Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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Thanks for the post about hearsay.

I still don't get why Frank's voicemail was allowed during LAPD Martinez testimony. I guess that will remain a mystery..

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...mony-Summary?p=3817429&viewfull=1#post3817429

LAPD Detective Orlando Martinez Testimony (continued)

Jackson direct(continued)

Jackson’s lawyer Panish continued to go over Murray’s credit records. It showed Murray was behind his mortgage (ABC7)

Martinez said he got Dr. Murray's credit reports from Experian and Equifax, but not Transunion, since they didn't accept the subpoena.(ABC7)

Voicemail of Frank Dileo that he left to Murray 5 days before Michael died had been played in the courtroom (AP).

Panish played a voicemail Frank DiLeo left to Dr. Murray on June 20, 2009: "I'm sure you're aware he had an episode last night. He's sick". Also in the voicemail, left on June 20, 09 DiLeo told Dr. Murray he thought MJ needed to get a blood test done to see what was wrong (ABC7)

Phone message to Murray left by Jackson’s manager Frank DiLeo on June 20, 2009.

“I’m sure you’re aware he had an episode last night. He’s sick. Today’s Saturday, tomorrow I’m on my way back. I’m not gonna continue my trip. Uh, I think you need -- I think you need to get a blood test on him today. I -- I -- we gotta see what he’s doing. All right. Thank you.” (LATimes)

Jackson lawyer Panish said he believed that DiLeo had spoken with an AEG executive just prior to making the phone call. (LATimes)
 
honestly you are now adding fuel to the fire. I did my best to not reply (to the last post) and ignore the accusations about me. Do you really want to start it again? Because I'm still angry about those and I can sure can reply in a great detail. so perhaps it's best to not to get involved in an exchange that you aren't a part of to start with and especially when one party chose to not respond anymore.

I don't want to start it again, not my point, quite the opposite actually . And there is really no need to get angry. But I do think that it's pretty difficult on this thread to be against the "mainstream" opinion, or against yours. Don't feel attacked by anyone, because your are NOT.

We all know, whatever our opinion is, the work you do here, and we all respect it a lot. Without you, there would be no grounds for discussion, because you provide unbiaised info in the summaries threads. I participated a little bit during the Murray trial an a very little bit in this one with the e mails, I know it is time consuming and not always easy.

I think everyone is grateful for the work you do, and by everyone I mean everyone.

I think there's a big misunderstanding about some things Tygger or myself have told you, but I don't want to discuss it here, publicly. I'm ready to PM if you want.
 
About hearsay

- during Karen Faye's testimony the alleged statements by Michael about AEG, tour and so on was objected on the grounds of hearsay and Karen was instructed to not say what Michael told her. There were several reasons for that - one being the cross examination issue as Michael cannot be cross examined about such statements. For example hypothetically if Michael said "I hate Randy Phillips" and Karen was able to say that, there's no way to cross examine and challenge that. Second of all it's prejudicial, such statement might make jury form negative opinions about Phillips and does not allow for a fair determination of who hired Murray. (AEG lawyers have stated that in a wrongful death lawsuit decedents statements cannot be used against defendants - Jacksons lawyers disagree)
.


Doesn`t that mean in case of Paris and Prince everything they told Michael has said them about Phillips or AEG it can`t be used because it`s hearsay?
 
I don't want to start it again, not my point, quite the opposite actually . And there is really no need to get angry. But I do think that it's pretty difficult on this thread to be against the "mainstream" opinion, or against yours. Don't feel attacked by anyone, because your are NOT.

We all know, whatever our opinion is, the work you do here, and we all respect it a lot. Without you, there would be no grounds for discussion, because you provide unbiaised info in the summaries threads. I participated a little bit during the Murray trial an a very little bit in this one with the e mails, I know it is time consuming and not always easy.

I think everyone is grateful for the work you do, and by everyone I mean everyone.

I think there's a big misunderstanding about some things Tygger or myself have told you, but I don't want to discuss it here, publicly. I'm ready to PM if you want.

Hey bouee, I know this post is being directed to Ivy, but I wanted to thank you for interjecting the acknowledgement to her for all she does. I know we do it often but it can never be enough for the trials because of all the effort involved. I especially like seeing it by someone who has a different perspective from many about the information. We, as MJ fans, definitely know what it's like to go against the mainstream and I do believe the opinion as being expressed by many posting is not in favor of this suit. I definitely feel it should not have been filed and still do not think anything has been revealed to justify it, certainly not to the extent of further degrading MJ, involving his children, and the ridiculous amount of monies being mentioned for an award. AEG are scum, but I'm still not seeing how they factor to the extent to justify the suit.

Anyway...that we can come here with opposing thoughts, but still remember that we are all here because of our MJ love, and appreciation of our fan community, is a good thing. So thank you for the tone of your post and again to Ivy for all the work she does, and everyone for keeping things as civil as possible, even though where MJ is involved, it's not always easy to do. The man just inspires passion on all sides.

And, yippee, it's the weekend!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Interesting.

This expert suggested some of the symptoms Michael exhibited could have been from sleep deprivation and if they persisted he could have possibly died from sleep deprivation. When the testimony is available, I am interested in reviewing the defense successfully dismissing his complete testimony based on the suggestions here about FFI (a trait being placed on Michael) and micro-sleep.

Why should anyone attempt to contribute any of Michael’s symptoms to sleep deprivation? Let those symptoms exist solely because of substance abuse. Let the reason Michael used propofol be that he already had dependency issues and truly enjoyed the feeling of waking up refreshed after being anesthetized, not that he was trying to sleep.

Bouee, I appreciate your thoughts. Ivy, has not been shy before when disagreeing with my posts and I do not believe she is being so now. I have not been shy about disagreeing with her posts and I am not being so now.

Jamba, I appreciate your thoughts but, in this instance, I will continue to hold onto my own.

Now, as Gerryevans said, it is the weekend and I will go about my activities. Please forgive me if I do not respond post haste.
 
I wish Michael could have gotten the rest and sleep he needed. There would have been no Murray and he would still be here. I don't know how much sleep Michael got in a day or a week. All I know is that Murray was making him sick because he didn't know what he was doing with the propofol and the other medications. Murray should not have been helping Michael this way. A real doctor who cared about the person caring for would have gotten him real help. People feel bad for the Jacksons, AEG or even Murray. I feel sorry for Michael.
 
Michael Jackson: How Long Can You Survive Without Sleep?

Megan Gannon, News EditorDate: 22 June 2013 Time: 10:31 AM ET
A doctor told a courtroom this week in Los Angeles that Michael Jackson went without "real" sleep for 60 days leading up to his death. The testimony raises questions about how long a person can survive without shut-eye, and whether it matters what type of sleep a person slips into when they snooze.

Jackson had been receiving nightly infusions of propofol, a surgical anesthetic, for two months to treat his insomnia as he prepared for a series of comeback shows.

Even if the drug made Jackson feel well rested, it would have sent him into a rather superficial slumber each night, said Dr. Charles Czeisler, a Harvard sleep scientist who testified at the trial against the pop star's concert promoter this week, according to CNN.

Czeisler reportedly told the courtroom that propofol suppresses rapid eye movement (REM) sleep. If Jackson hadn't died primarily of an overdose of the anesthetic (and another sedative) on June 25, 2009, the lack of REM sleep may have eventually killed him, Czeisler said.

"It would be like eating some sort of cellulose pellets instead of dinner," Czeisler was quoted as saying by CNN. "Your stomach would be full, and you would not be hungry, but it would be zero calories and not fulfill any of your nutrition needs."

Is REM sleep important?

While sleep deprivation over time has been linked to obesity and chronic diseases, such as diabetes and breast cancer, it's difficult to pin those side effects on a specific aspect of sleep, and not all scientists agree that REM sleep has crucial restorative powers in itself.

"There's no evidence that REM sleep deprivation by itself will kill anyone," Dr. Jerome Siegel, professor of psychiatry at UCLA, told LiveScience.

REM sleep is characterized by heightened brain activity and is the state when dreams are at their most intense. The phase is thought to originate in the area at the base of the brain called the pons. Oftentimes damage to this critical part of the brain spells death. However, there are some cases of people who have survived an injury to this region and are living normal lives, but without ever experiencing REM sleep again, said Siegel, who is also affiliated with the VA Greater Los Angeles Healthcare System.

Israeli researcher Peretz Lavie followed a patient who had lost REM sleep after a brain injury. The man went to law school and became the puzzle editor for Tel Aviv newspaper.


And if it's true that a lack of REM sleep can kill you, then no one should be taking MAOIs and SSRIs, common classes of antidepressants, Siegel said; these drugs have been known to inhibit the dream-making state of slumber.

The Jackson case does underscore what little scientists know about the purpose of sleep, let alone a specific phase. One thing researchers do know is that people are more alert when they wake up from REM sleep.

"You can see an evolutionary advantage for having this state that allows you to be alert when you're awakened," Siegel said.

How long can you stay awake?

Randy Gardner holds the record for the longest a person has ever voluntarily gone without sleep, staying awake for 264 hours (about 11 days) when he was 17 for a school science fair project in 1965.

No person has ever definitively died from lack of sleep alone, and it's ethically dicey to explore those boundaries in the lab. Last year, a 26-year-old Chinese man attempting to watch every game of the European Cup reportedly died after staying awake for 11 days. Reports at the time suggested he was drinking alcohol and smoking throughout the sleepless soccer-watching binge, making it difficult to rule sleep deprivation the primary cause of death.

In famous experiments in the 1980s at the University of Chicago, scientists kept rats from sleeping by jolting them awake every time they nodded off. The animals consistently died within two weeks, but Siegel thinks their deaths may have had more to do with the surge of the stress hormone cortisol and increase in blood pressure every time they were woken up than the sleep deprivation.

"What they're dying of is being repeatedly awakened which is quite different from sleep deprivation," Siegel said. "If you stay up all night, none of this happens."


http://www.livescience.com/37652-michael-jackson-rem-sleep-deprivation.html
 
@Tygger, I agree it would be interesting to read his whole testimony but given how expensive the transcripts are I doubt we have the funds to include his as well. But from he court tweets we can see hat he did concede that he didn't actually know how many times Michael received propofol and that the symptoms could be attributed to something else.

Imo he was brought in so he could testify to this:
In his opinion, if he had been properly diagnosed for his sleep disorder, it would not have interfered with his tour or many in the future
 
^^^^^Lack of sleep alone - without any other cause ie the genetic condition. FFI
 
Michael Jackson's Fatherhood: New Details Emerge in Courtrooms
ARTICLESNEWS
By Anthony McCartney, Associated Press | June 22, 2013 1:42 PM EDT

Courtrooms have supplied the epilogue to Michael Jackson's life. They've provided the forum where his debts have been settled, his final days dissected and his life depicted as a cautionary tale.

In nearly four years of court proceedings, two juries have watched Jackson come to life on video screens. They've watched him spin, dance, and then disappear. They've heard his voice, seen his handwriting and viewed photos of his lifeless body.

His role as a father has been described in little more than platitudes. Until now.

The jury hearing a civil case filed by the superstar's mother — against AEG Live LLC, the promoter of Jackson's ill-fated concerts — are experiencing details of a world previously held under lock and key. They've heard of extravagant birthday parties, secret family outings and the leg-clinging devotion of his children.
Jackson shielded the youngsters from the public eye, home-schooling them and often hiding their faces in public.

Away from the cameras, Jackson tried to create an environment of love, attention and special moments for his children, Michael Joseph "Prince" Jackson Jr., Paris-Michael Katherine Jackson and Prince Michael "Blanket" Jackson.

The following are some of some of the stories they've told. They present a portrait of Jackson as a father that outsiders never saw.

The final month of Jackson's life was a busy time. There were rehearsals for "This Is It," planning meetings and film shoots for a series of mini-movies that would precede some of his greatest hits at the London shows.

Jackson brought his children to the shoot for a "Smooth Criminal" video that culminated with Jackson leaping through a window while being shot at by Humphrey Bogart.

Alif Sankey, a backup dancer on the original video who was working on the comeback concerts, sat next to Paris during the shoot. The 11-year-old wanted to share a secret and opened up her purse.

It was filled with candy, Sankey recalled. Jackson didn't want his children to eat sweets, and Paris asked Sankey to keep it quiet.

The dancer noticed something else inside the purse — tiny picture frames with images of her father. "Her purse was full of candy and pictures of Daddy."

Despite being home-schooled, there was no shortage of companions for Jackson's children. Chef Kai Chase recalled numerous pets in the mansion that Jackson was renting while he prepared for his "This Is It" shows. There was the talking bird, Siberia, who whistled at pretty women. The children also had a chocolate Labrador named Kenya, whom Chase bought a cookbook for so she could bake him treats and a birthday cake. Two cats, named Katie and Thriller, also roamed the house.

During opening statements of the civil trial, some of the jury's first exposure to life in the Jackson home came from footage shot on a Christmas morning several years ago. Jackson's ode to his children, "You Are My Life" played as jurors watched a video of a Christmas morning from years ago of Prince, Paris and Blanket gleefully receiving their gifts, which included the puppy, Kenya.

Chase had been working at Jackson's home for only a few days when it came time to prepare for Paris' 11th birthday. She wanted a Michael Jackson-themed party. All around the dining room, posters of the King of Pop were hung alongside album covers and other pictures. Jackson's hit songs played as the family ate cheese pizza, hot wings and banana splits, Chase recalled.

Paris' birthday cake was decorated with Lilo & Stitch, her favorite Disney characters. But the festivities weren't over. Jackson escorted the children into the backyard, where they watched a private Cirque du Soleil-style circus, complete with men on stilts and a woman performing in a giant balloon. Chase watched from the kitchen window and later described the scene as "the most beautiful expression of love I've ever seen."

Jackson spent the final months of his life in a rented mansion in the upscale Holmby Hills section of Los Angeles. The mansion had all the amenities fit for a pop superstar — a palatial entryway, staircase and parlor and in the basement, a home theater and dance studio. The house was a hub of activity, with security guards posted outside, a pair of housekeepers, a nanny for the children and on many days, a personal chef stationed in the kitchen.

Dinners at the home occasionally featured special guests, including Jackson's personal physician Conrad Murray and choreographer Travis Payne. But staffers and guests other than Murray weren't allowed upstairs, where the bedrooms were. When Chase wanted to prepare a soul food menu for Jackson and his children, she wrote him a note in Magic Marker and left it at the foot of the stairs.

AEG Live's lead defense attorney has pointed to the secrecy of Jackson's upstairs lifestyle — where the superstar was receiving nightly doses of the anesthetic propofol in his locked bedroom — to support the company's contention it couldn't have known about Jackson's drug treatments.

Having a stable home for his children was a major motivation for Jackson returning to the concert stage, AEG executives say. After his acquittal of child molestation charges in 2005, Jackson had become a nomad, spending time in various cities, including Las Vegas, often staying with friends.

"He wanted his kids to have a permanent place to live and a sense of community," AEG Live CEO Randy Phillips recalled Jackson telling him during one meeting held while the family was living in the guesthouse of a rich benefactor. It was Halloween and the children darted in and out of the rooms, wearing masks. Later that night, they'd go with their father to a party at Elizabeth Taylor's home. "I felt incredibly bad that this incredible star was at this point where he couldn't buy a house," Phillips said.

Jackson was always a magnet for photographers and fans, but he managed to sneak his children into a movie just weeks before his death. The family and a few others went to see the animated film "Up" at the El Capitan Theatre on a touristy stretch of Hollywood Boulevard. They came in a back door and remained in a private room while moviegoers filed into the theater. When everyone else was seated, the entourage, including his longtime makeup artist Karen Faye, director Kenny Ortega and others, hit up the concession stand. The group watched the movie without distraction. "No one knew Michael was there," Faye recalled.

Jackson and choreographer Travis Payne were scheduled to rehearse one-on-one several days a week in the dance studio that was in the basement of Jackson's mansion. It's unclear how often the pair worked out, but when they did they often had a companion, 7-year-old Blanket. He liked to watch his father dance, Payne later recalled, and tried to always stay close to his dad. During their workouts, Payne said Jackson talked to his son, mentoring him.

Preparations for the shows meant that Jackson was frequently out of the house at meetings, film shoots or rehearsals. When he returned home, Prince, Paris and Blanket would rush their father. "They would take off like lightning," Chase recalls, "... and grab him around the ankles and around the waist." They'd be hanging off of him, not unlike a picture shown to jurors during opening statements. In the photo, Jackson was handing Blanket, then a newborn, to President Bill Clinton. Clinging to Jackson's right leg was Paris.

When it came time for a science project, Paris settled on studying snails. She enlisted Chase to help her find snails in the mansion's backyard. The pair carried large flashlights and found several of the slimy creatures and prepared to bring them inside. Jackson was waiting for them.

"At this point, I knew I was going to get fired," Chase recalled. The singer looked at the snails and had a different reaction — he helped make them a home.
The snails ended up in jars made cozier by moss in the bottom and tiny cocktail umbrellas. They lived on the kitchen counter, not far from other reminders of the children. Blanket's colorings hung on the refrigerator.

On a chalkboard where Chase would write out menus, Paris scrawled a message that remained on the board the day her father died. "I love daddy," the 11-year-old wrote. "Smile, it's free."

http://www.billboard.com/articles/n...tails-emerge-in-courtrooms?utm_source=twitter
 
Originally Posted by ivy

No person has ever definitively died from lack of sleep alone

Really?



(Note: I know Michael didn't have FFI.)

^^^^^Lack of sleep alone - without any other cause ie the genetic condition. FFI

I understood that to mean that no one died from lack of REM sleep alone and there were always other factors, such as FFI - a genetic condition or not sleeping and binge drinking and so on. Even in the FFI definition people die because of dementia or even in some instances weight lost and so on. Interestingly that doctor also said some doctors disagree that rats died because of lack of sleep and they believe rats died because of constantly being woken up.
 
Thanks for the post about hearsay.

I still don't get why Frank's voicemail was allowed during LAPD Martinez testimony. I guess that will remain a mystery..

I would think because the detective can verify that the voicemail came from Dileo's phone? But perhaps there was accompanying instructions that told the jury not to consider it as a statement of truth.

Doesn`t that mean in case of Paris and Prince everything they told Michael has said them about Phillips or AEG it can`t be used because it`s hearsay?

I would certainly expect AEG make a hearsay objection. However as I said there are a lot of exceptions to hearsay rule and it will depend on how the judge will decide. It's not that easy to sit here and say "this is hearsay", "this is not hearsay" and so on.
 
^^^^^Lack of sleep alone - without any other cause ie the genetic condition. FFI

Obviously lack of sleep is abnormal, so there has to be a reason for it. But people ultimately die because they are unable to sleep. FFI is one example, but it's not the only reason for insomnia, even for fatal insomnias, there is a type which is not genetic and its cause is unknown. The point is, people do die because of lack of sleep, whatever causes it.
 
^^^Yes that is my understanding as well, so I believe the original statement 'no person died from lack of sleep alone' to be factual.

Btw that video is very interesting and sad at the same time.
 
I understood that to mean that no one died from lack of REM sleep alone and there were always other factors, such as FFI - a genetic condition or not sleeping and binge drinking and so on. Even in the FFI definition people die because of dementia or even in some instances weight lost and so on. Interestingly that doctor also said some doctors disagree that rats died because of lack of sleep and they believe rats died because of constantly being woken up.

I don't know, but to me that sounds as if saying "no one ever died of cancer" - because people ultimately die of a heart failure. And if the cancer has a genetic reason or a environmental reason then will we say those people did not die of cancer?
 
Obviously lack of sleep is abnormal, so there has to be a reason for it. But people ultimately die because they are unable to sleep. FFI is one example, but it's not the only reason for insomnia, even for fatal insomnias, there is a type which is not genetic and its cause is unknown. The point is, people do die because of lack of sleep, whatever causes it.

Im not sure i understand, can you find some info on the other non genetic type you are referring to? I have never heard of anyone dying through lack of sleep alone.

By the way I meant to ask what this meant. NTSB?
Dr. Czeisler did however interject after the AEG Lawyer finished questions that in an NTSB investigation there are contributing factors
 
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Im not sure i understand, can you find some info on the other non genetic type you are referring to? I have never heard of anyone dying through lack of sleep alone.

Yes, there is a four part documentary I just watched and they talk about it in that. This is Part 3. The relevant part is from 6:00.

 
Thank you for finding that, although it turns out there are two types of FFI it is still the switch in the brain that causes suffers to not sleep. So these people still had a specific condition that caused them not to sleep which then leads to all the other ailments.

I don't think there is any evidence that someone without FFI has died through lack of sleep. That is where I think the specialists testimony is misleading, if he s suggesting Michael had this condition then fair enough, but I don't know if it was looked for in Mchaels autopsy.
 
I think without FFI, it's almost impossible for anyone to have a complete lack of REM sleep and conclude that people can die from sleep deprivation alone within 80 days.

some interesting info

The easy experimental answer to this question is 264 hours (about 11 days). In 1965, Randy Gardner, a 17-year-old high school student, set this apparent world-record for a science fair. Several other normal research subjects have remained awake for eight to 10 days in carefully monitored experiments. None of these individuals experienced serious medical, neurological, physiological or psychiatric problems. On the other hand, all of them showed progressive and significant deficits in concentration, motivation, perception and other higher mental processes as the duration of sleep deprivation increased. Nevertheless, all experimental subjects recovered to relative normality within one or two nights of recovery sleep.

It is often claimed that Gardner's experiment demonstrated that extreme sleep deprivation has little effect, other than the mood changes associated with tiredness. This is primarily due to a report by researcher William Dement, who stated that on the tenth day of the experiment, Gardner had been, among other things, able to beat Dement at pinball.However, Lt. Cmdr. John J. Ross, who monitored his health, reported serious cognitive and behavioral changes. These included moodiness, problems with concentration and short term memory, paranoia, and hallucinations. On the fourth day he had a delusion that he was Paul Lowe winning the Rose Bowl, and that a street sign was a person. On the eleventh day, when he was asked to subtract seven repeatedly, starting with 100, he stopped at 65. When asked why he had stopped, he replied that he had forgotten what he was doing.
On his final day, Gardner presided over a press conference where he spoke without slurring or stumbling his words and in general appeared to be in excellent health. "I wanted to prove that bad things didn't happen if you went without sleep," said Gardner. "I thought, 'I can break that record and I don't think it would be a negative experience.'

Gardner's sleep recovery was instrumented by sleep researchers who noted changes in sleep structure during postdeprivation recovery.[8][9] After completing his record, Gardner slept 14 hours and 40 minutes, awoke naturally around 8:40 p.m., and stayed awake until about 7:30 p.m. the next day, when he slept an additional ten and a half hours. Gardner appeared to fully recover from his loss of sleep, with follow up sleep recordings taken one, six, and ten weeks after the fact showing no significant differences. No long term psychological or physical effects have been observed

In the case of rats, however, continuous sleep deprivation for about two weeks or more inevitably caused death in experiments conducted in Allan Rechtschaffen¿s sleep laboratory at the University of Chicago. Two animals lived on a rotating disc over a pool of water, separated by a fixed wall. Brainwaves were recorded continuously into a computer program that almost instantaneously recognized the onset of sleep. When the experimental rat fell asleep, the disc was rotated to keep it awake by bumping it against the wall and threatening to push the animal into the water. Control rats could sleep when the experimental rat was awake but were moved equally whenever the experimental rat started to sleep. The cause of death was not proven but was associated with whole body hypermetabolism.

Another rare disorder, Fatal Familial Insomnia (FFI), is an autosomal dominate disease that is invariably fatal after about six to 30 months without sleep. FFI is probably misnamed because death results from multiple organ failure rather than sleep deprivation. The pathological processes include degeneration of the thalamus and other brain areas, over-activity of the sympathetic nervous system, hypertension, fever, tremors, stupor, weight loss, and disruption of the body's endocrine systems.

It's impossible to tell if someone is really awake without close medical supervision. People can take cat naps with their eyes open without even being aware of it.

REM sleep occurs in bursts totalling about 2 hours a night, usually beginning about 90 minutes after falling asleep.

Seventeen hours of sustained wakefulness leads to a decrease in performance equivalent to a blood alcohol-level of 0.05%.

Feeling tired can feel normal after a short time. Those deliberately deprived of sleep for research initially noticed greatly the effects on their alertness, mood and physical performance, but the awareness dropped off after the first few days.
 
You can't live without sleeping.

It's very difficult to make experiences on human beings, specifically because of this reason : who will try an experiment to see how fast a human bering will die with no sleep ? (I think the Nazis did, but don't even want to read what they found, but if some of you are interested, you can try and look it up). Plus you will have to wake the person up since the person will likely fall asleep without realising it.

Respect's cancer example is good : some of the cancers are "genetic" , some of them are from environmental factors (which is one of the reason why they are incraesing, and this what prevention is about). Cancer are cells that reproduce abnormally. So you don't die directly from it, you die because cancer has damaged vital organs, so technically you die because a vital organ can not function anymore.
So for example tobacco leads to lung cuncer that can spread to other organs and you die. What did actually kill you ? Tobacco, lung cancer ?

The same way you can link bad nutrition, cholesterol, and strokes. Technically, the person will die of a stroke that will have been caused by cholesterol , caused itself by bad nutrition and / or bad liver.

If you stop eating or drinking, the same thing will happen : vital organs will be damaged, and then you die.

So lack of sleep will produce the symptoms that expert described , that will show that other organs do not function well, and if you let that go on, you will ultimately die. Or you will be so tired that you will have a silly accident that will kill you, or you will do some things that you don't usually do because your judgement will be impaired (binge drinking for ex ). That's how you die from lack of sleep IMO, it can't be "direct"

@ last tear :
re NTSB : I was wondering also and found this National Transportation Safety Board (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Transportation_Safety_Board) , people investigating accidents.
I'm not sure it's what it meant, but it made sense to me if you are talking about "micro sleeps" or falling aslep without realising it, since it is actually the cause of many accidents.
 
carefully monitored experiments. None of these individuals experienced serious medical, neurological, physiological or psychiatric problems. On the other hand, all of them showed progressive and significant deficits in concentration, motivation, perception and other higher mental processes as the duration of sleep deprivation increased. Nevertheless, all experimental subjects recovered to relative normality within one or two nights of recovery sleep.

It is often claimed that Gardner's experiment demonstrated that extreme sleep deprivation has little effect, other than the mood changes associated with tiredness. This is primarily due to a report by researcher William Dement, who stated that on the tenth day of the experiment, Gardner had been, among other things, able to beat Dement at pinball.However, Lt. Cmdr. John J. Ross, who monitored his health, reported serious cognitive and behavioral changes. These included moodiness, problems with concentration and short term memory, paranoia, and hallucinations. On the fourth day he had a delusion that he was Paul Lowe winning the Rose Bowl, and that a street sign was a person. On the eleventh day, when he was asked to subtract seven repeatedly, starting with 100, he stopped at 65. When asked why he had stopped, he replied that he had forgotten what he was doing.
On his final day, Gardner presided over a press conference where he spoke without slurring or stumbling his words and in general appeared to be in excellent health. "I wanted to prove that bad things didn't happen if you went without sleep," said Gardner. "I thought, 'I can break that record and I don't think it would be a negative experience.'

Where does that come from ?

I would like to hear a doctor's opinion, if there's one around in the forum.

I think that even without going as far as total sleep deprivation , lack of sleep (which is different from total absence of sleep) WILL damage your health. Otherwise we would be working 24/7... :(
If there was no need to sleep or if you could recover so fast from not sleeping for so long, i would want to know since I always have 10 000 things I would love to do, but don't have the time to.

And that's also a difference with Michael's situation, who was active and under stress.
 
Thank you for finding that, although it turns out there are two types of FFI it is still the switch in the brain that causes suffers to not sleep. So these people still had a specific condition that caused them not to sleep which then leads to all the other ailments.

I just disagree with this logic. Everything has a cause and an effect, so you can choose to focus on some other part of the cause-effect chain than the lack of sleep, but ultimately the body shuts down because of the lack of sleep. Cancer has causes and effects and by this logic you can choose to say a cancer patient did not die from cancer but from a genetic condition (for example if cancer runs in the family and is genetic) or from the heart failure it caused. But we do not say that. We say that person died from cancer.

No one disputed that there can be neurotic/physical/psychological causes of insomnia. That's not the point. But lack of sleep can kill and does kill.
 
that one is from

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-long-can-humans-stay

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_(record_holder)

and some from

http://www.abc.net.au/science/sleep/facts.htm

and something I did not copy

To return to the original question, "How long can humans stay awake?" the ultimate answer remains unclear. Despite the rat studies in Chicago, I am unaware of any reports that sleep deprivation per se has killed any human (excluding accidents and so forth). Indeed, the U.S. Department of Defense has offered research funding for the goal of sustaining a fully awake, fully functional "24/7" soldier, sailor, or airman. Future warriors will face intense, around-the-clock fighting for weeks at a time. Will bioengineering eventually produce genetically-cloned soldiers and citizens with a variant of Morvan¿s syndrome who need no sleep but remain effective and happy? I hope not.

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But lack of sleep can kill and does kill.

I think this has been explained by the recent quotes

I am unaware of any reports that sleep deprivation per se has killed any human[/B] (excluding accidents and so forth).

and

FFI is probably misnamed because death results from multiple organ failure rather than sleep deprivation.

so I guess no one dies from lack of sleep directly, but lack of sleep can cause serious problems - such as multiple organ failures that can cause death but even that requires 6 to 30 months.

My whole point had been the "within days" death from sleep deprivation estimation.. to me it is still an exaggeration.
 
I understand the connection with the examples given, and we agree on them. However, can a person die from lack of sleep without the FFI condition?

Its an interesting discussion but we have to remember that as far as we know Michael did not have FFI and if Lee is truthful then he could fall asleep. I do feel though that the sleep specialists testimony was misleading.

Bouee, thanks for the NTSB info, I have no idea how it fitted in the testimony, I guess we are missing quite a bit.
 
I just disagree with this logic. Everything has a cause and an effect, so you can choose to focus on some other part of the cause-effect chain than the lack of sleep, but ultimately the body shuts down because of the lack of sleep. Cancer has causes and effects and by this logic you can choose to say a cancer patient did not die from cancer but from a genetic condition (for example if cancer runs in the family and is genetic) or from the heart failure it caused. But we do not say that. We say that person died from cancer.

No one disputed that there can be neurotic/physical/psychological causes of insomnia. That's not the point. But lack of sleep can kill and does kill.

Um, yeah, but aren't we actually agreeing on most points apart from just one? IMO it is exactly the point.
 
FFI is probably misnamed because death results from multiple organ failure rather than sleep deprivation.

It reminds me of the father of a friend who died of cancer. (And this is why I brought up the cancer example.) The cause of death on his autopsy was "heart failure", which his son finds ridiculous ever since because what he really died of was cancer. Yeah, you can say that the direct cause of death was heart failure, but his heart stopped beating because he had terminal stage cancer. Ever since the son is joking how all people die of heart failure, that's the only cause of death.
 
i think that this expert will be partially impeached, or has already partailly been because :

1) relation sleep/anesthesia is not clear yet

2) above all , because there's no way of knowing what exactly Murray was doing, he based his reasoning on "full time propofol" and left out the benzo aspect , which is certanly more "natural" sleep than anesthesia AND when benzos are given IV they cause a faster tolerance and addiction problem, so could MAYBE have made it impossible for Michael to sleep on his own after a while (I mean without benzos / propofol the days Murray was off)

What I will "keep" from his testimony is the symptoms of lack of sleep , that matched Michael's so could be an explanation (knowing there can be other explanations ) , aand that a cardiologist is not indicated for sleep issues (which is common knowledge)
 
I understand the connection with the examples given, and we agree on them. However, can a person die from lack of sleep without the FFI condition?

see this is what I understand

in FFI condition people cannot sleep at all. So that is complete lack of sleep.

Without FFI, it's impossible for people to have complete lack of sleep. They can have microsleeps or can sleep for a few hours and have REM sleep. Those are probably not enough for a good nights sleep but they are at least recovering / rebounding some.

going without sleep for some time seems to cause some behavior problems that include paranoia, concentration issues and so on. however people recover from those in 1-3 days of sleeping and it doesn't cause any long term effects.

if there's a total lack of sleep for a really long period of time - such as in FFI - then what happens is other problems such as losing weight and multiple internal organ failure that causes death.

So a death from sleep deprivation requires complete lack of sleep, no chance for any recovery / rebound and multiple internal organ failure, which clearly takes longer than "within days". And Michael had healthy internal organs.

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On a side note : the rat experiment was interesting as well. Rats were on a rotating disc on a pool of water and were waken up constantly by the spinning of the disc and threatened to be drowned.

the nature of the experiment seems to make some researchers doubt if the rats died from sleep deprivation or if they died from increase of stress hormone & blood pressure.
 
Does Duke say the Jackson-Lawyer said he wouldn`t bring in Paris deposition in court but the AEG-lawyer did it and a little time later Duke announced that Paris and Prince deposition will bring big news against AEG. That`s a little bit confusing.

Yea, I think he tried to make AEG look bad for bringing the deposition, but then went on to say what claims the kids will make when the JAcksons play it. LOL He also contradicted Kai Chase by saying Prince was writing MJ's emails, when she said the kids were not allowed to use computers.

Yes, this line of questioning about Grace was irrelevant from the Jacksons, I agree. Did AEG really need to sink even lower using Paris' depo ? No.

To me the more important question is: Why haven't this child been removed as a plaintiff after what happened to her 2 weeks ago?? Paris (and Prince too for that matter) should have been immediately removed as a plaintiff to protect her. This was the right thing to do considering what happened and how this trial no doubt contributed to it. And nobody would've been able to use anything and she would've been protected. Yet despite her suicide attempt the Jacksons let her stay a plaintiff, making it possible for her depo to be used and what's more - they know very well she could actually be called to the stand.

I expect her FAMILY to protect her, not AEG. The fact that they aren't doing so is very telling to me.
 
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