Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[ivy]

Sorry I know this aint really an important thing at the moment lol, but did Omer sing in 'The Lost Children'? I thought it was Aldo Cascio and Prince talking/singning in the end and not Omer, but Prince said it was him and Omer.

Sorry again lol

You are correct , Baby Rubba (Aldo Cascio) together with MJs son Prince speaks in the track "The Lost Children".

 

[Ashtanga]

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 27 Jun
Bina asked about children being more exposed to the media after MJ died, like going on Oprah and Prince working on Entertainment Tonight.

"It's difficult, because they are 15 and 16," TJ said. "It's hard to maintain that private life."

Bina: As their guardian you haven't prevented them to be in the public eye
TJ: It's hard to do that when he's straight A student with honors

:bugeyed
Did Prince's straight A + honors pushed him to do Cardiff concert, Oprah, and other various appearances for family?
Sometimes answers from family members are some sort of moontalk, don't make any sense.

TJ said MJ raised the kids differently. They read a lot, didn't watch tv during the week, one movie a week if they earned, TJ explained

"Once my uncle passed, they came into my grandma's house in regular society, it was hard to maintain the same lifestyle," TJ expressed.

Grandma's house was regular society!!!!! Yeah sure, Paris is in hospital after living in nearly 4 years in that regular society.

:wtf2

 

[crillon]

what you are forgetting is that the estate is the one paying the bills and have plenty of resources to get this thing going on forever.

I find this so upsetting. Has the Estate given Katherine a blank check for this farce of a trial or did she request additional funds for this purpose? I really don't understand why they would fund this lawsuit drawing down money from Michael's Estate for his kids' future, because we know if she's awarded any money, she'll dole it out to her own kids.

Will the Estate be paid back?

 

[jamba]

I've been thinking about Ortega's suggestions in the emails of 6/20 re MJ's care--need for a psychiatrist to evaluate him, a person to care for his physical needs. Say if AEG had gone for this--would it have made a difference? I think NOT b/c as long as MJ and CM continued the propofol, it was literally a ticking time bomb that would sooner or later explode b/c CM was not administering propofol safely. He was risking MJ's life on a nightly basis due to the crazy way he was handling this dangerous anesthetic. In fact, the meetings that supposedly pressured him to act carelessly led him to act with more care--at first--in that he stopped propfol for a few nights (the 'weaning'). Then he went back to his old sloppy irresponsible ways. How could pressure cause him to be so negligent as to be on the phone and leave MJ unsupervised for so long that night? He was the opposite of pressured--too relaxed and inattentive. So even if AEG had been trying to get MJ to see a psychiatrist, find someone to help meet his physical needs, that was not going to affect the use of propofol in the short term and possibly not even in the long term.

Somehow CM had convinced MJ that he could get the propofol safely; he betrayed his duty to do no harm to his patient.

I wonder if CM had a habit of making these phone calls to pass the time on other nights? Does anyone know if this came up at the trial?

 

[Tygger]

Only one thing

Legally impossible. Only after the plaintiff finishes their side the defense can ask for a dismissal and the judge can dismiss the case if she thinks the plaintiffs haven't proven any of their claims or lack of evidence.

Apologies if I was not clear. Not the trial, Panish. The judge does have a say about the line of questioning and she has already made rulings regarding evidence. Example: we cannot see the note reported to have been written by Michael's daughter because it was not admitted as evidence.

He was risking MJ's life on a nightly basis due to the crazy way he was handling this dangerous anesthetic.

How could pressure cause him to be so negligent as to be on the phone and leave MJ unsupervised for so long that night? He was the opposite of pressured--too relaxed and inattentive.

I wonder if CM had a habit of making these phone calls to pass the time on other nights? Does anyone know if this came up at the trial?

Agreed!

I truly wish the doctor's actions over the course of April, May, June would have been taken into account to make a case for a murder charge. I believe only the phone records for the 25th were used because of the lesser charge but, I do not remember.

 

[passy001]

There is a problem with a written contract signed by the doctor to treat Michael for general care when he actually treated him for sleep issues and was not qualified as a cardiologist to do so

you are making the assumption that AEG knew that MJ was suffering from insomnia. and so far this has NOT been established. people only realized that Murray was the wrong doctor after MJ death and not before. To complicate matters, MJ was the one calling the shot as to whom he wanted as a doctor, leaving AEG with no chance whatsoever to do anything.

Ivy, you agreed a cardiologist was not qualified to handle sleep issues and that is all I attributed to you.

It is true that a cardiologist is not qualified to handle insomnia and other type of sleep issues no matter how benign there are. and many doctors have already testified to this both in this trial and the criminal trial. insomnia is a separate branch of medicine all together which requires a completely different skills set. The same is true for a dentist not qualified to treat heart problems or even cancer. these areas require different skills sets which fall outside the training a dentist typically receives.

 

[passy001]

I truly wish the doctor's actions over the course of April, May, June would have been taken into account to make a case for a murder charge. I believe only the phone records for the 25th were used because of the lesser charge but, I do not remember.

Murder requires intent something the prosecution could not prove. remember the law is about what you can prove. not what is right or wrong. Murray had no motive to kill a man who was supposed to pay him 150k per month for a couple of years. so even if the prosecution went the murder route, the jury would have sided with the defense unanimously.

 

[jrsfan]

I've been thinking about Ortega's suggestions in the emails of 6/20 re MJ's care--need for a psychiatrist to evaluate him, a person to care for his physical needs. Say if AEG had gone for this--would it have made a difference? I think NOT b/c as long as MJ and CM continued the propofol, it was literally a ticking time bomb that would sooner or later explode b/c CM was not administering propofol safely. He was risking MJ's life on a nightly basis due to the crazy way he was handling this dangerous anesthetic. In fact, the meetings that supposedly pressured him to act carelessly led him to act with more care--at first--in that he stopped propfol for a few nights (the 'weaning'). Then he went back to his old sloppy irresponsible ways. How could pressure cause him to be so negligent as to be on the phone and leave MJ unsupervised for so long that night? He was the opposite of pressured--too relaxed and inattentive. So even if AEG had been trying to get MJ to see a psychiatrist, find someone to help meet his physical needs, that was not going to affect the use of propofol in the short term and possibly not even in the long term.

Somehow CM had convinced MJ that he could get the propofol safely; he betrayed his duty to do no harm to his patient.

I wonder if CM had a habit of making these phone calls to pass the time on other nights? Does anyone know if this came up at the trial?

In one of his interviews he said he made phone calls so I think that was a normal practice for him after he thought Michael was fine. I think he adjusted the amount of propofol depending on Michael's needs. He did not say so but that makes sense to me for the 20 ml bottles & then the 100 ml bottles. When CM needed 20 ml or less to give to Michael, he used the smaller bottle & when it would require more than 20 ml, he would use larger bottle. No evidence for that but only thing that makes sense.

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger

Last Tear, I have never accused anyone of derailing the thread although I have been accused of derailing it. I honestly do not know the intention of any poster’s words except my own. I re-quote quite often to gain clarity.

There is no problem with the doctor treating Michael or his children for general care. There is a problem with a written contract signed by the doctor to treat Michael for general care when he actually treated him for sleep issues and was not qualified as a cardiologist to do so.

According to the contract Murray was to treat Michael for general care. General care can also mean sleep issues, having difficulty after a performance when adrenaline is running high. I don't believe anyone knew he was hired to 'treat' a chronic sleep disorder.

Again for me it comes down to Murray totally ignoring his ethics and being arrogant and negligent in the care of his patient.

 

[Bubs]

you are making the assumption that AEG knew that MJ was suffering from insomnia. and so far this has NOT been established. people only realized that Murray was the wrong doctor after MJ death and not before. To complicate matters, MJ was the one calling the shot as to whom he wanted as a doctor, leaving AEG with no chance whatsoever to do anything.

I agree with you about assumption that AEG (or anyone else) knew Michael suffering from insomnia.
After reading the testimonies, no one has brought up any evidence that AEG knew Michael's sleep problem. As for the testimonies so far, AEG saw there was a need to help MJ but they weren't qualified to pinpoint to the source of the problem. They thought it was lack of food, thus they talked getting nutrionist on board (re RP testimony), they also had suspicions of MJ's visits to Klien. They thought it was psychological, thus the talk getting therapist or psychologist on board (re KO email to RP). They thought he needed a personal trainer too. Dancers and other people testified about MJ losing weight, but no of them has mentioned MJ lack of sleep was to source of all problems, no even MJ's own oracle KF. You would think that she being MJ's friend for 27 yers and going on tours with him, she would have some clue what was going on, but she didn't say a thing regarding MJ's sleeping problem, she too wanted thrapist to MJ!

If KF, friend of MJ's for 27 years and going on tour with him several times couldn't pinpoint the problem, what are the chances that AEG people would have seen where the problem came from? She even asked from MJ's security about how ofter he went to see Klien, nothing about CM other than following:
Putnam: Did you express to KO any concern you had about Dr. Conrad Murray?
Faye: Yes, that he wasn't a psychologist

Overall, from testimonies I see that AEG people were trying to help MJ, but unfortunately they were looking into wrong direction.

As for KF letter to DiLeo :scratch:
That was KF belief that MJ was trying to get himself of the concerts! Different version of bagel theraphy.
I thought she was plaintiffs witness, but with that information she did more harm to them than help. Then again, KF suffers from bad case of foot in a mouth decease.

"Faye said people who didn't know MJ very well would probably not realize he lost lots of weight because of the several layers of clothes."
"Faye said that in Mar/Apr she told Michael she was concerned with his weight. She never talked to him about it during last weeks of his life"

Maybe that is the reason RP and others from AEG didn't see MJ losing weight as I don't think they saw MJ like KF and dancers saw him without layers of clothing. They easily could have thought that they were exaggerating and thought of MJ hasn't lost that much of weight? Interesting that she was already worried of MJ's weight in Mar/Apr, but if MJ lost weight even more after Mar/Apr, she wasn't worried enough to talk to directly to MJ?

 

[MIST]

Michael got propofol to sleep on but still he called Ortega very early in the mornings.I don´t know how often he called but it seemed to be several times.It doesn´t seem like Michael got to bed early to "sleep" for 8 hours.
Sometimes it seems he was busy with things before lunch.

Perhaps it was when Murray wasn´t there otherwise I wonder why Michael didn´t "sleep" at that time when he had a doctor who could give him propofol.

 

[Bubs]

^^^ It's interesting how TJ talks as if there isn't anything they CAN control as guardians. smh.

Same with Katherine. She said in Oprah that Paris begging to get something, and she couldn't deny what Paris wanted.

I don't know who was petitioner on this:
06/10/2013 Duties of Guardian
Filed by Attorney for Petitioner

but I sure hope that meeting was to remind and instruct both guardians of their duties.

 

[gerryevans]

I agree with you about assumption that AEG (or anyone else) knew Michael suffering from insomnia.
After reading the testimonies, no one has brought up any evidence that AEG knew Michael's sleep problem. As for the testimonies so far, AEG saw there was a need to help MJ but they weren't qualified to pinpoint to the source of the problem. They thought it was lack of food, thus they talked getting nutrionist on board (re RP testimony), they also had suspicions of MJ's visits to Klien. They thought it was psychological, thus the talk getting therapist or psychologist on board (re KO email to RP). They thought he needed a personal trainer too. Dancers and other people testified about MJ losing weight, but no of them has mentioned MJ lack of sleep was to source of all problems, no even MJ's own oracle KF. You would think that she being MJ's friend for 27 yers and going on tours with him, she would have some clue what was going on, but she didn't say a thing regarding MJ's sleeping problem, she too wanted thrapist to MJ!

So true. There is only one person who ABSOLUTELY knew the full extent of MJ’s sleep problem. And that was MJ. MJ could have specifically requested a sleep specialist if that was what MJ wanted. After all, he was inevitably paying for whatever physician he requested. It is highly unlikely that with his chronic insomnia he had not consulted a specialist previously. I think in the Murray trial it was mentioned, he had tried recommended remedies, but they hadn’t worked for him.

This trial certainly hasn’t shown how anyone would know sleep was the MAIN issue. Because despite how Phillips overdramatized the day of the announcement, I do believe MJ was VERY nervous and apprehensive about putting himself out there again and the reception he’d receive. How could he not be? Sleep was not the issue that day and yet he was anxiety ridden.

It’s reasonable to believe that his anxiety magnified as the tour progressed, expectations grew, and the production got bigger and bigger, and the kick off date grew closer and closer, to the point that the pressures manifested themselves, and he was not eating, or actually had the flu,or whatever. But still no one knew the root issue was sleep because by the time things got alarming and he was talking gibberish, sleep wasn’ t the underlining issue. It was Murray’s treatment itself IMO.

But how could people know it was Murray and not Klien, especially when you consider Murray had been MJ’s supposed primary physician for a few years and the preliminary insurance exam showed Michael was in good physical health. Why would it not be believed that Murray had contributed to him being in that good health?

If over a span of just six to eight weeks, MJ deteriorated, and he was known to be seeing both Murray and Klien, and it was Klien that people reported seeing a noticeable difference in MJ after seeing him, it’s reasonable to believe that of the two doctors, Klien was the problem, and Murray was not. Why in just 8 weeks, would it be thought Murray would have such a detrimental effect on him, when it realistically could have been believed he had helped keep him healthy years preceding?

It wasn’t until after June 25th that we found out Murray was a nutcase. Nothing in his history suggests that he was. It also was only after June 25th that it was learned that insomnia was MJ’s MAIN concern and why he wanted Murray. This trial has rambled on for two months now and still hasn't shown anyone KNEW what MJ’s MAIN issue was, so how could they know Murray was unqualified to treat it?

 

[Bubs]

It wasn’t until after June 25th that we found out Murray was a nutcase. Nothing in his history suggests that he was. It also was only after June 25th that it was learned that insomnia was MJ’s MAIN concern and why he wanted Murray. This trial has rambled on for two months now and still hasn't shown anyone KNEW what MJ’s MAIN issue was, so how could they know Murray was unqualified to treat it?

I agreed with all of your points but wanted to reply to last papragraph.
How exactly do you fix the problem, when you don't know where is the source of problem?


This is the last remaining claim left standing:
Claim 2 - Negligent Hiring, Supervision and Training

AEG argues they did not hire Murray and could not foresee the risks Murray posed.
Judge states there are triable issues.
Judge states that even though the contract was not signed, a jury must decide if Murray and AEG had a oral or implied in fact contract. Communications, Murray's expenses being budgeted and so on is listed as evidence. Judge makes a note that Michael retaining services of Murray before AEG hired him could be a factor in determining proportional damages and liability.


(My note, kids did some damage to plaintiffs case when they testified that MJ paid to CM in LV in cash and that payment type to CM continued to LA. Prince said it happened only once in LV, but there could've been other times that he wasn't aware of. Btw, his testimony was very confusing and he had forgotten some dates which is understandable, but defence will use that for supporting their case.)

AEG had argued that Murray was a licensed doctor and was not disciplined and Katherine argued they should have done a more detailed background check. Judge thinks this is a triable issue given that Gongaware had experience and knowledge about "tour doctors" and Michael's previous tours and "tour doctors".

(my note, KF had longer experience and knowledge of MJ's tours and doctors than Gongaware, she didn't see CM as the source of problem. Maybe plaintiffs should have thought twice calling KF on stand, as she inadvertently helped defences case).

Judge also thinks whether Murray's debt could have been a reason to foresee if such doctor under strong financial pressure may compromise his oath. This is another triable issue.

(This is where I strongly disagree with judge. He was in financial troubles before MJ asked him to be his personal doctor. There was nothing in his background to indicate that he did or would do something compromise his oath. He could have become one of those Hollywood doctors that wrote prescriptions to the stars and pay back his loans etc, but there was nothing as such. Only when he became MJ personal doctor, he threw away his oath, but how AEG would have know it before anything happened?)

 

[ivy]

Prince, Blanket Jackson celebrate dad's life amid death trial
By Alan Duke, CNN
updated 6:27 AM EDT, Mon July 1, 2013
Michael Jackson, the King of Pop, died on June 25, 2009. Four years after their father's death, Jackson's children -- Prince, Paris and Prince II, aka Blanket -- have stepped into the spotlight to honor their father's memory and create careers and identities of their own. One of the world's first glimpses at the kids was when photographers caught them leaning out of a limousine in Los Angeles in 2000. Here are more moments growing up Jackson:
HIDE CAPTION
Jackson children in the spotlight

>>

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
The AEG Live trial begins its tenth week
Prince and Blanket attend Cirque du Soleil's "Michael Jackson One" premiere in Las Vegas
Two jurors tell judge a woman approached them during a court break Friday
"She mentioned 'Please don't give anyone any money,'" one juror says

Los Angeles (CNN) -- A business management expert testifies Monday as lawyers try to prove Michael Jackson's last concert promoter is liable in the singer's death.

Human resources consultant Jean Seawright's analysis of AEG Live's hiring practices may lack the drama of last week's testimony by Jackson's oldest son, but it could be crucial for proving that the company negligently hired, retained or supervised Dr. Conrad Murray.

The trial of the lawsuit filed by Jackson's mother and three children begins its tenth week with their lawyers nearing the end of their case. AEG Live lawyers are expected to start presenting their defense around July 15.
AEG Live contends that Michael Jackson, not its executives, chose and controlled Murray, who is serving a prison sentence for an involuntary manslaughter conviction.

Prince Jackson testifies against AEG Doctor: Jackson had no REM sleep Paris: Michael said nanny 'lied a lot' Compare Michael Jackson in 2001 to 2009

If the jury decides that AEG Live executives have responsibility for Jackson's death from an overdose of the surgical anesthetic propofol, they will then have to decide how much he might have earned in the years he didn't get to live.

Prince and Blanket Dancing
Jurors would have learned a lot about Michael Jackson's work and worth if they had traveled with the Jackson family to Las Vegas over the weekend for the premiere of Cirque du Soleil's "Michael Jackson One" show.
Prince, 16, and Blanket, 11, sang and danced while watching the Cirque celebration of their father's music and life in a Mandalay Bay Casino theater. Paris, 15, was unable to attend because she is still hospitalized since last month's suicide attempt.


The children never saw their father perform live, one of his motivations for attempting his comeback concerts, but thanks to technology Jackson appeared to be back on stage for a ghostly performance of "Man in the Mirror."
Prince's appearance at the opening of the permanent show, which is different from Cirque's traveling "Immortal" show, came three days after he appeared in court to tell jurors about his father's life and last days.

His father often cried after talking to AEG Live executives as he prepared for his comeback concerts, his oldest son testified Wednesday.

"After he got off the phone, he would cry," Prince Jackson testified. "He would say 'They're going to kill me, they're going to kill me.'"

His father told him he was talking about AEG Live CEO Randy Phillips and his ex-manager, Dr. Tohme Tohme, Prince said.

Jury tampering?
Jurors can expect to be watched more closely by court bailiffs after an incident near the end of Friday's session. Two alternate jurors told the judge that a woman approached them during a court break.

"She mention 'Please don't give anyone any money,'" alternate juror No. 1 said.

Alternate juror No. 5 quoted the woman, saying "I just wanted to say not to award them any money."

While the woman apparently was opposed to the Jackson's lawsuit seeking billions of dollars in damages, AEG Live lawyer Marvin Putnam used the incident to suggest that the judge should crack down on Michael Jackson fans who wear Jackson shirts and carry signs of support for Katherine Jackson in the court hallway.

Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Yvette Palazuelos rejected Putnam's request, saying Jackson fans have free speech rights that she cannot limit.

Both alternate jurors said the incident would not affect their ability to make an impartial decision in the case.

 

[ivy]

but no of them has mentioned MJ lack of sleep was to source of all problems, no even MJ's own oracle KF. You would think that she being MJ's friend for 27 yers and going on tours with him, she would have some clue what was going on, but she didn't say a thing regarding MJ's sleeping problem, she too wanted thrapist to MJ!

If KF, friend of MJ's for 27 years and going on tour with him several times couldn't pinpoint the problem, what are the chances that AEG people would have seen where the problem came from?

if you go back to her testimony from 7 weeks ago, she attributed sleep issues to adrenaline. That Michael perform, he would have so much adrenaline and it would be hard for him to sleep and he would require 2-3 day breaks between the concerts so that his adrenaline levels will lower and he can sleep.

So while I agree with the effect of adrenaline and probably it made it worse for Michael, as you can see Karen wasn't aware of a chronic sleep problem / insomnia and the need or use of any drugs. She thought Michael slept when his adrenaline levels returned to normal.

This trial certainly hasn’t shown how anyone would know sleep was the MAIN issue. Because despite how Phillips overdramatized the day of the announcement, I do believe MJ was VERY nervous and apprehensive about putting himself out there again and the reception he’d receive. How could he not be? Sleep was not the issue that day and yet he was anxiety ridden.

It’s reasonable to believe that his anxiety magnified as the tour progressed, expectations grew, and the production got bigger and bigger, and the kick off date grew closer and closer, to the point that the pressures manifested themselves, and he was not eating, or actually had the flu,or whatever. But still no one knew the root issue was sleep because by the time things got alarming and he was talking gibberish, sleep wasn’ t the underlining issue. It was Murray’s treatment itself IMO.

and this is actually the example of what is reasonable to foresee. I mean look to how Phillips wrote about press conference "MJ is locked in his room drunk and despondent. He is an emotionally paralyzed mess riddled with self-loathing and doubt now that it is showtime. ". So according to Phillips's experience he saw an emotional issue and when the other problems were reported he assumed they were emotional as well.

If over a span of just six to eight weeks, MJ deteriorated, and he was known to be seeing both Murray and Klien, and it was Klien that people reported seeing a noticeable difference in MJ after seeing him, it’s reasonable to believe that of the two doctors, Klien was the problem, and Murray was not. Why in just 8 weeks, would it be thought Murray would have such a detrimental effect on him, when it realistically could have been believed he had helped keep him healthy years preceding?

It wasn’t until after June 25th that we found out Murray was a nutcase. Nothing in his history suggests that he was. It also was only after June 25th that it was learned that insomnia was MJ’s MAIN concern and why he wanted Murray. This trial has rambled on for two months now and still hasn't shown anyone KNEW what MJ’s MAIN issue was, so how could they know Murray was unqualified to treat it?

I agree and I also think they ran out of time. Phillips wasn't at the rehearsals and saw these first hand, Gongaware claims he was working. They started getting emails June 14 with a peak point in June 19. They got worried and they cared, they asked what's going on and they were told Michael was fine and Michael looked improved on June 23/24th.

So even if he might not be "fine" , he looked like he was improving.

I'm thinking if they had more time, if they had seen Michael having another bad episode, or if the second medical happened on July 6th, they could have realized something was really wrong and perhaps the concerts would be cancelled or postponed.

I'm also 99% sure if anything they suspected Klein. Which kinda makes sense as Propofol leaves the system quickly where as pain medicine would stay and show effects for several hours. The one time they saw Michael off, he came from Klein. Paps heavily reported Michael's visits to Klein. Phillips testified he told Murray if he was aware Michael seeing Klein. Phillips has an email which says Klein is scaring them. Faye asked bodyguards how many times a week Michael sees Klein. Dileo left a message to Murray telling him "to make a bloodwork to see what MJ is taking". (Well you don't call the person who is drugging Michael and ask them to do a blood work).

I think this answer some questions as why they did not suspect Michael was deteriorating under Murray's care, they thought it was Klein.

 

[crillon]

I agree with you about assumption that AEG (or anyone else) knew Michael suffering from insomnia.
After reading the testimonies, no one has brought up any evidence that AEG knew Michael's sleep problem. As for the testimonies so far, AEG saw there was a need to help MJ but they weren't qualified to pinpoint to the source of the problem. They thought it was lack of food, thus they talked getting nutrionist on board (re RP testimony), they also had suspicions of MJ's visits to Klien. They thought it was psychological, thus the talk getting therapist or psychologist on board (re KO email to RP). They thought he needed a personal trainer too. Dancers and other people testified about MJ losing weight, but no of them has mentioned MJ lack of sleep was to source of all problems, no even MJ's own oracle KF. You would think that she being MJ's friend for 27 yers and going on tours with him, she would have some clue what was going on, but she didn't say a thing regarding MJ's sleeping problem, she too wanted thrapist to MJ!

If KF, friend of MJ's for 27 years and going on tour with him several times couldn't pinpoint the problem, what are the chances that AEG people would have seen where the problem came from?

Overall, from testimonies I see that AEG people were trying to help MJ, but unfortunately they were looking into wrong direction.

That's a great point--even Karen Faye who toured with him and knew him as a "brother" (so she says), didn't suspect insomnia as being the problem, or maybe didn't think of it consciously as a "primary" problem that a doctor would be treating him for. All eyes were on other possibilities--drugs, nutrition, psychological issues--and the weight loss was the clue they were locked on until 6/19 when other more troubling symptoms (chills, incoherence, inability to eat) appeared. Even Lisa Marie Presley told Oprah that Michael had trouble sleeping, so it's hard to believe that people in his life for a long time--Faye, DiLeo, Ortega, Bush--wouldn't know. But, no one thinks insomnia is a potentially fatal condition or that a personal doctor could be doing anything to solve it that would involve dangerous drugs or practices. But, I don't think the sleep issue was on anyone's radar.

The other issue that keeps coming up is Michael's health "deteriorating over 8 weeks" and other than the weight loss and the dramatic symptoms of 6/19 what else was there? Nothing more than rapid weight loss primarily. So, this to me seems like more "the sky is falling" hyperbole and hand wringing because those close to him suspected drugs and not from Murray, according to testimony, but from Klein. Gongaware testified the only time he saw Michael under the influence of something is when he returned from an appointment with Dr, Klein and Phillips said they didn't know what was going on at Dr. Klein's office, but it "scared them to death" (or words to that effect) re/getting him to pass the necessary tests for insurance coverage. They even asked Murray to find out what was going on at Klein's office, according to testimony from G or P. Maybe THAT was the subject of Phillips meeting with Murray--did he find out yet?

 

[Bubs]

if you go back to her testimony from 7 weeks ago, she attributed sleep issues to adrenaline. That Michael perform, he would have so much adrenaline and it would be hard for him to sleep and he would require 2-3 day breaks between the concerts so that his adrenaline levels will lower and he can sleep.

So while I agree with the effect of adrenaline and probably it made it worse for Michael, as you can see Karen wasn't aware of a chronic sleep problem / insomnia and the need or use of any drugs. She thought Michael slept when his adrenaline levels returned to normal.

Thanks Ivy.
Michael wasn't even performing, he was just rehearsing. Who would think that someone would need any medicine to wind down from rehearsals? I think what Gerry said in her post is what most likely happened. Getting closer and closer to tour start date, the more nervous MJ got = less and less sleep.


and this is actually the example of what is reasonable to foresee. I mean look to how Phillips wrote about press conference "MJ is locked in his room drunk and despondent. He is an emotionally paralyzed mess riddled with self-loathing and doubt now that it is showtime. ". So according to Phillips's experience he saw an emotional issue and when the other problems were reported he assumed they were emotional as well.

Agree.


I agree and I also think they ran out of time. Phillips wasn't at the rehearsals and saw these first hand, Gongaware claims he was working. They started getting emails June 14 with a peak point in June 19. They got worried and they cared, they asked what's going on and they were told Michael was fine and Michael looked improved on June 23/24th.

I'm thinking if they had more time, if they had seen Michael having another bad episode, or if the second medical happened on July 6th, they could have realized something was really wrong and perhaps the concerts would be cancelled or postponed.

I'm in full agreement with time running out.
I can only imagine of the outcry from fans, family and Michael himself if they went and cancelled or postponed the tour :bugeyed

I'm also 99% sure if anything they suspected Klein. Which kinda makes sense as Propofol leaves the system quickly where as pain medicine would stay and show effects for several hours. The one time they saw Michael off, he came from Klein. Paps heavily reported Michael's visits to Klein. Phillips testified he told Murray if he was aware Michael seeing Klein. Phillips has an email which says Klein is scaring them. Faye asked bodyguards how many times a week Michael sees Klein. Dileo left a message to Murray telling him "to make a bloodwork to see what MJ is taking". (Well you don't call the person who is drugging Michael and ask them to do a blood work).

I think this answer some questions as why they did not suspect Michael was deteriorating under Murray's care, they thought it was Klein.

I agree, most of people testified suspects about Klein, not CM. I assume CM's lawyers had some information and emails too, as they too tried to pin MJ's death on Klien, still do.

I was thinking the remaining claim:

Judge states that even though the contract was not signed, a jury must decide if Murray and AEG had a oral or implied in fact contract. Communications, Murray's expenses being budgeted and so on is listed as evidence. Judge makes a note that Michael retaining services of Murray before AEG hired him could be a factor in determining proportional damages and liability.

Judge also thinks whether Murray's debt could have been a reason to foresee if such doctor under strong financial pressure may compromise his oath. This is another triable issue.

I'm not sure which of the above claims the following falls, but I was thinking about CM ordering and treating MJ with propofol before MJ introduced him to the AEG and told them that CM is going to be his tour doctor. In that case, how could AEG foresee anything if CM was already treating MJ with propofol, by then he already threw away his oath, messy!

 

[Big Apple2]

Not that Klein's crazy behind would ever make it to the witness stand, but is he on anybody's witness list?

Also, this is what I call "THE WRAP UP." Time for Mr. Panish to wrap it altogether regarding his presentation.

So who's up next - who's gonna help Mr. Panish wrap up his case?

 

[crillon]

Not that Klein's crazy behind would ever make it to the witness stand, but is he on anybody's witness list?

Also, this is what I call "THE WRAP UP." Time for Mr. Panish to wrap it altogether regarding his presentation.

So who's up next - who's gonna help Mr. Panish wrap up his case?

Jean Seawright--an HR consultant. She'll comment on AEG's hiring practices and since she's a witness for the plaintiffs, she'll surely give an opinion that "AEG hired Murray." AEG will likely have their own expert to counteract anything she says when they present their case.

I don't think Klein is listed as a witness, but he should be considering the role he played in giving MJ drugs that likely made his insomnia worse. I put Klein in the Thome category of the creepy & shady characters in Michael's life.

 

[Bubs]

That's a great point--even Karen Faye who toured with him and knew him as a "brother" (so she says), didn't suspect insomnia as being the problem, or maybe didn't think of it consciously as a "primary" problem that a doctor would be treating him for. All eyes were on other possibilities--drugs, nutrition, psychological issues--and the weight loss was the clue they were locked on until 6/19 when other more troubling symptoms (chills, incoherence, inability to eat) appeared. Even Lisa Marie Presley told Oprah that Michael had trouble sleeping, so it's hard to believe that people in his life for a long time--Faye, DiLeo, Ortega, Bush--wouldn't know. But, no one thinks insomnia is a potentially fatal condition or that a personal doctor could be doing anything to solve it that would involve dangerous drugs or practices. But, I don't think the sleep issue was on anyone's radar.

It is hard to fully comprehend/understand when someone tells to that you have trouble @ sleeping if you yourself don't have any experience of it. There have been people in my life telling at some stage that they have problems with sleep, but I didn't understand the seriousness of it untill I went a little over a week without sleep. It was only then, I fully understood what Michael went through in daily basis, and thats why I can understand that not every people jump when someone tells them their sleep problems or other problems.

I have a habit of drawing examples from my own life in order to make sense for all this what comes up in trial, and how people might behave or react on certain situation. I'm not saying that all people react or behave like me, but it gives me guideline that it is possible that some people behave or react the same way as I do


Btw, Prince mentioned in his testimony that since his dad death he hasn't been able to sleep.
I hope this time Katherine takes pro-active steps and get some help for Prince's sleep issues before he finds himself with the same problem than his dad.
She should have address MJ sleep problem years ago, and not wait until he dies so she can sue someone else for not noticing that MJ had insomnia.

 

[Big Apple2]

Jean Seawright--an HR consultant.

Thanks!

I was thinking more of a SMOKING GUN receipt showing that AEG was paying for MJ'S propofol.

BAM! Now that's what I call a Smoking Gun, but that's just me.

 

[crillon]

Thanks!

I was thinking more of a SMOKING GUN receipt showing that AEG was pay for MJ'S propofol.

BAM! Now that's what I call a Smoking Gun, but that's just me.

Ha! Yea, I think the plaintiff's case will end with a whimper.

 

[ivy]

Actually I thought Karen Faye hurt the "losing weight" argument

Karen Faye : ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 1h
Putnam: Did you ever testify his work weight was 120 pounds?
Faye: Lisa Marie Presley gave me that information

"Lisa Marie Presley and I became friends and she told me MJ liked to be at 120 pounds," Faye said.

Travis Payne

Payne told the jury he advised MJ he was looking thin and MJ said he was getting down to his fighting weight. "I had no reason to doubt him" (ABC7) Michael Jackson said, "I'm getting down to my fighting weight," Payne testified.(LAtimes) Payne said he noticed that Jackson looked thin but was satisfied with the singer’s response.

“He said, ’I’m getting down to my fighting weight,' which I took to mean that he was preparing for the performances,” Payne testified. (LAtimes)

So suddenly it became MJ wanted to be 120 lbs and he was 136 lbs at the time of death.

edited to add : IV fluids increase weight , the cells retain the water and several lbs weight increase is reported. the weight gained depends on the amount of IV given.

Also, this is what I call "THE WRAP UP."

It looks like Jacksons have 8 more days. This week is 3 days only, with July 4th and (probably) 5th being holiday. They said they will end their case on the week of July 8th. Assuming they rest on Friday, that makes around 8 days.

 

[Bubs]

Not that Klein's crazy behind would ever make it to the witness stand, but is he on anybody's witness list?

Also, this is what I call "THE WRAP UP." Time for Mr. Panish to wrap it altogether regarding his presentation.

So who's up next - who's gonna help Mr. Panish wrap up his case?

I don't think either side has Klein, there is not enough time in the world that they could accomondate his ramblings

Wrap up? There is the whole punch of Jacksons coming up to tell that how wonderful brother, uncle, son, cousing he was to them and everybody was out to get him, or murder him. I personally cannot wait when plaintiffs are finished so this trial can really start. So far we have seen all sort of irrelevant (my own opinion and I'm entitled to it) testimonies, so hopefully AEG brings something new on the table.

 

[crillon]

It is hard to fully comprehend/understand when someone tells to that you have trouble @ sleeping if you yourself don't have any experience of it. There have been people in my life telling at some stage that they have problems with sleep, but I didn't understand the seriousness of it untill I went a little over a week without sleep. It was only then, I fully understood what Michael went through in daily basis, and thats why I can understand that not every people jump when someone tells them their sleep problems or other problems.

I have a habit of drawing examples from my own life in order to make sense for all this what comes up in trial, and how people might behave or react on certain situation. I'm not saying that all people react or behave like me, but it gives me guideline that it is possible that some people behave or react the same way as I do


Btw, Prince mentioned in his testimony that since his dad death he hasn't been able to sleep.
I hope this time Katherine takes pro-active steps and get some help for Prince's sleep issues before he finds himself with the same problem than his dad.
She should have address MJ sleep problem years ago, and not wait until he dies so she can sue someone else for not noticing that MJ had insomnia.

That's true and it's all so subjective. I've had sleep issues related to hormones, but I would not put it into a category of life-threatening. Yet, I fully understand what Michael must have been going through. Using personal experiences if hopefully what the jury will do in figuring out why people behave the way they do. It's common sense, but the trial is such a mess and the jury has a lot of ish to wade through to get to usable evidence.

 

[Bubs]

I just checked the witness list, only Jacksons has Klein in their list :bugeyed
I cannot say I'm happy about it, knowing Klein ramblings about Michael to the tabloids :doh:

Ivy, what do you mean by this: Actually I thought Karen Faye hurt the "losing weight" argument?

 

[ivy]

I just checked the withness list, only Jacksons has Klein in their list :bugeyed
I cannot say I'm happy about it, knowing Klein ramblings about Michael to the tabloids :doh:

yeah he was at the last list, although I would personally not put him on the stand as he's quite unstable. Plus I think he might be uncooperative. He avoided all legal events in his bankruptcy case resulting in taking over his property by court order and twice being issued an arrest warrant. He avoided deposition subpoena in Lloyds case. Even he was ambushed by 3 servers, he refused to appear and hence required Lloyds to ask court for an court order to force him sit down for deposition. Given his track record he might be in contempt of that as well.

Ivy, what do you mean by this: Actually I thought Karen Faye hurt the "losing weight" argument?

I meant her testimony of "MJ liked to be at 120 pounds" combined with Payne testimony "he told me he was getting down to his fighting weight" seems to make the weight loss intentional and voluntary on Michael's part.

 

[PrɛttyღBµʈʈɇrƒℓу]

I don't know if that will answer your question, but I have begun to sort the emails that were posted on Panish's website tu put them here in chronological order, and there's this on june 20th :

http://www.psblaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Exhibit-304-JB-16-21.pdf

On 1 st page : Branca answers a mail from Phillips. It's an report of the june 20th meeting, and in one pargraph Phillips mentions that Joe and Leonard Rowe are trying to involve Michael in a family event (AllGood). Branca answers twice : on page 1 & 4 . On page 4, he answers specifically about the family event.

Thank you for your attention, bouee. Rereading articles of the time of the testimony of the Prince, I think he is saying that Murray and AEG personnel, had free access to the house, but his grandfather and "people like him" no.

It's contradictory because he also said that Michael don't fight, was like his grandmother and to this, he called his Grandfather. Anyway, Michael has demonstrated many times that he did not trust totally in Joe. May be it.

The only relief at last week, were the videos and photos that illustrate the coexistence of Michael with his children he loved so much. But also the sadness and pain of his absence for these children.

Let's see what awaits us this week.

 

[AliCat]

It makes more sense, according to Prince Jackson's testimony of why Thome Thome was still in the picture, even though Thome Thome was no longer Michael Jackson's Business Manager, it was buying real estate for Michael Jackson. That's how Michael Jackson and Thome Thome originally met, through a real estate transaction. That of saving "Neverland" from going to auction or foreclosure, Thome Thome's former employer, "Colony Capital," came into play, along with Tom Barrack, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Colony Capital. Michael wanted to buy a distressed property in Las Vegas and through Thome Thome's networking capabilities, found this property for Michael and was probably going to get a great deal on the property in Las Vegas.

"Colony has applied its investment strategy throughout a variety of market conditions. Through the identification of supply-demand source imbalances in capital, product types and information availability, Colony achieves attractive risk-adjusted returns by investing in real estate and real estate-related debt investments, non-performing loans, distressed assets, real estate-dependent operating companies, and select commercial and residential development opportunities throughout the world."

http://www.colonyinc.com/overview.htm