Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[sfosteredi]

Oh geez @ Karen coming back



I agree.

And I feel bad for both Paris and Grace. I dont understand why this video footage was released in the first place. Its extremely awkward now since Grace came back in their life now. Just imagine how Paris is feeling after she found out that video made headlines everywhere. Does she feel bad about it now?
Bad timing. She dont need the stress

I wonder also what this pic is about? Its from 2011. Judging from the video Paris seemed to not care for Grace much. So this was really shocking
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BvCf-H4Zx...e-From-Paris-With-Ex-Nanny-Grace-Rwaramba.png

Neither Paris or Prince should have been put in this position. They should not be plaintiffs in a civil suit. If Ms. Jackson wanted to sue, fine. They should not have their names anywhere on it. They have enough money and enough stress. I would not have wanted anyone recording and releasing statements I made when I was 15.

 

[Big Apple2]

Does Duke say the Jackson-Lawyer said he wouldn`t bring in Paris deposition in court but the AEG-lawyer did it and a little time later Duke announced that Paris and Prince deposition will bring big news against AEG. That`s a little bit confusing.

In my opinion, Mr. Duke is so far up Mother's butt, he can't even see straight.

He's "probably" hoping that all of his good deeds will garner him a sitdown with Paris Jackson, once she is back home and settled in. He better hope Oprah doesn't beat him to it.

 

[Big Apple2]

for example currently it is 90 degree outside but my work place is 65 to 68 degrees. so not only I'm wearing long pants (which looks like too much for the 90 degree weather outside) but I'm also wearing a thick sweater while I'm inside.

Same thing goes for the offices I work in.

Most of us are wrapped up in shawls or bulky long sleeve sweaters and we can't wait until lunchtime so that we can go outside and warm up.

 

[smoothlugar]

It's not pointless if you don't know the reason behind him wearing the grey parka during his Smooth Criminal rehearsal.

Maybe just like at the Staples center, he was cold.

I've seen folks with wife beaters on, and folks with sleeves on, and other folks with jackets on. Some folks sweat alot, and some folks don't sweat alot. Those rehearsal spaces are probably always cooler then an average space, in my opinion. I've seen many artist leave the stage and wrap themselves into something warm, because they have sweated so badly, the pores are open and that makes them cold.

Ok, maybe it’s not so pointless after all and I agree with what you say above. In fact for a long time that was my explanation for the episode of the “blanket” taken separatedly, TILL I saw Ortega reading his email in the criminal trial of CM. From that context and corroborated by other recent testimonies and emails, I cannot see that episode isolatedly, but within another whole picture.

@bouee: About the 3 dates of meetings witnesses have provided: early June, mid June and 20th June, they basically coincide with the dates mentioned in the demand, 19th June, 20th June, but in the demand there is also some reference to early May... Nothing relevant so far, just to clarify myself...

 

[Big Apple2]

Alright Dr. Czeisler is still on the witness stand and testified that:

"Murray had ordered OVER 4 gallons of propofol during APRIL, May, and June."

What happened in the month of April - has it ever been established that Murray was giving Michael propofol as early as April?

 

[Big Apple2]

Okay so Mother's sleep specialist is earning A BIG FAT $950.00 per hour.

He also earned $250.00 listening to that big question that is posted above, from Mother's attorney.

Then he earned an additional $300.00 listening to Mother's attorney clarifying that question.

I have no idea if Mother will make any money out of this farce, but the EXPERT WITNESSES will surely be earning a nice piece of change, that's for sure.

The sleep expert also says that Michael Jackson suffered from a CHRONIC SLEEP DISORDER that was greatly exaggerated while MJ was on tour or preparing for tour.

I'm not sure how that helps Mother's case. I mean, if Michael had a CHRONIC SLEEP DISORDER, didn't anybody in his family know about it.

It may have been greatly exaggerated on tour, but even when he wasn't on tour, "apparently" he suffered from a CHRONIC SLEEP DISORDER.

Any doctor that has ever examined Michael in his lifetime, should have had that information in their records. What a sad, sad shame. This could have all been avoided and taken care of years ago.

 

[ivy]

I wonder what makes the doctor say Michael was "totally" sleep deprived. I thought Murray worked 6 days. And something from Dr. Shafer Q&A.

MJJC: What are the known effects on the nervous system & the brain of long term Propofol use?

Dr. Steve Shafer: Not a lot, because it is rarely used for long term use. I have been able to find one report of a patient who received propofol in the intensive care unit for 51 days. This is from the conclusion of the article: “To our knowledge, this report represents the first documentation of propofol use for long-term sedation in a mechanically ventilated pregnant patient and the longest duration of continuous infusion propofol published in the medical literature. Propofol was used for 51 days with no documented maternal adverse events.” (Tajchman SK, Bruno JJ. Prolonged propofol use in a critically ill pregnant patient. Ann Pharmacother. 2010;44:2018-22)

This patient was weaned from propofol over several days without adverse consequences. So administration for 2 months appears to not have long term consequences, at least based on this example, and the fact that Michael Jackson continued to function at rehearsal. However, those are just two data points. More research needs to be done if one contemplates development of propofol for long term use.

 

[LastTear]

So the judge allowed the question, they just clarified some points?

 

[Tygger]

Re Prince, thanks, yes I agree, I'm sure Prince would help but as he has testified that he has never helped him up the stairs I guess that means he didn't witness his father needing help, unless we hear anything differently later on.

Re Firing, I'm sure AEG would agree with you. Your original post said: Which is not the case (as I understand it), but I do agree with you that AEG should not be involved between Michael and the doctor, and again I'm sure AEG would agree with you.

AEG does not agree with me actually. I agree with you that these were reasons given to fire the doctor. What I am saying is AEG should not have ANY reason to fire the doctor because they should not have allegedly hired him. All reasons for termination should have laid with Michael and Michael alone.

Oh, Ok. i meant AEG had not signed it, so AEG could have pulled out. I checked the contract, and it doesn't say who was supposed to sign it at AEG.
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...AEG-Contract?p=3428429&viewfull=1#post3428429

Great catch Bouee!

I find the testimony of Dr. Czeisler is quite profound. He is a sleep specialist while Dr. Shafer was a propofol specialist for lack of a better title. Ivy, the example Dr. Shafer spoke of was done professionally in a hospital setting not by a desperate, rogue doctor in a bedroom. Even in Dr. Shafer's example, the patient was weaned off of propofol again, by professionals.

 

[serendipity]

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 10m
In reviewing correspondences between members of the crew, the Doctor believes MJ is showing signs of chronic sleep deprivation.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 8m
Those symptoms include weight loss, confusion, memory difficulties, paranoia, and anxiety.

^Could that explain Kai Chase's testimony that MJ appeared frightened?

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger Ethically I agree with you, I don't believe anyone should involved in the hiring o a personal doctor for another person. However, it's not against the law, and of course the question remains as to whether AEG actually hired him.

I found Dr Czeisler's testimony to be very sad but I'm not actually holding much store by it, only because all that he is testifying to is based on clear hindsight and that no lay person would have the knowledge, even if they knew of MJ's insomnia, to place those symptoms together and realise what the issues were.

 

[ivy]

I find the testimony of Dr. Czeisler is quite profound. He is a sleep specialist while Dr. Shafer was a propofol specialist for lack of a better title. Ivy, the example Dr. Shafer spoke of was done professionally in a hospital setting not by a desperate, rogue doctor in a bedroom. Even in Dr. Shafer's example, the patient was weaned off of propofol again, by professionals.

I think Dr. Czeisler is making several assumptions which may or may not be true.

For example he's assuming Michael was totally sleep deprived - which may not be true if Murray was only working 6 days of a week and if he wasn't giving Michael all the time. From Czeisler's own testimony :

"ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 19h
"If you didn't get REM sleep yesterday, you'll have REM rebound tonight, you might fall directly into sleep," Dr. Czeisler said."

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 19h
Rats deprived of all sleep died on 21 days, rats selectively deprived of sleep died in 37 days. Recovery occurred in 1-3 days in those rats.

So according to him after a while you don't get REM sleep, you are in a rebound stage and once you sleep recovery occurs in 1-3 days.

His testimony makes it sound like even if Michael was sleep deprived / Propofol given 6 days, he could have been recovered Sundays.

Furthermore yes lab rats have died when they are totally sleep deprived and he said it was never tried on humans and he said it "would likely" cause death in humans as well. However the report Dr. Shafer cited has shown a totally REM sleep deprived woman for 51 days (over 7 weeks) who did not die while rats in similar situation died in 21 days.

ps: I'm not talking about Propofol setting in a hospital. I'm just focusing on the sleep setting, in Dr. Shafer's example you have a woman who was totally REM sleep deprived for 51 days.


Edited to add: Actually I googled and see the below

Complete absence of sleep over long periods is impossible for humans to achieve (unless they suffer from fatal familial insomnia); brief microsleeps cannot be avoided.[3]

Microsleeps
Microsleeps occur when a person has a significant sleep deprivation. The brain automatically shuts down, falling into a sleep state for a period that can last from a fraction of a second up to half a minute. The person falls asleep no matter what activity he or she is engaged in. Microsleeps are similar to blackouts and a person experiencing them is not consciously aware that they are occurring.

and

The average survival span for patients diagnosed with FFI after the onset of symptoms is 18 months.

The disease has four stages, taking 7 to 18 months to run its course:
The patient suffers increasing insomnia, resulting in panic attacks, paranoia, and phobias. This stage lasts for about four months.
Hallucinations and panic attacks become noticeable, continuing for about five months.
Complete inability to sleep is followed by rapid loss of weight. This lasts for about three months.
Dementia, during which the patient becomes unresponsive or mute over the course of six months. This is the final progression of the disease, after which death follows.

-------------

so as you can see "NEW: Expert says Jackson could've died within days even without overdose" is an exaggeration. even in FFI after complete inability to sleep death takes 9 months. I'm surprised that he doesn't perhaps knows FFI or exaggerating with "within days" testimony.

 

[LastTear]

Interesting that this sleep specialists is basically describing FFI, and yet that conditions name has not been mentioned. FFI is a genetic condition, so in such a large family one would think somebody else would suffer with it as well.

 

[Tygger]

Did Dr. Czeisler address FFI or microsleep? I still find testimony to be profound and I am learning.

I did not know the doctor had a day off. Regardless, I cannot assume Michael slept on that day off; if he did, he would not need the doctor. I cannot assume Michael had microsleep either. The woman who did not have REM sleep for 51 days was professionally monitored for the duration. She was not rehearsing for a 50 show residency and dealing with pressures Michael had.

 

[ivy]

Interesting that this sleep specialists is basically describing FFI, and yet that conditions name has not been mentioned. FFI is a genetic condition, so in such a large family one would think somebody else would suffer with it as well.

well if he was explaining FFI wouldn't he know the death takes 7 to 18 months and not "within days". Also what he's describing in regards to Michael seems to be only the first stage of FFI. Plus Lee have testified that Michael was able to sleep 3 hours on his own so he did not have a "complete" inability to sleep.

Regardless, I cannot assume Michael slept on that day off; if he did, he would not need the doctor.

Actually we can assume that. Nurse Lee have testified that she watched Michael sleep and he was able to sleep 3 hours on his own. Given that and added with Czeiler's "REM Rebound" testimony, it can be assumed that Michael would be able to sleep at least several hours on his own.

Plus my understanding is Michael were not able to get a full nights 7 -8 hours sleep, he was able to sleep for few hours - 3 hours.

 

[bouee]

Wasn't the subject of Grace raised by the Jacksons lawyers first? I doubt if this would keep Grace off the stand, if anything, she would be chomping at the bit to get on there.

I don't know if it's just me but imo 99% of what is brought to this trial has nothing to do with the hiring of Murray.

$10k from Janet? How very generous of her. :no:

Yes, this line of questioning about Grace was irrelevant from the Jacksons, I agree. Did AEG really need to sink even lower using Paris' depo ? No.

I wonder what makes the doctor say Michael was "totally" sleep deprived. I thought Murray worked 6 days. And something from Dr. Shafer Q&A.

MJJC: What are the known effects on the nervous system & the brain of long term Propofol use?

Dr. Steve Shafer: Not a lot, because it is rarely used for long term use. I have been able to find one report of a patient who received propofol in the intensive care unit for 51 days. This is from the conclusion of the article: “To our knowledge, this report represents the first documentation of propofol use for long-term sedation in a mechanically ventilated pregnant patient and the longest duration of continuous infusion propofol published in the medical literature. Propofol was used for 51 days with no documented maternal adverse events.” (Tajchman SK, Bruno JJ. Prolonged propofol use in a critically ill pregnant patient. Ann Pharmacother. 2010;44:2018-22)

This patient was weaned from propofol over several days without adverse consequences. So administration for 2 months appears to not have long term consequences, at least based on this example, and the fact that Michael Jackson continued to function at rehearsal. However, those are just two data points. More research needs to be done if one contemplates development of propofol for long term use.

Form what dr Shafer (or was it this other very interesting doctor, the sleep sepcialist) said on the stand during Cm trial , ICU patients were receiving propofol during the night, midazolam (benzos) during the day. So if they slept during the day, which is possible in an ICU, they would have got some "real sleep".

It has to be taken into account also that ICU patients are not as active as Michael was.

There was also that experiment that was cited in CM trial in China with I think 60 or so patients, who were given propofol to INDUCE sleep (ie not all night) for 2 weeks, and recovered from insomnia, with no adverse effects.

I would have to re read what that sleep specialist said today on the stand, but I wouldn't take it 100% lack of sleep, as if Murray was ONLY using propofol for the whole night, because he was clearly not.

When we asked Shafer about those weird symptoms in the Q&A he said side effect of propofol, flu, benzo withdrawal. I think you could add and/or between each cause.

I suffered from severe sleep disorders myself a few years ago, ending up with no sleep for up to 48 hours , and then 2-3 hours, sometimes a lot more and then no sleep for 1 or 2 days. I was not as active as Michael was, and I never had all those symptoms Michael showed, and I think I can tell you that you do not recover in one day from such a lack of sleep.

Bottomline, it would be good to have this testimony in full, not in tweets or one article from alan Duke that could be exaggerated , but the essence of it might have some truth, in the sense that those symptoms could be lack of sleep.

Some of you already pointed out earlier in this thread that those symptoms could be due to propofol because Murray was not an anesthesist, so that doctor could be saying exactly what you said earlier.

I think it's possible that Murray used TOO MUCH propofol, but he definitely not used ONLY propofol.

^Could that explain Kai Chase's testimony that MJ appeared frightened?

Maybe , but that wouldn't be the only cause IMO.

I found Dr Czeisler's testimony to be very sad but I'm not actually holding much store by it, only because all that he is testifying to is based on clear hindsight and that no lay person would have the knowledge, even if they knew of MJ's insomnia, to place those symptoms together and realise what the issues were.

Yes, I agree, their point was to say a sleep specialist was more indicated than a cardiologist, especially if you think that they were aware of Michael's sleep issues, and that they witnessed Michael "deteriorating" under Murray's care.
But clearly AEG are not doctors , so they could not have diagnosed anything themselves, and that testimony should not be so long.

Ok, maybe it’s not so pointless after all and I agree with what you say above. In fact for a long time that was my explanation for the episode of the “blanket” taken separatedly, TILL I saw Ortega reading his email in the criminal trial of CM. From that context and corroborated by other recent testimonies and emails, I cannot see that episode isolatedly, but within another whole picture.
.

That's completely true. Michael WAS cold , I think there is no point in arguing about that IMO. Too many people said that, from both sides, including Paris. Then you have all the rest : Michael losing weight, Michael deteriorating, Michael having a "terrible case of the chills" coming from Ortega who has worked and known Michael for over 20 years, Michael not able to use a fork, heaters brought to his room, people who touched him and said he was cold...
Maybe Staples Center has air conditionning, but 1- Michael was coming from outside when he had this blanket on, 2- Other people would have mentionned it , 3- You wouldn't see people in short sleeves.

 

[ivy]

Some information

Nurse Lee Testimony


On April 12 easter Sunday. Lee visited MJ. MJ told her he had a sleep problem and nothing she gave him was working. Lee offered to do a sleep study in his home and MJ said he didn't have time for that.

MJ wanted her to see he couldn't sleep and asked her to stay a night and watch him to sleep. Lee agreed. MJ had "sleepy tea" (a herbal tea), had myers cocktail and Vitamin C IV. The catheter was on his hand because MJ had very small veins. Michael had also joked that he had "squiggly veins". Other than being small he had no problems with his veins. Lee watched him to sleep for 5 hours. MJ waked up around 3 AM.

MJ said he had trouble sleeping and asked her to watch him sleep. He told Lee that he had a pattern of 2 to 3 hours sleep.

Lee checks her records and corrects that MJ actually slept 3 hours (not 5 hours) according to her records. When MJ woke only sleeping 3 hours on April 19th he wasn’t happy.

April 19 night MJ fell asleep at 12:15 AM and woke up around 3:15AM.

----------------------------------------

so he was able to sleep 3 hours on his own with no drugs.

------------------------------------------------

Murray's police interview

Dr. Murray: With the exception of nights I was off, which was on a Sunday.

Detective Smith: So you were there 6 nights of a week?

Dr. Murray: Yes

Detective Smith: And Sunday was typically your day off?

Dr. Murray: Yes

-------------------------------

and Murray worked 6 days a week.

--------------------------------

I would say it's safe to assume that Michael was able to sleep at least 3 hours on Sundays if not more due to REM rebound.

 

[bouee]

Some information

Nurse Lee Testimony


On April 12 easter Sunday. Lee visited MJ. MJ told her he had a sleep problem and nothing she gave him was working. Lee offered to do a sleep study in his home and MJ said he didn't have time for that.

MJ wanted her to see he couldn't sleep and asked her to stay a night and watch him to sleep. Lee agreed. MJ had "sleepy tea" (a herbal tea), had myers cocktail and Vitamin C IV. The catheter was on his hand because MJ had very small veins. Michael had also joked that he had "squiggly veins". Other than being small he had no problems with his veins. Lee watched him to sleep for 5 hours. MJ waked up around 3 AM.

MJ said he had trouble sleeping and asked her to watch him sleep. He told Lee that he had a pattern of 2 to 3 hours sleep.

Lee checks her records and corrects that MJ actually slept 3 hours (not 5 hours) according to her records. When MJ woke only sleeping 3 hours on April 19th he wasn’t happy.

April 19 night MJ fell asleep at 12:15 AM and woke up around 3:15AM.

----------------------------------------

so he was able to sleep 3 hours on his own with no drugs.

------------------------------------------------

Murray's police interview

Dr. Murray: With the exception of nights I was off, which was on a Sunday.

Detective Smith: So you were there 6 nights of a week?

Dr. Murray: Yes

Detective Smith: And Sunday was typically your day off?

Dr. Murray: Yes

-------------------------------

and Murray worked 6 days a week.

--------------------------------

I would say it's safe to assume that Michael was able to sleep at least 3 hours on Sundays if not more due to REM rebound.

that's very interesting, maybe possible , but I think it's assuming too much. you would have to take into account the benzodiazepine, and possible side effects of them, especially if given IV : impossibility of sleeping without them after a while. And take into account anxiety, which must have been increasing I suppose, from when nurse Lee was seeing Michael.

I'm not saying what you say is impossible, I'm just saying we're on a slippery road, as we are not doctors ourselves, and don't really know what Murray was doing.

 

[Tygger]

well if he was explaining FFI wouldn't he know the death takes 7 to 18 months and not "within days". Also what he's describing in regards to Michael seems to be only the first stage of FFI. Plus Lee have testified that Michael was able to sleep 3 hours on his own so he did not have a "complete" inability to sleep.

Actually we can assume that. Nurse Lee have testified that she watched Michael sleep and he was able to sleep 3 hours on his own. Given that and added with Czeiler's "REM Rebound" testimony, it can be assumed that Michael would be able to sleep at least several hours on his own.

Plus my understanding is Michael were not able to get a full nights 7 -8 hours sleep, he was able to sleep for few hours - 3 hours.

He slept in front of Nurse Lee for whatever amount of time and it was not enough for him. Was Nurse Lee at his home on a Sunday by chance? Correct me if I am wrong but, she watched him sleep one night in April, not during May and/or June.

I will maintain the belief that Michael did not sleep on Sundays because he would not need the doctor if he did. Every individual's need for sleep is different. He seemed to believe he could achieve the type of sleep he wanted with propofol and it would be safe if he was monitored.

I do not know how often Michael could achieve, as you say, 3 hours of natural sleep. This may be acceptable for others, however, it was not enough for him.

 

[ivy]

3- You wouldn't see people in short sleeves.

You cannot generalize it like that. In my office where it is 65 to 68 degrees I wear a thick sweater but my secretary has an additional fan and she sweats and complains it is hot. Different people have different preference for heat and body fat is an important factor. for example by boyfriend would only wear tshirts during winter while I wear 3 layers. Even summer months I have cold feet. My boyfriend can handle air conditioner and 65 degrees or so with tshirts and shorts, while I freeze in air conditioners and prefer at least a 75 degree environment.

This may be acceptable for others, however, it was not enough for him.

did I say anywhere that it was enough? No, absolutely not. my point was he wasn't in a complete sleep deprived state and in a position to die "within days" because of no REM sleep. that's still an exaggeration to me.

Was Nurse Lee at his home on a Sunday by chance?

actually April 19, 2009 was a Sunday so yeah.

 

[Tygger]

did I say anywhere that it was enough? No, absolutely not. my point was he wasn't in a complete sleep deprived state and in a position to die "within days" because of no REM sleep. that's still an exaggeration to me.

That may be an exaggeration for you however, we do not know how much sleep Michael needed. He could have very well have been sleep deprived and it sounds likely to me. You are saying he may have slept 3 hours ONE Sunday in front of Nurse Lee. Let's say that is true every Sunday. What about the rest of the week? Would you feel grand sleeping 3 hours a week?

I am interested if the testimony included any studies by gender.

 

[marebear]

I just want to say seeing Michael in that footage just makes me sad. I can't help it.

 

[LastTear]

@bouee,

Yes, this line of questioning about Grace was irrelevant from the Jacksons, I agree. Did AEG really need to sink even lower using Paris' depo ? No.

Im sorry but they need to discredit any witness the Jacksons bring in, so yes they did need to. As sad as it is - its the nature of this trial, AEG have every right to defend themselves. If this trial hadn't been brought then neither of the children would even have had to sit for those depositions.

Now I hope it doesn't happen but depending on what the Jackson side bring up in this trial, AEG may have no choice but to put Paris on the stand. I think it would be a last resort, but they may have to.

 

[smoothlugar]

Form what dr Shafer (or was it this other very interesting doctor, the sleep sepcialist) said on the stand during Cm trial , ICU patients were receiving propofol during the night, midazolam (benzos) during the day. So if they slept during the day, which is possible in an ICU, they would have got some "real sleep".

@bouee: The report Dr. Shafer cited says there was "continuous infusion" of propofol during the whole 51 days.

 

[Ashtanga]

[youtube]1ZW9Ck25LR0[/youtube]

Who's who in the video.... :scratch:

Dileo?

 

[qbee]

Temperature June 24th 2009 Los Angeles
http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA


Mean Temperature 69 °F (average for the day)

Max Temperature 77 °F

Min Temperature 61 °F


According to weather chart temp dropped to 65 °F late afternoon, if he arrived in the evening it would have been lower
So I don't see it odd or concerning MJ wore a cape or blanket


[youtube]1ZW9Ck25LR0[/youtube]

 

[Virre]

And Michael has always been a bit of a "cold" person, it's not often when you touched him and he would be warm. He's a freezing person. People who worked with him has said they would sweat a lot being at his place because he liked to have it hot inside his house. So him freezing inside Staples would not be so strange, and if you are tired you do start freezing, at least I do. When I've been awake way to long I start to shake because of freezing.

 

[ivy]

That may be an exaggeration for you however, we do not know how much sleep Michael needed. He could have very well have been sleep deprived and it sounds likely to me. You are saying he may have slept 3 hours ONE Sunday in front of Nurse Lee. Let's say that is true every Sunday. What about the rest of the week? Would you feel grand sleeping 3 hours a week?

sigh you don't get it or just don't want to get it. death by sleep deprivation only happens if a person absolutely cannot sleep for months - it requires total inability to sleep, no REM sleep whatsoever. I'm saying that MJ would have died "within days" is an exaggeration. Even the FII shows that death happens after 9 months the start of complete inability to sleep which just wasn't present at Michael. it's that simple.

I never said 3 hours is enough or he would be rested or he would feel good and so on. He wouldn't be. His sleep pattern of 3 hours - according to what MJ told Nurse Lee - is also the reason why Michael was seeking Propofol.


I know you support a certain side but it doesn't mean we need to blindly accept everything a party says. This doctor believes Michael was sleep deprived for 6 weeks based on Murray's police interview. The same interview says Murray was only working 6 days hence Michael only getting Propofol 6 days a week. Even that interview shows there wasn't a "complete" Propofol administration. The same interview also claims in the last days that Murray was weaning of Michael from Propofol and he was able to sleep- hence getting REM sleep and was in the rebound. So as you can see if we look to the whole interview and accept everything said there you will see that he's exaggerating and omitting parts.

 

[Tygger]

Ivy, I am sighing as well. It is very difficult to attempt a discussion with someone who chooses name calling or false characterization as a response to a disagreement.

Michael could not sleep. Dr. Czeisler agreed propofol is not a sleep aid just like Dr. Shafer did in the criminal trial. If Michael could sleep for the amount of time and way he wanted to sleep, he would not the services of the doctor. That is a FACT so, exactly what is upsetting about this expert’s testimony? This expert, as Last Tear said, is using hindsight and the data given to him (which was more than the doctor’s police interview) to give his best estimate without diagnosing Michael personally.

At what point during testimony yesterday or today did this expert, Dr. Czeisler, say Michael died from sleep deprivation? When did he discuss FII or microsleep? Can you quote the Twitter summaries or media articles where these things were said by the expert? Can you quote my posts where I said Michael died from sleep deprivation?

You can continue to try to discredit every expert and witness that may seem to support a certain side. You can continue to believe that I blindly accepted the testimonies of any expert or witness you feel I may have. I cannot control those actions. However, when you are done with that, please ask yourself why you blindly believe and rationalize the testimonies and actions of AEG’s witnesses who, for the most part, do not remember anything that happened four years ago except when they feel the memory will not incriminate them. Also ask yourself why you believe the doctor’s police interview when he had no records to prove anything he gave Michael and Dr. Shafer proved the amounts he gave the last night were false.

 

[ivy]

Ivy, I am sighing as well. It is very difficult to attempt a discussion with someone who chooses name calling or false characterization as a response to a disagreement.

sorry but are you trying to say I "name called" you? Where did I do that? Sorry but I take such accusations very seriously. I merely and briefly expressed my frustration about what I believe to be a continuing misunderstanding of what I tried to say. I never name called you or it was never personal. This however is a personal attack.

Michael could not sleep. Dr. Czeisler agreed propofol is not a sleep aid just like Dr. Shafer did in the criminal trial. If Michael could sleep for the amount of time and way he wanted to sleep, he would not the services of the doctor. That is a FACT so

and I agree with that. Actually let me repeat, I agree, I agree, I agree. As I said for 3 times now, by all accounts (Michael telling to Nurse Lee and Nurse Lee's witnessing) Michael was able to sleep only 3 hours on his own and he wanted to sleep more and asked for Propofol and that's why he needed the services of a doctor. I'm not talking about that - not even a little bit.

, exactly what is upsetting about this expert’s testimony?

This part from today's CNN updated story "NEW: Expert says Jackson could've died within days even without overdose"

At what point during testimony yesterday or today did this expert, Dr. Czeisler, say Michael died from sleep deprivation? When did he discuss FII or microsleep? Can you quote the Twitter summaries or media articles where these things were said by the expert?

Again today's updated CNN article ""NEW: Expert says Jackson could've died within days even without overdose"

Detailed quote from Today's CNN article "If the singer had not died on June 25, 2009, of an overdose of the surgical anesthetic, the lack of REM sleep may have taken his life within days anyway, according Czeisler's testimony Friday."

Translating that to a human, Czeisler estimated, Jackson would have died before his 80th day of propofol infusions. Murray told police he had given it to him for 60 nights before trying to wean him off it on June 22, 2009 -- three days before his death.

From AP story "Studies showed that similar levels of sleep deprivation resulted in the deaths of laboratory animals and would likely cause the death of a human, he said."

In this quote he's stating that Michael would have died of sleep deprivation within days regardless of Propofol overdose. That's all I've been talking about and frankly which I feel like you aren't getting.

and he did not talk about FII or Microsleep and I did not claim that he did. I thought me writing "I googled" would be easy to understand. I googled to see when death from sleep deprivation would happen. I came across FII which said 7 to 18 months and microsleep.

Can you quote my posts where I said Michael died from sleep deprivation?

this was never about you personally and I don't get why you got so defensive about me having an issue with a single point Dr. Czeisler said and had to defend him.

You can continue to try to discredit every expert and witness that may seem to support a certain side. You can continue to believe that I blindly accepted the testimonies of any expert or witness you feel I may have. I cannot control those actions. However, when you are done with that, please ask yourself why you blindly believe and rationalize the testimonies and actions of AEG’s witnesses who, for the most part, do not remember anything that happened four years ago except when they feel the memory will not incriminate them.

I have no issues with difference of opinions in regards to testimony but if we are being honest I thought you blindly wanted to accept this doctors version even though you were given the example of Nurse Lee who observed Michael sleep for 3 hours on a Sunday. I don't get how could you ignore that and also ignore this doctors own statement about REM rebound and go with Michael wouldn't sleep on a Sunday? What do you have as a basis for that? Why would a man who is able to sleep for 3 hours on his own with no drugs and a man who did not have REM sleep for 6 days (according to this very expert "If you didn't get REM sleep yesterday, you'll have REM rebound tonight, you might fall directly into sleep"), would not be able to sleep at all in your theory?

Also ask yourself why you believe the doctor’s police interview when he had no records to prove anything he gave Michael and Dr. Shafer proved the amounts he gave the last night were false.

misunderstanding again. I never said I believe Murray's police interview, that's what Dr. Czeisler choose to believe that Michael was given 6 weeks of Propofol and hence completely sleep deprived. (I wrote : This doctor believes Michael was sleep deprived for 6 weeks based on Murray's police interview. ) I just asked why he didn't believe the rest of the interview or chose to omit it in which Murray said he didn't constantly gave Michael propofol - 6 days a week and 2 days of weaning him off. I concluded with saying he's either omitting parts (6 days a week & last 2 days of no Propofol) or exaggerating when saying Michael was completely sleep deprived.


edited to add: http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/06/21/60-days-without-sleep-whaaat

Alan Duke : He testified if Michael Jackson hadn't died from that overdose of propofol, he probably would have died within weeks after that because he had been getting Propofol for 60 days and otherwise humans may could go 80 days and then drop dead.

so this doctor testified humans would die in 80 days when FII says it takes 7 to 18 months. so let me repost what I said before "even in FFI after complete inability to sleep death takes 9 months. I'm surprised that he doesn't perhaps knows FFI or exaggerating with "within days" testimony."

So overall if I need to summarize : I disagree with Dr. Czeisler "Michael would have died from sleep deprivation within 20 days (80 days minus 60 days he was already given Propofol)" statement. I feel not only it omits parts of available info ( regardless of truthfulness of it: murray working 6 days, Michael being able to sleep 3 hours on his own, Murray's claims he was weaning off Michael from Propofol) and I believe this "within days" to be an exaggeration (given even in FII situation / complete inability to sleep death happens in 7 to 18 months) . This has been my one and only point in my posts. I can't make it any more clearer than this.