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MJ's religious beliefs.

MJJ7777 said:
Yeah, I remembe that segment on the "Abram's Report" as clear as day. It was during the 2005 trial, when MJ was regularly attending local kingdom hall meetings with his children without masks.
He bumped into Stacy Brown and asked if a bible in the library room belonged to him. (Cute):wub:
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Can you share the bible story, MJJ7777? :) It sounds adorable.

he still attended meetings throughout the year, especially the yearly Christ memorial held by Jehovahs Witnesses held sometime around April(Nisan 14 on the jewish calendar).
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Can you tell us about the yearly Christ memorial? What is this like?
 
sloride said:
If anyone does have any questions about JW's then please do let me know. I was raised JW so I have first hand experience of the religion!
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Thanks, sloride! :)

I have one... do JW have sacraments, like for example the Catholics will have baptism, communion, confession, confirmation, etc. Would Michael have had any special spiritual rites of passage growing up as JW?

Thanks!
 
*~Tink~* said:
Thanks, sloride! :)

I have one... do JW have sacraments, like for example the Catholics will have baptism, communion, confession, confirmation, etc. Would Michael have had any special spiritual rites of passage growing up as JW?

Thanks!
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Once you begin studying with JWs, when you are ready, you can become an unbaptized publisher which means you can begin going door to door to talk about the bible with people. After you dedicate your life to Jehovah (God) through prayer you then signify that dedication by water baptism, (you are fully emersed in water) Katherine mentioned that Michael was the only son that got baptized.
 
*~Tink~* said:
Can you share the bible story, MJJ7777? :) It sounds adorable.



Can you tell us about the yearly Christ memorial? What is this like?
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It's a beautiful ceremony where JW's and anyone who wants to come will gather to hear a talk (cermon) about Jesus' life. His purpose for coming to earth, his preaching work, and his death. They emphasize what he had to endure the days leading up to his death, how he was spit on, mocked, beat, and nailed...to show how much love he had to have for mankind in order to suffer and ultimately give his life so that we could have everlasting life (John 3:16)
 
During the trial, Michael also went to other Christian churches.... With Tom M. and his brother, Randy, and a producer from Sony he was friends with (he talked about it in that interview-with the two son execs? after Michael died)...I think they ere different times, different churches.

I always got the impression Michael believed in Jesus as God. But that's just me. Jw's believe he was God's son....but they don't believe in the trinity right? Because as a Lutheran, I believe in the Father(God), the son(Christ), and the Holy Spirit....All one and the same. Althought I totally understand that can be blasted confusing,LOL. He *did* celebrate Christ's birthday. He said something in the Schmuley book that stood out to me as something a non-demoninational Christian would say. About celebrating Christmas and the difference between then and a Children's holiday. He said something about Christmas is celebrating "Christ's birth day" and Christ means Messiah or "annointed one" and in my experience alot of people who do not see Jesus as God or the savior, do not generally refer to Him as "Christ".

It's clear from the schmuley tapes that Michael was not a believer in things like Karma, the big bang and that he had normal doubts about things like heaven, hell, God, etc....Like we all do because we're human. But honestly? My opinion would be that after the trial-well, during and after, his faith strengthened and I get the impression he was a bit more sure about his personal beliefs in the realm of God and religon. Although I am not claiming to know them,LOL, I'm just throwing out my two cents.
 
*~Tink~* said:
Thanks, sloride! :)

I have one... do JW have sacraments, like for example the Catholics will have baptism, communion, confession, confirmation, etc. Would Michael have had any special spiritual rites of passage growing up as JW?

Thanks!
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They believe in baptism as an adult, once you are prepared to dedicate your life to Jehovah, which you do at the big conferences they have every year. This is done by an elder in a makeshift swimming pool. They usually take place in football stadiums during the summer and you travel to them. I found them dreadfully boring but I was a child though! So I have never been christened and as I haven't been a witness since I was 14 I'm obviously not baptised either. There are no things like communion or confession, just go to the meetings twice a week, go to the weekly bible study which takes place at one of the elders houses, and field service at weekends. I started going on field service when I was about 10 but only like two days a month, and I had to have a year of extra bible study to prepare me!
 
*~Tink~* said:
Can you share the bible story, MJJ7777? :) It sounds adorable.



Can you tell us about the yearly Christ memorial? What is this like?
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Well it was a short little story that I found adorable because MJ was sitting in the back library with his children and I think he recognized Stacy Brown,and because MJ was lapsed, he really isn't suppose to enage in conversations with other JW's but being MJ lol he wanted to start a convo with Stacy by asking him if a Bible he'd picken up belonged to him.I think Stacy was sort of suprised by MJ talking to him lol.
(You can probably find this segment from the Abrams Report from the MSNBC archives back in 2005, if you want to research).

And I believe MJsChitown Boo summed up the service quite well.
 
Here's a second-hand transcript of that Abrams interview someone mentioned. It definitely shows MJ was in a JW hall in 2005 during the trial. (No mention of regular attendance, though):

THE ABRAMS REPORT 9:00 PM EST (MSNBC)
April 11, 2005 Monday

D. ABRAMS: Stacy, you saw Michael Jackson this weekend? You kind of bumped into him?

BROWN: Yes, you know, I did. I saw Michael Jackson on Sunday. We were at the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses. I happen to be a Jehovah's Witness. Michael used to be a Jehovah's Witness. And he brought the kids, the three kids, Prince, Paris and Blanket, to the Kingdom Hall. We had a special program, and he attended. And the kids, I got to say, very good-looking kids and very well behaved.

D. ABRAMS: And Michael probably knew you were coming up as a witness to testify against him. And yet, you said he was still pretty nice to you, huh?

BROWN: Well, he was. You know, there was one eerie moment. Michael -- after the -- after the meeting was over, Michael approached me. He said -- he asked me, was the Bible that he had in his hand -- did it belong to me? And you know, I was stunned. I said, No, you know, it's not mine. And it turned -- you know, I don`t know. He turned around, went back in for a moment and came back out.

D. ABRAMS: Yes. That sounds like to me a rap. You know, like, when you're -- when you're trying to get someone's attention of the -- you know, like, you say, Hey, is this -- is this your Bible, or is this your whatever? And I don`t know. Anyway. All right.

Stacy Brown, good to see you. We`re looking forward to you being able to discuss this case again.

BROWN: OK
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http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/89677/1/Michael-Jackson-stuff


Now this next one is pretty terrible: I just found this... look at how Brown twists this story on the day after Michael's death. Ugh.

Things were made all the more difficult in 2005 when the prosecution in Santa Maria subpoenaed me to testify against him. The day before my testimony, I saw Michael and his children and, in his own way, Michael tried to intimidate me.

I said, "Michael, I'm not trying to hurt you. I feel bad for you, but I didn't volunteer for this." He looked at me and offered me a Bible and a faint smile.

The next morning, I walked into that packed courtroom where the prosecution and the defense peppered me with questions about a book I co-authored about Michael. Just 10 feet away, Michael, never flinching, stared at me. Tito and Jackie Jackson, my old friends, stood in the back with their arms folded and stared, too.
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http://www.scrantontimes.com/news/times-tribune_reporter_knew_the_king_of_pop
 
MJsChitownBoo said:
It's a beautiful ceremony where JW's and anyone who wants to come will gather to hear a talk (cermon) about Jesus' life. His purpose for coming to earth, his preaching work, and his death. They emphasize what he had to endure the days leading up to his death, how he was spit on, mocked, beat, and nailed...to show how much love he had to have for mankind in order to suffer and ultimately give his life so that we could have everlasting life (John 3:16)
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You're right. The memorial service is open for anyone, not just JWs. I do reccommend people attending though-its very eye opening and its great to learn about different religions. There's a table with bread and wine and after a prayer it gets passed around the congregation, representing Christ's blood and body. The only people that are allowed to eat and drink from them are people believed to be part of the 144,000. A little thing to note that a lot of people don't tend to know though is that JWs do not believe that Jesus was nailed to a cross, they believe he was nailed to a vertical stake. Just a very minor difference!
 
Bo G said:
Here's a second-hand transcript of that Abrams interview someone mentioned. It definitely shows MJ was in a JW hall in 2005 during the trial. (No mention of regular attendance, though):

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/89677/1/Michael-Jackson-stuff


Now this next one is pretty terrible: I just found this... look at how Brown twists this story on the day after Michael's death. Ugh.

http://www.scrantontimes.com/news/times-tribune_reporter_knew_the_king_of_pop
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Yay! you found it! lol, Yeah it wasn't intimidation, I think it was MJ's own way of looking into Stacy's soul/inner being for what it was e.g., (the handing of the bible to him):ph34r:. I think he felt like a hypocrite at some point.
 
MJJ7777 said:
Yay! you found it! lol, Yeah it wasn't intimidation, I think it was MJ's own way of looking into Stacy's soul/inner being for what it was e.g., (the handing of the bible to him):ph34r:. I think he felt like a hypocrite at some point.
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Totally agree. Michael was trying to connect to Stacy Brown's conscience. To interpret this as intimidation is so... what's the word... sick? Soulless?

(I'd feel better if I had the actual MSNBC transcript and not the Jehovah's Witnesses site, but couldn't find that.)
 
Bo G said:
Here's a second-hand transcript of that Abrams interview someone mentioned. It definitely shows MJ was in a JW hall in 2005 during the trial. (No mention of regular attendance, though):

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/89677/1/Michael-Jackson-stuff


Now this next one is pretty terrible: I just found this... look at how Brown twists this story on the day after Michael's death. Ugh.

http://www.scrantontimes.com/news/times-tribune_reporter_knew_the_king_of_pop
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OMG Stacy Brown is such a LIAR, what a JERK! Thanks for the info, BO G.
 
Bo G said:
Totally agree. Michael was trying to connect to Stacy Brown's conscience. To interpret this as intimidation is so... what's the word... sick? Soulless?

(I'd feel better if I had the actual MSNBC transcript and not the Jehovah's Witnesses site, but couldn't find that.)
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Not sure about that second transcript but the first transcript of the Dan Abrams interview is word for word of what I have on tape.
 
Stacey Brown irritates me soooo much. It's so interesting those stories he told....they were so different, hm? How can one brif event be so....different?
 
MJsChitownBoo said:
Not sure about that second transcript but the first transcript of the Dan Abrams interview is word for word of what I have on tape.
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I'm sorry, I missed that, can't find it in the thread... What first transcript is this?

EDIT
And as for the Abrams interview, thanks, that makes me more comfortable with the JW's transcript.
 
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MJsChitownBoo said:
I was referring to the MSNBC transcript from your post. The one you got from the JW website.
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Oh, OK. Then what is the second transcript you're referring to? Do you mean the second clip I had, which was the newspaper article? If so, what about it aren't you sure of? (If it's Brown's interpretation of MJ's motives, I agree with you.)
 
I found this...from Andrea Crouch's facebook page: "Andrae' (Crouch) has now told Clifton Davis (when he saw him at MJ's family funeral on Sept. 4) that he is "confident that Michael Jackson knew the Lord." This was reported by Clifton on TBN's "Praise The Lord" on 9/8/09, Tuesday night to the world."
So that's a lil' somethin' somethin'. LOL
 
Bo G said:
Oh, OK. Then what is the second transcript you're referring to? Do you mean the second clip I had, which was the newspaper article? If so, what about it aren't you sure of? (If it's Brown's interpretation of MJ's motives, I agree with you.)
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you said you would rather have the actual transcript/article instead of getting from the JW site. I was just letting you know that the MSNBC transcript was word for word of what I have on tape but I can't confirm teh newspaper article. BUT Brown's interpretation (or better yet like) is definitely a joke. He needed to dress it up and add a little drama to it for his book. What a jerk.
 
Brittluvsmusic said:
I found this...from Andrea Crouch's facebook page: "Andrae' (Crouch) has now told Clifton Davis (when he saw him at MJ's family funeral on Sept. 4) that he is "confident that Michael Jackson knew the Lord." This was reported by Clifton on TBN's "Praise The Lord" on 9/8/09, Tuesday night to the world."
So that's a lil' somethin' somethin'. LOL
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Yea, Andrea Crouch have had some more statements there on his facebook about Michael and what happen when they spent time the last weeks before Michae'ls death. But like always, different people believe that it takes different things to be a "real" Christian. Some would say that he was just based on the facts Mr Crouch said, some would say it takes more...
 
Dear friends,

Wowow... it took me hours to read all of your post before giving any comments. You have really done a lot of interesting comments, here, congratulations. I would like to add my bit and, with your due respect, clarify some info about JW.

WARNING: I am sorry this would be long and even boring :-( but... I just felt I need to do it.

1) I am an active JW :)

2) Someone (sorry, forgot your name :-()gave the link to http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/, and that was quoted as the JW's web. Please be careful: that is NOT an official JW website at all. If you see the site, first of all you will find ads and JW will never have those in any publications. And JW will not post comments about that kind of issue in their official site. The ONLY official site for JW is http://www.watchtower.org/ and that is the only one we refer to. We are always encouraged to use that site for there we have the info we need. All other sites are not official and we kindly suggest not using those as sources ABOUT JW, because there might be some misleading info (I just had a look at it and there was even some info that goes against our beliefs). I mention this because I was quite shocked to read how someone mentioned meeting MJ at a Kingdom Hall and the next day twisting the story in a terrible way! So I would be careful about that story and what this woman tried to imply back then about MJ.

3) MJ was not asked to leave music, nor to leave JW. He made his choice. He didn't leave JW "short after" Thriller... he did so by 1987. I read in other forum that JW in Spain had done an "official statement" about MJ's passing, with very disrespectul comments about him, by the way. That is completely false. There would be no reason to do that, and also, JW would not make a statement to mention any legal issues of a person. What for?

4) JW do not consider Jesus as God. There is only ONE God and his name is Jehovah. Jesus is his son and he came to this world to free human kind from sin and its result: death. He had a very specific purpose and he accomplished it when he died innocent (without sin). So we understand Jesus was the key to our salvation, but he was sent by his Father. We are Christians and we recognize the importance of Jesus, but Jehovah is above all this, and he is our only God. This is a very simple explanation... I don't want to bother you, but of course there are lots of references to explain this :)

5) JW (or Mrs. Jackson, in this case) "brainwashing" children's minds... That is not the case. Not at all. First, we do not become JW unless we, personally, decide to do so. NO person can be forced to do this. It takes time, studying, preparation and concrete actions (like door to door work, taking part in meetings, knowing about our main beliefs and being able to use the Bible properly), but most important of all: it depends on your own heart. There is a number of steps and we first make our dedication to Jehovah in a prayer, for this is completely personal. Not all children raised in JW families become JW... just the same way some of us were not raised JW but in time we studied and decided freely to become JW. I would kindly stress the word freely :)

6) Yes, in the Bible, the term "hell" comes from the word "Sheol", a place where the people of Israel would throw and burn rubbish, like a dump. Sheol (Hebrew), or Hades (Greek), refers to the common grave of mankind, never to a place of eternal torturing.

Jeremiah 7:31: "And they have built the high places of To´pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin´nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.’"

I don't want to bother you with a long explanation, but I just wanted to mention this to say the Bible doesn't support this concept.


I am sorry this has been so long and maybe even boring. I thought it would be fair to mentions these details. I do not mean to brainwash anybody's mind :)

I think the answer to MJ's religious beliefs is so personal... it will depend also in our personal beliefs, for maybe we would like to feel a "link" between he and us in this area too. I am sorry if this sound disrespectful, no intention on being so, just my personal opinion. Most of our comments about MJ and faith can't be nothing but speculations... facts? I truly believe his relation with Jehovah (as he also recognized and used His name) is personal, so we can quote people, give links to comments, but at the end, just MJ and God know. That is why I loved so much the post of Indra giving all those wonderful quotes from Michael himself. That was great and a pleasure to read!! Sweet MJ!!!

Me? Well... I would just explain my personal (**) hope quoting someone who really knew MJ and who has shown loyal to him and his kids all his life, usually in the shadows. This is a recent quote:

"I love you so much and I am looking forward to the time when I'll see you again on Earth (John 5:28-29). I know this is something you not only cherished but talked about with others. Then the world will be a paradise, a place free from corroption and poverty. Then the world will be a place of true peace and serenity. This is what we were all looking to, then I'll see you again. Sleep in peace, because as the bible says, you're just asleep, and I look forward to life with no end, at last (Psalms 37: 29).

Your sister Rebbie"

(from MJ's memorial brouchure, page 8)

(**) NOTE: By saying "personal" I just mean "what I believe", not what anybody else should accept or believe, since, again, this is a very personal issue.


Thank you for your time to read such a long post :)
Have a great day!!!
 
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Ohhh.. I just forget thanking MJsChitownBoo and Sloride for their comments and explanations about JW's belief. They are very well explained.

The only minor detail, Sloride, it's that we no longer have the weekly bible study at somebody's house. During the last years a number of changes in meetings have been introduced and this particular meeting was shortened to only 30 minutes and takes place the same day of the "School". The idea of this is we can have more time to study the Bible on our own, but especially with our families. But that's just a detail :)

Thanks!
 
PCR said:
Ohhh.. I just forget thanking MJsChitownBoo and Sloride for their comments and explanations about JW's belief. They are very well explained.

The only minor detail, Sloride, it's that we no longer have the weekly bible study at somebody's house. During the last years a number of changes in meetings have been introduced and this particular meeting was shortened to only 30 minutes and takes place the same day of the "School". The idea of this is we can have more time to study the Bible on our own, but especially with our families. But that's just a detail :)

Thanks!
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I left ten years ago so its a while back. I had no idea that weekly bible studies don't happen anymore, thanks for telling me!
 
MJsChitownBoo said:
Once you begin studying with JWs, when you are ready, you can become an unbaptized publisher which means you can begin going door to door to talk about the bible with people. After you dedicate your life to Jehovah (God) through prayer you then signify that dedication by water baptism, (you are fully emersed in water) Katherine mentioned that Michael was the only son that got baptized.
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MJsChitownBoo said:
It's a beautiful ceremony where JW's and anyone who wants to come will gather to hear a talk (cermon) about Jesus' life. His purpose for coming to earth, his preaching work, and his death. They emphasize what he had to endure the days leading up to his death, how he was spit on, mocked, beat, and nailed...to show how much love he had to have for mankind in order to suffer and ultimately give his life so that we could have everlasting life (John 3:16)
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Very beautiful. Thanks so much for sharing this. :) The Christ ceremony sounds beautiful. Hearing about the passion of Jesus can be so hard. But yes, it reminds us so clearly of His gift of love.
 
sloride said:
They believe in baptism as an adult, once you are prepared to dedicate your life to Jehovah, which you do at the big conferences they have every year. This is done by an elder in a makeshift swimming pool. They usually take place in football stadiums during the summer and you travel to them. I found them dreadfully boring but I was a child though! So I have never been christened and as I haven't been a witness since I was 14 I'm obviously not baptised either. There are no things like communion or confession, just go to the meetings twice a week, go to the weekly bible study which takes place at one of the elders houses, and field service at weekends. I started going on field service when I was about 10 but only like two days a month, and I had to have a year of extra bible study to prepare me!
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Thanks, sloride, it's so interesting to learn more. It's nice to know more about the tradition Michael grew up in and respected so much. :)
 
MJJ7777 said:
Well it was a short little story that I found adorable because MJ was sitting in the back library with his children and I think he recognized Stacy Brown,and because MJ was lapsed, he really isn't suppose to enage in conversations with other JW's but being MJ lol he wanted to start a convo with Stacy by asking him if a Bible he'd picken up belonged to him.I think Stacy was sort of suprised by MJ talking to him lol.
(You can probably find this segment from the Abrams Report from the MSNBC archives back in 2005, if you want to research).

And I believe MJsChitown Boo summed up the service quite well.
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It is an adorable story. I see it as Michael's gentle way of bumping someone's conscience, perhaps. It seems so Michael. :)
 
Brittluvsmusic said:
I found this...from Andrea Crouch's facebook page: "Andrae' (Crouch) has now told Clifton Davis (when he saw him at MJ's family funeral on Sept. 4) that he is "confident that Michael Jackson knew the Lord." This was reported by Clifton on TBN's "Praise The Lord" on 9/8/09, Tuesday night to the world."
So that's a lil' somethin' somethin'. LOL
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Thanks, Brittluvsmusic! :)


Indra said:
Yea, Andrea Crouch have had some more statements there on his facebook about Michael and what happen when they spent time the last weeks before Michae'ls death. But like always, different people believe that it takes different things to be a "real" Christian. Some would say that he was just based on the facts Mr Crouch said, some would say it takes more...
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Indra, do you by chance have those statements handy? Love to read those, too. :)
 
PCR said:
Dear friends,

Wowow... it took me hours to read all of your post before giving any comments. You have really done a lot of interesting comments, here, congratulations. I would like to add my bit and, with your due respect, clarify some info about JW.
Click to expand...

PCR, your post was not boring at all! It was very interesting! I am loving learning about JW, knowing how close it was/is to Michael's heart. Thanks so much for taking time to explain those things.

I understand you say JW view Jesus as God's son but not as God. Do they believe Jesus is God's only son? And do the JW believe in the Holy Spirit as divine?

When I saw TII (for my tenth time on Sunday!), I noticed it is at the very end of the movie, during Man In the Mirror, that Michael makes the sign associated with the Holy Spirit.

Thank you for posting the beautiful quote from Rebbie, too.
 
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