Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[bouee]

Is that true, i.e. Murray gave Michael propofol for SIXTY DAYS STRAIGHT?

Does anybody remember what day it was when Michael attended that "bogus" anniversary dinner party for his parents, wherein most, if not all of the immediate family was in attendance? I'm thinking it was sometime in May.

15th May ? (i'm not 100% sure). Nobody was worried apparently at that time.
Edit : didn't Katherine say she saw him the last week, or in the last 10 days ?

I don't think it meant 60 days straight propofol. I mean, can a human being survive wthout sleep for 60 days ? Has anyone even tried it ? (I think I heard the Nazis tried something like that in concentration camps).

I think it meant a lot of propofol, on a regular basis, not necessarily 60 days straight, or 60 "full nights" of propofol.

 

[LastTear]

As for the security camera footage, I think he's wearing a hooded cape (his head is covered) and not a blanket. and I think that cape could be seen in another picture

to me it almost looks like the capes they wear at Harry Porter movies

I hate to nit pick, but....... Those ^^^^^^ are more like capes a Hobbit would wear, Hogwarts capes are black. Lol

 

[Big Apple2]

15th May ? (i'm not 100% sure). Nobody was worried apparently at that time.
Edit : didn't Katherine say she saw him the last week, or in the last 10 days ?

I don't think it meant 60 days straight propofol. I mean, can a human being survive wthout sleep for 60 days ? Has anyone even tried it ? (I think I heard the Nazis tried something like that in concentration camps).

I think it meant a lot of propofol, on a regular basis, not necessarily 60 days straight, or 60 "full nights" of propofol.

Okay, thanks bouee.

When I saw that "60 Days" headline, my eyes almost popped out of my head. I guess it's just Alan Duke, TRYING to be dramatic, as usual.

I know in one of the interviews Mother did right after Michael died, she said something like "he looked and acted the same to her, the last time she saw him," or words to that effect.

 

[Big Apple2]

I hate to nit pick, but....... Those ^^^^^^ are more like capes a Hobbit would wear, Hogwarts capes are black. Lol

You know this talk about "capes" and "hoods" and "hooded capes," and Michael being cold, reminded me of a picture I saw a while back.

Michael is on stage, wearing like a dark grey parker type coat, with hood, and there was grey fur around the hood. He was doing some dance moves, while wearing that coat. Big ole smile on his face.

Does anybody remember that particular picture?

 

[ivy]

 

[bouee]

Okay, thanks bouee.

When I saw that "60 Days" headline, my eyes almost popped out of my head.

I know in one of the interviews Mother did right after Michael died, she said something like "he looked and acted the same to her, the last time she saw him," or words to that effect.

Yes, and Shafer said they saw no adverse affects on ICU patients who had had propofol for 50 days. but those patients were not as active as Michael was , and had benzos during the day, so that would be a more "natural sleep"

Murray was buying benzos, he obviously used them at some point. He bought a lot of propofol too, so he used some also, obviously.

So it will be hard to pinpoint EXACTLY what Murray was doing. With no medical records by Murray, no expert will be able to give a 100% clear picture.

I think Murray probably did a mix of some kind, and using too much propofol could have induced lack of sleep , which could explain the lack of sleep symptoms.

From what we heard so far, I think those "symptoms" were gradually worse, which could explain why some people saw them earlier than others (so far the "early part' comes essentially from professionals , and Kai Chase, who had not seen him for some time). I think it became really obvious to most in the last week or 10 days.

 

[LastTear]

I am very interested to know if these questions will be allowed

Czeisler is back on the witness stand Friday to answer a question that was asked just as court ended Thursday. Jackson lawyer Michael Koskoff asked his expert what may also be a record breaker in a trial -- a 15-minute-long hypothetical question.He was asked to render an opinion based on a long list of circumstances presented so far in the trial about Jackson's condition and behavior, including:
-- That Murray administered propofol to Jackson 60 consecutive nights before June 22, 2009.
-- That Murray began to wean Jackson from propofol on June 22, 2009, and gave him none of the drug on June 23.
-- That a paramedic who tried to revive him the day he died initially assumed he was a hospice patient.
-- That show producers reported Jackson became progressively thinner, paranoid and was talking to himself in his final weeks.
-- That the production manager warned Jackson had deteriorated over eight weeks, was "a basket case" who he feared might hurt himself on stage and could not do the multiple 360 spins that he was known for.
-- That show director Kenny Ortega wrote Jackson was having trouble "grasping the work" at rehearsals" and needed psychiatric help.
-- That Jackson needed a teleprompter to remember the words to songs he had sung many times before over several decades.
-- That show workers reported the singer was talking to himself and repeatedly saying that "God is talking to me."
-- That Jackson was suffering severe chills on a summer day in Los Angeles and his skin was cold as ice to the touch.

I understand that the questions are hypothetical, but it does say 'based on circumstances presented', has the 60 consecutive days been presented at trial?

 

[mjchris]

[youtube]GQ5q2FzFfN4[/youtube]

 

[LastTear]

Ivy, you conjured that image quicker than Harry Potter could! Tadaaaa! Too funny.

 

[Big Apple2]

ivy, you are the freakin man (or lady in this case - LOL!)

That's the exact clip I was talking about.

Without knowing for sure, sometimes I think SOME artist, not just Michael, might wear "certain things" in anticipation of the costumes they might wear while actually performing on stage.

On a side note: HE IS SO CUTE! THAT SMILE STILL MELTS MY HEART. LOVE YOU MJ!

Okay, I'm going back to watch that clip again.

 

[Big Apple2]

Look at Alan Duke trying to downplay what Paris said about Grace. He's such a dang tool. LOL!

So I guess he will soon be calling Prince and Paris' deposition clips, the SMOKING GUN CLIPS, borrowing those words from the SMOKING GUN emails.

 

[mjchris]

i think a link was postet some days ago, from the last days, t-mez..

[youtube]LSm2vCj9fYw[/youtube]

 

[Big Apple2]

I know T-Mez is on Mother's witness list, I wonder if he is actually going to make it to the witness stand.

I took another look at Mr. Panish's witness list and there is NO way he is going to be able to put all of those folks on the witness stand, between now and July 8th. NO WAY!

I mean, even a few of Michael's siblings on the witness stand now, would use up the majority of time Mr. Panish has left.

And then of course there's Ray Parker, Jr. Mr. Panish won't be able to conclude his case, without putting Ray Parker, Jr. on the witness stand. LOL!

 

[Big Apple2]

I was just thinking when Karen Faye gets back on the witness stand, AEG should ask her about that clip ivy posted above.

Ask her to explain why Michael was wearing that heavy coat while doing some of his Smooth Criminal dance moves. Since she "claims" to know so much about Michael and his life, maybe she can give the jury a reasonable explaination. I don't know about anybody else, but I'd certainly like to know what she has to say about it.

 

[Aprilmay]

Oh geez @ Karen coming back

Maybe the reason Grace was fired is because she knew about what MJ was doing. Like visiting Klien and Murray being there. Maybe she was trying to stop him and he didn't like it. The drugs were controlling him. It was easy for him to have someone else fire her. Grace had been around for a while. She was the kids mother in a sense the kids loved her. Hate Grace or not I believe if she was not fired MJ would be alive. She was overprotective but maybe that was not a bad thing after all. My bet is they were a couple at times. Just a theory no facts just a gut feeling.

I agree.

And I feel bad for both Paris and Grace. I dont understand why this video footage was released in the first place. Its extremely awkward now since Grace came back in their life now. Just imagine how Paris is feeling after she found out that video made headlines everywhere. Does she feel bad about it now?
Bad timing. She dont need the stress

I wonder also what this pic is about? Its from 2011. Judging from the video Paris seemed to not care for Grace much. So this was really shocking
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BvCf-H4Zx...e-From-Paris-With-Ex-Nanny-Grace-Rwaramba.png

 

[loveforever]

Michael was so adorable and happy :wub:.

 

[Big Apple2]

And I feel bad for both Paris and Grace.

I feel bad for the both also.

In my opinion, Paris should never have been put into a position wherein she had to reveal a PRIVATE conversation she had with her father.

And if I were Grace, I'd be both embarrassed and devasted. I mean, those dang clips are EVERYWHERE!

I'm not sure if she's on Mother's witness list, but if she is, chances are she will never make it to the witness stand now. Her usefulness has been shattered.

 

[bouee]

I was just thinking when Karen Faye gets back on the witness stand, AEG should ask her about that clip ivy posted above.

Ask her to explain why Michael was wearing that heavy coat while doing some of his Smooth Criminal dance moves. Since she "claims" to know so much about Michael and his life, maybe she can give the jury a reasonable explaination. I don't know about anybody else, but I'd certainly like to know what she has to say about it.

It would be pointless, there are too many people who said they saw blankets and that Michael was cold the last days. Off the top of my head : Sankey, Travis, Karen, Ortega, Kai Chase, Paris . Not including my favourite "Staples center was freezing cold" by Phillips.

 

[serendipity]

Here's MJ wearing similar cape in the beginning of Another Part Of Me video

at 0:33

 

[Big Apple2]

It would be pointless, there are too many people who said they saw blankets and that Michael was cold the last days. Off the top of my head : Sankey, Travis, Karen, Ortega, Kai Chase, Paris . Not including my favourite "Staples center was freezing cold" by Phillips.

It's not pointless if you don't know the reason behind him wearing the grey parka during his Smooth Criminal rehearsal.

Maybe just like at the Staples center, he was cold.

I've seen folks with wife beaters on, and folks with sleeves on, and other folks with jackets on. Some folks sweat alot, and some folks don't sweat alot. Those rehearsal spaces are probably always cooler then an average space, in my opinion. I've seen many artist leave the stage and wrap themselves into something warm, because they have sweated so badly, the pores are open and that makes them cold.

Anyway, it would ONLY be pointless if it doesn't help Mother's side. LOL!

 

[bouee]

And I feel bad for both Paris and Grace. I dont understand why this video footage was released in the first place. Its extremely awkward now since Grace came back in their life now. Just imagine how Paris is feeling after she found out that video made headlines everywhere. Does she feel bad about it now?
Bad timing. She dont need the stress

I agree with you, and think it was totally unnecesary for AEG to impeach Kai Chase with this. What will that change in the hiring claim or in the damages ? Nothing.
And they did not use it to explain why PG fired Grace. So why now ?

There must be a "strategical reason" that I don't get.
EDIT : I think they probably want to keep Grace off the stand, and / or maybe use it to discredit Michael and/or the kids.


Below is what I found in the Ivy's trial summary about Grace, she's not on any witness list, and we know that Panish said earlier, before Paris suicide attempt that the Jacksons were not able to locate her. Since that, Grace is back in the picture.

----

"AEG says Gongaware firing nanny Grace at Michael’s order is irrelevant to the matters at hand. They say AEG never employed or paid Grace and Gongaware was given an already prepared letter and just contacted Grace because Michael told him to".

"Katherine says when Michael left for Bahrain he put $500,000 to Grace's bank account and Katherine was given access to that bank account. Katherine says this was the only money she got from Michael in that time period. She says at that time Janet also gave her $10,000."

 

[bouee]

It's not pointless if you don't know the reason behind him wearing the grey parka during his Smooth Criminal rehearsal.

Maybe just like at the Staples center, he was cold.

I've seen folks with wife beaters on, and folks with sleeves on, and other folks with jackets on. Some folks sweat alot, and some folks don't sweat alot. Those rehearsal spaces are probably always cooler then an average space, in my opinion. I've seen many artist leave the stage and wrap themselves into something warm, because they have sweated so badly, the pores are open and that makes them cold.

Anyway, it would ONLY be pointless if it doesn't help Mother's side. LOL!

Was he cold in the beginning of june , or may ? apparently not.

 

[Big Apple2]

Here's MJ wearing similar cape in the beginning of Another Part Of Me video

That reminds me of the "cover-ups" we hand out to the runner's after they finish the New York City Marathon.

Those are silver and we give them to the runners who are cold after they finish the race. Some of them don't request it, but many others do.

 

[Big Apple2]

Was he cold in the beginning of june , or may ? apparently not.

I have no idea and neither do you!

He could have been warm one day, and cold the next day, warm the following day, then cold again. Who knows for sure.

Anyway, didn't Kai Chase testify that Michael liked to keep the fire places lit, along with music playing AT ALL TIMES. Seems odd that somebody living in California would have their fire place on AT ALL TIMES. Don't you think?

 

[bouee]

I have no idea and neither do you!

He could have been warm one day, and cold the next day, warm the following day, then cold again. Who knows for sure.

Anyway, didn't Kai Chase testify that Michael liked to keep the fire places lit, along with music playing AT ALL TIMES. Seems odd that somebody living in California would have their fire place on AT ALL TIMES. Don't you think?

I don't have any idea, I justy go by what I read from the testimonies ..

Paris herself said that, so ?

Edit :

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...tory-Summary?p=3794589&viewfull=1#post3794589

Paris says one week before his death Michael was complaining about his body temperature would fluctuate from hot to cold.

 

[Big Apple2]

Re: What Paris said, didn't Nurse Lee basically say something similar, i.e. "Michael was cold and hot."

She told him he should go to the hospital, but he didn't feel the need to go I guess.

In my opinion, if he didn't listen to Nurse Lee, a certified medical professional, he certainly wasn't going to listen to anything a NON-MEDICAL ENTITY like AEG had to say, i.e. "I'm fine, now mind your business!"

 

[LastTear]

I agree with you, and think it was totally unnecesary for AEG to impeach Kai Chase with this. What will that change in the hiring claim or in the damages ? Nothing.
And they did not use it to explain why PG fired Grace. So why now ?

There must be a "strategical reason" that I don't get.
EDIT : I think they probably want to keep Grace off the stand, and / or maybe use it to discredit Michael and/or the kids.


Below is what I found in the Ivy's trial summary about Grace, she's not on any witness list, and we know that Panish said earlier, before Paris suicide attempt that the Jacksons were not able to locate her. Since that, Grace is back in the picture.

----

"AEG says Gongaware firing nanny Grace at Michael’s order is irrelevant to the matters at hand. They say AEG never employed or paid Grace and Gongaware was given an already prepared letter and just contacted Grace because Michael told him to".

"Katherine says when Michael left for Bahrain he put $500,000 to Grace's bank account and Katherine was given access to that bank account. Katherine says this was the only money she got from Michael in that time period. She says at that time Janet also gave her $10,000."

Wasn't the subject of Grace raised by the Jacksons lawyers first? I doubt if this would keep Grace off the stand, if anything, she would be chomping at the bit to get on there.

I don't know if it's just me but imo 99% of what is brought to this trial has nothing to do with the hiring of Murray.

$10k from Janet? How very generous of her. :no:

 

[serendipity]

LOL @ Alan Duke trying to downplay what Paris said about Grace and how she's just a "confused teenager" and in the next breath excitedly claims how the kids will testify how MJ was afraid of AEG etc. I guess for that testimony they are not "confused teenagers"

 

[ivy]

Was he cold in the beginning of june , or may ? apparently not.

month doesn't matter when you are in a closed space with air conditioning.

for example currently it is 90 degree outside but my work place is 65 to 68 degrees. so not only I'm wearing long pants (which looks like too much for the 90 degree weather outside) but I'm also wearing a thick sweater while I'm inside.

Also it's not hard to believe that Staples would be "freezing". Such venues have airconditioning systems that are powerful enough to cool the place when it's full & all lights on. When it's not full they tend to be on the cold side.

 

[Annita]

[youtube]GQ5q2FzFfN4[/youtube]

Does Duke say the Jackson-Lawyer said he wouldn`t bring in Paris deposition in court but the AEG-lawyer did it and a little time later Duke announced that Paris and Prince deposition will bring big news against AEG. That`s a little bit confusing.