Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[LastTear]

^^^^ It won't be Paris that will be discredited, it will be Michael.

 

[serendipity]

^^^^ It won't be Paris that will be discredited, it will be Michael.

Yea, I think both will be. They have already painted Paris as a confused teenager, who only did it out of anger etc. etc.

 

[bouee]

See they sure want to discredit Paris. Just another example why this child should have immediately been removed as a plaintiff. Shows how much they care for those kids really......... just sad.

She would have been a witness anyway. I think that as soon as Katherine filed, the kids were likely to be witnesses, whether or not they were plaintiffs.
So protecting the kids from this would have meant no trial at all, IMO.
Unless there was a way to keep them from testifying, or limit what they would have testified about, which I don't know.

^^^^ It won't be Paris that will be discredited, it will be Michael.

Agreed.
Or maybe both , if she said things that could be problematic for AEG.

I believe Michael thought he could make it through with the propofol! He didn't want to take the time for more tests, other medication or whatever.
It would have been up to Murray to tell him the danger he was in. The Murray guy probably wasn't informed enough himself. I feel frustrated with Murrays hunger for money compared to his carelessness in treating his patient. That's incredible sick... the worst narcistic personality disorder I've ever experienced. The safest would be they forget him in his cell in jail.
However I do not understand Michael might dying a few days later from sleep deprivation (and from what I've learned during studies I do not believe that would have been really the case... however it's too theoretical to be argued by me... that's to me like someone saying cuz of his symptoms he would had run into a driving car and died by that accident)... what this really has to do with the trial. Is it meant to prove anything? then what is it? I really can't follow this somehow... sorry if it's clear to all already but can someone please fill me in in all shortness possible?

I don't understand it either. His cross examination seems to take a lot of time too, so there must be something we don't get.
I mean it's interesting to know that those symptoms can be connected to lack of sleep, but I don't understand why take it further and have all this talk about REM sleep, dying in 15mn from lack of sleep, etc.
It would have been enough to say that it was dangerous to go on like this, and that Michael may not have been able to do the shows if nothing had been done.
Or, as I write this, I'm thinking maybe this exaggeration is meant to show how incompetent and dangerous Murray was, if AEG's defense will be to defend Murray.

Also he said that insomnia could be treated, so that aspect would be for the damages and showing how Michael could have done 240 shows after that, inspite of his insomnia problem.



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Question(s) :

- Is there a rule about cross examination ? Do the lawyers have to stick to what was asked during direct or can they ask whatever they want ?

- If they can call adverse witnesses/experts (or use their depo, as that was the case with dr Earley) , why have the same person on both witness lists ? To make sure to be able to call this person ?

 

[LastTear]

Yea, I think both will be. They have already painted Paris as a confused teenager, who only did it out of anger etc. etc.

Well, yeah, my opinion was based on how AEG would use it. There is no excuse for the Jacksons to come out and say 'Paris lied' - no words.

 

[bouee]

reading a small part of dr czeisler's testimony from another website

the lawyer asking questions is a Ms Cahan (I think AEG, I'm not sure though)

1 it sounds like he was asked about Metzger advising Michael about sleep issues, the Dr answered he could not remember Michael refusing therapy

2-he said that he would not expect anyone to diagnose lack of leep, but if AEG knew about sleep issues, it would have been logical to make the link.

Overall, from this little part I read, the dr seems to be difficult with AEG and defending Michael a lot.

 

[AliCat]

It would be interesting to know when & why he refused. He had this problem for so long that I think it is possible he had seen one before & knew why & and what a specialist would do.

Dr. Allan Metzger did testify during the Criminal trial of Murray's, that he had prescribed twice, 2003 and then 2008, medicine to help Michael sleep. Dr. Metzger worked in conjunction with the office that Michael went to for his pain management. It's where Paris Jackson was born.

Michael Jackson was bound and determined to keep Conrad Murray as his 'sleep specialist.' Conrad Murray was going to be paid $150,000 a month to be Michael Jackson's 'sleep specialist,' and all because the charlatan needed to close his offices in Houston, Texas and Las Vegas, Nevada!

 

[LastTear]

Honestly, I don't think it would be a logical conclusion. If i saw someone with those ailments the first thing that would come to my mind would be stress first of all, and then if I saw any confusion, honestly, I would think some substance or another.

 

[loveforever]

Who said Michael refused therapy? In Murray's trial, they said Michael had the sleep problem for years and had tried many things to no avail.

 

[bouee]

Dr. Allan Metzger did testify during the Criminal trial of Murray's, that he had prescribed twice, 2003 and then 2008, medicine to help Michael sleep. Dr. Metzger worked in conjunction with the office that Michael went to for his pain management. It's where Paris Jackson was born.

Yes I remember Metzger even said that oral medication didn't work in Michael's case, but I don't remember him saying he advised a sleep specialist ?
He did prescribe other medicines that day, and told Michael, I think, to let him know if they worked, and then he never heard of Michael again. That's what I remember.

The summary of his testimony in CM trial is here, and doesn't say that either
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...ct-announced?p=3519556&viewfull=1#post3519556

 

[AliCat]

A lawyer for Katherine Jackson summarized the evidence used to form the basis for Czeisler’s opinion in a 17-minute, 1,833 word question that caused the trial to grind to a halt on Thursday afternoon and Friday morning.

Michael Koskoff’s inquiry was posed as a hypothetical question to Czeisler that included a summary of testimony, passages of emails already shown to jurors and other evidence presented during trial.

A judge said the question contained details that are inadmissible in the trial and misstated several other details. Superior Court Yvette Palazuelos opted not to strike the question from the record but allowed Koskoff to clarify it. That process took another 19 minutes on Friday.

Attorneys spent roughly an hour arguing over the structure of the lengthy question, leaving jurors waiting for nearly 30 minutes on Friday.

Czeisler earned more than $250 listening to the initial question, and more than $300 listening to Koskoff clarify it.

In all, he estimated that he had spent 120 hours on the case, which would earn him $114,000.

http://www.app.com/viewart/20130622/NJENT/306220014/Expert-Michael-Jackson-totally-sleep-deprived

 

[Aquarius]

I have a question. I believe it was Karen, Ortega or Travis who said Michael kept repeating himself. Now this doctor says Michael was talking to himself. Repeating himself & talking to himself are two different things. So my question is, who told him Michael was speaking to himself?


"In all, he estimated that he had spent 120 hours on the case, which would earn him $114,000."

I don't know if I'm reading everything wrong, but if this doctor would earn $114,000. for 120 hrs, what's the big issue with Conrad $150,000. salary. And I'm not defending Conrad but my problem is why is good for a doctor to get so much money for reading & testifying and it's not good for another doctor to get that much for a whole month of employment.

 

[Annita]

I have a question. I believe it was Karen, Ortega or Travis who said Michael kept repeating himself. Now this doctor says Michael was talking to himself. Repeating himself & talking to himself are two different things. So my question is, who told him Michael was speaking to himself?

http://news.yahoo.com/expert-michael-jackson-totally-sleep-deprived-180920143.html

Czeisler relied heavily on summaries of testimony provided by a plaintiff's lawyer and emails from choreographers and others working on Jackson's "This Is It" tour to form his opinion. The testimony detailed Jackson's missed rehearsals and reports that he was picking up dance moves slowly, as well as that he requested a teleprompter to display lyrics to his songs.

"The meticulous detailing of his deterioration here was both profound and sad," Czeisler said.

The Harvard professor and sleep researcher is testifying as a sleep expert in a lawsuit filed by the singer's mother against concert promoter AEG Live LLC.
On cross-examination by AEG defense attorney Kathryn Cahan, the researcher acknowledged that he hadn't reviewed actual testimony from the case, including statements from AEG executives that they thought the singer appeared fine and had stellar rehearsals before his death.

 

[Aquarius]

Annita. So, it's safe to think that the Jackson's attorneys told him that but it was not said in court by anyone who testified so far, correct? Kind of the attorneys made it up.

 

[ivy]

She would have been a witness anyway. I think that as soon as Katherine filed, the kids were likely to be witnesses, whether or not they were plaintiffs. So protecting the kids from this would have meant no trial at all, IMO. Unless there was a way to keep them from testifying, or limit what they would have testified about, which I don't know.

that's actually would have been determined by the lawsuit claims. If this lawsuit had been kept clean and to the point of Murray's hiring, there would have no need for kids to testify. It is all of these side topics bring the need to put them to the stand.

I don't understand it either. His cross examination seems to take a lot of time too, so there must be something we don't get.
I mean it's interesting to know that those symptoms can be connected to lack of sleep, but I don't understand why take it further and have all this talk about REM sleep, dying in 15mn from lack of sleep, etc.
It would have been enough to say that it was dangerous to go on like this, and that Michael may not have been able to do the shows if nothing had been done.
Or, as I write this, I'm thinking maybe this exaggeration is meant to show how incompetent and dangerous Murray was, if AEG's defense will be to defend Murray.

If you remember the negligent hiring jury instructions the person hired (Murray) also needs to be incompetent and the party that hired him (AEG) knew or should have known it. I would think this expert is on the stand to show that Murray was incompetent to treat a sleep disorder. However they still need to establish AEG knew Michael's sleep problems.

- Is there a rule about cross examination ? Do the lawyers have to stick to what was asked during direct or can they ask whatever they want ?

they can ask whatever they want

- If they can call adverse witnesses/experts (or use their depo, as that was the case with dr Earley) , why have the same person on both witness lists ? To make sure to be able to call this person ?

yes , for example Jacksons can have an expert listed on their witness list but later decide not to call them to the stand. If that happens and if that experts name is not on AEG's list they can't call him to the stand, they can only use their deposition. So both parties listing the same people is just to make sure that if the other party doesn't call that witness they can call them.

2-he said that he would not expect anyone to diagnose lack of leep, but if AEG knew about sleep issues, it would have been logical to make the link.

see this is the part that Jacksons still need to work on.

Who said Michael refused therapy? In Murray's trial, they said Michael had the sleep problem for years and had tried many things to no avail.

Nurse Lee said she offered Michael a sleep study and he said he did not have time for it. so she's at least one person that Michael refused.

"In all, he estimated that he had spent 120 hours on the case, which would earn him $114,000."

I don't know if I'm reading everything wrong, but if this doctor would earn $114,000. for 120 hrs, what's the big issue with Conrad $150,000. salary. And I'm not defending Conrad but my problem is why is good for a doctor to get so much money for reading & testifying and it's not good for another doctor to get that much for a whole month of employment.

that's AEG's point. They are trying to say that Murray was on the clock 24 /7 and his salary was normal. They asked to the previous expert Berman if he knows doctors make more than a million and he replied his doctor earns that much. So AEG will argue that a successful doctor with 4 clinics can earn more than a million dollars a year and given that Murray closing his practices and would be on call 24 / 7 the $1.5 Million was normal.

 

[bouee]

that's actually would have been determined by the lawsuit claims. If this lawsuit had been kept clean and to the point of Murray's hiring, there would have no need for kids to testify. It is all of these side topics bring the need to put them to the stand.

They need to show hiring & /or supervising IMO (contracts, meetings including Murray, etc..) CM being incompentent and AEG aware of it (Michael's health deteriorating under Murray's care), so IMO the kids would have been needed at least by the Jacksons, and /or deposed at the request of AEG "just in case" , for ex for cases like Prince contradicted something Kai Chase said.

If you remember the negligent hiring jury instructions the person hired (Murray) also needs to be incompetent and the party that hired him (AEG) knew or should have known it. I would think this expert is on the stand to show that Murray was incompetent to treat a sleep disorder. However they still need to establish AEG knew Michael's sleep problems.

They knew about sleep issues, Phillips eventually admitted it was discussed at at least the june 20th meeting, maybe before that. I think it's logical they knew what Murray was hired for (sleep issue, I don't think they knew about propofol, & it doesn't matter since they wouldn't have understood it)

 

[loveforever]

I have a question. I believe it was Karen, Ortega or Travis who said Michael kept repeating himself. Now this doctor says Michael was talking to himself. Repeating himself & talking to himself are two different things. So my question is, who told him Michael was speaking to himself?


"In all, he estimated that he had spent 120 hours on the case, which would earn him $114,000."

I don't know if I'm reading everything wrong, but if this doctor would earn $114,000. for 120 hrs, what's the big issue with Conrad $150,000. salary. And I'm not defending Conrad but my problem is why is good for a doctor to get so much money for reading & testifying and it's not good for another doctor to get that much for a whole month of employment.

What? :bugeyed Who is paying him? Michael's money? I am wondering how much money the estate waste if Katherine lose the case. I know Michael's name and his children emotional health are the total loss no matter the outcome of the trial.

 

[ivy]

They knew about sleep issues, Phillips eventually admitted it was discussed at at least the june 20th meeting, maybe before that. I think it's logical they knew what Murray was hired for (sleep issue, I don't think they knew about propofol, & it doesn't matter since they wouldn't have understood it)

I understood that discussion as "are you sleeping enough? do you get rest enough?" type of discussion. I don't think they had the knowledge of "can't sleep more than 3 hours, no drugs work, need anesthesia".

 

[bouee]

I understood that discussion as "are you sleeping enough? do you get rest enough?" type of discussion. I don't think they had the knowledge of "can't sleep more than 3 hours, no drugs work, need anesthesia".

I don't think so...If it was that simple, there would be no problem admitting it. PG had suspicious memory loss about that, and then recovered memory to say it was NOT discussed. Phillips admitted it after , I think 3 different versions. I remember the june 20th meeting, but it could have been before that.

Plus , trying to hire a nutritionnist / food person twice is very suspicious : why couldn't Murray do it ? PG himself eventually said he did not understand it (he was the one who looked for one mid june). It's not difficult to feed someone with a low appetite, it's really strange Murray said he would take care of it at 1st meeting (according to Phillips) , and then see AEG try to hire someone for this particualr aspect right after each of the next 2 meetings.
So at minimum they knew CM was not very good, at most they knew he was working at night/on sleep issues.

 

[passy001]

They knew about sleep issues, Phillips eventually admitted it was discussed at at least the june 20th meeting, maybe before that. I think it's logical they knew what Murray was hired for (sleep issue, I don't think they knew about propofol, & it doesn't matter since they wouldn't have understood it)

I don't think they knew about sleep issues. they may have suspected something was wrong but they did not know it was due to lack of sleep. so the jacksons still have work to do.
They have established that MJ had problems but they have not established that AEG knew about his sleep problems.

 

[passy001]

I don't think so...If it was that simple, there would be no problem admitting it. PG had suspicious memory loss about that, and then recovered memory to say it was NOT discussed. Phillips admitted it after , I think 3 different versions. I remember the june 20th meeting, but it could have been before that.

Plus , trying to hire a nutritionnist / food person twice is very suspicious : why couldn't Murray do it ? PG himself eventually said he did not understand it (he was the one who looked for one mid june). It's not difficult to feed someone with a low appetite, it's really strange Murray said he would take care of it at 1st meeting (according to Phillips) , and then see AEG try to hire someone for this particualr aspect right after each of the next 2 meetings.
So at minimum they knew CM was not very good, at most they knew he was working at night/on sleep issues.

a nutritionist to fix sleep issues? That's so funny.come on... and the fact that PG suggested a nutritionist means nothing really in the big picture except that he may have felt MJ was not eating well. not that he was not sleeping at all.

Also at this point AEG did not know that MJ had insomnia. This was not known to anybody else besides MJ and CM. Both were very secretive about MJ medical conditions.

 

[ivy]

Plus , trying to hire a nutritionnist / food person twice is very suspicious : why couldn't Murray do it ? PG himself eventually said he did not understand it (he was the one who looked for one mid june). It's not difficult to feed someone with a low appetite,

this part I disagree. first of all dietitian does require a specific set of knowledge which I'm not sure a doctor would have. Second I have seen people going through cancer treatments with little to no appetite and eating is a torture for such people. if you force them to eat it just makes it worse. so trying to feed them is actually very difficult and does require planning by an expert nutritionist. (ps : seeing that cancer patients being referred to dietitian, I will assume that it's not something a doctor would be the best person to do)

Plus , trying to hire a nutritionnist / food person twice is very suspicious ....
So at minimum they knew CM was not very good

I'm going to comment on this explaining US medical system. Here there are two distinct doctors : general physicians (Also known as family doctors) and specialists. In USA the general physicians are the first one to go and they can handle very basic general care issues such as routine checkups, immunizations and so on. For everything else they refer to you to a specialist.

so given US medical system, it's not really weird to consider an actual specialist for a very specific issue.

 

[passy001]

this part I disagree. first of all dietitian does require a specific set of knowledge which I'm not sure a doctor would have. Second I have seen people going through cancer treatments with little to no appetite and eating is a torture for such people. if you force them to eat it just makes it worse. so trying to feed them is actually very difficult and does require planning by an expert nutritionist. (ps : seeing that cancer patients being referred to dietitian, I will assume that it's not something a doctor would be the best person to do)

Let me add to this. PG only suspected that MJ was not eating well. but he never suspected or even knew that MJ was suffering from insomnia. so there is a big difference.

You don't advise a nutritionist to someone who is suffering from insomnia. that's just common sense.

 

[serendipity]

Well, yeah, my opinion was based on how AEG would use it. There is no excuse for the Jacksons to come out and say 'Paris lied' - no words.

It's either Paris or MJ. They've already thrown MJ under the bus many times, so one more time won't be a problem, however Paris' credibility will also suffer. I just don't understand why do they need Grace so much that they are willing to discredit MJ and Paris. What is so important that she can bring to the table regarding this case? It's beyond baffling to me.

"In all, he estimated that he had spent 120 hours on the case, which would earn him $114,000."

I don't know if I'm reading everything wrong, but if this doctor would earn $114,000. for 120 hrs, what's the big issue with Conrad $150,000. salary. And I'm not defending Conrad but my problem is why is good for a doctor to get so much money for reading & testifying and it's not good for another doctor to get that much for a whole month of employment.

Bingo! Great point! In addition, his testimony was mostly irrelevant to the main issue.

Let me add to this. PG only suspected that MJ was not eating well. but he never suspected or even knew that MJ was suffering from insomnia. so there is a big difference.

You don't advise a nutritionist to someone who is suffering from insomnia. that's just common sense.

Yea, I don't think they knew MJ suffered from severe insomnia. If MJ mentioned it, it was likely what he has talked about in interviews which wouldn't have gotten people worried or suspicions. JMO

 

[Soundmind]

they need Grace to say MJ was heavily addicted to drugs and alcohol , they need her to counter what AEG is going to expose about their so called interventions . Tunia , Randy's girlfriend already informed AEG the intervention were business related . The jacksons fought hard to make her testimony inadmissible , they need Grace to side with them on this issue .

 

[LastTear]

It's either Paris or MJ. They've already thrown MJ under the bus many times, so one more time won't be a problem, however Paris' credibility will also suffer. I just don't understand why do they need Grace so much that they are willing to discredit MJ and Paris. What is so important that she can bring to the table regarding this case? It's beyond baffling to me.

If the Jacksons continue with 'Pars lashing out' then she will be humiliated (in fact she already has been) but in court they may say that Paris is repeating what Michael did say, which would make him prone to exaggeration.

 

[jamba]

Yes I remember Metzger even said that oral medication didn't work in Michael's case, but I don't remember him saying he advised a sleep specialist ?
He did prescribe other medicines that day, and told Michael, I think, to let him know if they worked, and then he never heard of Michael again. That's what I remember.

The summary of his testimony in CM trial is here, and doesn't say that either
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...ct-announced?p=3519556&viewfull=1#post3519556

I think that info is in either Metzger's deposition or in a media report about his discussion with MJ when he went to Carolwood on April 19, which was the nxt day after Lee watched MJ sleep for 3 hours, and they talked for about an hour and a half about MJ's preparations/concerns for the tour.

I was pretty sure CM order propofol before the end of April, you posted April 30. I will have to check later.

Re your comment to Ivy about fueling the fire--she just told me thank you for my post. It is ridiculous IMO to accuse someone of fueling the fire when they simply say thank you. I think people have asked Ivy a lot of questions, which is fine, but she has patiently answered them, and yet periodically she gets accused of stuff that as someone just reading what she wrote, I don't see how she has done anything to deserve those accusations, such as your accusation that she is fueling the fire by saying thank you to someone's post. This is putting her in a bind. That IMO is unfair and something I don't like to see happen to anyone who is doing their best to help us with facts (as opposed to opinions). We need facts on which to form/base our opinions. I have read a few comments criticizing her and have not said anything, but I finally will say--let's give her the respect and appreciation she deserves! I was very glad to read your acknowledgement of the hard work she does for us all!! Yay!!

Seeing anyone treated badly upsets me, and I am very upset to read about the awful things done to innocent animals and I am totally opposed to those cruel experiments, not to get off-topic, but please if anyone is going to describe one of those cruel experiments, could you do me a favor and post a WARNING--so I won't read it.

Regarding dying from lack of sleep, of course determining cause of death is hard. But I have read about video game players in China who get obsessed and a few have died in their chair b/c they are addicted and the addiction to the game overrides their body telling them stop!

 

[jamba]

A lawyer for Katherine Jackson summarized the evidence used to form the basis for Czeisler’s opinion in a 17-minute, 1,833 word question that caused the trial to grind to a halt on Thursday afternoon and Friday morning.

Michael Koskoff’s inquiry was posed as a hypothetical question to Czeisler that included a summary of testimony, passages of emails already shown to jurors and other evidence presented during trial.

A judge said the question contained details that are inadmissible in the trial and misstated several other details. Superior Court Yvette Palazuelos opted not to strike the question from the record but allowed Koskoff to clarify it. That process took another 19 minutes on Friday.

Attorneys spent roughly an hour arguing over the structure of the lengthy question, leaving jurors waiting for nearly 30 minutes on Friday.

Czeisler earned more than $250 listening to the initial question, and more than $300 listening to Koskoff clarify it.

In all, he estimated that he had spent 120 hours on the case, which would earn him $114,000.

http://www.app.com/viewart/20130622/NJENT/306220014/Expert-Michael-Jackson-totally-sleep-deprived

Is this a sign she is starting to control the case a bit? Maybe. But she allowed them to revise the question. Here she is going all flip-floppy again. How come it took 19 minutes to revise the question? She should have given them a time limit. Get your game on, Yvette!

 

[jamba]

She would have been a witness anyway. I think that as soon as Katherine filed, the kids were likely to be witnesses, whether or not they were plaintiffs.
So protecting the kids from this would have meant no trial at all, IMO.
Unless there was a way to keep them from testifying, or limit what they would have testified about, which I don't know.




Agreed.
Or maybe both , if she said things that could be problematic for AEG.



I don't understand it either. His cross examination seems to take a lot of time too, so there must be something we don't get.
I mean it's interesting to know that those symptoms can be connected to lack of sleep, but I don't understand why take it further and have all this talk about REM sleep, dying in 15mn from lack of sleep, etc.
It would have been enough to say that it was dangerous to go on like this, and that Michael may not have been able to do the shows if nothing had been done.
Or, as I write this, I'm thinking maybe this exaggeration is meant to show how incompetent and dangerous Murray was, if AEG's defense will be to defend Murray.

Also he said that insomnia could be treated, so that aspect would be for the damages and showing how Michael could have done 240 shows after that, inspite of his insomnia problem.



-----

Question(s) :

- Is there a rule about cross examination ? Do the lawyers have to stick to what was asked during direct or can they ask whatever they want ?

- If they can call adverse witnesses/experts (or use their depo, as that was the case with dr Earley) , why have the same person on both witness lists ? To make sure to be able to call this person ?

This could end up being a trial about insomnia--sleep, the brain on sleep, the brain on REM, micro-napping, the brain without sleep, the brain, research into the brain, the brains of other mammals, prisoners of war (sleep deprivation as torture), torture, renditions-- AARGGGGG!!!

 

[MIST]

I have read about video game players in China who get obsessed and a few have died in their chair b/c they are addicted and the addiction to the game overrides their body telling them stop!

They probably forgot to eat and drink too , maybe didn´t take medicin they needed,maybe took drugs so they woyldn´t be tired

 

[serendipity]

they need Grace to say MJ was heavily addicted to drugs and alcohol , they need her to counter what AEG is going to expose about their so called interventions . Tunia , Randy's girlfriend already informed AEG the intervention were business related . The jacksons fought hard to make her testimony inadmissible , they need Grace to side with them on this issue .

Thanks. I didn't think about this. It's truly pathetic if true.