MJ's religious beliefs.

PCR, your post was not boring at all! It was very interesting! I am loving learning about JW, knowing how close it was/is to Michael's heart. Thanks so much for taking time to explain those things.

I understand you say JW view Jesus as God's son but not as God. Do they believe Jesus is God's only son? And do the JW believe in the Holy Spirit as divine?

When I saw TII (for my tenth time on Sunday!), I noticed it is at the very end of the movie, during Man In the Mirror, that Michael makes the sign associated with the Holy Spirit. Thank you for posting the beautiful quote from Rebbie, too.

You are welcome, Tink! I am glad I can share our beliefs this way. As for your questions:

1) Do they believe Jesus is God's only son?
According to the Bible, "at the beginning" Jehova was alone. Jesus is called the firstborn of all creation, for he was God's first creation (Colossians 1:15). He is the “only-begotten Son.” (John 3:16) This means that Jesus is the only one directly created by God. Jesus is also the only one whom God used when He created all other things. (Colossians 1:16). Jehova is the main creator, but He worked in this with his son, first, then with other spiritual creatures. That is why we are ALL sons and daughters of God, but only Jesus was created directly by God.

2) And do the JW believe in the Holy Spirit as divine?
When you say "divine", you mean "a divine person"? Sorry, I am not sure if I understand this question right. According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is Jehovah's force / power to do all things. Jehovah can give this power to the ones who ask for it, for instance, when in times of trouble. That doesn't make a "holy person", but this is what gives you the strenght to go through hard times. There are some passages of the Bible when the Holy spirit is some times personified, but it is not a "person", that is a metaphor. Just one example: people are urged to become filled with holy spirit instead of with wine. (Ephesians 5:18) They are spoken of as being filled with holy spirit in the same way they are filled with such qualities as wisdom, faith, happiness, and joy.

3) About TII / Man in the mirror...
Yes, I remember that very well, because I was quite surprised at first. So far I have seen the movie... eemmm.... six times (I'm in love with it, I admit it
thShy_001.gif
), and Mike doesn't cross himself. This would take more "signs" (in fact, it begins crossing your forehead, then your lips, then your chest, and then you touch first your forehead, your right shoulder, your left shoulder, your chest, your moth with a "kiss"... sorry, English is not my first language and this is the first time I describe this, hope I am not wrong. I was raised Catholic, that is why I know this.

Michael touches his left shoulder with the right hand, then his right shoulder and then (I am not 100% sure at the moment) but I think he takes his fingers to his mouth and then reaches both hands towards the audience.

I do not know sign language, but this kind of reminded me of Mike while singing "Will you be there?" when using sign language. I am no saying this was it, I just say it reminded me that. I found a description of this here: http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/pages-signs/t/thankyou.htm and they say that when you use both hands, it means you are very grateful. It's like blowing a kiss.

wowow.... This Michael Jackson is really SOMEONE SPECIAL... he gives us so many opportunities to talk and to learn.

Wonderful man.... wonderful man!
 
I think however that MJ's belief was based on the importance of God's message of L O V E, not on the interpretation or debate if Jesus was divine. By the way even Jesus himself did not stress the importance on who he was, but rather on what he had to say about people's behavior and stubborness which made them uncapable to love their neighbors.

The question is not does one believe in human or divine Jesus's nature, but does one believe that Jesus's MESSAGE was divine. That's most probably what MJ focused on - following the good example, not debating who was divine, who not.
 
I do not know sign language, but this kind of reminded me of Mike while singing "Will you be there?" when using sign language. I am no saying this was it, I just say it reminded me that. I found a description of this here: http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/pages-signs/t/thankyou.htm and they say that when you use both hands, it means you are very grateful. It's like blowing a kiss.

wowow.... This Michael Jackson is really SOMEONE SPECIAL... he gives us so many opportunities to talk and to learn.

Wonderful man.... wonderful man!

Bo's Self-Indulgent Essay of the Week: :) Secular Spirituality and MJ

That boy MJ just keeps surprising me. ( Bear with me, I'm in a chatty mood!) I've mentioned before I've been a low-key fan of MJ, saw/heard little about him after seeing the Victory tour, was a J5 lover. MJ and I are the same age. On the day he died I was surprised as the day wore on to find grieving slowly emerging, as I gradually realized what a (glittering golden) thread he'd been in the tapestry of my life, one I hadn't realized -- he was just always kind of there for forty, yes forty years. He was an institution. I had MUCH catching up to do... each new song I heard, each video, each live performance... All new! I'd been very engaged in schooling and career and missed almost of it. So in a few months I've had to research things many of you have known for decades, which gives it an added intensity. Learning what a wonderful man he was, as PCR mentions above, came as such a surprise... I began as someone who thought he didn't even write his music (I know, I know :doh: ), though I did love it, who thought him too childish to be interesting.

The Beatles for me were an intellectual connection beginning around puberty; I never shared the crushes of my friends, though my walls were papered with their pictures and I kept a scrapbook. At MJ's death, in reading a bit to understand this latest loss to the world of music and dance, I stumbled on his "Come Together" video. Whoa. This was no child. When I wasn't looking, Michael Jackson had become a true rocker. Arguably the sexiest rocker in history. How did this happen without my hearing about it -- I've always kept up with current and artistic events. (Thus my "Sex God" thread, analyzing this media treatment).

Well, the above was to explain my sudden and recent curiosity. That led me to do a bit of research. Through this thread, I think I've learned pretty conclusively that his was an enduring and strong religion, toward the end a nonsectarian theism with JW leaning and fondness for certain Catholic traditions. So religion understandably saturates all forums on this site. My wild guess (should I post a poll?) puts membership here at ~70% Christian, ~15% "spiritual but not religious", ~10% with secular philosophies, and less than ~5% combined Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, and others (in that order). I base that on general demographics across the countries typically represented here, tweaked a bit to account for our special interest (feel free to dispute my guesses!)

If we expanded the thread topic to be MJ's SPIRITUAL beliefs, my ~10% nonreligious comrades would then be included. Which would be nice. As a secular humanist, I do consider myself deeply spiritual. (Many in that 10% will be uncomfortable with the word "spiritual," which is fine -- they know it's sorely ambiguous. But the emotions they express make clear we're sharing the same spiritual sense, regardless of the semantics.

What I've observed is that a large part of MJ's spirituality -- his "on-the-ground spirituality," if you will, -- stems from vital secular sources... a profound sense of connection to humanity (especially his and all chidren) and to nature (especially animals and planetary health), to strive toward ever greater personal excellence, and sense of mission and purpose in this life to leave a positive impact. These are the sources of meaning that have provided firm grounding, ethical behavior, and love of life over eons for millions with a secular philosophy.

I don't believe for a second MJ had the "rhinoceros skin" he bravely claimed he had. But what he did have was the realization that to survive the nightmares, he had to actively seek out these sources of strength and draw deeply... and he did just that. "This Is It" is the ultimate testimony to his great success at that. It was a success with one fatal flaw: a lifelong nemesis that he had never found how to defeat -- insomnia. This was not the battle, as some would have it **cough... shmuley... cough **, of missing or warring internal religious values, but a battle to win that most secular and fundamental a requirement for life -- sleep.

The show was all the more stunning of an accomplishment given this private war every night to literally fight for survival. The insomnia stemmed from any or many of a long list of possible causes, but given that it remained a fairly constant thread in his life from his teen years, it would be a cynical stretch to claim it's due to religious impoverishment **cough... shmuley... cough **.

Here's where I get speculative and controversial, and once again walk into MJJC hot water. I would fervently debate Shmuley that it was not undeveloped religious values that led to MJ's death, but undeveloped secular values:

-- educating yourself in science and health.
-- knowing how in this information age to find and select the most credible info to educate yourself.
-- understanding how the scientific method is not just for scientists, and can be applied to our most mundane decisionmaking -- weighing evidence, critical thinking, risk/benefit evaluation, and probability. (I don't mean anything requiring higher math, more the general principles).
-- remembering we are, ultimately, mammals -- a pairbonding, social species. Most (not all) of us will instinctively feel discontent when these needs remain unmet.
-- knowing that as a species we are only recently separated from nature by walls and concrete, and still crave it. Thus the growing realization of "nature deprivation disorder"... did he try hard enough to hear his own call of the wild? While he abstractly loved "the planet," that's a far cry from a primeval, visceral connection with nature. It doesn't seem he ever figured out to meet this need, no doubt overwhelmed hiding from the public, and the sun due to his skin disorder. I'm not sure petting a leashed giraffe on a manicured lawn can substitute for backpacking in the wilderness...

Some predator was going to find this weak spot in such an attractive target as MJ, and so he did. So nothing I'm saying here in any diminishes Murray's apparent crime of medical negligence.

MJ's life holds powerful lessons in secular values spirituality, or secular philosophies.
 
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Thanks for answering about the Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I think I understand the JW thoughts on this better now. When I asked about divinity and the Holy Spirit I was wondering if there was a JW version of the Trinity? So JW would not traditionally make the sign of the cross over themselves like Catholics then, right?

We always made the sign of the cross with no stops in the middle, lol. It was the forehead, the heart, and then each shoulder. Then in part of the mass, Glory Be to God, you touch your forehead, lips, and heart..."may God be in my thoughts, on my lips, and in my heart..."

I love what you suggest about Michael and the sign language possibility. I took it as him making the corresponding points to Holy Spirit, then outward as if bestowing that wish on others? But also your thought about it is so beautiful. I wish we knew someone who knew sign language to ask. Maybe someone here does know someone?

About TII / Man in the mirror...
Yes, I remember that very well, because I was quite surprised at first. So far I have seen the movie... eemmm.... six times (I'm in love with it, I admit it
thShy_001.gif
), and Mike doesn't cross himself. This would take more "signs" (in fact, it begins crossing your forehead, then your lips, then your chest, and then you touch first your forehead, your right shoulder, your left shoulder, your chest, your moth with a "kiss"... sorry, English is not my first language and this is the first time I describe this, hope I am not wrong. I was raised Catholic, that is why I know this.

Michael touches his left shoulder with the right hand, then his right shoulder and then (I am not 100% sure at the moment) but I think he takes his fingers to his mouth and then reaches both hands towards the audience.

I do not know sign language, but this kind of reminded me of Mike while singing "Will you be there?" when using sign language. I am no saying this was it, I just say it reminded me that. I found a description of this here: http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/pages-signs/t/thankyou.htm and they say that when you use both hands, it means you are very grateful. It's like blowing a kiss.

wowow.... This Michael Jackson is really SOMEONE SPECIAL... he gives us so many opportunities to talk and to learn.

Wonderful man.... wonderful man!

Indeed!!! :D
 
Thanks for answering about the Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I think I understand the JW thoughts on this better now. When I asked about divinity and the Holy Spirit I was wondering if there was a JW version of the Trinity? So JW would not traditionally make the sign of the cross over themselves like Catholics then, right?

No, we don't believe in Trinity. Jehovah says he is ONE and unique and that He has his son, Jesus. We do no make the sign of the cross, nor use the cross in our worship, for Jesus was "hanged upon a stake" (wich comes for the Greek word xy′lon, found in Galatians 3:13, the one referenced here, and other passages). The Greek word generally translated “cross” is stau·ros′, which basically means “an upright pale or stake.” :)

Thanks for explaining about the sign of the cross. I went to the "catecismo" classes and we were thought this sign, but that was several years ago, so I can surely be wrong :) Age does make a difference!! ;-)

I will try to find some friends who know sing language, but I am not 100% if they will know this, since this language is not universal. There are many of these and the one for US English is certainly different from the one used in Chile.

All this brought me so beutiful memories of the Dangerous tour in my country.... what a night to remember. Even now, 16 years later, that remains as my only chance to be really next to MJ. I am glad I could take it.

Oh, how I miss Mike....
 
What I've observed is that a large part of MJ's spirituality -- his "on-the-ground spirituality," if you will, -- stems from vital secular sources... a profound sense of connection to humanity (especially his and all chidren) and to nature (especially animals and planetary health), to strive toward ever greater personal excellence, and sense of mission and purpose in this life to leave a positive impact.

-- knowing that as a species we are only recently separated from nature by walls and concrete, and still crave it. Thus the growing realization of "nature deprivation disorder"... did he try hard enough to hear his own call of the wild?

Bo, that was a good essay :) I wish he had really had the chance to hear his call of the wild. There are so much about this wonderful man we will never know. That is why I understand this particular topic can be a bit complex at moments, for this is 1000% personal for MJ and us :) But there has been a very good exchange of ideas and comments. That, again, is excellent.

Your comment about nature is so beutiful. Yes, we need to be close to it and let "it" speak to us, for it tells us so much about the love of God and his wisdom. I work a the heart of my city, so there is noise and smog and etc. every day... but then, suddenly, there is one special light of sun that makes the sky clearer and turn the clouds into pink and red balloons... how much I love that... or the mountains, or the rivers... I can understand why MJ created Neverland the way it was, but as you say... the wild... the real wild... can never be fully matched.

.... but maybe it's me being sad tonight. I know MJ went through horrible things, but I also think he had many moments of happiness too. His kids, his mother, the smile of a happy fan or the happiness of kids, that surely warmed his gentle heart. So did the wonders of nature, things he loved so much, and things he thanked God often.

Ok... enough talking... MJ is wonderful and I am sure it is never too late to find it out, Bo. The important thing is just that: opening our heart to see the man.

Love! :)
 
If anyone does have any questions about JW's then please do let me know. I was raised JW so I have first hand experience of the religion!

Do you think from being a JW yourself that Michael was a muslim or a JW?
 
i think michael still had some jw traits from being brought up as one,i too have been in and out of the religion since a child,i am now having a bible study with the jehovahs witnesses,but i don,t know if this has been mentioned ,but when michael was singing during this is it,i think it might have been black or white,it was the part where he was with his guitarist,michael had a long black coat on,and on this coat he had a cross on the back sides and sleeves,this struck out straight away to me whilst watching the movie,because after being a fan for 23yrs,i have never seen michael where anything like that,never seen him wearing a cross on a necklace or anything,so he couldn,t have been a jw.
but i do think he still held some beliefs,
 
i think michael still had some jw traits from being brought up as one,i too have been in and out of the religion since a child,i am now having a bible study with the jehovahs witnesses,but i don,t know if this has been mentioned ,but when michael was singing during this is it,i think it might have been black or white,it was the part where he was with his guitarist,michael had a long black coat on,and on this coat he had a cross on the back sides and sleeves,this struck out straight away to me whilst watching the movie,because after being a fan for 23yrs,i have never seen michael where anything like that,never seen him wearing a cross on a necklace or anything,so he couldn,t have been a jw.
but i do think he still held some beliefs,

Same here. After years and years and years watching MJ videos, pics, and so much footage, this was the first time I have ever seen him wearing somenthing with a cross. And the only one. It was a big impression to me. I am JW and yes, for sure, we will not use a cross at all. And again, MJ also celebrated Xmas and B-days, etc, etc. But there are many people who do not celebrate those and are not JW anyway, etc.

Other friend here in the threath mentioned that now most of us would like to feel some kind of "link" with MJ at a spiritual level. Religious beliefs would be that bond. I think this is also true (and not a bad thing, anyway).

To be honest, at the end of the day none of us can say a factual thing about this issue, since it is 10000% private. We can, of course, give this and that explanation, but it's only Michael's bussiness. Our relation with God is only ours, not anybody else's business. Only God knows for sure what is in MJ's heart :). We only see the outside, so most of our opinions are just... words.
 
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Same here. After years and years and years watching MJ videos, pics, and so much footage, this was the first time I have saw him wearing somenthing with a cross. It was a big impression to me. I am JW and yes, for sure, we will not use a cross at all. And again, MJ also celebrated Xmas and B-days, etc, etc. But there are many people who do not celebrate those and are not JW anyway, etc.

Other friend here in the threath that mentioned that now most of us would like to feel some kind of "link" with MJ at a spiritual level. Religious beliefs would be that bond. I think this is also true (and not a bad thing, anyway).

To be honest, at the end of the day none of us can say a factual thing about this issue, since it is 10000% private. We can, of course, give this and that explanation, but it's only Michael's bussiness. Our relation with God is only ours, not anybody else's business. Only God knows for sure what is in MJ's heart :). We only see the outside, so most of our opinions are just... words.
i agree.
 
i think michael still had some jw traits from being brought up as one,i
yeah some of that comes out in the schumley book and u only have to look at videos such as earth song some footage is a carbon copy of pictures/artwork from the watch tower and the video being based on armageddon
 
yeah some of that comes out in the schumley book and u only have to look at videos such as earth song some footage is a carbon copy of pictures/artwork from the watch tower and the video being based on armageddon

Ohh!! I've always thought the same!!
But I thought it was only my JW-oriented view hehehe
emoticon-023.gif


Yes, Earth Song is very similar to some artwork of our publications, but the most appealing thing to me is when you see Earth "going back", making paradise back on earth, not on heaven.

Ok, enough. I am just giving my personal views, I might be all wrong too hahahahaha!!
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Hey, I hadn't thought of that really. I did not really look at MJ stuff when I moved to NY. I couldn't believe how some felt since he was disass. So, between not having Tv in college and being around those who didn't talk about him, I lost track of what he was doing. But now that you mention it, the idea of the Earth "going back" to a paradise on Earth and not in heaven is so obvious. Hey you learn something new every day.
 
i think it's normal that he dat jw influences. but on another hand i've always saw him as a believer in God. plain and simple ... i think he managed to get beyond religion and all the philosophical crap of it and instead choose to get closer to God by his own means. his relation to God seems personal and unique and has nothing to do with religion.
 
Hey, I hadn't thought of that really. I did not really look at MJ stuff when I moved to NY. I couldn't believe how some felt since he was disass. So, between not having Tv in college and being around those who didn't talk about him, I lost track of what he was doing. But now that you mention it, the idea of the Earth "going back" to a paradise on Earth and not in heaven is so obvious. Hey you learn something new every day.

Sure we do!! I have learned really a lot in this forum. People are really well informed and are always sharing wonderful and so valuable information. Maybe that is why the forum turns into our favourite place so easily :D
 
Ohh!! I've always thought the same!!
But I thought it was only my JW-oriented view hehehe
emoticon-023.gif


Yes, Earth Song is very similar to some artwork of our publications, but the most appealing thing to me is when you see Earth "going back", making paradise back on earth, not on heaven.

Ok, enough. I am just giving my personal views, I might be all wrong too hahahahaha!!
559-emoticon-4685.gif

yeah ive always believed ES was about that. the artworks are the same in the watchtowers and as u say its paradise coming back to earth.its basically armageddon happening in the video
 
I like this notion you all are discussing of the end of Earth Song being the Earth reverting back to paradise. But I can't view it as Armageddon at all... we have too much other information that for Michael this was a call to action, a statement that we ourselves can restore the Earth, and are ethically responsible for doing so. My concern about an Earth Song Armageddon hypothesis is that it lets us off the hook too much. It should be about beginnings, to me, not endings. I feel he was describing his dream for a natural, rather than a supernatural, event. Michael said we were "warriors," and wanted This Is It to inspire people to fight to save the planet, especially with respect to climate change. So he wanted us to take a long-term view of nurturing our natural world.

As for his "call of the wild" -- I think he lost a great deal of his ability to explore that because of his vitiligo. I think he felt forced into the depigmentation to maintain enough of an even complexion for a stage presence because of his job. This surely was a painful sacrifice for him, that forced him to be a less-natural "creature of the night." The difficulties that entailed surely contributed to his premature death. So, so sad...
 
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I like this notion you all are discussing of the end of Earth Song being the Earth reverting back to paradise. But I can't view it as Armageddon at all... we have too much other information that for Michael this was a call to action, a statement that we ourselves can restore the Earth, and are ethically responsible for doing so. My concern about an Earth Song Armageddon hypothesis is that it lets us off the hook too much. It should be about beginnings, to me, not endings. I feel he was describing his dream for a natural, rather than a supernatural, event. Michael said we were "warriors," and wanted This Is It to inspire people to fight to save the planet, especially with respect to climate change. So he wanted us to take a long-term view of nurturing our natural world.

not sure what u mean. if u watch the video u have evil going on ppl dieing. then u have this great storm that erupts over the earth and dead ppl rise u have footage of ppl living in harmony etc evvil being destroyed. from what ive read and looked at to me it is showing armageddon as how it happens in the texts.then u have the scenes from the video of children running through fields living in paradise. those scenes are a complete copy of artwork u find in the watchtower mags. if the video was based around ppl making a change then it would show that rather than some great storm coming over the earth and destoying evil and restoring paradise on earth. even for someone like me who aint a believer in anything. what ES stands for to me is pretty obvious from the reading.artworks ive looked at
 
As for his "call of the wild" -- I think he lost a great deal of his ability to explore that because of his vitiligo. I think he felt forced into the depigmentation to maintain enough of an even complexion for a stage presence because of his job. This surely was a painful sacrifice for him, that forced him to be a less-natural "creature of the night." The difficulties that entailed surely contributed to his premature death. So, so sad...
im lost by that!
 
im lost by that!

When he underwent depigmentation to reduce the vitiligo blotchiness, it further reduced his protective melanin, making it more important he avoid the sun... so to a large extent... the wild.

Humans are by nature day creatures, not night creatures, so switching back and force depending on his job responsibilities must have added to his longstanding sleep difficulties.

I was trying to avoid specifics, not wanting to add unnecessary controversy here...
 
ok. i was just confused as to why u mention that in this thread.
 
Oh, I completely missed the cross thing. Was it big like knight type of cross of was it simply a cross? My sister told me it looked like the thick cross symbols that Knights wore.If it is then I peronally think he wore it for the style or it must have been another ED Hardy he couldn't live without lol

But I always did think that songs like Heal the World, Earth Song were all JW inspired.
 
Oh, I completely missed the cross thing. Was it big like knight type of cross of was it simply a cross? My sister told me it looked like the thick cross symbols that Knights wore.If it is then I peronally think he wore it for the style or it must have been another ED Hardy he couldn't live without lol

But I always did think that songs like Heal the World, Earth Song were all JW inspired.

Yes, you are quite right on this and it makes a lot of sense. As I mentioned, at first I was quite surprised, but then noticed it's not the "usually" seen cross (the Latin cross), but rather looks like a Knights. We mean this part of TII:

768391-dtthumb-michael-jackson-and-ori.jpg


But who knows :) hahahahaha!! Good boy MJ will always have us thinking about every single little detail about him :)
 
Yes, you are quite right on this and it makes a lot of sense. As I mentioned, at first I was quite surprised, but then noticed it's not the "usually" seen cross (the Latin cross), but rather looks like a Knights. We mean this part of TII:

768391-dtthumb-michael-jackson-and-ori.jpg


But who knows :) hahahahaha!! Good boy MJ will always have us thinking about every single little detail about him :)

I'm glad you see what I'm saying. Oh and yes, MJ left us with so many issues we could discuss for centuries,lol, and we still wouldnt be done.
 
PCR,
I started this thread because I needed to know Michael's beliefs before he died. I guess I jus hoped that he had been considering to rejoin the JW after finishing TII or so I have heard - I am a JW myself. Now, I haven't visited the thread for a long time and as I see there must have been many thoughts written here I haven't read (18 pages.....) but what is your opinion regarding MJ rejoining. Do you know anything?
By the way I was surprised by the cross too.
 
I think the most most important thing is that Michael was spiritual.


And that yes, he believed in God.


It doesn't matter if you're black or white.
And nor does it matter if you're Muslim or Christian or Hindi or Buddhist or Wiccan....



He loved God.



He believed in God.

And God is different for everyone.
 
PCR,
I started this thread because I needed to know Michael's beliefs before he died. I guess I jus hoped that he had been considering to rejoin the JW after finishing TII or so I have heard - I am a JW myself. Now, I haven't visited the thread for a long time and as I see there must have been many thoughts written here I haven't read (18 pages.....) but what is your opinion regarding MJ rejoining. Do you know anything?

My dear friend, this is something none of us can't answer. As many have mentioned here before, our relation with God is strictly personal, one to one. How could we say what was in MJ's heart about such a private issue? We simply can't tell anything for sure. We can guess... think... suggest... but we can't know for sure.

I might have a wish... which can not be considered as a fact. Whatever I would say could be considered as a lie, for I never met MJ this personal to be able to state what he really had in his heart.

Yes, I have read different information about him going back to his Kingdom Hall, you might have read his last interview to Ebony when he mentions Jehovah, and we know what Rebbie said about his hope regarding the death (in the memorial brochure)... but again... it's only MJ and God's business. We can't tell. We just see the outside... God sees our hearts. And I am grateful for that!

As you created the threath, I would really suggest you taking the time to read it. People have shared really many interesting opinions and comments.

Maybe the wisest thing to do is just respect his privacy and discuss this just as it has been done in the threath, that is, exchanging opinions and facts from good sources. And wait ;-)

Big hugs :)
 
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