Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Smooth72]

We don't know when he told her this story. My guess would be he told her later.

Maybe the reason Grace was fired is because she knew about what MJ was doing. Like visiting Klien and Murray being there. Maybe she was trying to stop him and he didn't like it. The drugs were controlling him. It was easy for him to have someone else fire her. Grace had been around for a while. She was the kids mother in a sense the kids loved her. Hate Grace or not I believe if she was not fired MJ would be alive. She was overprotective but maybe that was not a bad thing after all. My bet is they were a couple at times. Just a theory no facts just a gut feeling.

 

[Big Apple2]

Maybe the reason Grace was fired is because she knew about what MJ was doing. Like visiting Klien and Murray being there. Maybe she was trying to stop him and he didn't like it. The drugs were controlling him. It was easy for him to have someone else fire her. Grace had been around for a while. She was the kids mother in a sense the kids loved her. Hate Grace or not I believe if she was not fired MJ would be alive. She was overprotective but maybe that was not a bad thing after all. My bet is they were a couple at times. Just a theory no facts just a gut feeling.

Good point Smooth72.

Had Grace been around, she "might" have questioned Murray SPENDING THE NIGHT, dang near everynight. I know I would have said: Hey, what's up with that guy? What's the big secret in your bedroom?"

In my opinion, Grace would have been in a better position to ask those questions, unlike say Kai Chase.

I'm also not sure how Michael would have handled the "nobody is allowed in my bedroom" rule, with Grace. Since it appears as if she had total access to MJ, his children and his home for many, MANY years.

Was Grace with Michael the entire time he was in Bahrain?

 

[Justthefacts]

Michael prob only used Propofol when he was touring. So I wonder how much Grace knew about him using it?

 

[bouee]

are we really comparing a chef to a doctor now?

No, comparing a tour "employee" to a personal employee.

my understanding is they had $17.5 M insurance secured. The illness part would become active after the second medical. Their issue was they wanted to insure the full production cost - $30+ Million- but they could not find any insurance to cover that.

I'm not sure the illness part was agreed upon at all. Gongaware's e mail that I quoted makes it sound like it was not. The second medical was scheduled in july, so at that point, there was no insurance... and Michael appeared to be ill.

It was not June 20th. She said first - second week of June and Gongaware was present. So it must be the meeting in early june.

I re read her testimony, and now I'm not sure. She doesn't mention Ortega, and it was said that Ortega was in all meetings with CM. So, if Ortega really was in all meetings, maybe she is confusing Gongaware and Ortega ? (why would she know them anyway ? )
She also said at that meeting Michael was wearing several layers, a surgical mask and was cold, so that would be the 20th, he was not cold before (or maybe the cold feeling had started on 17th/18th for the "intervention/ meeting", he was not cold in early june).

Not clear IMO, it could be any meeting except 1st week of june, or they could have talked about several meetings during her testimony.

I had the same feeling during Phillips's cross, it was not clear what meeting he was talking about.

Yeah even though they brought in another doctor, they could not get that doctor to check Michael without his permission.

yes, that's why it said "imposed" . Still better than threatening to pull the plug a force Michael to go to rehearsals.
did Phillips even suggest it ? No.

 

[Big Apple2]

Michael prob only used Propofol when he was touring. So I wonder how much Grace knew about him using it?

She was with him for years and years.

I'm sure she is and was privy to a bunch of things.

Aside from that, if "some" fans knew about past propofol use, then I'm sure Grace knew even more.

 

[bouee]

Michael prob only used Propofol when he was touring. So I wonder how much Grace knew about him using it?

Maybe history tour ? I'm not sure though

 

[Smooth72]

Michael prob only used Propofol when he was touring. So I wonder how much Grace knew about him using it?

I would bet she knows all about the propofol and other things he has done. To take it a bit father I would guess Murray talked MJ into getting rid of grace because my bet is she questioned Murray quit a bit about what the hell was going on. She knew I'm telling I bet she tried to stop it. Murray jacked MJ up and told him she was a problem and they needed to get her out of there. Seems logical to me. After hearing the recorded message from the iPhone of Murray in court I would bet that is a pretty good possibility. Murray probably told him he and MJ could take care of the kids. There is more to this story I'm sure. If my memory serves me correct I think Friedman reported years ago that Grace would watch him while he was under the propofol. Grace being fired was not a good thing in my opinion.

 

[Soundmind]

if she knew she would have been called to testify during Murray trial, she was deposited , no where did the police mention anything about her saying she knew about propofol . Remember the police did say she told us this and that about drugs .However, no mention at all of propofol. During the opening statement , they said this doctor gave this , Debbie knew that...etc, but no one said Grcae said anything about propofol.

 

[smoothlugar]

I re read her testimony, and now I'm not sure. She doesn't mention Ortega, and it was said that Ortega was in all meetings with CM. So, if Ortega really was in all meetings, maybe she is confusing Gongaware and Ortega ?

My idea is that Ortega was not present in all meetings with CM, at least in the criminal trial, when asked by Chernoff about a previous meeting on June 18th (probably he got the date wrong, though that meeting was also mentioned in KJ complaint), he said he did not attend that meeting...

Kai Chase says Murray was the second to leave the meeting, after MJ and we know from the criminal trial (and I think also from Phillip's recent testimony now) that on the meeting on June 20th, Ortega left earlier and also my idea from the criminal trial is that according to Chernoff, Phillips was reprimanding Murray at the end of the meeting (RP said that even the roll paper, everything was "his"...and the like... if you remember).

So, I think Chase is talking about the meeting on June 15th. (Besides, I think ABC, mentions the date...).

 

[bouee]

My idea is that Ortega was not present in all meetings with CM, at least in the criminal trial, when asked by Chernoff about a previous meeting on June 18th (probably he got the date wrong, though that meeting was also mentioned in KJ complaint), he said he did not attend that meeting...

Kai Chase says Murray was the second to leave the meeting, after MJ and we know from the criminal trial (and I think also from Phillip's recent testimony now) that on the meeting on June 20th, Ortega left earlier and also my idea from the criminal trial is that according to Chernoff, Phillips was reprimanding Murray at the end of the meeting (RP said that even the roll paper, everything was "his"...and the like... if you remember).

So, I think Chase is talking about the meeting on June 15th. (Besides, I think ABC, mentions the date...).

yes, that makes sense. I too remember that Ortega said he left earlier on june 20th (Phillips said they all left together, but that's not the subject...).

So someone (Gongaware) forgot that he was at that meeting ? And so Michael was already cold then ?

How many meetings with Murray do you think there was ? i'm getting confused , I thought 3 : early june, mid june (intervention, so that would be june 17th or 18th) and june 20th.

EDIT , from Ortega's testimony, CM Trial

- Ortega states that there was a meeting on 6/19, with the heads of AEG, Randy Phillips and Gongaware. Ortega heard that Phillips and Gongaware told MJ that if he didn't start showing up to rehearsals, the This Is It tour would be cancelled.

-On 6/20/09, Ortega is asked to go to MJ's house for a meeting with Randy Phillips, Frank Dileo, Conrad Murray and MJ. The topic is that Murray is upset that Ortega home. Murray tells Ortega that he should stop being an amateur doctor, and leave that to Murray. Ortega clarifies that he did not make the decision to send Michael home on the rehearsal date 6/19, it was a mutual decision between Ortega and MJ. Ortega states that Murray's demeanor is stern.

 

[Smooth72]

if she knew she would have been called to testify during Murray trial, she was deposited , no where did the police mention anything about her saying she knew about propofol . Remember the police did say she told us this and that about drugs .However, no mention at all of propofol. During the opening statement , they said this doctor gave this , Debbie knew that...etc, but no one said Grcae said anything about propofol.

Maybe she left that out on purpose to protect something? I sure heard about rumored use of "milk" for years. I'm sure most of us did. I wish I could find the Friedman article years ago. If I remember it stated she laid in a cot next to his bed to make sure he was ok. Anyone recall this? Maybe I'm wrong?

 

[gerryevans]

I never said Paris was lying. I actually dont believe Michael was being truthful.
"He kept bringing her back because she had no money" What? How is this possible? Was he not paying her? "he felt sorry for her" How do you feel sorry for someone who lies and tries to get in bed with you without your approval? How is it possible for this women to get away with telling a hotel employee she's his wife and is allowed in his room? These things makes no sense to me.
This story about Michael and Grace sleeping together in the same bed have been circulating since 2005. You mean to tell me he took "crazy" Grace and only Grace with him out of the country with his children, and had put her in charge of booking their stay- knowing good and well you dont like this woman and she has tendencies of crawling in bed with him? "He was always trying to get rid of her but she just keeps coming back" Huh?



Some things doesnt add up.

Maybe she didn't become nutty until after she'd worked for him for a while and until then had been a fantastic nanny.
That MJ effect is pretty powerful. I can imagine MJ liking her as his nanny, being personal with her in a platonic sense, and her imagining it being more than he intended eventually. People tended to become territorial of him. He was very special, and being around him made the people he let into his personal space, feel special as well.

By the time he realized, the bad was FAR outweighing the good with her, a little of keep your friends close, and your enemies closer could have been at play here. So many people had betrayed him, maybe he didn't want to have an angry former nanny twisting things and making comments about him like his wife Lisa Marie did, Bob Jones, and so many others.

Just send her to India. Hilarious

 

[Big Apple2]

Maybe she left that out on purpose to protect something? I sure heard about rumored use of "milk" for years. I'm sure most of us did. I wish I could find the Friedman article years ago. If I remember it stated she laid in a cot next to his bed to make sure he was ok. Anyone recall this? Maybe I'm wrong?

I never heard that before, but I also never heard about any propofol use until after Michael died.

But it does sound familiar to what Debbie Rowe is supposed to testify to. That being that she would stay by Michael's side, in order to ensure that nothing bad happened.

 

[smoothlugar]

So someone (Gongaware) forgot that he was at that meeting ? And so Michael was already cold then ?

How many meetings with Murray do you think there was ? i'm getting confused , I thought 3 : early june, mid june (intervention, so that would be june 17th or 18th) and june 20th.

Why? Gongaware said he was at that meeting (the one Kai Chase testified about, the one he mentions in an email would be on a Monday 15th, -unless it finally took place on a later date, and not as stated on the email of June 14th...).

About the number of meetings in June, I'm confused. Sorry...:doh:

 

[serendipity]

if she knew she would have been called to testify during Murray trial, she was deposited , no where did the police mention anything about her saying she knew about propofol . Remember the police did say she told us this and that about drugs .However, no mention at all of propofol. During the opening statement , they said this doctor gave this , Debbie knew that...etc, but no one said Grcae said anything about propofol.

Yes and if she changes her story now it wouldn't look good to the jury. I'm very suspicious of Grace after her interview with tabloid hack Daphne Barack, that was clearly designed to create bad publicity for MJ when he arrived in London for the start of his tour. I tend to believe what MJ told Paris and others about her.

 

[smoothlugar]

if she knew she would have been called to testify during Murray trial, she was deposited , no where did the police mention anything about her saying she knew about propofol . Remember the police did say she told us this and that about drugs .However, no mention at all of propofol. During the opening statement , they said this doctor gave this , Debbie knew that...etc, but no one said Grcae said anything about propofol.

CM defense tried to call her as a witness but Judge Pastor denied it and the trial concentrated only in the 3 last previous months. But I agree with your last part about the opening statements and that no one mentioned her in relation to that.

 

[Tygger]

and why is murray wrong? even though you think he was a production expense , Michael was responsible for 95% of his salary and until Michael took the stage, earned money enough to pay back the production costs ($30 + Million) and started earning money, AEG was advancing every salary.

are we really comparing a chef to a doctor now?

from roger friedman

"Rwaramba has just put up a website named for the cause, World Accountability for Humanity."


A couple yrs ago I saw the website for Grace's charity. It was started in March 2009 as I recall, and reading the site I thought, half joking, "this sounds like $ laundering" & sent it to some friends. They thought the same, and the joke became "MJ is alive and she's funneling money to him". It seems the foundation's purpose was to match donors w/ charities that interested them, any where in the world. A kind of middleman, or directory service. One of those friends dug around and found that the address listed was for a PO box in Beverly Hills.

Now all I find is this, dated May 29 2009: "Rwaramba has just put up a website named for the cause, World Accountability for Humanity. Yes, it’s a mouthful, and a little highfalutin’ considering once you get there, it’s not completely clear what’s going on.... Most of the information on World Accountability ‘ or WAFH ‘ is vague. It seems to be about “transparency for donors and recipients.” I’m not sure if the donations are transparent, or the people giving or getting the money."

http://www.showbiz411.com/2009/05/29/20090529*****-nanny-charity-michael-jackson

Ivy, no worries if you disagree with me. However, I am not comparing a chef to a doctor. I am comparing a clear case of an employee whose salary was advanced to Michael compared to a doctor who was allegedly hired as an independent contractor and included in the pre-production budget. It is not what I think. He WAS in the pre-production budget and it was characterized as a mistake after Michael's passing due to the fatal errors of the doctor.

Thank you for the information on the foundation. This does not sound like Michael set this up as was said by ABC7.

I was just thinking though i remember that pic of michael in 2009 with the kids walking and prince was only 12 then and looking at him in that pic hes not as build up muscular wise as he is now. So he probably wouldnt been able to hold mchael up the stairs...i dont know..

Agreed. The oldest was not strong enough to help his father physically alone but, I do not see this child not trying to help in that situation.

 

[bouee]

Why? Gongaware said he was at that meeting (the one Kai Chase testified about, the one he mentions in an email would be on a Monday 15th, -unless it finally took place on a later date, and not as stated on the email of June 14th...).

About the number of meetings in June, I'm confused. Sorry...:doh:

PG said he met Murray once at a meeting , he said early june, to make sure Murray "had everything he needed", then another time at the forum, and that was it. To me, that meeting was not related to the "remind him " e mail, it was before that.

 

[serendipity]

Why? Gongaware said he was at that meeting (the one Kai Chase testified about, the one he mentions in an email would be on a Monday 15th, -unless it finally took place on a later date, and not as stated on the email of June 14th...).

About the number of meetings in June, I'm confused. Sorry...:doh:

If we are that confused, imagine the jury...... :lol:

CM defense tried to call her as a witness but Judge Pastor denied it and the trial concentrated only in the 3 last previous months. But I agree with your last part about the opening statements and that no one mentioned her in relation to that.

Yea, they probably wanted her to testify about demerol, since this was Murray's defense and I wouldn't be surprised if that what the family gets her to testify about. They were going on and on about demerol......

 

[Tygger]

The scenarios of dogs, trees and old people really don't work because they are missing a key element, patient confidentiality. Hence why Ivy showed us the word or in front of supervising. Besides which all these other contractors we are talking about can be fired, AEG could not fire Murray.

The reason the word "or" is emphasized in the claim is to show the plaintiff using this claim only has to attempt to prove one term: hiring, supervision, OR retention. If "or" was replaced with "and," the plaintiff would have to attempt to prove all three terms.

This case is focused on hiring. AEG could fire the doctor if it is proven they allegedly hired him.

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger, confused, what did you mean by this

Agreed. The oldest was not strong enough to help his father physically alone but, I do not see this child not trying to help in that situation.

 

[smoothlugar]

If we are that confused, imagine the jury...... :lol:

Whew...! But that's going to be their only duty for a while, and I suppose they can even take notes of actual testimony. Sooo, following a trial by only tweets is much hardeeeeeeer!!! LOL

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger, my understanding s that they could terminate the agreement if Murray did not obtain his licences, the tour was cancelled or if Mchael didn't want him anymore.

 

[jrsfan]

Maybe she left that out on purpose to protect something? I sure heard about rumored use of "milk" for years. I'm sure most of us did. I wish I could find the Friedman article years ago. If I remember it stated she laid in a cot next to his bed to make sure he was ok. Anyone recall this? Maybe I'm wrong?

Yes that was reported.

 

[Ashtanga]

Hate Grace or not I believe if she was not fired MJ would be alive.

:blink:

If Grace (and others) over the years knew many things... probably she (and others) did nothing to try to help Michael. In fact, many people knew about it huh? But the reality is different and very sad ... everyone says knew, but no one really did nothing to help Michael. I have not seen any of these people report anything to try to help Michael in some way. It just curious.... *big sigh*

I definitely believe Paris/Michael's story about Grace. Creepy indeed.

Michael and PPB are the only reliable sources. Nobody else. -_-

I don't feel that I will find truth in verbal reports of the events leading up to the 25th June.

So true! I'm sure the majority also thinks that way.

 

[Lisha]

If I can't see truth in supposedly factual information unconnected with the trial, I don't feel that I will find truth in verbal reports of the events leading up to the 25th June.

That's an interesting statement. Good point.

 

[marebear]

The kids should have been left out of this. This whole thing makes me sick and does anyone think this is what Michael would want for them? Talking for hours to lawyers asking them personal questions. Michael hated it when he had to do it and would not want his kids to go through it at all. I am sorry but it's unforgiveable. Michael NEVER, EVER used his kids for any reason. We don't know all the reasons why Paris did what she did but the very fact that she did this during this trial is heartbreaking. A lot of people should be ashamed of themselves right now. It's not okay for them to hear all this garbage being said about their father. He was the sweetest and loving dad a person could have and yet the other grandkids are protected from hearing nasty things about their dads who were not even on the same level at being a dad as Michael. In my eyes the Jacksons and AEG used Michael and never treated him as a real human being. They all say they cared about Michael but they all just care about themselves. The kids should have been protected end of story.

 

[smoothlugar]

^^ Interesting Myosotis' point on factual info regarding Californian snails and the association with the conflicting testimonies we are hearing/reading.

PG said he met Murray once at a meeting , he said early june, to make sure Murray "had everything he needed", then another time at the forum, and that was it. To me, that meeting was not related to the "remind him " e mail, it was before that.

I thought the meeting he is referring was precisely the one mentioned in that email. That was my impression when he changed testimony from depo to say the meeting was only to make sure Murray had everything. If he wanted to know that from Murray he could have only asked him, AFTER he received his first draft by Kathy Jorrie, and if I'm not wrong, she said in Murray trial that the first draft contract for Murray was on 13th June. Gongaware also said that MJ had come from AK (June 16th?)

About the meeting where the vase was broken, Gongaware doesn't recall and Phillips said the vase was broken in a production meeting prior to June 20th...

Gongaware often pleaded poor memory of events. He said he may have met with Jackson as many as 10 times, but could remember only two of the meetings and only one when Murray was present.(AP)

Gongaware said he doesn't remember how many meetings he attended at Carolwood house. He didn't recall a meeting where a vase was broken.

Meeting on June 20th happened in the afternoon, Phillips said. Panish asked if MJ was shaking in that meeting. Phillips said no, not at all. Vase was broken in one of production meetings, Phillips explained. He said Frank Dileo, Paul Gongaware, himself were present. Phillips said he doesn't know who broke the vase, but he thinks it may have been Frank DiLeo. (ABC7) Phillips denied a vase was broken during the June 20th meeting at MJ's house. He said that happened at an earlier meeting. Phillips said he thought Frank Dileo may have broken the vase. There wasn't more spelled out about what happened in today's testimony. (AP)

[/QUOTE]

So someone (Gongaware) forgot that he was at that meeting ? And so Michael was already cold then ?

It seems more than a coincidence that Gongaware mentioned those cold sweats, it doesn't matter whether he was joking or not, but how could he know about the cold sweats??

In May, Gongaware sent an email to Tim Leiweke's secretary, Carla Garcia, wrote that he couldn't tell her which day the "This Is It" concerts would open in London because Jackson hadn't shown up to rehearsal (LATimes) asking her to pray for him, since everything was a nightmare. Email on 5/5/09 from Gongaware to Carla Garcia: Pray for me. This is a nightmare. Not coincidentally, I have them now every night. Cold sweats too. Life used to be so much fun... (ABC7) It was not an admission that he was concerned about Jackson's ability to do the show, he said. "It was just playing around, joking," with AEG President Tim Leiweke's assistant, Carla Garcia, he testified.

 

[Aquarius]

Does anyone know how many cooks are in the kids home?

I understood the estate was paying for all the household expenses but now Kai said Katherine is paying her salary, how could that be? Hiring Kai in this time of need is kind of suspicious to me. Now probably Katherine is going to claim Kai's salary as a necessary expense that her son would had paid if he were alive.

I wonder is Kai'd still work for Katherine after the trial.

 

[AliCat]

I'm wondering if Paris Jackson's testimony is based on what Michael Jackson told Paris Jackson as to why Grace wasn't coming back in April of 2009.

I don't know about Grace though. She sounds like a real interesting character, dishonest, sneaky, and she lied alot, a real, true role model. Yep...bring Grace back into Paris Jackson's life, not!

This trial is a nonstop state of confusion. I mean what was the purpose of Kai Chase, to get the Jury to feel sorry for the children and just find AEG Live guilty because the children are sad. Yep, a nonstop state of confusion!