Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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that time when he came by himself, he was speaking to him in hushed whispers. I was bringing him water, and he was talking to Dr. Murray. He was grabbing his elbow and looked aggressive to me.

This must have been the first time, if he got it right the first time......I think.....

do you have a recollection of when it was?
when he came by himself, no. But when he came with the other men and Dr. Tohme, I remember it to be the night before my dad died.
 
Thanks, you&meforever, for posting that part of Prince's testimony^


So...did the tete a tete at the bottom of the stairs occur on the second occasion because Phillips wanted to talk to Murray away from the rest of his company?
 
Thanks, you&meforever, for posting that part of Prince's testimony^


So...did the tete a tete at the bottom of the stairs occur on the second occasion because Phillips wanted to talk to Murray away from the rest of his company?

Dr. Thome eh? Hmmm? Don't like that guy. Suspicious is a understatement...
 
the questions is so confusing to anyone, so even if it happened yesterday he would probably give the same answer
 
The transcript shows the oldest was talking about two distinct events. It honestly does not matter at which event he saw Phillips handling the doctor or the time of day or the actual dates. The point is these meetings between Phillips and the doctor happened without Michael and that is not appropriate whatsoever. If they were having mindless chatter, they both would have admitted to those conversations sooner but, of course, let us wait to see what Phillips remembers.

Anytime Michael paid the doctor before the alleged employment by AEG, Michael was paying a self-employed doctor for services rendered just like any one of us. That is not employment.

Claim 2 - Negligent Hiring, Supervision and Training

AEG argues they did not hire Murray and could not foresee the risks Murray posed.

Judge states there are triable issues.

Judge states that even though the contract was not signed, a jury must decide if Murray and AEG had a oral or implied in fact contract. Communications, Murray's expenses being budgeted and so on is listed as evidence. Judge makes a note that Michael retaining services of Murray before AEG hired him could be a factor in determining proportional damages and liability.

AEG had argued that Murray was a licensed doctor and was not disciplined and Katherine argued they should have done a more detailed background check. Judge thinks this is a triable issue given that Gongaware had experience and knowledge about "tour doctors" and Michael's previous tours and "tour doctors".

Judge also thinks whether Murray's debt could have been a reason to foresee if such doctor under strong financial pressure may compromise his oath. This is another triable issue.

Therefore this claim will go to trial.
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...n-vs-AEG-Live-Full-Case-History-Summary/page2

Payne, an AEG witness, testified that the doctor was hired to deal with Michael’s sleep issues and believes Gongaware was aware of that. Phillips and Gongaware have conveniently forgotten any discussions regarding Michael’s sleep issues with the doctor because it would make them liable. A cardiologist is not qualified to treat sleep issues. Ironically enough, this cardiologist told Michael's children their father died of a heart attack!

Claim 5 Respondeat Superior

Judge states that AEG's evidence established that Murray was an independent contractor and not an employee and AEG had no control over "means and manner" of Murray's work. Judge cites case law that doctors are considered independent contractors.

Katherine claims that AEG hired Murray in part to ensure that Michael attended rehearsals. Judge says even this claim might be true, there's no evidence that AEG had any control over how Murray did that.

Judge also mentions secondary factors that AEG Live had nothing to do with medical care, medical work performed by a specialist without supervision, medicines were provided by Murray and the contract and the parties clearly understood that the agreement was for an independent contractor.

Therefore judge states there's no triable issue whether Murray was an employee and determines that Murray was an independent contractor.

As Katherine fails to show any evidence that AEG had any control over how (manner or means) Murray did his job, judge dismisses the respondeat superior claim.
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...n-vs-AEG-Live-Full-Case-History-Summary/page2

It is not necessary for AEG to be aware of how the doctor treated those sleep issues as per the judge’s ruling above. Anytime the defense brings up propofol, it is used to distract from the claim their clients could be held liable for which is negligent hiring, supervision, or training.

loveforever;3856583 said:
I am really tired of people put everything on paranoid. You are not MJ, you didn't experience what he had to deal with. You didn't deal with business sharks, opputunists, leeches, backstabbers and lunatics on the daily basis. So When he said he felt if he died, he was gonna be murdered. It's quite the legitimate thoughts. And yes, he was right. His death is the homicide. He was killed.

Involuntary manslaughter is a less serious form of homicide. The doctor was convicted of killing Michael unintentionally which means it is not murder. Murder must include intent and the State decided the doctor was negligent in his acts but, did not intend to kill Michael.

ivy;3856591 said:
my post was not only aimed to you, if you did not realize it. my previous 2 explanations were aimed to another person.

???
 
Tygger;3856692 said:
If they were having mindless chatter, they both would have admitted to those conversations sooner but, of course, let us wait to see what Phillips remembers.

Phillips already admitted he told Murray about Klein and I think Murray said in his infamous interview that Phillips told him about paying for Michael's expenses.

Anytime Michael paid the doctor before the alleged employment by AEG, Michael was paying a self-employed doctor for services rendered just like any one of us. That is not employment.

he was also giving money to Murray at Carolwood. You'll see it when I finish the summary.

It is not necessary for AEG to be aware of how the doctor treated those sleep issues as per the judge’s ruling above.

That's a dismissed claim and judge's ruling states AEG had no control over Murray's treatment.

California Civil Jury Instructions (CACI)
426. Negligent Hiring, Supervision, or Retention of Employee
[Name of plaintiff] claims that [he/she] was harmed by [name of employee] and that [name of employer defendant] is responsible for that harm because [name of employer defendant] negligently [hired/ supervised/ [or] retained] [name of employee]. To establish this claim, [name of plaintiff] must prove all of the following:
1. That [name of employee] was [unfit/ [or] incompetent] to perform the work for which [he/she] was hired;
2. That [name of employer defendant] knew or should have known that [name of employee] was [unfit/ [or] incompetent] and that this [unfitness/ [or] incompetence] created a particular risk to others;
3. That [name of employee]’s [unfitness/ [or] incompetence] harmed [name of plaintiff]; and
4. That [name of employer defendant]’s negligence in [hiring/ supervising/ [or] retaining] [name of employee] was a substantial factor in causing [name of plaintiff]’s harm.

Anytime the defense brings up propofol, it is used to distract from the claim their clients could be held liable for which is negligent hiring, supervision, or training.

I recommend reading negligent hiring lawsuit examples.

I tried to explain this multiple times before. let me try another example :

If a company hires someone with a history of violence and that person beats up a customer, they would be responsible for negligent hiring - because if they checked the person's background they would have seen that he was a risk for violence. simply put history of violence = future of violence.

there are multiple examples of negligent hiring claims being lost such as if the person had a history of driving violations but then beats up a customer - because reasonably you cannot foresee a relationship between careless driving and violence.

AEG's defense is playing to this difference which is a very valid and successful defense in negligent hiring. Now we will have to see if the jury differentiates between Propofol and pain killer issues, or will they think the type of the drugs won't matter.
 
Phillips already admitted he told Murray about Klein and I think Murray said in his infamous interview that Phillips told him about paying for Michael's expenses.

Did Phillips say this was at Michael's home when Michael was not present twice?

he was also giving money to Murray at Carolwood. You'll see it when I finish the summary.

This was because the doctor did not receive his monies from AEG who allegedly employed him.

That's a dismissed claim and judge's ruling states AEG had no control over Murray's treatment.

Exactly! So why does the defense continually bring up using propofol as a sleep aid when that is not part of the current claim? The current claim simply asks was Phillips/Gongaware aware that a cardiologist was treating Michael for sleep issues not if the cardiologist was using propofol as a sleep aid.

Regardless of what the written employment contract said, the criminal trial proved the actuality of the doctor negligently and fatally administer propofol to Michael. That is why he was there. Phillips and Gongaware have only successfully admitted to forgetfulness of discussions about Michael's sleep issues and that the doctor was there to handle it.
 
Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h

Putnam asked whether she found the proceedings funny. “I don’t think the case is funny at all sir,” Faye responded.
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h

Putnam asked if she found anything else and she quipped, “I was going through my drawers. I found some sexy things for my boyfriend and I.”
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h

Faye didn’t give the text messages to AEG’s lawyers. Putnam: ““I guess we’re getting them now.”
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h

Putnam asked Faye when she discovered the texts, and when she handed them over to plaintiff’s counsel. She said she turned them in today.
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h

... that helped her remember when things happened during prep for the “This Is It” tour. AEG attorney Marvin Putnam seemed surprised.
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h

It was about this time that the juror had an issue and court took a break. When court resumed, Karen Faye revealed she found texts (cont)
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h

She responded, “I thought his behavior was a little odd, but not out of the ordinary.”
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h

Faye said she thought his wig was too big. Putnam asked her about Jackson’s behavior.
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h

On seeing Jackson’s press conference announcing the London shows, Faye said, “I just thought he had a really bad hairpiece on, sir.”
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h

Faye on not talking to Jackson after his acquittal: “He had been through a horrible, horrible ordeal and I was by his side sir.”
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h

We're on the lunch break in Jackson vs. AEG Live. Court resumes at 2 p.m. Will try to get out a few more updates from the morning session.
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 2h

Looks like we're going back in session, so I'll update later.
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 2h

Faye didn’t talk to Jackson after his acquittal. Putnam asked Faye whether that upset her. “It didn’t upset me. No sir.”
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 2h

She said she talked to him every few months, but didn’t see him again until April 2009. She found out about ‘This Is It’ tour from the news.
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 2h

Putnam asked Faye about her interactions with Michael Jackson after his acquittal in the child molestation case.
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 2h

Faye said her deposition spanned five or six days. At one point, she held up her hands to show how huge the file was.
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 2h

Putnam asked whether Faye had reviewed her trial testimony. She said she hadn’t. She reviewed her deposition.
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 2h

Faye is expected to testify all day. We were only expecting about four hours of testimony today, and that was before this unexpected break.
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 2h

AEG defense attorney Marvin S. Putnam is cross-examining Faye. He started out stating it had been 7 weeks since she was last in court.
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 2h

Karen Faye remains on on the witness stand while the court is on its break. She is wearing a black dress and pearls.
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 2h

Court took a quick break about 15 minutes into the session because a juror needed a break. Said she needed to take an aspirin.
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Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 3h

We're about to go back in session in Jackson vs AEG Live. Karen Faye just walked into the courtroom to resume testifying.
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MIST;3856293 said:
The sympthoms can also depend on the other medicin Murray gave Michael.
There can be other explanations too.

Paranoia- they are killing me he could mean kill with words, it could even be critics and fans if the concerts were postponed or cancelled.

Chills people who are skinny are often frozen , they have less subcutaneous tissue

Weightloss I believe it depends most on ephedrine that Murray gave together with propofol but another thig that contributed to it could be that Michael drank red bull containing substances that affect hydration.He probably drank more red bull to get more energy, but you really don´t get more energy but you don´t feel hungry.

Difficulty with balance/Inability to perform dance steps Murrays medicin.If I had to say something else I would say it was psychological when date of the first concert approached .Who wouldn´t be nervous in Michael´s place.

Anxiety He had reasons to be worried.After what happened to him he didn´t know what people thought about him.He knew some fans loved him, but I think there were not that many fans on his official facebook before he died.He knew critics probably would write bad things about the concerts.

Hand tremors Was it more than one occasion?He could have been ill from something else, for example a flu.

Hallucinations I´ve read earlier about someone he met , I suppose she was going to get something and when she came back Michael talked to God and she didn´t want to disturb him.Michael believed in God and it was real to him.
Prayers can be a way to talk to God.

Memory Loss Stressed and 50 years, that´s normal.
It doesn´t help if he wrote the songs and sang them hundreds of times, it was years ago.

I use to say when you are 50 there are so many memories in your brain and in some places there are some dust.

It could be a combination of things,we will ever know.
I don´t see any justice for Michael in this trial.

These symptoms could also be from dehydration. MJ said when he was stressed he would not eat or drink. Dehydration can also kill you, cause all kinds of neurological problems. I agree the symptoms can have a number of causes, or a combination of them. I don't see any justice for MJ in this trail either.

re Prince's seeing Phillips at Carolwood--he really is unable to remember enough about these 2 incidents to make them understandable--the testimony is pretty useless IMO especially to establish that Phillips murdered MJ (latoya's talk about CM as the 'fall guy').
 
Some reading and interesting case examples below

Definitions

Negligent hiring and retention cases depend on two fundamental elements—knowledge of the employer and the foreseeability of harm to third parties. Generally, the injured party must show that the employee who caused the injury had some propensity, proclivity, or course of conduct that should have put an employer on notice of the possible danger. Assuming that the employer has access to some information about the employee, the employer must determine whether that information would be sufficient to impose liability on that employer if that employee later causes harm. To establish liability, the plaintiff must establish that the employer knew or should have known information that would have put the employer on notice of the possible danger to third parties

Liability often turns on the issue of foreseeability. In most states, foreseeability depends in large part on “the number and nature of prior acts of wrongdoing by the employee, and the nexus or similarity between the prior acts and the ultimate harm caused.” Other states rely more heavily on the “totality of the circumstances” which would indicate a propensity to cause harm.

Prior Similar Incidents : The foreseeability that some injury may occur due to the conduct of an exoffender is one element necessary to finding an employer liable.” For some courts, foreseeability can be established by “prior similar incidents” of the person who causes the harm, if the conviction was based on a prior incident that was sufficiently similar to the conduct in question. If there is sufficient
nexus between the harm caused by the employee and even a single isolated incident, the employer may be held liable.

----
That court noted the opinion of an expert in criminology that “the best indicator of potentially-dangerous future conduct is the history of a person’s past conduct.”

----

Similarly, the Illinois Court of Appeals has held that the employer need not foresee “the precise harm that did in fact occur” to be liable for the harm caused by its employee if, at the time of hiring, “a reasonably prudent person should have foreseen some harm to another as likely to occur.”

----

The dangerous employee’s prior conduct may be enough to impose liability on an employer if it is similar to the conduct that caused the harm in question. However, there is a lack of clarity as to what level of similarity is necessary to impose liability on the employer. For example, violent behavior by an employee generally is considered “predictable,” if that employee has been violent in the same way in the past.

-------------------------------

Examples of negligent hiring cases won

One Massachusetts case provides an example of this foreseeability. A bar employee’s prior convictions for assault with a dangerous weapon, assault with intent to commit rape, and kidnapping were enough to send to a jury the negligent hiring claim of a bar patron who was assaulted by the employee

----------------------------------------

Some connections between prior behavior and the act in question are fairly obvious. The U.S. Army was denied summary judgment in a claim by the victim of a sexual assault by one of its soldiers. The soldier, prior to his employment by the Army, had committed rape as a juvenile and had felony convictions including burglary and unlawful use of a weapon, including one felony less than twelve months prior. The court relied in part on statistics showing the high rate of recidivism among convicted rapists. The court also considered his “pattern” of engaging in felonies, stating that “his rape conviction was not an isolated incident, but was part of a pattern of violent,
felonious behavior by which he posed a danger to others.”

-------------------------

a jury verdict against a contractor was upheld based on a painter’s robbery and assault of homeowners where the contractor had been hired, based on the painter’s history of chemical dependence and recent theft of another client’s computer. The jury was justified in finding that the assault was foreseeable, even though the painter had no history of violence, based on the painter’s history of chemical dependence and recent theft of another client’s computer. The employer could have foreseen that the painter, “given access to private residences, could not only burglarize them but also injure residents."

------------------------

Examples of negligent hiring cases lost

The Supreme Court of South Dakota, for example, refused to hold an employer liable for an assault committed by an employee a prior conviction for resisting arrest in connection with a domestic violence situation, noting that the eight years since the conviction and a lack of violent behavior in the workplace made the event unforeseeable.

-------------------------------------------

The employee, a driver, had prior convictions of arson and aggravated assault; later, while on a driving assignment, he raped and
murdered a motorist. The employer may have known that a former girlfriend of the driver alleged that he assaulted her, but her complaint was subsequently dismissed. Additionally, the employer had been informed that at a younger age, the driver had been placed in a behavioral health hospital because of a drug addiction and a “hot temper.” Despite this history, the court concluded that “no reasonable juror could conclude from that information that [the employer] knew or should have known that [the driver]
was unfit for his job as a long-haul truck driver.”

---------------------------------------

an Ohio court refused to hold an employer liable for the sexual assault of a coworker committed by an employee who had a record of indecent exposure at a city park. The court noted that the exposure was not a “physical assault” and that even the police detective testified that “it would be quite a stretch” to predict the sexual assault based on the exposure that occurred six years earlier.

------------------------------

For example, a university was not liable when an intoxicated employee caused an accident while operating a university vehicle that he
accessed through his employment. Although the employee did not possess a valid driver’s license and had two DUI convictions, the court held that the accident was unforeseeable because his “employment history showed he had been a model employee, never had consumed alcohol at work or reported for work intoxicated, never had been in any motor vehicle accidents, never had taken any item from any employer without permission, and had no record of theft.” The court focused on the notion that the theft was unforeseeable, even though the use of alcohol while driving was consistent with past behavior and may have been more directly related to the accident than the theft.

----------------------------------------------

For example, a company that provided airport services to privately owned airplanes was not liable for harm caused by an employee after the employee took its plane for a “joy ride,” even though the employee had a military criminal record for a drug offense. This record, even combined with employee reprimands for failing to ground airplanes when refueling, being late and taking off from work without permission, were not enough to make the harm foreseeable.

--------------------------------------------------

an employer was not responsible for a burglary committed by its painters who had criminal records that included spousal battery, driving with a suspended license, possession of drugs, reckless driving, fleeing police, and driving with an expired license. The court concluded that these crimes were insufficiently related to the burglary to hold the employers liable for negligent hiring

-----------------------------------

an employer in Montana was not liable for the harm caused by an employee in a motor vehicle accident, even though the driver had
a record of several speeding tickets. Since the driver was not speeding when the accident occurred, the employer was not liable for negligent retention despite its prior knowledge of those speeding tickets

---------------------------------------------------

a gas station was not liable for its cashier’s shooting and killing of a customer and his son, despite his criminal record, where the
previous crimes were non-violent, and a previous shooting incident did not result in criminal charges. The employer knew about the prior convictions but believed that they were irrelevant to his duties, since most of the clerk’s contact with customers was oral communication through an intercom and/or cash drawer located in a bulletproof gazebo

----------------------------------------------------

a Michigan court dismissed a negligent hiring claim against an employer based on its employee’s sexual assault despite the employee’s prior conviction for fraudulent use of a financial device, since that conviction was not a predictor of the criminal sexual conduct

------------------------------------------------

another employer was found not liable for negligently hiring an employee who assaulted a coworker. The employee in question had a record of larceny and breaking and entering. The Magistrate judge stated that “[t]his information, standing alone, is insufficient to put [the employer] on notice that [the assaultive employee] was in the habit of misconducting himself in a manner dangerous to others.” The district court later agreed that the record did not indicate that the employer “knew or had reason to know at the time of hiring that [the employee] would be dangerous to women or that any assault by him would be foreseeable.”

------------------------------------------

a school district was relieved of liability for negligently hiring and retaining a high school teacher who had inappropriate interactions with a student, even though the school district may have known that the teacher had married a former student. This knowledge alone did not “put the school district on notice that [his] relationship with [his wife/former student] was improper, that he was in a habit of misconducting himself, or that he otherwise represented a threat to his students

--------------------------------

an employee’s “FEAR ME” tattoo was not enough to impose liability on a restaurant based on that employee’s assault of a customer. The employer’s liability was also undermined by the employee’s lack of any prior work history of an invalid nature, any prior criminal history, any pending charges or bad references, or even any violent tendencies after getting the tattoo. Like the tattoo, an employee’s admitted membership in a street gang prior to the start of employment, an arrest for loitering (under an ordinance later found unconstitutional), and one suspension from high school for missing class were not found to be enough to put an employer on notice that an employee who later assaulted a customer was unfit to work as a cook or that he was a danger to customers

-------------

For example, a trucking company was granted summary judgment despite the fact that a driver who raped a passenger in his truck had held seven jobs in less than a year and a half. The court found that this fact may have indicated that the driver “probably would not stay on a particular job for very long,” but concluded that his job history was “not evidence of a tendency to commit rape or to engage in deviant sexual activity or that he had a proclivity towards it.

enough to make a point?
 
Did Phillips say this was at Michael's home when Michael was not present twice?

the meeting when Michael came from Klein and seemed a little off - they testified Michael was late hence they were at the house when Michael wasn't present.

This was because the doctor did not receive his monies from AEG who allegedly employed him.

yes, would murray return that money to Michael and /or AEG when he got his salary or not?

Exactly! So why does the defense continually bring up using propofol as a sleep aid when that is not part of the current claim?

see the examples above post. I hope it makes it clear about the foreseeability issue.

Regardless of what the written employment contract said, the criminal trial proved the actuality of the doctor negligently and fatally administer propofol to Michael.

yes but it did not prove that anyone else knew what was happening. Prince did not know, Kai Chase did not know and so on. I'm failing to see how Phillips / Gongaware knew...
 
I don't get what is wrong for AEG not to pay Murray until the contracts were agreed and signed. ?

Shocked at Karen Faye's inappropriate jokes.
 
Thanks, you&meforever, for posting that part of Prince's testimony^


So...did the tete a tete at the bottom of the stairs occur on the second occasion because Phillips wanted to talk to Murray away from the rest of his company?



" Randy Phillips was talking to Dr. Tohme (Murray) again at the bottom of the stairs, grabbing his elbow again and talking. "

I think maybe the two occasions were very similar, it seems like Phillips likes to grabbing peoples elbows, or perhaps only Murrays.
 
ivy;3856748 said:
If there is sufficient nexus between the harm caused by the employee and even a single isolated incident, the employer may be held liable.

----

Similarly, the Illinois Court of Appeals has held that the employer need not foresee “the precise harm that did in fact occur” to be liable for the harm caused by its employee if, at the time of hiring, “a reasonably prudent person should have foreseen some harm to another as likely to occur.”

Everything is right there! ^^^

Ivy, I am not being combative. I am unaware of any other way to say this: a cardiologist is simply not qualified to deal with sleep issues especially in the manner Michael wanted those issues dealt with. We will see what Finkelstein and Ratner testify to and if Gongaware will be called back after their testimony.

This is why the plaintiffs’ lawyers have continually asked if Phillips/Gongaware (AEG’s employees one of which worked with Michael on tours in the past where he had sleep issues and the other who had conversations with the doctor) knew Michael’s sleep issues were being treated by the cardiologist. Payne said Gongaware was aware the doctor was treating Michael for sleep issues in his view.

This is a wrongful death civil trial. The plaintiffs do not have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt AEG knew propofol was used as a sleep aid like a criminal trial; they only have to show by the preponderance of the evidence (more likely to be true than not) that AEG knew a cardiologist was helping Michael with his sleep issues that occurred during Michael's tours. This is why Gongaware and Phillips continue to maintain they do not remember any conversation about the doctor treating Michael's sleep issues because it will hold them liable to this trial's one claim. Saying they do not remember does not mean the conversation did not happen. The jury has to decide if those conversations most likely happened or not whether they receive details of the conversation or not.

ivy;3856756 said:
the meeting when Michael came from Klein and seemed a little off - they testified Michael was late hence they were at the house when Michael wasn't present.

We do not know the dates the oldest is testifying to for one of the incidents. The last incident was the 24th.

yes, would murray return that money to Michael and /or AEG when he got his salary or not?

Your guess is as good as mine. My guess is I do not know.

LastTear;3856774 said:
I don't get what is wrong for AEG not to pay Murray until the contracts were agreed and signed. ?

Shocked at Karen Faye's inappropriate jokes.

There is nothing wrong with AEG not paying the doctor until the contract was signed. The problem was there should not have been a contract with the doctor and AEG.

I do not appreciate Faye's jokes either.
 
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Tygger;3856800 said:
Ivy, I am not being combative. I am unaware of any other way to say this: a cardiologist is simply not qualified to deal with sleep issues especially in the manner Michael wanted those issues dealt with.

and I agree with that

This is why the plaintiffs’ lawyers have continually asked if Phillips/Gongaware (AEG’s employees one of which worked with Michael on tours in the past where he had sleep issues) knew Michael’s sleep issues were being treated by the cardiologist.

I'm just not satisfied that the "Gongaware / Phillips knew" part was demonstrated and the "foreseeability" can be easily achieved here.

This is a wrongful death civil trial. The plaintiffs do not have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt AEG knew propofol was used as a sleep aid like a criminal trial; they only have to show by the preponderance of the evidence (more likely to be true than not) that AEG knew a cardiologist was helping Michael with his sleep issues that occurred during Michael's tours.

My whole point was about foreseeability.

Forget everything you know. and answer the following scenarios only on what I write

AEG version : Michael announced he had a pain killer issue in 1993 and he went to rehab. He looked clean the next tour and in 2009. He had doctors on tours before. He asked for a doctor in this tour saying his body is like a machine and needed to be taken care of. Murray is an internal medicine / cardiologist licensed in 4 states and has multiple clinics.

Do you reasonably foresee that Murray is a risk? Can you reasonably foresee that Murray would give Michael improper treatment that would result in homicide?

Jackson version : Michael announced he had a pain killer issue in 1993 and he went to rehab. Gongaware was told about Michael's pain killer issues in 1993. He had doctors on tours before. He asked for a doctor in this tour saying his body is like a machine and needed to be taken care of. Murray is an internal medicine / cardiologist licensed in 4 states and has multiple clinics. Murray had significant debts. Murray had 2 warnings on his record : one for not returning a call in a timely manner, one for not keeping records updated.

Do you reasonably foresee that Murray is a risk? Can you reasonably foresee that Murray would give Michael improper treatment that would result in homicide?
 
Tygger, my personal opinion for ethical reasons I agree with you regarding the contract. However, I don't know how xommon this is with other artists and doctors on tour.

Prince is not 100% sure on the 24th. It would have been useful if he had been asked if he could remember the time of day, or at least daytime or night time.
 
^^

Prince talks about two occasions.


Although it seems as Prince at first is confused about the dates he tells in the end that it was the night before.

The first time he saw Randy and Murray he told his dad the very next morning. Prince says he is not sure when that first time happened.

The second time he says "from what I can remember, it was the night before". (June 24th)

"Q now, did you -- do you remember the last day that you saw your father alive?
A yes.
Q and when was that?
A the day before he died.
Q all right. And do you remember your last conversation?
A it was when I talked to him on the phone about Randy Phillips being at the house.
 
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^^^ Yes I'm aware there were two occasions, I'm sure a member of staff can confirm the two occasions as I'm sure Prince wasn't home alone, and somebody let them in.
 
Here you go


Prince Jackson testimony about Randy Phillips at the house

Jackson Direct

Jackson Direct


Q Did you ever see Randy Phillips at your house before your father died?
A yes. A couple of times.
Q Did it surprise you to see him?
A uhm, sometimes it did, because he would come up unannounced when my dad wasn't at the house.
Q okay. Who was Randy -- was Randy Phillips with anyone at the home?
A he would come either with Dr. Tohme, or sometimes he would come with some other men I didn't recognize.
Q did you ever see him speaking to anyone at your house?
A I saw him talking to Dr. Tohme once by the stairs where -- when he came by himself one day.
Q did you ever see him speaking to Dr. Conrad Murray when your father wasn't present?
A that's when he talked to Dr. Murray only. I saw him talk to him twice, and that time when he came by himself, he was speaking to him in hushed whispers. I was bringing him water, and he was talking to Dr. Murray. He was grabbing his elbow and looked aggressive to me.
Q could you hear what they were saying?
A no.

I wonder what was the content of the conversation. :fear: Well, I can imagine.... :( And it's been four years and is very difficult to Prince remember all the details clearly. :thinking: Poor Michael, always surrounded by snakes. :cry: *big sigh*
 
"Paris is not going to be testifying," lawyer Deborah Chang told Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Yvette Palazuelos while the jury was out of the courtroom.

"We have a little girl in so much pain right now, she cannot come," Chang said.

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/t-jackson-breaks-stand-article-1.1384428


---------------------------------

Here is what Paris wrote to her daddy... (the note was not allowed as evidence in the trial though)

"Dear Daddy, I love you so much & I'm so glad I got a goodnight hug, Sleep well. I love you & good night. I'll see you tomorrow! XOX Goodnight. Lots of love, Paris Jackson"


Attorney Deborah Chang argued that the pencil-written note depicts how Paris "felt about her father" and the great love they shared.

A lawyer for AEG objected that it was hearsay, and the judge agreed. The note was not admitted as evidence.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...-breaks-stand-article-1.1384428#ixzz2XYYEwHnG
 
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Annita;3856733 said:
Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h
Putnam asked whether she found the proceedings funny. “I don’t think the case is funny at all sir,” Faye responded.

Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h
Putnam asked if she found anything else and she quipped, “I was going through my drawers. I found some sexy things for my boyfriend and I.”

Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h
Faye didn’t give the text messages to AEG’s lawyers. Putnam: ““I guess we’re getting them now.”

Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h
Putnam asked Faye when she discovered the texts, and when she handed them over to plaintiff’s counsel. She said she turned them in today.


Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h
... that helped her remember when things happened during prep for the “This Is It” tour. AEG attorney Marvin Putnam seemed surprised.

Anthony McCartney Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 1h
It was about this time that the juror had an issue and court took a break. When court resumed, Karen Faye revealed she found texts (cont)

I thought I read it wrong first but apparently not...Wowza... Cant stop laughing at the stupidity though.
 
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Why did karen Faye not turn the text messages she has on her phone prior .. why was she witholding this evidense ? I find it hard to believe she didn't realise she had them on her phone that she "saved" in her sexy drawer of all places. I find it very revealing that in her email ,she felt Michael may have been purposely trying to sabatage the TII. and she was absolving Kenny Phillips etc of blame. If she couldn't understand what was going on at that time , how could she expect they should have know.
 
Still on the testimony of Prince. I don't understand very well that part. What Joe has to do? Does anyone know?
.

I think maybe prince thought it was odd how ppl like aeg were allowed in and not family members
 
My uncle didn't eat candy, it was for the sick children he was bringing to Neverland," Taj explained.

Im sure thought michael said he did like candy and im sure i have seen footage of him eating it one time or another . i dont think michael was a candy fanatic but i think he did have it sometimes
 
I find it very revealing that in her email ,she felt Michael may have been purposely trying to sabatage the TII.



She should have been questioned on the issue of sabotage. It would be interesting what she would say about it in court. :fear: Like all others, Karen disappoint us. :perrin: Her e-mail > :puke: Unbelievable. :doh:
 
Karen is such a loony woman everything that comes out of her mouth is lies
 
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