Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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I am unaware of any reports that sleep deprivation per se has killed any human

In the case of those who died from FFI I'd say they died because of sleep deprivation. You can say, no they did not die because of that but because of a genetic condition, or no, they did not die because of that but because their vital organs failed, so yes, you can put focus on other parts of the cause-effect chain then the lack of sleep, but I feel the same way about it as about the cancer examples I gave. Obviously those who named this disease Fatal Insomnia thought the cause of death was the insomnia. I guess it's a matter of approach whether you will say that or that the cause of death is a genetic disease or that the cause of death is the failure of a vital organ.

I don't know if there is data about people who were tortured with sleep deprivation in jails. Whether any of them died and after how much time. I just can't imagine such torture could go on forever without the person dying. We do need sleep like we need food or water, so I find it pretty incredible that no one dies from sleep deprivation.
 
but then went on to say what claims the kids will make when the JAcksons play it.

it's interesting that he claims to know what the kids have said in their depositions - which shows if true someone is leaking him information.

To me the more important question is: Why haven't this child been removed as a plaintiff after what happened to her 2 weeks ago?? Paris (and Prince too for that matter) should have been immediately removed as a plaintiff to protect her.

simple: economic damages.

The damages collected is determined according to life expectancy of not only the decedent but as well as the plaintiffs / beneficiaries.

for example if we assume everyone - meaning Katherine, Michael and the kids- lived to be 90 . Katherine can only collect 11 years worth of economic damages. (she was 79 when Michael died), however the kids can each collect 40 years of damages ( assuming Michael would have lived to be 90 but died when 50 years old).

so as you can see, the number of plaintiffs and younger plaintiffs increase the economic damages calculation.
 
To me the more important question is: Why haven't this child been removed as a plaintiff after what happened to her 2 weeks ago?? Paris (and Prince too for that matter) should have been immediately removed as a plaintiff to protect her. This was the right thing to do considering what happened and how this trial no doubt contributed to it. And nobody would've been able to use anything and she would've been protected. Yet despite her suicide attempt the Jacksons let her stay a plaintiff, making it possible for her depo to be used and what's more - they know very well she could actually be called to the stand.

I expect her FAMILY to protect her, not AEG. The fact that they aren't doing so is very telling to me.

Again, not everything AEG does is excused by what the Jacksons do. If she is removed from the defendants, will she be removed from the witness lists (she's on both lists) ? It's too late now, I guess.
I agree with you that the Jacksons need to protect her , but that does not excuse AEG IMO. I'm not sure it gives a good image to use a 15 year old that way, for BOTH sides.
 
simple: economic damages.

The damages collected is determined according to life expectancy of not only the decedent but as well as the plaintiffs / beneficiaries.

for example if we assume everyone - meaning Katherine, Michael and the kids- lived to be 90 . Katherine can only collect 11 years worth of economic damages. (she was 79 when Michael died), however the kids can each collect 40 years of damages ( assuming Michael would have lived to be 90 but died when 50 years old).

so as you can see, the number of plaintiffs and younger plaintiffs increase the economic damages calculation.

Oh Ivy, I know all that. My point is that the economic damages are more important to them than protecting this child, even after she tried to kill herself. And that is a total shame.
 
^^
given that she's at a hospital and probably will be able to get a doctors note, I don't expect Paris to testify. The deposition videos is fair game though.
 
re lack sleep talk : it's probably wishful thinking on my part, but maybe we'll have a different vision when Debbie/Ratner testify, if they testify to propofol use during History tour. Michael did not seem to "deteriorate' back then, or show all those weird symptoms. Maybe one of them will give an explanation.
 
re lack sleep talk : it's probably wishful thinking on my part, but maybe we'll have a different vision when Debbie/Ratner testify, if they testify to propofol use during History tour. Michael did not seem to "deteriorate' back then, or show all those weird symptoms. Maybe one of them will give an explanation.

Michael was 12-13 years younger on HIStory tour. Maybe that's one of the reasons.
 
On cross examination, Dr. Czeisler acknowledged that the evidence showed two doctors tried to convince Jackson to seek a medical specialist for his sleep disorder and he refused.

AEG maintains this case is about personal responsibility. The Jackson family sees it as corporate negligence.


http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013...day-on-stand-in-jackson-wrongful-death-trial/

Just so sad that Michael Jackson refused to seek a medical specialist for his sleep disorder!
 
On cross examination, Dr. Czeisler acknowledged that the evidence showed two doctors tried to convince Jackson to seek a medical specialist for his sleep disorder and he refused.

AEG maintains this case is about personal responsibility. The Jackson family sees it as corporate negligence.


http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013...day-on-stand-in-jackson-wrongful-death-trial/

Just so sad that Michael Jackson refused to seek a medical specialist for his sleep disorder!

This is very interesting info, I don't think I've seen it before. I hope we learn more about it. Who were these doctors, when did it happen? I agree, It's sad. :-(
 
serendipity;3851638 said:
YTo me the more important question is: Why haven't this child been removed as a plaintiff after what happened to her 2 weeks ago?? Paris (and Prince too for that matter) should have been immediately removed as a plaintiff to protect her. This was the right thing to do considering what happened and how this trial no doubt contributed to it. And nobody would've been able to use anything and she would've been protected. Yet despite her suicide attempt the Jacksons let her stay a plaintiff, making it possible for her depo to be used and what's more - they know very well she could actually be called to the stand.

Actually there are three reasons why Michael's daughter remains a plaintiff in this wrongful death civil suit:

1. one must be an immediate family member of the deceased. (Spouses, parents, and children).
2. one must have proof of the loved one’s death. (Death certificate signed by a coroner).
3. one must have suffered damages. (Proof of emotional and/or financial trauma as a direct result of the deceased.)
 
Michael Jackson using a teleprompter was brought up by the sleep expert to prove how sleep deprived Michael was. Here's Prince using one and he isn't the only one in the business who uses one!


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Tygger;3851747 said:
Actually there are three reasons why Michael's daughter remains a plaintiff in this wrongful death civil suit:

1. one must be an immediate family member of the deceased. (Spouses, parents, and children).
2. one must have proof of the loved one’s death. (Death certificate signed by a coroner).
3. one must have suffered damages. (Proof of emotional and/or financial trauma as a direct result of the deceased.)

So? She could still be removed. In fact Katherine could've filed this as the only plaintiff and not gotten the kids involved.
 
Serendipity, all of the children could have been removed before filing but, why should they? They fulfill each of the three criteria and they deserve to be compensated for their lost if the jury sees fit. Even if they were removed, it does not change the claim against AEG.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts
"If you didn't get REM sleep yesterday, you'll have REM rebound tonight, you might fall directly into sleep," Dr. Czeisler said.
ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts
Dr. Murray: Ironically, Propofol anesthesia in sleep deprived animals, they don't have rebound, it destroys the drive for sleep.
ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts
"They wake up feelings refreshed, it has dissipated their sleep drive, but not their sleep need," Dr. Czeisler said about Propofol.

Unfortunately the tweets here did not continue with this line of questioning. It seems propofol destroys REM rebound. Michael would have only microsleeps (lasting up to a half of a minute) and his natural 3 hour sleep Sundays. Of course that is assuming he fell asleep naturally on Sundays minus that April with Nurse Lee.
 
Serendipity, all of the children could have been removed before filing but, why should they? They fulfill each of the three criteria and they deserve to be compensated for their lost if the jury sees fit. Even if they were removed, it does not change the claim against AEG..

Why should they? I guess what happened to Paris isn't enough. I'm talking about the kids' well being, their emotional well being. That should be above everything else. But that seems to be a foreign concept for the Jacksons.
 
So? She could still be removed. In fact Katherine could've filed this as the only plaintiff and not gotten the kids involved.

If Katherine had filed as the only plaintiff, i think the kids would have been called as witnesses anyway

And we don't know what the kids want, though I agree a courthouse is not a great place for teens.
 
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On cross examination, Dr. Czeisler acknowledged that the evidence showed two doctors tried to convince Jackson to seek a medical specialist for his sleep disorder and he refused.

AEG maintains this case is about personal responsibility. The Jackson family sees it as corporate negligence.


http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013...day-on-stand-in-jackson-wrongful-death-trial/

Just so sad that Michael Jackson refused to seek a medical specialist for his sleep disorder!

It would be interesting to know when & why he refused. He had this problem for so long that I think it is possible he had seen one before & knew why & and what a specialist would do.
 
It would be interesting to know when & why he refused. He had this problem for so long that I think it is possible he had seen one before & knew why & and what a specialist would do.

Yes. I was thinking the same thing.
 
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I don't recall seeing any reports from the court regarding Michaels refusal to see a sleep specialist. Maybe I missed it, maybe it wasn't reported.
 
I don't recall seeing any reports from the court regarding Michaels refusal to see a sleep specialist. Maybe I missed it, maybe it wasn't reported.
I believe they are referring to the Murry trial where 2 doctors testified they suggested MJ see a sleep specialist.
 
BTW Grace was added on the witness-list from the Jackson after Paris deposition.
 
I believe they are referring to the Murry trial where 2 doctors testified they suggested MJ see a sleep specialist.

Do you remember who ? Only Metzger & Nurse Lee testified, and I don't remeber them saying that ?
 
I believe Michael thought he could make it through with the propofol! He didn't want to take the time for more tests, other medication or whatever.
It would have been up to Murray to tell him the danger he was in. The Murray guy probably wasn't informed enough himself. I feel frustrated with Murrays hunger for money compared to his carelessness in treating his patient. That's incredible sick... the worst narcistic personality disorder I've ever experienced. The safest would be they forget him in his cell in jail.
However I do not understand Michael might dying a few days later from sleep deprivation (and from what I've learned during studies I do not believe that would have been really the case... however it's too theoretical to be argued by me... that's to me like someone saying cuz of his symptoms he would had run into a driving car and died by that accident)... what this really has to do with the trial. Is it meant to prove anything? then what is it? I really can't follow this somehow... sorry if it's clear to all already but can someone please fill me in in all shortness possible?
 
Ok all this "people can die from no sleep" is starting to freak me out as i haven been sleeping much at all :(
 
@Mechi, honestly, IMO this sleep specialists testimony is misleading, he hasn't reviewed the whole case and he seems to be making assumptions ie Michael recieving propoful for 60 consecutive days, but if he had researched the whole case he would know about Lee and he would also know that Murray worked 6 days a week not 7.

I know that some of Michaels reported ailments could be put down to sleep deprivation but I do not feel that in this case it fits with someone who was close to death. The poor people who died from FFI were completely debilitated before death and wouldn't have been able to walk into the staples centre unaided, as we saw Michael doing, nor would they be able to do any of the rehearsals we saw Michael doing, so I highly doubt that he was close to death from having no proper sleep.

Just my opinion.
 
Michael Jackson and Sleep Deprivation: Does Poor Sleep Increase Risk of Sudden Death?

By Alexandra Sifferlin @acsifferlinJune 22, 20137 Comments

Michael Jackson allegedly relied on an anesthetic to sleep, which may have actually left him slept deprived.


During the pop singer’s wrongful death trial, Dr. Charles Czeisler, a Harvard Medical School sleep expert testified against concert promoter AEG Live that propofol infusions, on which Jackson allegedly relied nightly, disrupt the body’s ability to go into rapid eye movement (REM) sleep.

Propofol interferes with the body’s normal sleep cycle and prohibits it from getting REM sleep, CNN reports. During REM sleep, brain activity looks similar to that of people who are awake, since this is the time that memories are created, and during which dreams occur. People taking propofol wake up to feeling well-rested, but don’t actually experience the full effect of being asleep.

“It would be like eating some sort of cellulose pellets instead of dinner. Your stomach would be full and you would not be hungry, but it would be zero calories and not fulfill any of your nutrition needs,” said Czeisler during his testimony on Thursday. He said that Jackson’s alleged propofol use, administered by his physician Dr. Conrad Murray, amounted to the equivalent of being sleepless for 60 straight days.

(MORE: Why Sleep Deprivation Leads to Overeating)

Could that have contributed to Jackson’s death? It’s not entirely clear what happens biologically when the body is chronically sleep-deprived in this way — aside from feeling tired and having trouble focusing. “There is one old animal model that shows that sleep deprivation ultimately caused death in rats, but this hasn’t been replicated in other animal models at all,” says Jerome Siegel, UCLA professor of psychiatry and director of the Center for Sleep Research and Chief of Neurobiology research at the Veterans Administration Greater Los Angeles Healthcare System.

Siegel says there is a misconception that less sleep can lead to a higher risk of sudden death. “Unfortunately this drives people to take sleeping pills thinking they are preventing early death, when really, there is epidemiological evidence that chronic use of sleeping pills themselves shortens lifespan whereas people with insomnia not taking sleeping pills have normal lifespan,” he says. “Often when people are losing sleep it means they are stressed in one way or another and high levels of stress certainly do shorten lifespan, but it doesn’t appear to be the sleep loss itself.”

(MORE: Sleeping Pills Linked with Early Death)

Relying on pills to doze off, can, in fact, be dangerous, since medications with benzodiazepines and nonbenzodiazepines, like Lunesta or Ambien can have a wide range of effects of different body systems. “It seems nonsensical, but the benzodiazepine receptors which these pills react on are not localized to some sleep center in the brain, they are on almost every cell in the body,” says Siegel. ”They are in the heart, lungs, the circulatory system; T-cells have them. The effect of taking a larger dose puts you to sleep, but in no way is it is a selective activation of the sleep system, so it is not surprising there will be side effects.”

Dealing with poor sleep in other ways, including making behavioral adjustments, may be safer, he says. “It’s simply [about] keeping regular hours. You want to avoid caffeine late in the day, you want to have a regular bedtime routine, you want to minimize light and sound. It helps to keep a sleep diary to know you are doing these things,” says Siegel.

And not getting anxious over your inability to sleep can also help. He says it is important to remember that it is normal to wake up in the middle of the night on occasion, but worrying about your sleep cycles will only make dozing off more elusive.



Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2013/06/...-increase-risk-of-sudden-death/#ixzz2X2fUur15
 
Ok all this "people can die from no sleep" is starting to freak me out as i haven been sleeping much at all :(

Oh bless you. No these people couldn't sleep AT ALL, they ALL had a condition that effects a portion of the brain. It was described like a switch that got stuck in one position. Don't worry yourself.
 
BTW Grace was added on the witness-list from the Jackson after Paris deposition.

See they sure want to discredit Paris. Just another example why this child should have immediately been removed as a plaintiff. Shows how much they care for those kids really......... just sad.
 
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