Joyce;3856594 said:
When I said hooked up to Propofol, I mean IV in place but Propofol not dripping into his veins at that time. It is just a scary thought that I have every now and then even if it doesn't seem realistic based on the evidence.
Don't worry, really. There was no one there other than Murray, Michael and the kids and security outside. The people who came on the 24th were gone by that time, and that would have been easily shown with the surveillance cameras. The video we have of the surveillance camera is the one that was shown at Murray's trial, at the time it was relevant to show that Murray & Michael were in the house. There's probably more that we have not seen, maybe people arriving earlier or leaving a little later.
loveforever;3856596 said:
this is incorrect. Michael didn't pay Murray. Prince testimony is Michael felt bad AEG still hadn't paid Murray his salary, Michael tried to help him for his basic needs but Murray refused. So Michael asked his children to give some hundred dollars to Murray to help him. Murray sometime refused, sometime took a portion from the children.
From what I know the police only took the surveillance tape of the midnight period Michael was back home. So we don't know during the day, who come and go. Am I right?
I agree with you.
And I think it is important to point out that Murray was asking AEG to pay him, he knew who was supposed to pay him.
passy001;3857113 said:
I honestly would not hold my breath. if the jacksons could not establish this in the past two months I don't think they will do so in just a few days when their case wraps up. This forseebility is at the heart of their case and should have been established when Phillips took the stand.
Jacksons lawyers mentioned Finkelstein told Gongaware, and Finkelstein has not testified yet.
AEG mentionned Debbie on history tour, Gongaware was there at the same time. So she (and maybe Ratner) could also say that Gongaware knew, or paid the doctor as he was in charge of the tour. Gongaware said that there was no doctor on History tour.
So I think we need to wait for these persons to testify.
passy001;3857113 said:
I actually think that AEG stalling on advancing money to Murray is playing to their advantage. it shows that they were resisting Murray as much as possible. it is true that AEG did not like Murray and the fact that he was expensive did not help. they were hoping MJ would change his mind and they thought they could find other doctors at a fraction of the price tag. In the end they had no say over Murray fate because it was MJ wish. MJ had the final say.
I'm not sure it will be to their advantage. The fact that they were stalling contract and payment is used by the Jacksons to say that's one of the ways AEG pressured Murray : promising a contract and money. The contract took over 1 month and half to materialise, and Murray asked AEG for payment already in May.
The way I understand the AEG-Murray contract, is that when Michael would have signed it, only Michael could terminate Murray, AEG could not, except if the tour was cancelled. So until that was signed, AEG could have.
AEG asked Jorrie to do the contract, I'm not sure they saw it. I'm not sure anyone else other than Jorrie, Wooley and Murray saw it. So it's hard to say how Phillips and Gongaware viewed the contract , and what was their personal opinion as to if they could fire Murray. But Murray knew that.
Lisha;3856621 said:
I think, Ivy, it is more like:
First occasion happens sometime before the 24th, with Phillips and Murray. Prince tells MJ the next day.
Second occasion, Prince knows it's the 24th because it was the last time he ever talked to his dad. Wouldn't a child remember that? He calls to tell his dad that Phillips , Murray, Thome and someone else or some unnamed others are there, and his dad tells him (per phonecall) to offer them something to drink/eat. He goes to get chips and salsa in the kitchen even after they decline wanting anything, because his dad says to always bring something to guests anyway.
Next day he does not talk to his dad (the 25th)
Dad was at rehearsals on both occasions and they take place around evening.
That's the best I could follow it.
That's how I understood it too. Putnam tried to confuse Prince, but Prince did not really get confused.
He says at the beginning of the testimony Ivy quoted, that it was around when Murray came.
So it was very likely 24th, and another unknown date.
Iteresting that Phillips would come unnannounced at the house, and interesting also that Michael knew Phillips was seing Murray behind his back.
ivy;3856706 said:
That's a dismissed claim and judge's ruling states AEG had no control over Murray's treatment.
California Civil Jury Instructions (CACI)
426. Negligent Hiring, Supervision, or Retention of Employee
[Name of plaintiff] claims that [he/she] was harmed by [name of employee] and that [name of employer defendant] is responsible for that harm because [name of employer defendant] negligently [hired/ supervised/ [or] retained] [name of employee]. To establish this claim, [name of plaintiff] must prove all of the following:
1. That [name of employee] was [unfit/ [or] incompetent] to perform the work for which [he/she] was hired;
2. That [name of employer defendant] knew or should have known that [name of employee] was [unfit/ [or] incompetent] and that this [unfitness/ [or] incompetence] created a particular risk to others;
3. That [name of employee]’s [unfitness/ [or] incompetence] harmed [name of plaintiff]; and
4. That [name of employer defendant]’s negligence in [hiring/ supervising/ [or] retaining] [name of employee] was a substantial factor in causing [name of plaintiff]’s harm.
AEG's defense is playing to this difference which is a very valid and successful defense in negligent hiring. Now we will have to see if the jury differentiates between Propofol and pain killer issues, or will they think the type of the drugs won't matter.
bolded : so propofol is not relevant.
What we've been hearing so far perfectly fits the negligeant hiring / retaining & supervision of Murray.
You talk about foreseeabilty : it was (maybe) not foreseeable at the time of hiring , unless we hear that PG knew about past drug issues. But it was foreseeable seeing Michael's health was declining at exactly the same time Murray was treating him, to the point he was not able to rehearse properly or could not rehearse at all on the 19th. He was better on 23rd & 24th, but still had some weird symptoms. (which I think is probably the reason Phillips was at the house on 24th : Michael only did 2 songs and was better, but not really well either)
It doesn't matter to me what AEG or others thought what it was (psychological, demerol issue, etc..). It was the doctor's role to diagnose the problem, not AEG's.
What would they think of Murray advising Kenny Ortega about the show, special effects , etc ??
The doctor kept telling them Michael was fine and could do the shows, according to them. THAT is the problem they could see, the foreseeable risk.
Building the defense around propofol and secrecy (vs demerol that was visible ? ) will be only to trash Michael. They will talk about Michael's responsability as an adult, minimise Murray's rols as much as possible, hoping the jury will forget that AEG has some responsability too.
To me it's a weak defense, it means they can't adress the real issues, what the Jacksons are saying. It reminds me of Murray, of course on a very different level, saying "Michael swallowed the propofol, ate lorazepam pills, self injected..." that Murray brought into the house. It's hypocrisy.
LastTear;3856588 said:
Bouee
im not sure if I am misunderstanding, but IMO Murray couldn't do it because he would need to sleep. I don't see a problem with AEG getting a food person if they had reports that Michael was losing weight. I don't know what changed but I doubt it's a really big issue, I may be wrong but I'm not seeing it atm.
Re : bolded . Exactly. There's no problem with AEG hiring a food person.
The problem is why did they do that when they had a full time doctor ? Because they knew the doctor couldn't do it, he was working at night (or highly incompetent, any doctor could have done that).
It's also confirmed by Prince who said Phillips & Murray were meeting in the evenings when Murray would come. (Kai Chase said she didn't see Murray in the evenings, only in the mornings- she said she left the house between 6.30 and 8.30pm).
If we think that they hired a nutrtionnist/food person because Murray was working at night, then both Phillips and Gongaware knew Murray was hired to deal with sleep issues. They knew that at least on june 16th, that's when they started looking for food person.
ivy;3856591 said:
my post was not only aimed to you, if you did not realize it. my previous 2 explanations were aimed to another person.
??? If you did not realize it, you were quoting me, and apparently, you post was aimed at me, and others.
LMP Jackson;3856181 said:
Still on the testimony of Prince. I don't understand very well that part. What Joe has to do? Does anyone know?
I don't know if that will answer your question, but I have begun to sort the emails that were posted on Panish's website tu put them here in chronological order, and there's this on june 20th :
http://www.psblaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Exhibit-304-JB-16-21.pdf
On 1 st page : Branca answers a mail from Phillips. It's an report of the june 20th meeting, and in one pargraph Phillips mentions that Joe and Leonard Rowe are trying to involve Michael in a family event (AllGood). Branca answers twice : on page 1 & 4 . On page 4, he answers specifically about the family event.
. I think she was crazy in love with him. > :in_love: :fear: