Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[jamba]

Michael did get REM sleep and micro-sleep during this time, which is probably why he was doing better than those poor, tortured rats did in those horrible experiments. How do I know that? !) It is from Cherilyn Lee regarding he was able to sleep naturally on April 19th, which is BTW the day after he met with Metzger at Carol;wood where they discussed his health and treatment and where Metzger testified in the CM trial that MJ did NOT ask for propofol by name. 2) CM report to police that he gave MJ propofol 6 nighta a week, not every night. 3) MJ's kids, Paris and Prince, who are reported as saying MJ would sit in front of the fire and fall asleep there (micro-napping). 4) CM says he weaned MJ from propofol after the 6/20 meeting and did not give him any til the night of June 24/25. So MJ did have natural sleep, micro-sleep (although he did not have enough of it).

Bringing up Cherilyn Lee, there is something I have recently read concerning her testimony that MJ asked her for propofol and the whole narrative she told many news organizations about how she tried to talk him out of it, showed him the PDR, argued it was not safe, etc. According to what I understand, CM ordered and received batches of propofol in early April (April 6th ?), so why then would MJ ask Cherilyn Lee to find him a doctor to give him propofol after April 19th, when the natural sleep treatment she tried did not work? Or did she not give an accurate date and did MJ ask her about propofol earlier? She said she started working for him in January when the children were ill. She would not say who referred her to him, only that it was a dear friend (supposedly a bodyguard's parent). I always thought her to be very believable, but I read this statement saying she may have lied that MJ asked her for propofol--she was a wirness for Murray's defense. Maybe this is just creating unnecessary suspicion, but when did he ask her for propofol, according to her? If it was after the 19th, Murray already had received shipments of propofol by then, so MJ asking her makes no sense. Any ideas about this??

 

[AliCat]

REM sleep in adult humans typically occupies 20–25% of total sleep, about 90–120 minutes of a night's sleep. REM sleep is considered the lightest stage of sleep, and normally occurs close to morning. During a normal night of sleep, humans usually experience about four or five periods of REM sleep; they are quite short at the beginning of the night and longer toward the end. Many animals and some people tend to wake, or experience a period of very light sleep, for a short time immediately after a bout of REM. The relative amount of REM sleep varies considerably with age. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement_sleep

Studies have shown that people sleep more efficiently when they are sleep-deprived and that they enter REM sleep faster when this is the case. Sleep studies also show that patients who sleep less move to stage 3 and REM sleep faster than patients who are not sleep deprived

I totally agree with this just from my own experience!

 

[Tygger]

sorry but are you trying to say I "name called" you? Where did I do that? Sorry but I take such accusations very seriously. I merely and briefly expressed my frustration about what I believe to be a continuing misunderstanding of what I tried to say. I never name called you or it was never personal. This however is a personal attack.

Who is being defensive now? When you characterized someone as defensive, albeit falsely, you are placing a label on that person which is equivalent to name calling. Name calling does not only happen when demeaning labels are used.

This part from today's CNN updated story "NEW: Expert says Jackson could've died within days even without overdose"

I understand very well that in your estimation Michael could not have died from sleep deprivation. It is this expert’s estimation and opinion based on the data given to him and quite an esteemed resume (I personally do not have to defend such extensive experience or him) that Michael could POSSIBLY have pass from sleep deprivation in a number of days. I have not read anywhere where the expert guaranteed Michael would have passed from sleep deprivation.

I personally do not doubt his opinion simply because Michael could NOT continue in that manner for an extensive period of time in my amateur opinion. If you choose to believe I agree with the expert’s position because he is testifying for the plaintiffs, it is fine. I choose to believe his years of experience, his very plausible argument, and my own personal feeling of the doctor’s recklessness with Michael’s health compared to a Google search.

Please do not accuse me of ignoring posts. I did not ignore your post(s) on Nurse Lee or anyone else’s post on anything in this thread because I quite enjoy reading the discussions and different points of view.

Again, Nurse Lee watched Michael sleep ONE Sunday in April. I am not going to assume he could achieve natural sleep for three hours because of ONE Sunday. If I assume Michael could sleep 3 hours every Sunday and not the rest of the week, I still believe that would not be healthy or remotely OK for the duration of that tour.

Regarding REM rebound: if I assume it happened sometime(s) during Monday and Saturday, exactly when would it be appropriate for Michael to succumb to it? During rehearsals when some said he seemed groggy? During dance rehearsals at home with Payne? Michael was not in a nine-to-five position. However, I believe he did succumb to REM rebound at various, inappropriate times but, that short duration could not make up for the profound lack of sleep every day, several days in a row. Three possible hours of sleep on a Sunday and REM rebounds could not make up for any of this.

Michael worked on the tour endlessly only to be anesthetized negligently by the doctor at night. Michael needed help and did not get it; I do not know any other way to say that.

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
AEG Attorney asked the Dr. what was the cause of death on the autopsy report and it was propofol intoxication...not sleep deprivation.
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
Dr. Czeisler conceded that the only night he knows MJ was given propofol was June 24th, 2009. He died the next day.

The defense did get the expert to admit he did not know how many days Michael received propofol and that Michael passed from propofol intoxication. The defense has maintained Michael caused his own death, not the doctor they may have allegedly hired. Gongaware and Phillips have said they do not remember if they discussed Michael’s sleep issues at anytime or that the doctor was there to help Michael with his sleep issues. Payne however, testified differently.

 

[AliCat]

REM sleep is the stage of sleep during which dreams prevail.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/548545/sleep/38762/Rapid-eye-movement-sleep

Physiology) movement of the eyeballs under closed eyelids during paradoxical sleep, which occurs while the sleeper is dreaming
associated with the dreaming phase of the sleep cycle
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rapid+eye+movement

Stage 4 sleep is the second stage of deep sleep. In this stage the brain is making the slow delta waves almost exclusively. In this stage it is also very difficult to wake someone up. Both stages of deep sleep are important for feeling refreshed in the morning. If these stages are too short, sleep will not feel satisfying.

Researchers do not fully understand REM sleep and dreaming. They know it is important in the creation of long-term memories. If a person’s REM sleep is disrupted, the next sleep cycle does not follow the normal order, but often goes directly to REM sleep until the previous night’s lost REM time is made up.
http://longevity.about.com/od/sleep/a/sleep_stages.htm

I always thought that the purpose of using Propofol for Michael Jackson was to skip the dreaming cycle, that he just wanted Stage 4. As the facts show, that the previous night's lost REM time is made up. Surely Michael would have done that through falling asleep quicker and naps. And like it brings out about the Stage 4 sleep, the second stage of deep sleep, is part of feeling refreshed in the morning. This I have always believed is why Michael did Propofol, because he felt that going into a deep sleep would help him feel refreshed in the morning. That the body will naturally catch up till REM time is made up!

 

[jamba]

Tygger, don't you realize the expert was selected by the plaintiffs for a reason? Don't you realize that the name of this expert was not drawn out of a hat? Don't you realize the staggering amt of $$ this expert is being paid by the plaintiffs? Just b/c this guy has a Harvard appointment does not make him infallible. Moreover, we don't have a complete transcript and Alan Duke or whoever is filtering what they heard. In terms of logic, if MJ could sleep 3 hours naturally one day, what makes you think it was an aberration? How can you conclude it was a one-off? We are talking about sleep, after all, a bodily necessity. Seems it would make sense to say if he could do it one day, why not another? If we assume CM gave the propofol 6 days (and CM had to have a day off so he could go to the nightclubs and strip bars, etc), then are you saying MJ stayed up all night on CM's night off??

I don't get your lack of healthy sketicism about the 'expert,' or what he MAY have said (we are relying on a news reporter's word)--you have to think about the evidence for yourself IMO. To me it is logical that MJ slept naturally sometimes, as I indicated in my previous post. There is more evidence of that than that he never had any natural sleep for 60 days, which is what the news is reporting b/c it is more dramatic and sensational.

 

[Annita]

The defense did get the expert to admit he did not know how many days Michael received propofol and that Michael passed from propofol intoxication. The defense has maintained Michael caused his own death, not the doctor they may have allegedly hired. Gongaware and Phillips have said they do not remember if they discussed Michael’s sleep issues at anytime or that the doctor was there to help Michael with his sleep issues. Payne however, testified differently.

The defense has mantained a competent doctor woud have gotten MJ help

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 7h
Dr. Czeisler believes that a fit and competent Doctor would have gotten MJ help and he would have made it through the tour

 

[bouee]

Temperature June 24th 2009 Los Angeles
http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA


Mean Temperature 69 °F = 20°C (average for the day)

Max Temperature 77 °F = 25°C

Min Temperature 61 °F = 16°C


According to weather chart temp dropped to 65 °F (= 18°C) late afternoon, if he arrived in the evening it would have been lower
So I don't see it odd or concerning MJ wore a cape or blanket


[youtube]1ZW9Ck25LR0[/youtube]

Qbee, I added Celsius conversions, to make it clear for non american people.
(You should hav seen my face the first time I heard an american weather report and I heard the temperature was 100° somewhere in the States - ie 212°F....)

 

[bouee]

@bouee,

Im sorry but they need to discredit any witness the Jacksons bring in, so yes they did need to. As sad as it is - its the nature of this trial, AEG have every right to defend themselves. If this trial hadn't been brought then neither of the children would even have had to sit for those depositions.

Now I hope it doesn't happen but depending on what the Jackson side bring up in this trial, AEG may have no choice but to put Paris on the stand. I think it would be a last resort, but they may have to.

They impeached Kai Chase on other subjects (for example when they asked if she ever witnessed the kids going to bed). I understand they could need the kids to impeach a witness, and in that regard Prince's deposition clip they used contradicted something else she said (Michael so tired he needed help to go upstairs) , and that was actually important for the trial, so I understand that.
But I will NOT caution using Paris's depo at that point, to impeach something that really doesn't matter for this trial.
IF AEG had used it to contradict the info that PG fired Grace , that would have been different, but they did not at the time.
So yes, I do believe they used Paris for another reason, and that's just disgusting IMO.

Michael did get REM sleep and micro-sleep during this time, which is probably why he was doing better than those poor, tortured rats did in those horrible experiments. How do I know that? !) It is from Cherilyn Lee regarding he was able to sleep naturally on April 19th, which is BTW the day after he met with Metzger at Carol;wood where they discussed his health and treatment and where Metzger testified in the CM trial that MJ did NOT ask for propofol by name. 2) CM report to police that he gave MJ propofol 6 nighta a week, not every night. 3) MJ's kids, Paris and Prince, who are reported as saying MJ would sit in front of the fire and fall asleep there (micro-napping). 4) CM says he weaned MJ from propofol after the 6/20 meeting and did not give him any til the night of June 24/25. So MJ did have natural sleep, micro-sleep (although he did not have enough of it).

Bringing up Cherilyn Lee, there is something I have recently read concerning her testimony that MJ asked her for propofol and the whole narrative she told many news organizations about how she tried to talk him out of it, showed him the PDR, argued it was not safe, etc. According to what I understand, CM ordered and received batches of propofol in early April (April 6th ?), so why then would MJ ask Cherilyn Lee to find him a doctor to give him propofol after April 19th, when the natural sleep treatment she tried did not work? Or did she not give an accurate date and did MJ ask her about propofol earlier? She said she started working for him in January when the children were ill. She would not say who referred her to him, only that it was a dear friend (supposedly a bodyguard's parent). I always thought her to be very believable, but I read this statement saying she may have lied that MJ asked her for propofol--she was a wirness for Murray's defense. Maybe this is just creating unnecessary suspicion, but when did he ask her for propofol, according to her? If it was after the 19th, Murray already had received shipments of propofol by then, so MJ asking her makes no sense. Any ideas about this??

1) Re Metzger : during the trial, I had the feeling (maybe I was wrong) that Metzger did not want to say the "P word", he said he didn't remember or was vague, I thought at the time he didn't want to help Murray. Or maybe Michael was just "testing the water" with Metzger not knowing if he would accept that, or maybe Michael wanted to try other things and was still not completely decided on propofol (Metzger prescribed things this day : clonazepam out of 30pills, 8 remained, prescription was 1 at bedtime & trazadone out of 60 pills, 38 remained, prescription was 2 at bedtime as needed)

Kai Chase said she saw Murray in april, but not as regurlary as in june. From the pharmacist testimony, Murray started asking for benzos on April 30. So maybe Michael was "testing" different options, I don't know.

2) I don't believe nurse Lee lied. She was keeping very precise records, and the police went to her office to get them, so she could not lie on the stand.

I have wondered too about that april 6th-19th period, I really don't know. Maybe Murray was trying to "secure" his job. If David Adams (the Las Vegas anesthesiologist) testifies, it will maybe explain some things : from what his lawyers said in the media at the time, it sounded like there was a "competition" or disagreement of some kind between him and Murray about this "job". IF I remember correctly, it could be something like Adams did not say yes straight away, and later contacted Murray to "accept" the job, and somehow this "info" may not have been given to Michael. Maybe Michael wanted 2 doctors, I don't know.


As for Dr Ceizler, I think he exaggerated his testimony, but sleep deprivation symptoms are plausible IMO.
For ex he said this :

On recross the Doctor said he believed MJ got Propofol every night all night for the 2 months before his death.

That's ignoring the benzodiazepines Murray was buying , and a rather large dose was found in Michael's system at autopsy. It's impossible to say you believe 100% Michael was receiving only propofol , for full nights .

 

[bouee]

The defense has mantained a competent doctor woud have gotten MJ help

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 7h
Dr. Czeisler believes that a fit and competent Doctor would have gotten MJ help and he would have made it through the tour

from the tweets, I'm not sure it was the defense (next tweet says "on recross"), but it's the truth I think.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 8 h

On recross the Doctor said he believed MJ got Propofol every night all night for the 2 months before his death.
Ouvrir
ABC7 Court News ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 8 h

Dr. Czeisler believes that a fit and competent Doctor would have gotten MJ help and he would have made it through the tour
Ouvrir

 

[Annita]

from the tweets, I'm not sure it was the defense (next tweet says "on recross"), but it's the truth I think.

It`s clear. Only the next tweet is recross.

 

[bouee]

It`s clear. Only the next tweet is recross.

Why is it clear?

Direct = jacksons
cross = AEG
re direct = jacksons
re cross = AEG.

The whole series of tweets (from bottom to top)

On recross the Doctor said he believed MJ got Propofol every night all night for the 2 months before his death.
Ouvrir
ABC7 Court News ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 8 h

Dr. Czeisler believes that a fit and competent Doctor would have gotten MJ help and he would have made it through the tour
Ouvrir
ABC7 Court News ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 8 h

Dr. Czeisler did however interject after the AEG Lawyer finished questions that in an NTSB investigation there are contributing factors
Ouvrir
ABC7 Court News ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 8 h

AEG Attorney asked the Dr. what was the cause of death on the autopsy report and it was propofol intoxication...not sleep deprivation.
Ouvrir

EDIT : anyway, I can see this used by both sides : jacksons saying AEG should have suspected a cardiologist was not competent for sleep issues, and AEG saying michael made a mistake choosing a cardiologist for sleep issues.

 

[Annita]

No

Direct= Jackson
Cross AEG
RE-Cross =Jackson

ABC7 Court News ‏‪@ABC7Courts
5m
On recross the Doctor said he believed MJ got Propofol every night all night for the 2 months before his death.


ABC7 Court News ‏‪@ABC7Courts‬ 2m 

Dr. Czeisler believes that a fit and competent Doctor would have gotten MJ help and he would have made it through the tour

Öffnen

ABC7 Court News ‏‪@ABC7Courts‬ 6m 

Dr. Czeisler did however interject after the AEG Lawyer finished questions that in an NTSB investigation there are contributing factors

Öffnen


ABC7 Court News ‏‪@ABC7Courts‬ 42s 

AEG Attorney asked the Dr. what was the cause of death on the autopsy report and it was propofol intoxication...not sleep deprivation.

Öffnen

 

[PurdyYungThang84]

This trial summarized in three words: Hot. A--. Mess. :ermm:

 

[bouee]

No

Direct= Jackson
Cross AEG
RE-Cross =Jackson

ABC7 Court News ‏‪@ABC7Courts
5m
On recross the Doctor said he believed MJ got Propofol every night all night for the 2 months before his death.


ABC7 Court News ‏‪@ABC7Courts‬ 2m 

Dr. Czeisler believes that a fit and competent Doctor would have gotten MJ help and he would have made it through the tour

Öffnen

ABC7 Court News ‏‪@ABC7Courts‬ 6m 

Dr. Czeisler did however interject after the AEG Lawyer finished questions that in an NTSB investigation there are contributing factors

Öffnen


ABC7 Court News ‏‪@ABC7Courts‬ 42s 

AEG Attorney asked the Dr. what was the cause of death on the autopsy report and it was propofol intoxication...not sleep deprivation.

Öffnen

I edited my post while you were writing yours, you might not have seen it, but all "direct" would be Jacksons, and all "cross" would be AEG. I don't think a journalist who sits in court all day could make that mistake. All I'm saying is that it is not clear.

 

[LastTear]

@bouee,

So yes, I do believe they used Paris for another reason, and that's just disgusting IMO.

They won't pick and chose, they will impeach everything they possibly can. What is the other reason you are thinking of?

******
I wish I understood the ruling on using on Murray's police interview, it seems as if every portion of it can be used apart from the 'who hired you'.

The sleep specialist appears to have also ignored Murray saying he was weaning him off and that the night before Michael died he managed to sleep and didn't use propoful.

In Dr. Czeisler's opinion the autopsy shows MJ's level of propofol to be that of a person going through major abdominal surgery.

I wonder if he explained to the jury about slow infusion, probably not, ^^^ this is a little misleading.

 

[bouee]

@bouee,

They won't pick and chose, they will impeach everything they possibly can. What is the other reason you are thinking of?

They CAN pick and chose. this kind of things gives a bad image of AEG IMO. If I see it that way, the jury might too. I don't know why they did that, as I said, I suspect it COULD be to keep Grace off the stand (she would have to discredit Paris or Michael, she appears as a crazy lady in this video), it could be to discredit Michael (why would he keep such a crazy nanny for so long, why didn't he fire her himself) , I don't know, maybe time will tell.

 

[LastTear]

^^^^ The jury are not emotionally involved as we are.

 

[MIST]

Studies on rats have shown many things that are not consistent with people.
For example rats got cancer when given a substance in potato chips,french fries etc and we were warned not to eat such things.
I still haven´t heard about a human who got cancer from eating it.
Humans are not rats or other animals and such studies may be taken with a pinch of salt.

I don´t think it is that attractive to do research on sleep at least you don´t here news about it.
But I believe there are many things even sleep experts don´t know yet.

Lack of sleep depletes the body, but although Michael had problems to sleep for many years he´s body was in good health.

Another thing Michael lost weight the last week and became very skinny.
If your subcutaneous fat decreases one becomes colder.

 

[qbee]

I have a question. Witnesses have been told not to say what Michael told them, another time not to state what Frank Dileo told them, because that is considered hearsay. So will Prince be able to state what Michael told him when he testifies? I noticed AEG use Paris deposition where she stated what MJ supposedly told her. Why are some allowed to use hearsay at times and others not ?

 

[bouee]

^^ I asked the same question a while ago about Frank's voicemail message to Murray. It was reported it was played in court at the beginning of the trial (Orando Martinez, LAPD I think), then not allowed twice (Panish wanted to use it) during Phillips testimony.

I assumed it was hearsay because Frank left the message to Murray, and not Phillips, but it left me ??

 

[LastTear]

I am also confused about what is being allowed and what isn't. I thought to begin with it was because Michael and Dileo were deceased but it doesn't seem to always fit. When they played the portions of Paris's deposition she is clearly verbalising what Michael told her, it's been shown to the court so therefore has been allowed into evidence. Confused.

Equally, as I said earlier I still don't understand why AEG can't use Murray's police interview, or one statement anyway, and yet specialists testimonies are relying on that interview. I understand that AEG could call Murray, but so could the Jacksons. perhaps I am confusing this with a criminal trial, but I would have thought that it is Jacksons responsibility to prove their case.

Is there a chance that if the Judge feels that the Jacksons have not proved their case that she could throw it out, before AEG side begins?

 

[bouee]

Equally, as I said earlier I still don't understand why AEG can't use Murray's police interview, or one statement anyway, and yet specialists testimonies are relying on that interview. I understand that AEG could call Murray, but so could the Jacksons. perhaps I am confusing this with a criminal trial, but I would have thought that it is Jacksons responsibility to prove their case.

I suppose an expert is different, as he is asked what he bases his opinion upon, and that could be a lot of things, not necessarily all detailed in court ?

 

[8701girl]

Is that true, i.e. Murray gave Michael propofol for SIXTY DAYS STRAIGHT?

Does anybody remember what day it was when Michael attended that "bogus" anniversary dinner party for his parents, wherein most, if not all of the immediate family was in attendance? I'm thinking it was sometime in May.

I think it was around may 19

 

[ivy]

Tygger, don't you realize the expert was selected by the plaintiffs for a reason? Don't you realize that the name of this expert was not drawn out of a hat? Don't you realize the staggering amt of $$ this expert is being paid by the plaintiffs? Just b/c this guy has a Harvard appointment does not make him infallible. Moreover, we don't have a complete transcript and Alan Duke or whoever is filtering what they heard. In terms of logic, if MJ could sleep 3 hours naturally one day, what makes you think it was an aberration? How can you conclude it was a one-off? We are talking about sleep, after all, a bodily necessity. Seems it would make sense to say if he could do it one day, why not another? If we assume CM gave the propofol 6 days (and CM had to have a day off so he could go to the nightclubs and strip bars, etc), then are you saying MJ stayed up all night on CM's night off??

I don't get your lack of healthy sketicism about the 'expert,' or what he MAY have said (we are relying on a news reporter's word)--you have to think about the evidence for yourself IMO. To me it is logical that MJ slept naturally sometimes, as I indicated in my previous post. There is more evidence of that than that he never had any natural sleep for 60 days, which is what the news is reporting b/c it is more dramatic and sensational.

thank you, thank you.

 

[bouee]

thank you, thank you.

Why that ?

:no:

 

[LastTear]

I'm not entirely sure where the sleep specialist is getting this information from., we know Murray had days off so this statement is inaccurate.

On recross the Doctor said he believed MJ got Propofol every night all night for the 2 months before his death.

 

[ivy]

About hearsay

- opening and closing statements is not considered as evidence, it's narrative of the lawyers, so therefore it has a lot more relax nature and does not generally subject to hearsay. Therefore playing Dileo's voice mail, mentioning Murray's police interview happened during opening statements.

- in a trial you want the person to take stand , take an oath to tell the truth and the jury to be able to see the demeanor of the people as well. This is believed to be needed to determine honesty of a person.

[ Edited to add : rules of evidence
1) Before being allowed to testify, a witness generally must swear or affirm that his or her testimony will be truthful.
(2) The witness must be personally present at the trial or proceeding in order to allow the judge or jury to observe the testimony firsthand.
(3) The witness is subject to cross-examination at the option of any party who did not call the witness to testify. ]

- the main issue with hearsay is actually cross examination. to be fair , when you introduce any statement as an evidence parties want to cross examine that, they might want to challenge that statement. When they can't cross examine it becomes problematic. For example Frank Dileo is dead and he cannot be asked about his voicemail and no one else can explain what he meant and so on so you can see how those could be problematic. For example on the other hand Grace could be asked about what Paris claimed Michael told her, hence Grace can challenge that statement.

- there are a lot of exceptions to hearsay. for example Michael Bush's statement of being able to see Michael's heartbeat was allowed as "excited utterance" - a statement you make in excitement when you see something (such as imagine you are looking from the window and see your next door neighbor shooting his wife, you scream "oh my god he killed his wife" and the person overhearing your scream can testify to that)

- another exception is offering a statement for the state of the mind and not the truth. for example I say "this is most scary thing I have every seen" and being the "most" scary thing might be the truth or not. If a statement is offered for state of mind and not the truth, it comes with the explanation that it might not be the most scary thing and the statement is not being offered as it being the "most scary" thing but my statement merely showed that I was scared.

[ edited to add : example
If an attorney wishes the judge or jury to consider the fact that a certain statement was made, but not the truthfulness of that statement, the statement is not hearsay and may be admitted as evidence. Suppose a hearing is held to determine a woman's mental competence. Out of court, when asked to identify herself, the woman said, "I am the Pope." There is little question that the purpose of introducing that statement as evidence is not to convince the judge or jury that the woman actually is the Pope; the truthfulness of the statement is irrelevant. Rather, the statement is introduced to show the woman's mental state; her belief that she is the Pope may prove that she is not mentally competent. ]

- during Karen Faye's testimony the alleged statements by Michael about AEG, tour and so on was objected on the grounds of hearsay and Karen was instructed to not say what Michael told her. There were several reasons for that - one being the cross examination issue as Michael cannot be cross examined about such statements. For example hypothetically if Michael said "I hate Randy Phillips" and Karen was able to say that, there's no way to cross examine and challenge that. Second of all it's prejudicial, such statement might make jury form negative opinions about Phillips and does not allow for a fair determination of who hired Murray. (AEG lawyers have stated that in a wrongful death lawsuit decedents statements cannot be used against defendants - Jacksons lawyers disagree)

[edited to add: relevant example
Nicole Brown Simpson's Journals: Inadmissible as Hearsay
During the 1995 criminal trial of O. J. Simpson, the prosecution argued that Simpson killed his former wife Nicole Brown Simpson, and that the murder was the culmination of a long pattern of Domestic Violence. The prosecution discovered in a safe-deposit box journals that Brown Simpson had written concerning her problems with Simpson. The journals contained graphic language and described episodes of physical violence and threats committed by Simpson. They appeared to be a powerful demonstration of the couple's relationship, yet they were never entered into evidence at the criminal trial, and Simpson was acquitted in the killings of his former wife and her friend Ronald Lyle Goldman.
The journals were inadmissible because they constituted hearsay evidence. The rules of evidence are generally the same in every state and federal jurisdiction. In California, where Simpson's criminal trial was held, hearsay evidence cannot be admitted unless it meets the requirements of a well-defined exception.
Oral hearsay (what one person tells another about a third person) is the same as written hearsay. In her journal Brown Simpson told readers what Simpson did to her. With her death, there was no way for the defense to challenge her memory, perception, and sincerity about what she had written. The rules of evidence view such nonchallengeable out-of-court statements as unreliable when they are intended to prove the truth of the matter they assert—here, that Simpson had beaten Brown Simpson, stalked her, and made her fear for her life. For the same reasons, the journals were not admitted at Simpson's civil trial in 1997, in which he was found liable for the wrongful deaths of Brown Simpson and Goldman.]

- finally this case is about what AEG knew or should have known. any statement that is not communicated to them is not really relevant. For example Dileo could have told Murray "do a blood test to find out what he's taking" but if that statement or let's say Dileo's suspicion of drug possibility wasn't told to AEG it doesn't matter. Similarly Michael could have told Karen "these shows are too much" but if that wasn't told to AEG it doesn't matter.

 

[ivy]

Why that ?

:no:

I was agreeing with the post and believe it was saying what I wanted to say. Is there a problem with me agreeing with a post?

I'm not entirely sure where the sleep specialist is getting this information from., we know Murray had days off so this statement is inaccurate.

now be careful, he's a wonderful doctor and if you dare to point out how he omitted Murray's days off you can be accused of believing Murray over the wonderful Harvard sleep specialist.

 

[bouee]

I was agreeing with the post and believe it was saying what I wanted to say. Is there a problem with me agreeing with a post?

It's adding fuel to the fire in a way, and I don't believe that's what Tygger said.

Your opinion is very clear, we are all able to read and understand what you meant, so everybody can have their opinion.

 

[ivy]

It's adding fuel to the fire in a way

honestly you are now adding fuel to the fire. I did my best to not reply (to the last post) and ignore the accusations about me. Do you really want to start it again? Because I'm still angry about those and I can sure can reply in a great detail. so perhaps it's best to not to get involved in an exchange that you aren't a part of to start with and especially when one party chose to not respond anymore.