MJ's religious beliefs.

[Asedora]

Please, can anybody provide a picture from TII movie where he was wearing clothes with the cross image on it? It is really something interesting to discuss.

 

[ginvid]

Please, can anybody provide a picture from TII movie where he was wearing clothes with the cross image on it? It is really something interesting to discuss.

I'm sorry, I don't have a picture. But it was when he was singing Black or white. He has on a long black overcaot on top of the silver suit jacket. On the back of the coat and on the sides, there are crosses that are also black but a little lighter than the rest of the coat. I hope that helps.

 

[Indra]

Oh, I completely missed the cross thing. Was it big like knight type of cross of was it simply a cross? My sister told me it looked like the thick cross symbols that Knights wore.If it is then I peronally think he wore it for the style or it must have been another ED Hardy he couldn't live without lol

But I always did think that songs like Heal the World, Earth Song were all JW inspired.

Even if it is a knight cross, i've never seen Michael wear anything like that in all the years I've been fallowing him. And it is still a cross and a simble of a religion.
I was very suprised when I saw that just because i've never seen anything like that on him before.

People who are jewish or hindu, who believe in it and practice it usally don't wear a cross, just as a believing christina don't wear a David's star. Michael never had antyhing of any religion on him like that before, but right before his death he did....
It does show, as many have said, what a man of faith he was, it might not be the strongest statement, but considering he never (as far as I've seen) had any statement on him before, it sure is speciell.

 

[ShadowMaster]

Please, can anybody provide a picture from TII movie where he was wearing clothes with the cross image on it? It is really something interesting to discuss.

 

[man.in.the.mirror]

yeah some of that comes out in the schumley book and u only have to look at videos such as earth song some footage is a carbon copy of pictures/artwork from the watch tower and the video being based on armageddon

i totally agree elusive,i have often said that myself,especially what you said about the artwork in the watchtowers,and yes especially his videos,

 

[Asedora]

Oh, thank you very much. It is difficult to see still but I def see cross there. What kind of cross, I only can guess.... . I didn't watch TII movie cuz I do not want to pay Sony/AEG but I hope I will see it later... .

 

[elusive moonwalker]

it was kinda like a celtic cross

 

[ShadowMaster]

Oh, thank you very much. It is difficult to see still but I def see cross there. What kind of cross, I only can guess.... . I didn't watch TII movie cuz I do not want to pay Sony/AEG but I hope I will see it later... .

that's because i was unable to get a clear shot at it...he's fast but it's pretty clear in the video:cheeky:

and it;s also visible at the bottom of the coat ..on his right side .

 

[PCR]

it was kinda like a celtic cross

I looked for this on the web, I couldn't find the actual jacket, but I did find some info on that kind of cross at Wikipedia. Just some idea, here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Cross

As we mentioned before, it is not a Latin cross, but rather a Coptic cross... BUT... please, I am not saying it IS that cross, and I do not say either MJ uses in as a religious manner. I looked for more Ed Hardy stuff using crosses and there are maaaaaaaaaaaannnnyyyy of them. Does anybody know why they use this so often?

Anyway, when I saw that cross I thought of a Knight... but yes, yes, it is surprising to me.

 

[PCR]

sorry, wrong post, I deleted it.

 

[PoP]

I love crosses, I have a few of them in necklaces, my fvaourite one is one that used to be my grandmothers. Michael is very open minded to other religions, I too am open minded, I always respect every religion and I wanna learn more about like he does.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

he prob just liked the jacket so wore it. and that was it lol

 

[PCR]

he prob just liked the jacket so wore it. and that was it lol

hahahaha

I agree too.... and then we are just breaking our brains to give this any further meaning. Geeeezz....

 

[Asedora]

hahahaha

I agree too.... and then we are just breaking our brains to give this any further meaning. Geeeezz....

I think when it comes to MJ it always has a meaning. Ask yourself if you JW or you were raised in Judaism would you wear t-shirt with cross on it? I do not think so. I wouldn't buy a t-shirt with a David Star on it because it is not my religion. Would you? Just an example.

 

[MJJ7777]

he prob just liked the jacket so wore it. and that was it lol

Thats what I said. It was probably another Ed hardy to die for. And I totally agree PCR, we are having fun busting our brains anyway.:wild:

 

[MJJ7777]

I think when it comes to MJ it always has a meaning. Ask yourself if you JW or you were raised in Judaism would you wear t-shirt with cross on it? I wouldn't buy a t-shirt with a David Star for sure because it is not my religion. Would you? Just an example.

LOL, I think I did something like that before. I have a couple Jewish friends and I and a couple of non jews used to go to their Jewish Club meetings in High School with them just for the free pizza and food after class each week, some others who weren't jewish wore david star necklaces and it absolutely meant nothing to them, it was just another piece of accessory to their outfit. And I am far from Jewish. My parents are JW's and I'm studying (for a long time).

If I wore a cross, IF! I would never wear it for religion because being a JW and researching the pagan origins of the cross, even of you leave the religion, wearing a cross means nothing passionate really because there are just certain things you know. Some people wear it for style. I mean a rapper wearing a cross while doing a pimp music video means what?

the cross is simply an icon in most cases. But who knows? Why let it end there ?

 

[Indra]

LOL, I think I did something like that before. I have a couple Jewish friends and I and a couple of non jews used to go to their Jewish Club meetings in High School with them just for the free pizza and food after class each week, some others who weren't jewish wore david star necklaces and it absolutely meant nothing to them, it was just another piece of accessory to their outfit. And I am far from Jewish. My parents are JW's and I'm studying (for a long time).

If I wore a cross, IF! I would never wear it for religion because being a JW and researching the pagan origins of the cross, even of you leave the religion, wearing a cross means nothing passionate really because there are just certain things you know. Some people wear it for style. I mean a rapper wearing a cross while doing a pimp music video means what?

the cross is simply an icon in most cases. But who knows? Why let it end there ?

I would agree with you if this was something we've seen Michael do a lot in the past. I might be the only one, but I've been an fan of his for over 15 years, and I have never seen him wear anything religious like that. This is the first time. That to me means something.
Someone who always use religous things as accessoies, I agree. But when it's someone who I've never seen wear any accessoies refering to a religion then I do believe it means something when you finally do.
But that's just my opinion

 

[MJJ7777]

^Hey, that's cool. It suprised me too at first, I was like whaaa? But then I remember how I just decided to do attend jewish meetings with my friends. I had never done anything like that before. But the food was gooood. especially Baclava. I did it for the food!

Come to think of it, this shouldn't suprise me b/c MJ's done this sort of thing before. He celebrated christmas and birthdays which is just as foreign to the JW religion as the cross is...duh!! How could I forget:doh:

 

[Asedora]

I would agree with you if this was something we've seen Michael do a lot in the past. I might be the only one, but I've been an fan of his for over 15 years, and I have never seen him wear anything religious like that. This is the first time. That to me means something.
Someone who always use religous things as accessoies, I agree. But when it's someone who I've never seen wear any accessoies refering to a religion then I do believe it means something when you finally do.
But that's just my opinion

I agree with you. If it comes to a regular person, it could happen maybe. However it is never happened with me. let say Chinese and eastern religions, Buddhism some Indians believes I understand on spiritual level. This is why I wear Chinese symbol. If I didn't know anything about Chinese philosophy why would I have this symbol with me? Myself I wear cross, I wear Chinese symbol and another symbols I have in my house. I am very selective in my spiritual preferences.
I think in MJ case wearing him cross is not an accident. imo

 

[PCR]

Mmmm.... we are getting to the same point again: we can't tell for sure. This is the only time, we ever saw this. And in fact, it is only at ONE point of the footage, just for HALF the song... and I don't mean to bring anybody down, but that was on the 23 or 24... So here we are, clueless again. We can guess, we can think, we can really try to give meaning to many things, but we can't tell any thing for sure.

I mean... it could have been so many things.

1) MJ needed a jacket to pretend the style he would use while actually singing BoW and just found that jacket. He used it and that was it.

2) MJ didn't own the jacket, but he found it and used it. Then he noticed the cross. He never wanted to use it again.

3) MJ owned the jacket and used it every now and then. He didn't care about the cross.

4) MJ owned and loved the jacket since it was a silent way to show he liked crosses.

etc, etc.

We can go to infinity (I am now thinking about The Drill). But we can't tell for sure. However, let's say it again: JW will not use this. I wouldn't. But that's me. MJ is different

 

[ensleyave]

He loved god. That is what he was converted to. Everything else doesn't matter.

 

[Asedora]

Mmmm.... we are getting to the same point again: we can't tell for sure. This is the only time, we ever saw this. And in fact, it is only at ONE point of the footage, just for HALF the song... and I don't mean to bring anybody down, but that was on the 23 or 24... So here we are, clueless again. We can guess, we can think, we can really try to give meaning to many things, but we can't tell any thing for sure.

I

I understand you point but MJ was not a simple guy we have to keep it in mind. Take a look at symbols on his Dangerous album or HIStory video. He used many of them and obviously it never was a spontaneous thing.
And it is true he loved God and he didn't belong to any religion.

 

[MJJ7777]

Mmmm.... we are getting to the same point again: we can't tell for sure. This is the only time, we ever saw this. And in fact, it is only at ONE point of the footage, just for HALF the song... and I don't mean to bring anybody down, but that was on the 23 or 24... So here we are, clueless again. We can guess, we can think, we can really try to give meaning to many things, but we can't tell any thing for sure.

I mean... it could have been so many things.

1) MJ needed a jacket to pretend the style he would use while actually singing BoW and just found that jacket. He used it and that was it.

2) MJ didn't own the jacket, but he found it and used it. Then he noticed the cross. He never wanted to use it again.

3) MJ owned the jacket and used it every now and then. He didn't care about the cross.

4) MJ owned and loved the jacket since it was a silent way to show he liked crosses.

etc, etc.

We can go to infinity (I am now thinking about The Drill). But we can't tell for sure. However, let's say it again: JW will not use this. I wouldn't. But that's me. MJ is different

Ditto. We will never know.

 

[Indra]

^Hey, that's cool. It suprised me too at first, I was like whaaa? But then I remember how I just decided to do attend jewish meetings with my friends. I had never done anything like that before. But the food was gooood. especially Baclava. I did it for the food!

Come to think of it, this shouldn't suprise me b/c MJ's done this sort of thing before. He celebrated christmas and birthdays which is just as foreign to the JW religion as the cross is...duh!! How could I forget:doh:

Hmm, well the celebration of christmas and birthdays could also be a "sign" (or whatever you want to call it or whatever we want to make out of it). I really don't think it doesn't mean anything more to him. I think that for those who haven't had things like that in their life, no matter what it can be, the step to celebrate something isn't as easy at it might be for us who always had it in our lives.
And like someone else said, the Michael I know of was not someone to not thing about things like that. The fact that he never used a cross before, and now he did...
Oh well, what do we know.
He's with God =)

 

[cleopatra09]

I'm so happy to see some JW are michaels fans !

and i want so much to know what he believed in ?

only thing i want is to meet him again,
i guess without religion it becomes impossible,
but this religious are so many and had different teachings...
i'm so confused !
i only pray, God please do not be angry with me becouse i have some doubts about everything,
just let me meet michael some day, i ask only this...

i was rised as JW from my childhood,
i never belonged to any other religion,
so i totally understand to michael what is it ... and how does it feel,

i have some doubts, i'm still JW, i believe Jehovah is only God,
but i want myself to see everything, every old manuscripts,
i do not want some one to tell me this is truth and to believe
i want myself to look for and find truth.

i bilieve in god, in jehovah,
but people are so different,
why can't i just love god, just believe in him, just be good person
but not be member of any religion?

i know michael felt the same way, he was seeking the way to be with god,
but not to be the part of any religion !

 

[alexandrasmith1]

i know michael felt the same way, he was seeking the way to be with god,
but not to be the part of any religion !

But wouldn't his way of seeking God be his religion?
I think it's been enough proof that Michael had a strong faith in God, just look at This is it. The confirmed story about him spending time with Pastors Andrae and Sandra Crouch (spelling?) just weeks before his death to make his music more spiritual, that he was praying to Jesus with them. The statement from Mr. Crouch not too long ago that "he is sure Michael knew of The Lord".
Then we also have Michael's own words about his faith, what way he was going, about reading the Bible, trying to be like Jesus and so on....there are so so many evidence to me that he had a very strong faith in God.

I guess I'm the only one, but to me, if I listen to Michael and the facts that we know are true, it is very clear. =)

It's still all for L O V E!

 

[bubbyduck4MJ]

Jehovah simply means God. I'm Christian and I use Jehovah along with many other Christians I know. Doesn't depict a "religion." Michael was simply spiritual. I like the post above saying that he just simply followed what Jesus said. Sometimes we let denominations get in the way of our faith, belief in God, and ability to do simply do what's right, Michael didn't.

:wub:

Mlchael was very careful not to align with a particular religion, because his message was universal. He DID say he tried to pattern his life from Jesus' life. After his Jehovah Witness days, he never publically proclaimed Christianity. It seems clear that he wanted to unite the religions, through love. His message was one of unity.

:wub:

I'm sure everyone has read this, but I found this so cool. Most of what Beliefnet has on Michael is so disappointing- just as gossipy as anywhere. But this is nice, since it is from Michael himself.
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2000/12/My-Childhood-My-Sabbath-My-Freedom.aspx

Thank you for this I hadn't read it, it was nice.

These are the things that boggle my mind so much that they keep me from functioning, inducing high levels of anxiety. Who or what did this? How did it happen? How can something be infinite? How can something be neither finite nor infinite, but just be? What is God, or a creator, if there is one? And how did they/it/that happen? Where did I come from? What happens when I die? Why am I here? Why are any of us here? What's is life? How did I happen and what am I supposed to be doing?!
I wish I could just go about daily life, only thinking about this kind of stuff every now and then, but I get into these moods and I'm just not able to ignore it like that. I sometimes feel very very removed from this world and it's the strangest and most uncomfortable feeling I could ever imagine. I wonder how people can brush aside the fact that THIS IS ALL SO EFFIN' WEIRD!!! It scares me not having the answers to these things. I just feel so *confused*.
This isn't a daily occurance, but it happens more often than I feel I'm able to handle. I was raised in a big Irish Catholic family and I wish I could just believe what I was brought up to believe. I began questioning it at a very early age and shortly after Confirmation I started thinking the whole thing was ludicrous. No one knows the answers to this stuff, how can they believe in something they've made up themselves?! That's always been my problem with religion. It's not a theory, it's not a hypothesis, you can't even call it a guess, really - it's pure imagination. We have nothing to go by. While I think there are some nice beliefs out there and some nice stories, I can't believe it just because it's a nice, comforting thing to believe. Things would be easier if I had a set of beliefs, but you cannot choose to believe something. =/

Me too. I find things very confusing.

I don't believe a religion should be selected for children. Until they're of age, it is not a fully voluntary, informed decision on their part, based on a solid understanding of alternative belief systems. It's too important to be anything less. I consider it religion by coercion. I believe instead that children should receive solid ethical instruction, and an overview of the world's beliefs and philosophies.

Some huge percent of the world's religious beliefs can be traced to an individual's parents. If you're born in Saudi Arabia, you're Wahhabi Muslim. In Alabama, Southern Baptist. In India: Hindu or Buddhist. And so forth. Thus each region believes passionately its religion is the true faith; it's ingrained from birth.

I believe when the day comes that religion is viewed as something to be examined thoughtfully and chosen (or rejected) freely as adults, we'll finally begin to approach a more unified, rational and loving world, that has more respect for the independent minds and creativity of its children.

I think it's too big a subject to handle in this thread; I feel very strongly on this point and don't want to see things get tense here.

I agree with what you are saying.

I disagree, because I think the family and religion you're born into is part of the Great Design. I mean, maybe a person sticks with their family faith and maybe they don't. But all in all, I think either through action or reaction, the faith we are born into is part of our life skills spiritual toolbox.

But that's my view and I'm a theist. I respect you feel differently. Thanks for clarifying cuz I didn't understand what you meant.

I think this is an interesting idea though, thank you!

Wouldn't it be amusing if everyone starting doing this? In boardrooms, war-rooms...

I'll dash off a quick note to Hillary Clinton, who's trying to bring Israelis and Palestinians together right now.

"Uh, see here, Ambassador, is it OK if I just add this little "with L.O.V.E." postscript at the end of your counter-proposal? Standard boilerplate, you understand..."

LOL.

"...Look, we don’t have control over the grounds, they can shake. We don’t have control over the seas, they can have tsunamis. We don’t have control over the skies, there are storms. We’re all in God’s hands. I think that man has to take that into consideration."
Michael Jackson in his 2007 Ebony Magazine interview


"No one can quite say what the creative process is. Because I have nothing to do with it of course. It's created in space. It's God's work, not mine."
Ebony/Jet 2007 interview

I wrote "Will You Be There?" at my house, "Never Land" in California....I didn't think about it hard. Thats why its hard to take credit for the songs that I write, because I just always feel that it's done from above. I feel fortunate for being that instrument through which music flows. I'm just the source through which it comes. I can't take credit for it because it's Gods work. He's just using me as the messenger....
Ebony/Jet 2002 interview

"I will never stop helping and loving people the way Jesus said to. He said "Continue to love. Always love. Remember children. Imitate the children." Not childish, but childlike."
2003 60 Minutes TV interview with Ed Bradley

"Caring. And reading the Bible, learning about God, Jesus, love. He said, 'Bring on the children', 'Imitate the children', 'Be like the children' and 'Take care of others.' Take care of old people. And we were raised with those values. Those are very important values and my family and I we were raised with those values and they continue strong in us today."
2005 At Large with Geraldo Rivera TV Interview

"I try to be kind and generous and to give to people and to do what I think God wants me to do. Sometimes I pray and say "where do you want me to go next, God? What do you want me to do from here?" I’ve always been very spiritual in that way. It’s nothing new."
2005 At Large with Geraldo Rivera TV Interview

"In the Gospels, we read, "And the Lord God made man from the dust of the earth and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul." That breath of life to me is the music of life and it permeates every fiber of creation."
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Ebony/Jet 2002 interview
[/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"We would work on a track and then we’d meet at his house, play what we worked on, and he would say, ‘Smelly, let it talk to you.’ I’d go, ‘OK.’ He’d say, ‘If the song needs something, it’ll tell you. Let it talk to you.’ I’ve learned to do that. The key to being a wonderful writer is not to write. You just get out of the way. Leave room for God to walk in the room. And when I write something that I know is right, I get on my knees and say thank you. Thank you, Jehovah!"
Michael talking about working with Quincy Jones and how God was behind his creativity, from the Ebony magazine 2007 interview


"I gain strength from God. I believe in Jehovah, God, very much. And I gain strength from the fact that I know that I am innocent. None of these stories are true. They are totally fabricated. It's very sad and it's very, very painful. I pray a lot and that's how I deal with it. I'm a strong person. I'm a warrior, and I know what is inside of me. I'm a fighter, but it's very painful and at the end of the day, I'm still human, you know? I'm still a human being, so it does hurt very, very, very much."
Michael Jackson in his interview with the Rev. Jesse Jackson during the 2005 child molestation trial


"Know, in the end, I'll be vindicated, I pray, because I know the truth. I am an innocent person and I believe in God and love God."
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Michael Jackson speaking to Rev. Jesse Jackson during his 2005 child molestation trial on what he wants his fans to know.[/FONT]

[/FONT]

Thank you for these :wub:

I think the most most important thing is that Michael was spiritual.


And that yes, he believed in God.


It doesn't matter if you're black or white.
And nor does it matter if you're Muslim or Christian or Hindi or Buddhist or Wiccan....



He loved God.



He believed in God.

And God is different for everyone.

Amen.


--



The only other thing I have to say is I need some air! Lol!

 

[Bo G]

I have two Celtic crosses which were gifts, to honor the culture of my Celtic ancestors. This cross has pre-Christian pagan origins, but over the eons has often been adopted by Christians. So the meaning of this cross is truly specific to the wearer. To me, it does not honor pagan gods or a Christian god, but the vast and beautiful culture that spanned thousands of years and ancestors... it's very humbling. The handiwork is a beautiful, traditional metal art that honors the creativity and artistry of the ancients -- I have visited these ancient places and felt a deep naturalistic connection. No one could guess looking at this cross on my neck what it meant to me...

 

[PCR]

The only other thing I have to say is I need some air! Lol!

but jokes apart, you did a GREAT summary!!

 

[Bo G]

He loved god. That is what he was converted to. Everything else doesn't matter.

As a nontheist, I see this differently. Love of one another, caring for our earth... these matter greatly, and can unite us whether we share a belief in god or not. I'm happy Michael shared these beliefs with me -- this connectedness to humanity and the planet meant SO much to him.