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MJ's religious beliefs.

I couldnt care less about his beliefs, he was a believer, I know that he believed in God very much, yet this God let him down and allowed Murray to take his life and die. His belief, his strong faith in who ever he believed in didnt help at all. IMO
 
twinklEE said:
I couldnt care less about his beliefs, he was a believer, I know that he believed in God very much, yet this God let him down and allowed Murray to take his life and die. His belief, his strong faith in who ever he believed in didnt help at all. IMO
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yep. i agree... god let him down.
 
How did God let him down? People die all the time. Jesus died and he was God's son. And died very cruelly at that. Death is the effect of sin, not a personal vedetta God has against every particular persons. And time and unforseen occurrences befall us all. A belief in God does not guarantee a trouble free life. In fact Jesus himself said it would be quite the opposite and expect trouble. So when you have so much against you and you then exacerbate this by making bad decisions, what can we expect.

We can just be happy that he did have a spirituality and that at least at times brought him comfort for all he had to deal with. If I make it to the new system and he does as well, I will surely ask him what the heck happened?

Besides, Shadowmaster, don't be lonely.
 
ginvid said:
How did God let him down? People die all the time. Jesus died and he was God's son. And died very cruelly at that. Death is the effect of sin, not a personal vedetta God has against particular persons. And time and unforseen occurrences befall us all. A belief in God does not guarantee a trouble free life. In fact Jesus himself said it would be quite the opposite and expect trouble. So when you have so much against you and then exacerbate this by making bad decisions, what can we expect.

We can just be happy that he did have a spirituality and that at least at times brought him comfort for all he had to deal with. If I make it to the new system and he does as well, I will surely ask him what the heck happened?

Besides, Shadowmaster, don't be lonely.
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god let him down in many ways.
being lonely is my nature and i can't do anything to stop being this way. it's who i am. it kills me but that's the way it is for me.
 
Well, Sorry. What makes you feel lonely? Just curious. How does it come for you? What does it feel like for you? I have a reason for asking.

I also think with God he acts in ways that benefit our everlasting lives, not what we have temporarily in this system. But sometimes it is difficult to look past what we have to go through here, when it is so extensive, to look at what is possible for the future. We want instant gratification. But with so much we experience today, we at least want lifetime gratification. You think God let MJ down. Sometimes, I get mad at MJ and think of how much he let God down.

Some of the things he does, I really wonder about. But in the end, no one knows how MJ felt about somethings except God. Mj was at sometimes so conflicted that I wonder if he even really knew what he felt about things. Your emotions can wreak so much havoc in your lives.

It is possible that while his core beliefs about life remained the same, he was constantly evolving and de-evolving.
 
ginvid said:
How did God let him down? People die all the time. Jesus died and he was God's son. And died very cruelly at that. Death is the effect of sin, not a personal vedetta God has against every particular persons. And time and unforseen occurrences befall us all. A belief in God does not guarantee a trouble free life. In fact Jesus himself said it would be quite the opposite and expect trouble. So when you have so much against you and you then exacerbate this by making bad decisions, what can we expect.

We can just be happy that he did have a spirituality and that at least at times brought him comfort for all he had to deal with. If I make it to the new system and he does as well, I will surely ask him what the heck happened?
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I totally agree, it couldn't be said in a better, clearer way. Jesus was perfect and good and just see what he had to go through... but also, see what he achieved in the end.

Yes, MJ was killed, but we must remember that during his life he also had many reasons to be happy. He was blessed in many ways and he always said how grateful he was to God. He did things many of us can only dream of ever doing. He did, of course, went through much suffering and we wish he wouldn't have to go through that, but... honestly, who is problem free or pain free in this life? This system is imperfect, cruel and corrupted, but even here we can find support in other people, in small things, and in God.

Whatever MJ believed, we can all agree he did trust God and he clearly had hope of a better place/system/world to come. God doesn't promise a paradise at present, but He does offer strenght and love to endure our current pains. It's up to us to decide if we want to take that offer or not. We are free to decide. Of course we also have to do our best to make of this a better place now, right now. We can't just sit and say "Naa, whatever, don't worry, God will fix it". We must give our best now. That's what God also wants from us.

So he left this world with that hope. For a future. Just remember what Rebbie wrote to MJ in the brouchure of the memorial about MJ's hope to see "life without end at last". So... can we say God let him down? I honestly think we can't say so, since we haven't seen that promise fulfilled yet. I want and I need to trust and believe this promise. I do. Otherwise, the pain would be unbearable. I have my very bad days, when I feel all hope is lost... but then, I realize I am wrong. I must keep on believing.

This brought to my mind the lyrics of that beutiful song of MJ and Freddy Mercury, "There must be more to life than this" (here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_e8t5B2H1c)

[...]

There must be more to life than living
A better way for us to survive
Why should it be just a case of black or white
There must be more to life than this

[...]

There must be more to life than killing
There must be more than meets the eye
What good is life, if in the end we all must die
There must be more to life than this

[...]
I live in hope for a world filled with love
Then we can all just live in peace



Beutiful lyrics.... this is my hope too :)
 
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Bo G said:
I have two Celtic crosses which were gifts, to honor the culture of my Celtic ancestors. This cross has pre-Christian pagan origins, but over the eons has often been adopted by Christians. So the meaning of this cross is truly specific to the wearer. To me, it does not honor pagan gods or a Christian god, but the vast and beautiful culture that spanned thousands of years and ancestors... it's very humbling. The handiwork is a beautiful, traditional metal art that honors the creativity and artistry of the ancients -- I have visited these ancient places and felt a deep naturalistic connection. No one could guess looking at this cross on my neck what it meant to me...
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Thanks for the information and the differentiation between the two crosses. I always knew there was a bit of a difference. Plus, I got a little mini history lesson!:cheeky:

Bo G said:
As a nontheist, I see this differently. Love of one another, caring for our earth... these matter greatly, and can unite us whether we share a belief in god or not. I'm happy Michael shared these beliefs with me -- this connectedness to humanity and the planet meant SO much to him.
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I think she meant that everything else dealing with religion didn't matter, not like everything else in the world.
 
ShadowMaster said:
yep. i agree... god let him down.
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There's a verse in the Bible that says "Man dominates man to his injury..." (In reference to what Murray's done.)
God gave each and everyone one of use Free will, both evil people and good people. How you use that free will is what usually creates tragedies like this.

We put ourselves in harm's way sometimes, even when we don't know it.

I personally feel that if MJ had done certain things the way that he knew was right , some bad things that happened in his life, wouldn't have. There was a heart wrenchingly difficult choice that he made long ago and from then on things started to fall apart. Thats all I'm going to say on this.
 
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MJJ7777 said:
I personally feel that if MJ had done certain things the way that he knew was right , some bad things that happened in his life, wouldn't have. There was a heart wrenchingly difficult choice that he made and from then on things started to fall apart, and that was simply the expected consequence. Thats all I'm going to say.
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You hit the nail on the head IMO
 
MJJ7777 said:
I personally feel that if MJ had done certain things the way that he knew was right , some bad things that happened in his life, wouldn't have. There was a heart wrenchingly difficult choice that he made long ago and from then on things started to fall apart, and that was simply the expected consequence. Thats all I'm going to say on this.
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I am none to judge anyone, but I got your point. I know what you mean. We can only trust God. He knows what's in our hearts and once dead, all our mistakes are forgiven. Yes... I know what you mean. There is much for us to learn in this too.
 
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I'm not comfortable with this notion that victims of suffering must necessarily be blamed for doing something wrong or not being right with God. Did the woman and daughter backpackers who were raped, placed in the trunk of a car, which was then set on fire, not trust in God enough? If everything happens for a reason, perhaps someone needs to explain that to their family.
 
As a non believe God does not exist, and if he does he's the most selfish creature ever. How can anyone worship someone like God
So much is going on in this world, so many ppl die innocently, get killed, die of malnutrition, so many kids even babies and yet this holy all mighty god sits around and does absolutely nothing, though he is the one who could prevent things. if thats god i dont need a effing god like that. im better off on my damn own.
Also I hate it when ppl say "it was gods will" what was gods will? to kill innocent ppl, to let assholes start wars, to let humans murder and rape one another? why does he not prevent it?
 
twinklEE said:
As a non believe God does not exist, and if he does he's the most selfish creature ever. How can anyone worship someone like God
So much is going on in this world, so many ppl die innocently, get killed, die of malnutrition, so many kids even babies and yet this holy all mighty god sits around and does absolutely nothing, though he is the one who could prevent things. if thats god i dont need a effing god like that. im better off on my damn own.
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It's up to us to care for one another and the planet. WE must prevent as much suffering as possible. There's so much we can do -- we're not powerless. We're all in this together, and must find ways to love one another and care for our home, our earth... This is the real world, the one that matters, so we MUST take good care of it, for ourselves and future generations.
 
why worship god if he doesnt do shyte for mankind? there is stuff we as humans simply can not control, give me a reasonable explanation why thousands of kids die of malnutrition in Africa, Asia and South America though we do donate money? Give me a reasonable explanation for why babies are born with the strangest diseases and yet there is no cure? Why does he let this happen? Why do innocent women get raped and ppl killed and murdererd in general? Why terrorist attacks happen?
 
I personally feel that if MJ had done certain things the way that he knew was right , some bad things that happened in his life, wouldn't have. There was a heart wrenchingly difficult choice that he made and from then on things started to fall apart, and that was simply the expected consequence. Thats all I'm going to say.
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thats a horrible and self rightouse thing to say and basically attacking mj which is pathetic. u better hope nothing happens to you or your family/friends cause what excuse will u give then. tell my why evil ppl seem to live to old age yet crap happens to good ppl.relious fundimentalists are frankly scary in this day an age

im an atheist but if god exisits then ill go with the JW view and god has no control over what happens day to day. what does it say in the bible about unforseen circumstances. basically shit happens in life and thats it. because if there was some all powerful being out there that had the power to change things. then that all powerful being must be one pretty sike person to stand by and do nothing while ppl suffer.yet they have the power to change things. kinda ruins the story of the good samaritan dont u think

why worship god if he doesnt do shyte for mankind?
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exactly. it makes no difference to society and the world if it excists or not because nothing changes.things go on.we would just have alot less crazies about starting wars.if it were anounced tomorrow that god didnt excist nothing would change in the world. human beings are basically desperate. they like the idea that something else is on control and that things happen for a reason. they dont like the idea that theres no ryme nor reason for things that happen in their life and the world.it makes them feel better that theres something else out there. makes them feel more secure no matter how illogical or crazy it sounds. i saw a info paper today about the festival of eid which celebrates when god asked abraham to sacriface his son to show how much he loved god. think of that logically. sounds like some david currish cult. what sicko would tell u to kill your own child to show love and lovalty to someone else. crazy
 
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Asedora said:
I think when it comes to MJ it always has a meaning. Ask yourself if you JW or you were raised in Judaism would you wear t-shirt with cross on it? I do not think so. I wouldn't buy a t-shirt with a David Star on it because it is not my religion. Would you? Just an example.
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it was just a stage custome.he wore a fencing outfit but wasnt a fencer lol u get my drift hes worn arab outfits he wasnt an arab
 
twinklEE said:
why worship god if he doesnt do shyte for mankind? there is stuff we as humans simply can not control, give me a reasonable explanation why thousands of kids die of malnutrition in Africa, Asia and South America though we do donate money? Give me a reasonable explanation for why babies are born with the strangest diseases and yet there is no cure? Why does he let this happen?
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You're right... there IS no acceptable "reason" these things happen. And I share your anger at claims that there is. But I've moved on, because I've learned there is so much we CAN control. In recent years we've been able to reduce a HUGE amount of suffering through science, improved communications, and funding, like sanitation, clean water, reducing disease, reducing oppression against women and people of color, hurricane and flood forecasting, family planning, improved agriculture... Be very glad you don't live in the Middle Ages!
 
Bo G said:
I'm not comfortable with this notion that victims of suffering must necessarily be blamed for doing something wrong or not being right with God. Did the woman and daughter backpackers who were raped, placed in the trunk of a car, which was then set on fire, not trust in God enough? If everything happens for a reason, perhaps someone needs to explain that to their family.
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exactly for someone to even make such comments is illogical and crazy. so what about a little kids that dies in a car crash or by any other means. heres one for you my mother comes from a large family of 13. 12 of the were female. 6 of them all died of cancer at young ages.and one of their daughters died in her 20's from it aswell. they died because they have the braca one gene for breast and overian cancer. a totaly fluck because of who their parents were and that the gene got passed down. to you fundimentalists. do you want to be so self rightouse and tell me what they did in their life that was so wrong for god to bestore this disease on them.lets ignore the medical facts of this of course! does god like self rightous ignorants? just a general question of course!
 
elusive moonwalker said:
it was just a stage custome.he wore a fencing outfit but wasnt a fencer lol u get my drift hes worn arab outfits he wasnt an arab
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But that's not really the same thing, at least I don't think so.
Arab cloths is wearn by in a surtan part of the world, by all faiths in that part of the world.

Oh well, I guess we see this in a different way.
 
yeah im kinda grasping looking for things that are kinda the same
 
elusive moonwalker said:
thats a horrible and self rightouse thing to say and basically attacking mj which is pathetic. u better hope nothing happens to you or your family/friends cause what excuse will u give then. tell my why evil ppl seem to live to old age yet crap happens to good ppl.relious fundimentalists are frankly scary in this day an age

im an atheist but if god exisits then ill go with the JW view and god has no control over what happens day to day. what does it say in the bible about unforseen circumstances. basically shit happens in life and thats it. because if there was some all powerful being out there that had the power to change things. then that all powerful being must be one pretty sike person to stand by and do nothing while ppl suffer.yet they have the power to change things. kinda ruins the story of the good samaritan dont u think

exactly. it makes no difference to society and the world if it excists or not because nothing changes.things go on.we would just have alot less crazies about starting wars.if it were anounced tomorrow that god didnt excist nothing would change in the world. human beings are basically desperate. they like the idea that something else is on control and that things happen for a reason. they dont like the idea that theres no ryme nor reason for things that happen in their life and the world.it makes them feel better that theres something else out there. makes them feel more secure no matter how illogical or crazy it sounds. i saw a info paper today about the festival of eid which celebrates when god asked abraham to sacriface his son to show how much he loved god. think of that logically. sounds like some david currish cult. what sicko would tell u to kill your own child to show love and lovalty to someone else. crazy
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Oh My! I'm sorry. This was a personal opinion of mine. It has far much more meaning than you interpreted it as, but I will not discuss it any further as it isn't any of my business anyway. I know what I said and I know I didn't attack MJ, it's something if you get it you get, if you don't , then you don't. That's it.

*I agree with your stance that unforseen occurences happen, but to ridicule other's belief in the Bible and God is just really mean. Isaac was not sacrificed,it was a test and a preview of what God was to do with his own son. God ,like Abraham, sacrificied his only begotten Son Jesus Christ, for the sake of those of who might appreciate it and those who might not. IMHO, That was an act of Love. Im done.
 
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if MJ had done certain things the way that he knew was right , some bad things that happened in his life, wouldn't have.
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what certain things?. go on do tell. seeing as u feel like u can judge mj for what has happened. how about judging murray because of his love of money made him throw his medical oath out of the window.shit happened to mj because he wanted to do the right thing. helping out gavin and others. he shouldnt have done the right thing and told them all to feck off but no he wanted to help cause thats what the religious scripts taught him. well sadley this aint no eutopia. mjs prob was he did the rights things because he thought they were right and wasnt bothered about the consequences.and thats was cause him shit through the last 15 years
 
I'll take the middle ground here -- MJ deserved none of the crap that fell upon him. I do agree that he could have prevented much of it with wiser actions... but being unwise is not a crime nor a sin, and does not not require punishment. MJ deserved none of it, as by all accounts he was a deeply ethical man. So... I don't think a religious angle should enter into this one way or another.
 
MJ deserved none of the crap that fell upon him. I do agree that he could have prevented much of it with wiser actions... but being unwise is not a crime nor a sin, and does not not require punishment. MJ deserved none of it, as by all accounts he was a deeply ethical man. So... I don't think a religious angle should enter into this one way or another.
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yeah i agree. of course is choices could have been better but he was niave he saw good in ppl he wanted to help. what a terrible crime. but for some to imply what happened to him did because it was some sort of punishment is disgusting and if u didnt mean that well u certainly implied it.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
what certain things?. go on do tell. seeing as u feel like u can judge mj for what has happened. how about judging murray because of his love of money made him throw his medical oath out of the window.shit happened to mj because he wanted to do the right thing. helping out gavin and others. he shouldnt have done the right thing and told them all to feck off but no he wanted to help cause thats what the religious scripts taught him. well sadley this aint no eutopia. mjs prob was he did the rights things because he thought they were right and wasnt bothered about the consequences.and thats was cause him shit through the last 15 years
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I'm not juding anyone OMG Stop! Maybe I should have reworded my comment if this is what it sounds like to you. I am not judging anyone here. MJ is a good man. Never once did I insinuate he wasn't, I wouldn't be here if I thought otherwise. All I will say is that he's made some
choices in life of which I will not elaborate upon.

Bo G said:
I'll take the middle ground here -- MJ deserved none of the crap that fell upon him. I do agree that he could have prevented much of it with wiser actions... but being unwise is not a crime nor a sin, and does not not require punishment. MJ deserved none of it, as by all accounts he was a deeply ethical man. So... I don't think a religious angle should enter into this one way or another.
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MJ didn't deserve this but there are life choices that just mess you up in the end. We all make mistakes.
 
It's interesting to see an MJ board becoming a springboard for some very deep philosophical debates -- twinklEE and Elusive are tackling the profound problem called the "problem of evil."
 
elusive moonwalker said:
yeah i agree. of course is choices could have been better but he was niave he saw good in ppl he wanted to help. what a terrible crime. but for some to imply what happened to him did because it was some sort of punishment is disgusting and if u didnt mean that well u certainly implied it.
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She was not in any sense saying what happened to him was a punishment. She was simply saying that we all face consequences for the actions we take. And, In her opinion he took actions that could only have disasterous results. Also, no one ever commented and said all things happen for a reason (And I mean just the last few posts). no one deserves to suffer, esp someone who we can all agree (at least from all who were around him, was such a nice person). You are trying to take what MJ777 said and fit it into what your exp with religion has been and she is on a whole nother level. The reason why she did not explain in detail is because it would take so much to do it. I'm at work so excuse the choppy posts to come. I will type as I can.
 
I just wish to make my point once again more clear. MJ didn’t belong to ANY religion.
He left JW long time ago and it once again shows that he didn’t belong to this religion and any other religions because he kept a distance from all of them. For me MJ is like a religion himself.
Myself I do not believe in old testament (Torah) and I think the God’s name there has to belong only to Judaism historically and it has nothing to do with any other religion like Christianity etc..
 
ginvid said:
She was not in any sense saying what happened to him was a punishment. She was simply saying that we all face consequences for the actions we take. And, In her opinion he took actions that could only have disasterous results. Also, no one ever commented and said all things happen for a reason (And I mean just the last few posts). no one deserves to suffer, esp someone who we can all agree (at least from all who were around him, was such a nice person). You are trying to take what MJ777 said and fit it into what your exp with religion has been and she is on a whole nother level. The reason why she did not explain in detail is because it would take so much to do it. I'm at work so excuse the choppy posts to come. I will type as I can.
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Thank you for understanding ginvid.
 
twinklEE said:
As a non believe God does not exist, and if he does he's the most selfish creature ever. How can anyone worship someone like God
So much is going on in this world, so many ppl die innocently, get killed, die of malnutrition, so many kids even babies and yet this holy all mighty god sits around and does absolutely nothing, though he is the one who could prevent things. if thats god i dont need a effing god like that. im better off on my damn own.
Also I hate it when ppl say "it was gods will" what was gods will? to kill innocent ppl, to let assholes start wars, to let humans murder and rape one another? why does he not prevent it?
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God is not selfish. And to explain to you why he does not step in as you would like, would take another board.
Although I believe in God, I too hate it when people say it is God's will. I think that is a cop out and a way for people to explain what they can't. A way to reconcile to themselves when something terrible has happened. I don't know. That doesn't work for me.
But I think the principal issue here is not what our own personal gripes with God are, but how MJ's views and beliefs in God helped shape who he was.

I also agree as BoG says, that we can accomplish much by just being aware of the world and what is going on. We can accomplish much, yes in this world by maintaining an ethical manner of living. But, ultimately it will take something more powerful than any of us to bring about a lasting change in this world.

I think MJ recognized that power while feeling that power is somthing to work with. Not sitting by apathetically while things happened aroung you and not working against.
 
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