I agree with the thought that he did not belong to any particular religion. However, I still think he maintained a deep for of spirituality as we have seen from numerous examples in this thread. I think this feeling of being connected to the world made him want things to be better for everyone. And I think it is something he felt could be accomplished if more put forth an effort to fight. I don't think MJ distanced himself from religions. Quite the opposite he explored many of them.
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MJ's religious beliefs.
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I agree with the thought that he did not belong to any particular religion. However, I still think he maintained a deep for of spirituality as we have seen from numerous examples in this thread. I think this feeling of being connected to the world made him want things to be better for everyone. And I think it is something he felt could be accomplished if more put forth an effort to fight. I don't think MJ distanced himself from religions. Quite the opposite he explored many of them.
No worries. You are very correct when acknowledged that people would either get your post or not. I got it. I also thought it was funny that you were trying to be so PC in what you referred to but it still caused a storm. Go figure.:cheeky:
MJJ7777
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This is what I tried to say in the first portion of my post , that in the end blew out of proportion. Someone said "God let MJ down, he didn't step in". (Paraphrasing). I tried to answer this by saying we are all granted free will and with that free will, people are free to do bad things to others. We hurt each other. We let each other down. Not God. We could all be good and no one would have to die like MJ did. But when people choose to do bad things to others, like Murray did to MJ, this is what happens. We were left to see if we could handle things on our own as a group but the Biblical verse which states " Man dominates man to his injury"...couldn't have said it any better.
But like you said ginvid, this topic would require a whole other thread.
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I think her meaning was actually very clear, and my statement represents a differing view. I did not misunderstand, and I consider the distinction important.
There are in fact some very controversial elements to what you and others here are saying, even disturbing to some, and you shouldn't be so shocked that some are going to react to it. There are deeper implications of great concern to many people. While you're certainly welcome to post, my point is only that those who wish to post at length about their religious views should not be so surprised and offended when they realize they've stepped on people's toes, and get some pushback. Those who are in the religious minority here do become frustrated, perhaps too much so, but it's often understandable.
MJJ7777
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Firstly, I did not say anything controversial. I can guarantee that you do not understand a word of what I said in that post, you or anyone else that took it the wrong way. It's ok. You don't have to. And it shouldn't be discussed any further anyway.There's no point in doing that, trust me.
I have respectfully stated my thoughts w/o attacking anyone's character. Is there an exception as to who says what here? It seems that I can't say what I wish to say but when I do, I shouldn't be suprised if I get disrespected? Ok. If that's the case I get your point. Double standards aren't uncommon anyway.
At the end of the day, we are here to discuss MJ's religious views,not anyone else's. We are veering off course a bit here.
Unfortunately, I love this thread so much and I wouldn't want to see it closed for petty little misunderstandings. That's why I will take a break from this discussion for a while. I'll miss it.
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Maybe in your world saying "I guarantee you do not understand a word of what I said" is respectful, but not in mine. Meanwhile, I have been respectful.
Just because you're unable to see controversy in your own positions does not give you the right to insist there IS none, therefore others are wrong for thinking so and must agree with you.
A bit more humility seems in order here.
PCR
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Are we, maybe... going a bit off topic?
We are not judging Michael Jackson. We are not haters. None of us. We know that.
This has been a looong threath and yes, every now and then some of our words can hurt other members, because this is such a special topic. So I will just advise what one of the moderators have said at some point before: just let's be careful not to offend other people and keep our minds open. If we for some reason, without intention, actually offend any of us, let's keep our minds open to understand others and to say sorry, if needed (and felt). At least we can try
MJJ7777 didn't mean any bad to MJ. The same way people saying "Believing in God is the foolest thing ever" (to say so) are not saying MJ is a fool to believe in God. But of course, we have to clearly explain our points to avoid confussions.
This is a good threath. I like to exchange ideas and points of view with you and I hope I am not offending anyone. But if I do, please just let me know.
Ok... this was off topic too, I think, sorry
We are not judging Michael Jackson. We are not haters. None of us. We know that.
This has been a looong threath and yes, every now and then some of our words can hurt other members, because this is such a special topic. So I will just advise what one of the moderators have said at some point before: just let's be careful not to offend other people and keep our minds open. If we for some reason, without intention, actually offend any of us, let's keep our minds open to understand others and to say sorry, if needed (and felt). At least we can try
MJJ7777 didn't mean any bad to MJ. The same way people saying "Believing in God is the foolest thing ever" (to say so) are not saying MJ is a fool to believe in God. But of course, we have to clearly explain our points to avoid confussions.
This is a good threath. I like to exchange ideas and points of view with you and I hope I am not offending anyone. But if I do, please just let me know.
Ok... this was off topic too, I think, sorry
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MrsMJ2007
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Michael was raised in the JW faith as a child, but officially became a member in 1983. He left the Witnesses in 1988 due to disagreements concerning his music career. True he studied many different faiths and drew some aspects from each. He was a very well-read man. But it is unclear as to which faith he belonged, if at all, at the end of his life. Maybe he chose to join a congregation that was non-denominational.
Am I the only one who finds this post hypocritical, ignorant and bent? I mean, come on...you voraciously claim that there is NO WAY Mike studied the Kaballah and then go on to say you have proof. What is the proof? Words from some psychic. Sorry, but I would put 100 times my faith into a religion based on ancient Egyptian beliefs before that of a modern day "contacting the dead" psychic. I mean...come on...are you Serious??:no: I am hoping I've misread your post because of your lack of knowledge regarding the English language. Please confirm.
What if 'he' (don't believe in a God that would be gender specific) isn't actually a creature, or entity in the common sense of the word, then perhaps God is a collective of all of the spirits on Earth. While I have lost my faith many times in my life and have been able at times to justify the non-existence of God, I've found that I am actually rejecting the picture of God as a big white man on a throne in the sky. That's just asinine. Why would God be as limited as one race, one sex, one class, etc.?
I know there is a God (in my own vision of what the idea/word means) because I can feel the power within my self. It's called my soul. It feels badly when I do wrong and it feels joyous when I share goodness and love. This is why I believe there is a higher power. If you break down the term, it is quite simple. I believe there is a power within myself that is on a higher level than that which I can understand in this lifetime. My spirit cannot die when my body passes for it would not exist at all if dependent on my body. If that were so, where is my spirit located? Is it made up of a few neurons in my brain? I have more difficulty believing this, a scientific concept (of which I am hypothesizing, not citing a source) than I do believe in that which I KNOW and FEEL deep inside of me.
I believe it is easier for us to picture Michael as Michael Jackson in his human form in the sky somewhere. It takes more evolved thinking to conceive of his soul, his spirit, residing everywhere on earth and in the heavens now that his body has succumb to it's humanism. This is why there was so much magic in his body and soul while on earth. The magic was that he was able to tap into this spirit and the spirits of others like Michelangelo, Prokiev, Mozart, etc. Michael had the ability to tap into the souls and spirit of the masters of ART. He took this ability and showered the world with his creation from within. Regardless of how manipulating or calculating he was in regards to showmanship, the fact is, this is how the greats work their magic. After all, it takes effort and brain power and passion and desire to spend any amount of energy creating the ART that Michael was able to share with us in his lifetime.
In regards to your specific idea of God and his existence relying on selfishness (this is just my belief and opinion):
If you see God as selfish because of the atrocities in the world, then you are forgetting to look at God and the wonderment as well. How can one ignore the magic of nature, the magic of beauty, laughter, friendship, love and art? God is well rounded and a yin/yang concept. There is no 'good' or 'bad' in my concept of God. There only IS. Existence, or living with your soul, makes up the energy, or higher power, that is God (to me).
I truly believe that as painful and horrible it is to see the hideous nature of so many people on earth, it is still necessary in order that our souls grow and move to a higher plane. We are evolving and changing and learning and growing. Without this, of what interest would there be in life? Going through the motions? If so, then I feel a person who sees life only as going through the motions is not looking inside...is not searching...not even trying to grow. This is a sad existence indeed and one that I chose not to live. If Michael is your inspiration that look to his work and growth of soul and you will see that anything is possible. Why, it's even possible to find God in your own meaning. As Michael seemed to understand very well, God was not defined by other people's definition of God, but rather, a God defined by searching in nature, inside oneself, and through the ideas of others. In this sense, Michael may have been one of the most 'evolved' human beings on our planet. A part of me believes that in the horror of his death lies a great truth. Michael's soul was exhausted. He had given so much and yet the world inflicted so much pain upon him. One's soul can only grow so much before it needs to move on. Perhaps Michael's soul was here to provide exactly that which it did provide and nothing more. Perhaps he need not have provided more as he provided exactly what he was meant to provide. Perhaps his death will provide a chance for all of our souls to grow and better understand the world and God and what those mean to us.
Perhaps, appropriate to the holiday season, the columnist who long ago answered a little girls question, "Is there a Santa Claus?" also answered the question "Is there a God." If you haven't read the letter I highly suggest doing the search "Virginia Santa Claus Yes Columnist Newspaper". It is beautifully written and so lovingly and honestly expressive in its nature. I promise you will not be wasting your time in reading the piece.
After much though and a thorough review of human nature, the many beauties of the world, and once removing the reader's vision of Santa Claus as a fat man in a red suit (the vision we all have of the fictional Santa and quite similar in nature to the vision we have been taught to see God) the columnist answered the girl in all of his honesty,
"Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus."
And to you, and to me, I want to say, Yes, there is God.
Peace and Harmony and L. O. V. E. to everyone this holiday season and every other day of your life.
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Asedora
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I spent 15 years of my life learning this subject. What I am basically saying Kabblah is NOT the same Ancient Egyptian Knowledge. I am not going to go any deeper then that into it, sorry.I do not know why did you find my opinion ignorant? . Have a nice day.
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I would like to apologize. I did not mean to infer that YOU were ignorant at all. I was in a rush as the words poured forth. I was stating that it is ignorant not to search for one's truth. You have done so and I commend you for that. I simply wanted to add my own experience and to ask you to open your mind to the possibility that you might be wrong. I might be as well, and I accept that. No one knows the truth 100%.
I myself have spent 37 years seeking the truth and these are my conclusions as of now. I am sure they will evolve and change in the years to come.
Again, I apologize if I have offended you. Please know that was not my intention.
ShadowMaster
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i always saw him way beyond religion. he was way too complex to fit into a religion of one kind or another...he just believed and loved God very much.
as for religion ..i detect many influences from more than one religion but i can see he did not belong to any of them ... as in terms of traits. i guess he had formed some kind of an opinion of his own about it. otherwise i can't see why he would say his performances were like a religoius experience. you can't say that unless you lived that.
as for religion ..i detect many influences from more than one religion but i can see he did not belong to any of them ... as in terms of traits. i guess he had formed some kind of an opinion of his own about it. otherwise i can't see why he would say his performances were like a religoius experience. you can't say that unless you lived that.
Guys guys, I get religion is obviously a big part of some of your lives, but L.O.V.E. in the forum. Discuss with respect and acceptance, and lets leave the hostility at the door, yeah?
My two cents: I think Michael was spiritual, he enjoyed celebration of birthdays and the Holidays as a thank you to God and as a celebration of his life and the lives of his children, but didn't really conform to a specific religion for the latter part of his life.
My two cents: I think Michael was spiritual, he enjoyed celebration of birthdays and the Holidays as a thank you to God and as a celebration of his life and the lives of his children, but didn't really conform to a specific religion for the latter part of his life.
Agreed. Two great examples of this are found in the songs Jam and Will You Be There. In Jam he mentions the ancient Jewish text, the Talmud, makes reference to Buddha, to God (in the Christian sense); also asking the listened to "recognize me in the temple", another Jewish, and pre-common era mystic location, such as the temples of the Greek Gods.
In Will You Be There, he asks that we "hold [him] like the River Jordan." Referred to in both the Old and New Testaments, the River Jordan holds deep and significant meanings including the act of baptism, healing powers, a path to righteousness, and has even been used to analogize the journey into the afterlife. He also sings "heal and bathe me", an obvious reference to both baptism and likely also referring to the act of washing a beggar's feet as did Jesus did in order to teach humility. He uses words with heavy religious connotation as well. The terms themselves or equivalent meanings are found in the great books from all religions and include: darkest hour, trials and tribulations, deepest confessions, joy and pain, promise of another tomorrow". These are many of the most powerful words used in religious texts due to their strongly felt emotion. They call to one's soul.
As recently as the Invincible recording session, Michael sang in the song, "So many people in agony, this shouldn't have to be. Too busy focusing on ourselves and not His Majesty." Again he refers to His Majesty which has been used to name many different religious Gods. Even the royal families of the world use the word because it associates them with the mystic and the spiritual, giving them instant power and credibility by association.
And of course, HIStory contains direct reference and reverence to God, more specific to Christianity, but not to any one sect.
Lyrics like "Though It's Plain To See/This World Is Heavenly/Be God's Glow" and "Turn their swords to plowshares" (Heal the World) and "What about all the peace/That you pledged your only son" (Earth Song) not only cause one to envision a utopia that Jackson continuously campaigned for; it also showed a commitment to the major themes of Christianity.
Michael attended synagogue and shared in Sabbath dinner with Shmukhead during their time together, and he worked with the Nation of Islam during his 1995 trial and afterward. He also had a spiritual adviser of no denomination (who was shown on shows after his death sharing a tape of his recent calls where he said he was afraid of the people around him taking control...off subject, sorry). He met with Sandra and Andre Crouch before his passing and asked to be annointed with spirituality. They spent the night holding hands and talking of Jesus.
I don't think one could find another human with the ability to make such a comprehensive look at the plethora religions of the world. It amazes me to think of the amount of heart and soul and time he put into understanding God in Michael Jackson's vision of God. My personal feeling is that he never stuck with any one vision...that was too limiting and he saw through that. He wanted to be the best; to emulate the best; to create the best; and to treat other the best. What better way than to seek the ultimate truth and to share that by LIVING it.
In his own words, Michael described his faith at various times in his life as follows:
After his disassociation with Jehovah's Witnesses, Jackson never publicly aligned himself to any religion but statements he made in interviews, the spiritual imagery in his songs and his charity work showed signs of a personal faith.
When asked about being a father, he said: "[Parenthood] reminds you to do what the Bible has always told us. When the Apostles were arguing among themselves over who was the greatest in Jesus' eyes, he said, 'None of you,' and called over a little boy and said, 'until you humble yourself like this child.' It reminds you to be kind and humble and to see things...with a childlike wonderment." ("Michael In The Mirror", USA Today, 2001)
And explaining the song writing process, Jackson said "It's very spiritual. it's as if its been written in its entirety before you were born and you're just really the source through which the songs come. It's a work of God."
And on performing live: "You're connected to a higher source and you... become one with, you know, the spirit. It's a very...much like religion. It's a God-given gift. ("Online Audio Chat with Michael Jackson", RollingStone.com, October 26, 2001)
Indra
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I agree with almost everything, but not the Nation of Islam part.
I might be wrong, but there is no evidence, that the Nation of Islam was associated with Michael for any other purpose than for security.
144000
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alexandrasmith1
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Yea, you're right. I remember this so well. When the media made up the whole lie (oh, yet another lie from the media.. supire supire) that Michael converted to Islam, and it was pretty fast proven to be false, the only way the media could keep this lie alive was by using the Nation of Islam. And of course, knowing the media, they do whatever they can to fool people with their lies, no matter how much they have to lie, like this case, making up a lie about michael converting to Islam by using the lie about Nation of Islam and their part in Michael's life.
If I'm not misstaking (which I might be) this forum had some discussions about this issue when the media first started with this lie, and it was pretty fast proven that all they did was to provide Michael with security.
Asedora
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This is only a part I agree with in your post. The rest is just mixing everything together which doesn't make sense to me. Imo, my opinion stays the same. Michael kept a distance from all religions, which is very smart and at the same time he was dealing with PEOPLE who used to belong to diff religions. It is a big difference. He was a spiritual, yes.
For me he was like a religion himself. The problem with all world regions now they all think that their knowledge is the best and most accurate.
Autumn II
Proud Member
Good post. Yes, Michael kept a distance from religions, in the sense that he did not proclaim ONE, as his. If he'd been deeply religious with one, particular, religion, I feel that he would embraced it and would have proclaimed it. He was all about unity, and healing, though. Not divisiveness. He was very wise.
Yes, he was very spiritual. We do know that he believed in God. He believed in emulating Jesus, which would be a good thing for everyone to do, in principle, Christian or not? I can very much agree with that.
There is such certainty, by so many. That's ok. If you are in a Muslim context and are Muslim, that seems "best and most accurate." Same with Christianity and context, and other religions. It's fine to be "certain," and I know it brings a lot of comfort. This is truly a multinational board. Sometimes, it seems like it isn't? I read people proclaiming things to be "true," when that is not necessarily my view. I mostly keep quiet, but I wonder, do they REALIZE how multi-national this board really is?
Michael was all about love, and that transcends religions. I really DO think he knew what he was doing, in terms of healing, not to proclaim only ONE as his. . . . . . .
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Sophielo
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Michael obviously still had JW traits. He attended meetings with his children during the trial and his essay from 2001 shows that he still shares some of the JW beliefs. When Earth Song came out I was still a witness and the congregation were convinced that Michael in the video was talking about Armageddon, with the resurection and the earth turning into a beautiful paradise which is a JW belief. They mentioned it in every meeting I swear! I would have loved to have had a conversation with him about this, I could have talked to him for ages about it.
But whatever happened we all know that Michael was a very spiritual person. He transcended the borders and barriers of religion. When it comes to Michael throughout every religion people are united in their love for Michael. He's united more people than any politician has done.
Autumn II
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Yes, he did. . . . .
mykyl66
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I guess one clue is to look at the memorial booklet.
Everyone mentioned in their statements what they themselves believed.
However Rebbie stated what both her AND Michael talked about on a regular basis. I guess you cant get a more personal thought than that as to his thoughts.
Cheers
Mike R
Everyone mentioned in their statements what they themselves believed.
However Rebbie stated what both her AND Michael talked about on a regular basis. I guess you cant get a more personal thought than that as to his thoughts.
Cheers
Mike R
Justthefacts
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Read his last interview with ebony magazine he makes it sound like he still was a JW. ESP when he was asked about Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton
PCR
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This is a good idea. We had mentioned and even quoted this before, but so far, I think none has said this: Rebbie talks both about her and his brother's hopes.
"I love you so much and I'm looking forward to the time when I'll see you again on Earth (John 5:28-29). I know this is somenthing you not only cherished but talked about with others."
Every time I read this words, they really bring a warm and sweet feeling of hope to my heart too. I have read many comments here and there, but I feel Rebbie can be trusted.
Here is the pic of that page (7) of the booklet.
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alexandrasmith1
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Let me just make it clear, there is NOTHING wrong with being a Muslim, it is just as much a religion of peace as all the other religions and if that was Michael's religion then good for him.
BUT, I really don't get why people are still saying "do you think he was a Muslim" "maybe he was a Muslim" and so on.
With that I mean, I think by now everyone know that that rumor was 100% false, that the whole story was made up by a tabloid in the UK and then spread everywhere like the truth, like so many other rumors about him. So the fact that it is false should not make it more likely that he was a Muslim, or increase the chances of it.
When a man is accused of something and then proven to be innocent, it's not "maybe he did it" "who knows", it's just "NO, he didn't do it". Now I'm not saying this is a crime or anything, the opposite, great if he was a Muslim, but it's the same thing. There is no "maybe he is a Muslim" it's just "NO, the story was false, he was not".
This is something I feel is needed for all rumors about him.
There is no "well he was accused of molesting, maybe he is a molester" "well they say he wanted to be white, so now there is a bigger chance of that". When we know a story is false, they just drop it. No, finoto, nothing!!
Sophielo
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I know. I never said there was. Every religion should be respected. I was brought up as a JW, I'm not anymore as I left when I was 14. Obviously I know more about the JW religion than islam which is why I commented on possible JW traits. But you're right, the is Michael a muslim rumour was completely made up by The Sun, like everything else they print about Michael.
alexandrasmith1
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Sorry, I didn't mean that comment to you, I ment it as a general saying before I started to write how wierd it is that people still thing "He might be muslim". So that no one would take that as me being negative against Islam. Nothing at all against you =)