe, Katherine, and their living children) either; but it is truly strange to me that people come here, a Michael Jackson fan site, and take the time to defend AEG a billionaire ruthless corporation. :blink:

I have asked you before what does that have to do with the truth? It's like people who used to say they would take a child cancer patients word over a rich, powerful superstar.

Michael was all about the truth, let us just try to figure that truth out, whatever it may be.

 

[serendipity]

I have ot say this last interaction between Prince and Panish about "mean depositon" seems realy rehearsed.

I have to agree. His answer about Paris words regarding Grace also sound VERY rehearsed. Basically the exact same answer Kai and TJ also gave. I find it sad actually that Grace is so important for them that they would discredit Paris like that. It actually makes me believe her words even more.

And it was such a waste of time for Panish to go on and on about the "mean" deposition, only to concede at the end nothing bad happened and it was a normal deposition. Pathetic and trying hard.

 

[qbee]

Just have to say I find it very sad and heartbreaking how Michael was treated especially by Randy Phillips and that many conversations that led to his tears. Regardless who was responsible for hiring and supervising Murray. Michael had a very hard time causing him many health and mental issues and Randy Phillips didn't help him at all in that regard. (It was others who stepped forward saying MJ needed help) We all want the truth but lets not sweep under the rug how terrible Michael was treated by Randy Phillips and spoken about behind his back by others showing complete lack of respect and understanding. Yes in the end MJ was able to perform a good rehearsal but that doesn't absolve the lack of compassion or respect that was given to him when he was having problems getting there.

I can see seeking truth but hope you also present you don't support AEGs treatment of Michael throughout this whole process. I don't support either side so I can be biased when info comes forward. and call a spade a spade .. Jackson's or AEG .. I don't think AEG hired Murray but their actions many times were very concerning and may have sent MJ into a tail spin causing depression anxiety etc. I know the Jackson's have also caused MJ much stress. But I just don't want to make AEG seem like hero's here when it concerns MJ because they were certainly NOT. You must know that is what confuses many fans and cause some to attack MJJC when they see members seeming to be defending AEG , It's because they don't understand why. They can't separate defending that AEG didn't hire Murray based on evidence from AEG actions and treatment of Michael, But I hope all of here know, Not all they did was for Michael's best interest. I see no need to make excuses for that when debating the evidence about hiring and supervising Murray.

Regardless of who wins this case never forget Michael suffered This is not dramatics .. HE SUFFERED Trying to bring this concert to his fans. I just hope no one forgets that when debating this case.

I wish this case never came to light .. but IM glad to see it doesn't effect the love and support for Michael in the world. He is still the ONE :heart:

 

[ivy]

You must know that is what confuses many fans and cause some to attack MJJC when they see members seeming to be defending AEG , It's because they don't understand why. They can't separate defending that AEG didn't hire Murray based on evidence from AEG actions and treatment of Michael, But I hope all of here know, Not all they did was for Michael's best interest. I see no need to make excuses for that when debating the evidence about hiring and supervising Murray.

Absolutely correct and I agree 1000%.

This case is about is whether AEG is liable for negligently hiring, supervising or retaining Conrad Murray. That's the question the jurors and we are trying to find an answer. It's not about whether AEG is a ruthless corporation.

Just because some people might not think AEG did not hire Murray or believe the elements of negligent hiring hasn't been proved and so on, it doesn't mean they condone how AEG treated Michael or they deny AEG is a ruthless corporation.

I feel some fans - especially some fans on twitter- are mixing up their emotions with what the case is about. I mean for example I have seen people tweet "AEG called Michael a freak, make AEG pay $40 billion". That's a pure emotional response with no understanding what the case is about. When those people see other fans discussing the arguments , they see it as defending AEG or being pro-AEG.

I'm foreign to the concept that we need to blindly accept anything. Even during Murray criminal trial, defense arguments were discussed and evaluated. Different fans ended up with different opinions. For example I know people who thinks prosecution actually could not prove an IV drip and so on.

 

[Ashtanga]

Don´t know if anyone is interested, but this a part of what Karen said on her fb back in 2009.

he was doing the only thing he knew how to do to escape....drugs.
who could blame him....the pressure, no control, no money, 50 show contract, KO yelling at him everyday,...he was backed into a corner....
all he wanted was to be able sleep.....so he could get through the next rehearsal...



KO and Travis KNEW Michael was in physical and emotional trouble during TII....they chose to lie about it with the rest of the vultures collecting millions from his death!!!!
They are constantly patting each other on the back...for their role. But do they take any responsibility for ignoring Michael's condition????? I take responsibility for not doing enough to save him!!!!!! Not only did they ignore his condition...they lie about it!
I will ALWAYS take my share of responsibility in Michael's death...I didn't do enough. They can not even admit that. They are such money hungry cowards!
Sorry y'all....I do not pretend to be beyond my anger and grief

There wasn't even a hint of concern.

Oh and if Ms. Faye was comfortable enough to rip off the fans with Randy Jackson, I'm surprised she was not comfortable enough to approach him about her concerns regarding MJ.

As a matter of fact, since she wants the entire world to believe she and MJ were so tight, I'm surprised she didn't approach MJ directly.

Then again, she was probably trying to protect her OWN paycheck and didn't want MJ to give her the big boot.

Karen and all the others are in the same boat. What I see is that they were all talking/discussing only among themselves about the problems of Michael. And that gives me the impression (and it is the reality of the facts) is that one was playing the problem to the other try to solve. :doh: Everyone knew that there was a doctor. All saw that something was wrong. But nobody had the idea of ​​talking directly to Michael to know what was really happening. :wtf2 WHY???? :bugeyed Karen loves both Michael, saw all these things screaming in her face, was so close to him and did absolutely nothing!? :bugeyed What kind of friend is that? :wtf: It's so WTF to me! :blink: If Michael were my friend I would talk to him in private. I would move heaven and hell to help my friend and prevent something serious happened. I would NEVER stay silent watching all this. NEVER! Unfortunately, the reality was this: Michael was surrounded by people, but he was completely alone. No one was there for him. Nobody cared about Michael. Very sad. All this makes me so angry. To hell with all these people. errin:


*big sigh*

 

[crillon]

^^^^ I think it's difficult for fans to separate the legal issues from the moral/ethical ones. AEG, like most corporations, is driven by the bottom-line and pleasing shareholders--it's business. Based on the testimony, there are serious moral breaches in how AEG treated Michael and cringe-worthy, even cruel comments made about him, but that is completely separate from the legal issues and whether or not there was any wrongdoing.

 

[Ashtanga]

^^^^ I think it's difficult for fans to separate the legal issues from the moral/ethical ones. AEG, like most corporations, is driven by the bottom-line and pleasing shareholders--it's business. Based on the testimony, there are serious moral breaches in how AEG treated Michael and cringe-worthy, even cruel comments made about him, but that is completely separate from the legal issues and whether or not there was any wrongdoing.

It is... I know. Everyone knows that. But Michael's health should come first. Nobody cared if it was really OK to do concerts. If they saw that Michael was not OK, should postpone concerts, giving more time for Michael, for him to care and were OK and ready (healthy) to carry them or simply cancel all this crap.

And yes, there were a lot of irregularities and one of them begins with neglect the health of Michael... since they all knew he was not OK and anyway they went ahead with the whole thing without caring about Michael. But who would care? The most important is to make a lot of money. Up on stage and do the show, no matter what. It does not matter if he was OK or not. All wrong from beginning to end. (Or not? I'm completely wrong? :bugeyed) Well, we have the end of it all: Michael dead.

 

[bouee]

and I keep saying it wasn't that common sense. Ortega , Kai Chase, Payne etc. who were aware of the doctor and saw Michael did not foresee it. It cannot be common sense if it is not common.

That doesn't convince me.

Ortega sent an e mail where he said it reminded him of the HBO collapse.

what I said is: Travis had a bad impression of Murray, Kai did not ask anything. They did not have Murray's version. you did not answer that ?

doesn't it depend on the explanation? And what they think to be the problem - such as a mental issue? Also technically Michael did not die from being thin, or working too hard, or sleep deprivation. He even would not have died of Propofol if he was properly monitored. So he did not die from not being fine, he died from lack of monitoring.

Who said Michael was fine ? It was Murray, and accidentally AEG in this trial, not the others.

It was Murray's job to diagnose the problem, not AEG's. it was Murray who should have told them if it was physical, mental, etc... So Murray saying Michael was fine seems weird and suspicious, it IS common sense.

I said earlier that Michael died from Murray's negligence and that it was obvious that Murray was negligent. That was what was foreseeable. Not propofol.

wait for what other people says first.

who ? In the meetings with Murray there was Phillips, Gongaware, DiLeo, Michael and Murray. Ortega was there once I think, on june 20th, stayed 10mn. So are we waiting for Murray's testimony who will testify to lying to Phillips and Gongaware ?

I don't think Phillips was at the house on the 24th - at least as of now. I believe them to be earlier and probably on the days of the riot meeting (15 or 16th) and June 20th.

Ok, so you think Prince is lying, or "confused" about that, about the last time he talked to his dad ?
Prince did not change his version under cross, did not change his version from his depo, did not reply 150 times "that he didn't remember". He only said he was not 100% sure it was the 24th, to say it was maybe the 23rd. Then confirmed it was the last time he talked to Michael, so 24th.
So it was either 23rd or 24th, very likely 24th.

He said it happened in the evenings , when Murray came around, so after Kai left. Michael was not there and Phillips came unannounced. So that was not for a meeting.

he pressured Murray to leave Michael unattended to talk to strippers? or he pressured Murray to give Michael propofol? Unfortunately Prince's testimony is way too confusing and he did not hear what they were talking about.

IMO Prince's testimony is NOT confusing.
He said they talked in hushed voices, and Phillips looked agressive. So they were NOT talking about how good the rehearsal was.
I have no idea what they were talking about, only it was something that others were not supposed to hear.

I disagree. Ortega had first hand experience of Michael's health and was aware of Murray. So is Payne. Kai Chase even had more information from them which included the knowledge of oxygen tanks and Murray spending the night. Karen was aware of the doctor and suspicious of all doctors and she saw Michael's health decline. But they assumed Murray was there to keep Michael healthy and not foresee harm / kill Michael. Karen assumed Michael was doing it to get out of the concerts.

You didn't respond to what I said though.

Phillips and probably Gongaware too knew Murray was spending the night.
Ortega talked to Murray for 10mn, sent repeated warnings about Michael's health, I have no idea what he thought of Murray, I have no idea if he knew murray was full time, I have no idea if he knew Murray spent the night.
Payne did not like Murray.
Kai Chase said she did not suspect him. Karen heard about him the last week, and did not talk to him.
Nobody else other than Phillips, Gongaware & DiLeo knew that Murray kept saying Michael was fine. And Ortega was in a meeting with him for 10mn and said Murray did not seem to be aware of what happened on june 19th, he had a different version from Michael.

 

[bouee]

It is... I know. But Michael's health should come first. Nobody cared if it was really OK to do concerts. If they saw that Michael was not OK, should postpone concerts, giving more time for Michael, for him to care and were OK and ready (healthy) to carry them or simply cancel all this crap. But who would care? The most important is to make a lot of money. Up on stage and do the show, no matter what. It does not matter if he was OK or not. Well, we have the end of it all: Michael dead. Or not? :bugeyed

I agree with you Ashtanga. And the ones who were paying Murray turned a blind eye, to say the least.

 

[AliCat]

I agree with you in that Michael giving money to many in the J clan. I think it was TJ who said that Michael gave him $30K as a wedding gift and he saying he didn't want to accept it. If Michael wants to give that much that's his bus. but to say I didn't want to accept it but he accepted doesn't make sense to me. If you don't want to accept something, you don't accept it. I think that's an easy way out, I didn't want it but he insisted.

I don't know much about TJ & Taj, but now Taj is in charge of MJ's storage. Is he an honest person?

Aside from being by Michael's side during the '05 trial, does anyone know of something that Michael's fam. incl. his nephews ever done for him?

I didn't understand your comment about Phillips temperament & the amount of propofol given to Michael.

The stress level going up for Michael Jackson. There seems to be an implication, on the part of Murray, that Michael Jackson was at fault at how much Propofol was in Michael Jackson's body at time of death. Conrad Murray, you would think, would take into consideration Michael Jackson's weight and his stress level, when making the recommended dose of Propofol and Lidocaine to administer in Michael Jackson's IV sleep medication. Absolutely no competance whatsoever!

 

[crillon]

It is... I know. Everyone knows that. But Michael's health should come first. Nobody cared if it was really OK to do concerts. If they saw that Michael was not OK, should postpone concerts, giving more time for Michael, for him to care and were OK and ready (healthy) to carry them or simply cancel all this crap.

And yes, there were a lot of irregularities and one of them begins with neglect the health of Michael... since they all knew he was not OK and anyway they went ahead with the whole thing without caring about Michael. But who would care? The most important is to make a lot of money. Up on stage and do the show, no matter what. It does not matter if he was OK or not. All wrong from beginning to end. (Or not? I'm completely wrong? :bugeyed) Well, we have the end of it all: Michael dead.

I agree that Michael's health--both physical and emotional--was critical and if he felt he couldn't do the concerts because it was too much for him, he had a choice to cancel it all. But, he did not. For many reasons, he wanted to do TII so he soldiered on with the help of a physician who he'd hoped could help him sleep so he could perform. And, you are right--to AEG and most corporations it IS about the money. That's just reality--corporations are not your mother or your friend or your personal doctor. What they had with Michael was a business deal, a contract, and Michael knew very well as a very experienced & brilliant businessman what his obligations were to AEG and theirs to him.

Should AEG have acted more ethically/morally in how they behaved towards Michael? Yes. I agree with you. But, this trial is not about whether or not AEG employees acted like jerks--it is about whether or not they negligently hired Michael's doctor. Period. And, it's on that basis that we are discussing the pros and cons of the case, even if we are personally upset & disgusted by AEG's disrespectful behavior.

 

[passy001]

Who said Michael was fine ? It was Murray, and accidentally AEG in this trial, not the others.

It was Murray's job to diagnose the problem, not AEG's. it was Murray who should have told them if it was physical, mental, etc... So Murray saying Michael was fine IS weird and suspicious, it IS common sense.

I said earlier that Michael died from Murray's negligence and that it was obvious that Murray was negligent. That was what was foreseeable. Not propofol.

I am not going to respond to every single point you raised.

However, I feel compelled to comment on the above because it's so important.

MJ did not die of malnutrition or weight loss. his autopsy report is very clear about that. in fact the doctors found him healthy for a man of his age. MJ died of Propofol intoxication due to the lack of monitoring. Murray was found guilty of negligence, for not monitoring MJ while administering the drug. that is a FACT.

AEG had no control of that and could not have possibly predicted this.

Had Murray monitored MJ correctly, he would still be alive today. whether the concerts would still have taken place is debatable. still, MJ would be here with his kids today had he been monitored well.

no one, not even MJ, would have predicted that Murray would negligently administer the drug to MJ, let alone an anaestetic drug outside the hospital setting without proper equipment. AEG did not know that MJ was under substance abuse, let alone Propofol abuse during the preparation to the concerts. and that is why the jacksons have failed to prove their case so far. Noone knew what was going on, worse noone knew MJ weight loss and other symptoms were the result of Murray actions.

 

[jamba]

Absolutely correct and I agree 1000%.

This case is about is whether AEG is liable for negligently hiring, supervising or retaining Conrad Murray. That's the question the jurors and we are trying to find an answer. It's not about whether AEG is a ruthless corporation.

Just because some people might not think AEG did not hire Murray or believe the elements of negligent hiring hasn't been proved and so on, it doesn't mean they condone how AEG treated Michael or they deny AEG is a ruthless corporation.

I feel some fans - especially some fans on twitter- are mixing up their emotions with what the case is about. I mean for example I have seen people tweet "AEG called Michael a freak, make AEG pay $40 billion". That's a pure emotional response with no understanding what the case is about. When those people see other fans discussing the arguments , they see it as defending AEG or being pro-AEG.

I'm foreign to the concept that we need to blindly accept anything. Even during Murray criminal trial, defense arguments were discussed and evaluated. Different fans ended up with different opinions. For example I know people who thinks prosecution actually could not prove an IV drip and so on.

I see the same thing--outrage that anyone connected with AEG called MJ a 'freak" and the slap too got outrage--and those 2 things alone make AEG guilty in the eyes of some people, yet they are not relevant to the negligent hiring issue.

To me, this case is full of ambiguities and grey areas that overlap and the issue thus become thorny. Murray had no obvious history as a 'bad' doctor who would kill his patient by being mind-bogglingly negligent. On the other hand, MJ did look thin (even tho' he was according to the autopsy within normal body mass index, and he assured others that he had always been thin, had problems keeping weight on, so maybe they overlooked it, but seeing him in TII, I have to say he looked thinner than usual), and there were the episodes of the 19th and Bugzee's remarks. I consider Karen Faye's testimony as basically worthless as she is on the one hand blaming MJ for acting like a victim and on the other of being at death's door--so she is all over the place. The one person I give credence to is Ortega and I feel that his advice was not taken seriously enough, even tho' MJ himself said I'm fine. Ortega was a seasoned professional and his judgment should have counted for more than it did IMO. This is where I feel AEG didn't stop, look, and listen. On the other hand, in this ambiguous and complex situation, you have a show that is supposed to open in 20 days and lots of work to get set up in London and the show has already been re-scheduled once so you really can't do it again without an outcry.

Also to make it all moot to some extent re the last days, you have CM consistently administering propofol for 6 weeks or 60 days in a nightly abuse of his patient that preceded the events of the 19th. I think the jury has a head-splitting case on their hands and I am guessing they might find AEG liable to some extent but not to the extent that KJ would like. Just for me personally, I wish that Ortega's suggestion re bringing in a psychiatrist and paying more attention to MJ's physical needs had been attended to. Maybe if they had done something like MJ and Quincy did re Thriller when they realized it was awful and they had to remix it all--take a few days off, and then come back in fresh and redo each song. But in the case of Thriller, MJ agreed to this of course and had a team he could work together with, whereas in TII the team was not cohesive--maybe b/c MJ was not in full control as he wished to be, and somehow felt he needed the propofol for sleep. Did the propofol start around the same time as the 50 shows were announced? Was this the reason he turned to propofol so early on?

The other culprit in all this was the press--all the negatives from them make the whole situation worse--if the press had not been so pessimistic about the concerts even happening, would it have been easier to admit needing more time? If the press hadn't written all the stories about MJs frail condition and various illnesses would the insurance have been so hard to get? The press is always there with their poison pen to torture men.

 

[bouee]

I am not going to respond to every single point you raised.
However, I feel compelled to comment on the above because it's so important.

MJ did not die of malnutrition or weight loss. his autopsy report is very clear about that. in fact the doctors found him healthy for a man of his age. MJ died of Propofol intoxication due to the lack of monitoring. Murray was found guilty of negligence, for not monitoring MJ while administering the drug. that is a FACT.

Do you realize you are saying exactly what I'm saying ? So we agree on this.

AEG had no control of that and could not have possibly predicted this.

Had Murray monitored MJ correctly, he would still be alive today. whether the concerts would still have taken place is debatable. still, MJ would be here with his kids today had he been monitored well.

no one, not even MJ, would have predicted that Murray would negligently administer the drug to MJ, let alone an anaestetic drug outside the hospital setting without proper equipment. AEG did not know that MJ was under substance abuse, let alone Propofol abuse during the preparation to the concerts. and that is why the jacksons have failed to prove their case so far. Noone knew what was going on, worse noone knew MJ weight loss and other symptoms were the result of Murray actions.

Re Bolded : they knew (AEg knew, or at least Phillips), that Murray FAILED with that. They say Murray told them Michael was fine. Isn't it strange after 3 meetings and those symptoms keep getting worse?

I don't want to speculate about Michael's state of mind. We know that he was under pressure to rehearse, that he knew Phillips was talking to Murray behind his back, and apparently, according to Kenny, it's possible he did not give the full picture to Murray about the 19th.

 

[bouee]

The one person I give credence to is Ortega and I feel that his advice was not taken seriously enough, even tho' MJ himself said I'm fine. Ortega was a seasoned professional and his judgment should have counted for more than it did IMO. This is where I feel AEG didn't stop, look, and listen. O

.

I agree with this.

I don't agree with everything you say, but your analyse is taking the whole situation into account, not just parts of it, so that's fair, and I have to say I appreciate it.

 

[Tygger]

If there is sufficient nexus between the harm caused by the employee and even a single isolated incident, the employer may be held liable.
----
Similarly, the Illinois Court of Appeals has held that the employer need not foresee “the precise harm that did in fact occur” to be liable for the harm caused by its employee if, at the time of hiring, “a reasonably prudent person should have foreseen some harm to another as likely to occur.”

Ivy, are you able to find any cases with these characteristics? I believe this aligns with the current civil trial. How were similar cases (if any) decided?

and now you changed the scenario, what Faye knew or thought doesn't really matter unless AEG people were also aware of it.

AEG's Sankey, Faye, Walker, and Payne were aware. AEG's Phillips and Gongaware say they do not remember speaking to the doctor about Michael's sleep issues.

Ivy, there is risk in the first sentence; that is why I suggested removing that risk. Even without the risk, there was a legal issue. Would anyone in this thread truly accept our employer/business partner employing our personal doctor? It is inappropriate, unethical, and creates an abundance of conflict. This is why there are so many issues in the professional sports world regarding this.

I could not believe when Phillips incredulously said, and I am paraphrasing, if Michael thought the situation between himself, Tohme, and AEG was unethical, he was fine with it. I do not know if Michael showed that document to his lawyer(s) but, it was an unethical situation and he most likely would have been advised against it.

Is it not interesting that the doctor's employment contract was never presented to anyone on Michael's legal team? Phillips was in contact with Branca and even Branca never saw the contract. I thought Branca's comment to Phillips about the TII PPV vs. the PPV Michael was interested in doing with his family very interesting as well. Branca seemed to support TII (without contacting his client first) so I am unsure why Phillips did not even mention Michael's doctor having a contract pending.

AEG are not accountable for Murray's actions as a medical doctor, the judge clarified that. So there would be no problem admitting they knew about sleep issues. I don't know yet why it is a problem for them to say that. Maybe the answer will come later.

I'm sure whoever loses the case will appeal the decision.

Bouee, your comments about the “food person” always make me laugh. Why would a 50 year old force need Phillips’ friend to make sure he was fed? I wonder how much the job would pay. From AliCat’s photo, he is a bit mature to be an intern.

Phillips/Gongaware cannot admit to those conversations because they will be held liable. They will not be able to explain allegedly hiring a cardiologist to help with sleep issues.

I do not believe the plaintiffs would appeal. Big companies use appeals to postpone damage payouts but, the plaintiffs' lawyers can thwart that.

Michael was all about the truth, let us just try to figure that truth out, whatever it may be.

Last Tear, I wish it was that easy but, the truth is the hardest pill to swallow and most unacceptable.

 

[Annita]

After Prince was deposed the first day and before Paris's deposition was supposed to happen, Jackson lawyers went to court and claimed AEG lawyer behaved aggressively and in a manner to agitate Prince. TJ signed a declaration as a guardian saying he believed Prince was treated inappropriately. AEG lawyers denied it, and gave court a copy of the deposition. Paris's deposition for the first day happened at the court house jury room so that the judge can intervene if needed.

It seems they went back to those claims and Jackson lawyers had to admit that AEG lawyers weren't being mean to Prince and Paris.

That being said 4 or 5 hours of deposition and how many pages etc. seems to be highly irrelevant to the issue at hand. Everyone had been deposed for hours to days, Karen Faye was deposed for 5-6 days so what?

I know all that and yes there was nothing inappropiatly about the deposition from AEG. I only said the last interaction Panish with Prince is a rehearsed interaction to make it kind of laufhable to admit there wasn`t something inappropiate.

 

[bouee]

Is it not interesting that the doctor's employment contract was never presented to anyone on Michael's legal team? Phillips was in contact with Branca and even Branca never saw the contract. I thought Branca's comment to Phillips about the TII PPV vs. the PPV Michael was interested in doing with his family very interesting as well. Branca seemed to support TII (without contacting his client first) so I am unsure why Phillips did not even mention Michael's doctor having a contract pending.

I don't know if it's voluntary on Phillip's part. I think, until we hear otherwise, it was due to AEG's messy organisation. The contacts we know of about Murray's contract are between Jorrie (who is not AEG) /Woolley/Murray, I think.
Panish implied that Phillips threatened Murray about his contract, but that can not be made clear.

Bouee, your comments about the “food person” always make me laugh. Why would a 50 year old force need Phillips’ friend to make sure he was fed? I wonder how much the job would pay. From AliCat’s photo, he is a bit mature to be an intern.

I know... it's hard to find the right word for this very new "job" that Phillips invented. He said Loefller did that as a friend, and was not paid. That must have been 2-3 days maximum. I'm sure Michael must have loved that.

Phillips/Gongaware cannot admit to those conversations because they will be held liable. They will not be able to explain allegedly hiring a cardiologist to help with sleep issues.

I think it probably goes further than that. Murray was Michael's choice, so I'm not sure it was so important that he was a cardiologist. I think what is more problematic is Murray's visible incompetence, so they need to downplay Michael's health issues to the maximum.

 

[qbee]

So far i don't see any evidence that AEG were paying or paid Murray anything - Or that they would without MJs signature and approval of the contract. Only Michael paid Murray because he was his actual employer. Now I see the Possibility AEG would pay Murray on Michael's behalf once the contract was finalized. But they were not employing him for themselves nor would they. They get reimbursed by Murrays actual employer (Michael Jackson) who Murray is doing services for. I do agree AEG should have not made themselves 3rd party to that contract, nor should Randy Phillips inserted himself into that situation with MJ and his doctor trying to excerpt some control . (but from a human standpoint I understand why they did and their concerns) Legally I don't know how that contract will be viewed. AEG Would not have drew up the contract of hiring Murray on their own. Michael is the one who requested Murray to be put on payroll as his personal physician and he allowed AEG to draft the contract of the terms and reimbursements to them for paying Murray in his behalf. I don't see him asking Murray to do harm to MJ and get him there at any cost, but they met with them asking them fix the problem get MJ healthy so he can return and rehearse and perform his concerts. Both DR and MJ said he was fine and would be fine. They had no way to prove otherwise. Its not AEG fault Murray killed MJ before they could see if that would be the case.

 

[qbee]

Thread cleaned. With topics of this nature is easy for the discussion to get heated sometimes. Please let's all be mindful of our tone and how we address and respond to each other. We want all our members to enjoy their experience on MJJC so please help ensure that with how you post and interact with other members and staff on the board. Respect and treat others as you wish to be treated. You can address this topic and discuss it without insulting each other. Certainly you are free to state you disagree and still be respectful to the member you are addressing. Please carry on with that in mind. Some personal insults and arguments have been edited or removed Without editing your opinions on the topic. If you have any questions or concerns please PM myself or Admin account.
Lets all agree to peacefully move forward and get Back to the topic

 

[Tygger]

I don't know if it's voluntary on Phillip's part. I think, until we hear otherwise, it was due to AEG's messy organisation. The contacts we know of about Murray's contract are between Jorrie (who is not AEG) /Woolley/Murray, I think.

Phillips was discussing a pending business option/contract which would be adverse to the TII venture and its contracts. He warns of AllGood being a litigious company. Branca warns Michael should not sign any contract without him (or Katz I believe). Why not discuss Michael possibly signing the contract between himself, the doctor, and AEG on the 25th?

I think it probably goes further than that. Murray was Michael's choice, so I'm not sure it was so important that he was a cardiologist. I think what is more problematic is Murray's visible incompetence, so they need to downplay Michael's health issues to the maximum.

Michael chose a cardiologist to help him with his sleep issues. This is a red flag. AEG will not be able to explain accepting a cardiologist working with Michael on sleep issues because no reasonable person can explain that. AEG will be held liable if they admit to this. Yes, I agree they will downplay any deterioration because if they can be connect to the doctor, they can say it was not evident that he was negligent. Thus, attributing Michael's symptoms to demerol; not anything the doctor gave him or lack of sleep.

Only Michael paid Murray because he was his actual employer.

But they were not employing him for themselves nor would they. They get reimbursed by Murrays actual employer (Michael Jackson) who Murray is doing services for. I do agree AEG should have not made themselves 3rd party to that contract, nor should Randy Phillips inserted himself into that situation with MJ and his doctor trying to excerpt some control . (but from a human standpoint I understand why they did and their concerns)

Michael is the one who requested Murray to be put on payroll as his personal physician and he allowed AEG to draft the contract of the terms and reimbursements to them for paying Murray in his behalf.

I removed some of your comments and left these. The trial has not proven Michael hired the doctor, allowed for a contract to be drafted, or requested the doctor be put on the pre-production budget. Michael chose the doctor and suggested the monthly salary. AEG made the decision to put the doctor on the pre-prodution budget and drafted a contract to their liking. I do not understand from a human standpoint how it would be acceptable for AEG to control Michael's doctor unless I misunderstood your post.

 

[LastTear]

Last Tear, I wish it was that easy but, the truth is the hardest pill to swallow and most unacceptable.

I didn't say it was easy and unfortunately this trial is raising more questions than providing any answers, but we still look and discuss in the hope of learning the truth. I don't mind how hard it is to accept, I would rather harsh realities than fantasy ideals.

*******
So let's be clear. I don't care one jot about AEG but I don't agree with this lawsuit on the basis of negligent hiring and the only reason the lawsuit bothers me is the way Michael is portrayed by both sides. It doesn't matter how many times people say 'but AEG said the worse' - AEG didn't bring this lawsuit. If the original claims in the lawsuit remained then I might be inclined to have the opinion that they are serious enough accusations and a court case should ensue, but those were shown to have no merit.

Yes, of course the emails bother me, I am offended of Michaels behalf as I would reading that about anyone's loved one but I have tried to take a step aside from emotions to look at it all logically, which I guess has made my blood pressure stop from rising too much. But it doesn't mean that I condone them.

I don't know how I will be when AEG present their defence, rightly or wrongly I think I might be more forgiving of a negative portrayal of Michael than I would be from his family. I hold my hands up to that one. All I know is that so far in the trial it has made me think 'yeah, but'? more times than it should at this stage. Nothing is clear, not from either side, but I am not going to twist anything to suit a certain mindset because it sits more comfortably within me.

ETA The one aspect that does make me see red is when I feel that Murray's responsibility is being diminished. Ultimately he is the one responsible for Michael's death, he was the one in a position of trust and he negligently abused that position. If Michael had never heard of Murray before then I would most defiantly say this would need explaining.