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MJ's religious beliefs.

Pace said:
Apparently, MJ wasn't the first to grab something of his when the music compelled him to do it. Hindu Deities make no exception.
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:hysterical: Well, since you went there, I know it's kinda OT, but I figured this thread needs a moment to lighten up... so here's the statue of St. Michael on the Dumfries church Midsteeple building :lol: :lol: :lol:

sna2722_682_995153a.jpg

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/w...and-he-looks-like-king-of-pop-86908-22073361/
 
^ The fact that it's of St Michael is just too much! :hysterical: :lmao:
 
About the Islam Story that the Sun made up in nov 2008. That one has been proven false a long time ago.

"Lastly - many have been in touch with me over the past year to inquire about my personal relationship with Michael Jackson. A November 21, 2008 Sun (UK) article spread internationally stating that Michael had adopted the religion of Islam through friendship with both myself and my colleague Idris Phillips during recording sessions in Los Angeles. For the record: Though our professional circles did cross-over slightly with various common professional acquaintances - I never had the honour or pleasure of meeting Micheal Jackson personally, nor did we ever correspond on matters of our professions, personal lives or faiths."
(http://wharnsby.com/blog1/2009/06/26/the-passing-of-michael-jackson/)

"Contrary to persistent press rumours, I was not at any kind of conversion ceremony for Michael Jackson. Nor, I believe, was Dawud Wharnsby or any of the others mentioned in connection with the story. Granted, I was in Los Angeles at the time these rumours first appeared – but I was busy filming a video for a new song, Boots & Sand. I have met Jermaine Jackson, Michael’s older brother, who became a Muslim some years ago. As for Michael himself, I hope that he finds inner peace and can return to making the kind of music that has inspired generations." - Yusuf Islam
(http://www.yusufislam.com/faq/did-yusuf-help-jackson-become/)


In November 2008, Jackson's New York lawyer, Londell McMillan rejected a British press report that Jackson has become a Muslim. "That's rubbish. It's completely untrue," McMillan told reporters.
In summary, two of the [alleged] guests at this conversion ceremony have stated on their own websites that the 'Michael Jackson conversion story' is false. Jackson's lawyer also denied the conversion.

"...since before his death and quite amplified now after, I have been inundated with e-mails and calls from people, organisations and the media asking me to clarify whether a song called "Give Thanks to Allah" was sung by Micheal Jackson or myself. This rumour started a while ago and has been circulating on the internet ever since. So, to clarify, Micheal Jackson never sang this song. I wrote and recorded "Give Thanks to Allah" as a simple childrens song many years ago and it has been released on various independant albums since.
Sincerely,
Zain Bhikha"
About the fact that there are so many videos out there saying it's Michael singing song about Islam (I'm sure he would have because he loved all religions and faiths but as far as we know he never did)
(http://www.myspace.com/zainbhikha/blog/498118718)

There are also a lot of other songs out there who are sang by Irfan Makki. That guys voice is so much like Michael's, it's almost scary =) But yea, it's not MJ, it's Irfan Makki.

Jermaine who has been used as someone who have said michael converted said this
in an interview with Dubai-based pan-Arab news channel Al-Arabiya in January 2010, Michael's brother Jermaine Jackson confirmed that Jackson had not converted to Islam: "I believe that Islam would have helped him a lot. Had he converted, he would have been spared all the problems he had been subjected to throughout his life"

Just leting you know who are not sure or has wondered about this story.

At the end of the day, Michael loved muslims, jews, christians, hindus and so on and so on. He really did respect all religions and wanted everyone to believe whatever they wanted to. But like I said before, this does not mean that he didn't have a faith and if we listen to him and people he knew, it is very clear that his faith was very close to the JW one that he had as a child and seems like he had his whole life.
 
If you start off with asking what MJ's religious beliefs were, you automatically begin division and arguments.

But if you ask what Michael's view of God was, you should get a different response. His view of God has been expressed several times, but not as expressive as in Dancing The Dream which is pretty much about God:

It's strange that God doesn't mind expressing Himself/Herself in all the religions of the world, while people still cling to the notion that their way is the only right way. Whatever you try to say about God, someone will take offense, even if you say everyone's love of God is right for them.
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Jehovah's Witnesses believe only their way is the right way - complete contrast to what Michael put in 'God'. You see this clearly from the watchtower.org:

Do the Witnesses believe that their religion is the only right one?
Anyone who is serious about his religion should think that it is the right one. Otherwise, why would he or she be involved in it? Christians are admonished: "Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) A person should make sure that his beliefs can be supported by the Scriptures, for there is only one true faith. Ephesians 4:5 confirms this, mentioning "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." Jesus did not agree with the modern, relaxed view that there are many roads, many religions, all leading to salvation. Instead, he said: "Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they have found it. Otherwise, they would look for another religion.—Matthew 7:14.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/jt/article_08.htm#only

They view Judaism, for example, ashaving turned away from the Word Of God and that they (the JWs)are the ones correctly (their view) following God's Will. The JW faith judges other religions as shown here: All nations have religions of some kind, whether so-called Christian or non-Christian. It is vitally important for people to hold beliefs that conform to God's own Word, and the efforts of the Witnesses to assist them in doing this constitute a showing of neighbor love.

Again, only the JWs have the right way.


For me the form God takes is not the most important thing. What's most important is the essence. My songs and dances are outlines for Him to come in and fill. I hold out the form. She puts in the sweetness.

I've looked up at the night sky and beheld the stars so intimately close, it was as if my grandmother had made them for me. "How rich, how sumptuous," I thought. In that moment I saw God in His creation. I could as easily have seen Her in the beauty of a rainbow, the grace of a deer bounding through a meadow, the truth of a father's kiss. But for me the sweetest contact with God has no form. I close my eyes, look within, and enter a deep soft silence. The infinity of God's creation embraces me. We are one.
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Michael's view of God is one of essence - not one dictated by organised religion interpreting scriptures. Much of Dancing The Dream was inspired by the Bhagavad Gita which talks a lot about consciousness, the field, knower/known and Michael took some lines from it as well as from Tagore to develop his view of God. In the JW faith, they look to scriptures as the basis - for instance, the JWs would not consider God to be male/female as Michael wrote in 'GOD'. They consider God to be male as dictated by the scriptural use of 'He', etc - Judaism is the same. The Bhagavad Gita, if I'm not mistaken, refers to the Creator in all forms at once - not one and this includes the concept of gender.

Michael took what was universal - not especially original. The Samurai, Saigo Takamori realised that there were universal values across the world which would help people to have common ground. Others have thought the same for centuries.

With such words above written by Michael, one cannot claim his faith was "very close to the JW one". 'God' alone is at odds with the JWs. He never believed God could or should be limited by what you call him/her, so saying 'Jehovah' doesn't necessarily mean he was closer to the JW faith. He was open - not closed. He didn't believe one religion had the only truth as JWs do.

Michael has used lines that come from the King James Bible - strikingly simnilar, e.g. in Heal The World. JWs use the New World Translation Bible - no others as far as I recall. JW elders certainly wouldn't encourage JWs to read books like the Bhagavad Gita - they considered Thriller as worshipping the Devil. Ghosts? They'd have had a fit with that one too - occult magic and all that.

False prophets cry of doom! - reference to JWs? During the late '80s to early '90s, Michael was open to ideas of God, especially through Deepak Chopra. The JW faith has made several prophecies that can only be considered as false. Here's several google links: http://www.google.co.uk/search?sour...381GB381&q=jehovah's+witness+false+prophecies

Forget religion - Michael was more into God. Organised religion is not the sole way.
 
Alma said:
Some do want others to be what God wants them to be. Period.
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I'm telling you when someone says "I know what God wants for you" sounds like religious control over others (many churches say that)....

But which God, may I ask? You may mean well, because obviously every religious person thinks the god he/she believes in is the one and only true god. But you know when Christians say Michael should have done what Christians do, Muslims say Michael should have done what Muslims do, Scientologists say Michael should have done what Scientologists do etc. etc. - they all mean well. They are all convinced their belief is the one and only right belief system and all others are wrong. So when they say things like you do: that "oh, I just want him to be what God wants him to be" - who are you to state what "God" wants (and if he exists at all)? In reality you talk about YOUR own belief system and that you want someone to behave according to what YOU believe in. That YOU believe in it doesn't make it the truth though.
 
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Alma said:
This is an exact clue as to what I'm talking about when bringing up the correctness in belief.
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And how can you be sure it's you who are correct in your belief? What if it's Muslims who are right? Then you won't go to Heaven even if you lived all your life as a devout Christian.... You can never be sure if your belief is the correct one.

Of course, you are convinced that your belief system is the right one and the Christian faith is the truth. Muslims are just as convinced about their faith, Buddhists about theirs, Hindus about theirs and so on. What seems true for you, may not seem true for others.
 
Pace said:
You're a Christian.
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Right... So

Pace said:
Sainthood is much more of a 'grassroots' effort- people remember those they consider Saints, they start painting icons, they kiss these icons in reverence and they start praying to those they consider saints. I'm sure you've seen something like that.
That is kind of normal in the Russian Orthodox Church. A lot of that happens before an official canonization by the Church- which is also just the statement that said Saint was also a Saint, not made a Saint by the canonization.
That is how many Saints in that Church 'started out'. What seems unthinkable to Protestants could be rather normal in another branch of Christianity.
You can easily have different Saints by the same name. There is Saint Irene (Irina) of Greece, Saint Irina the Martyr (from the area now knows as the Balkans), and Saint Irina/Irene of Egypt.

If someone considers Michael Jackson a Saint, well, in the Russian Orthodoxy it would be well within the realm of 'allowable' to start praying to someone they perceive as Saint.
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.. So I would be very very aware of the above. Not sure what you are trying to say, though, teaching me of my own religion? Besides, there is more to Orthodoxy than the Russian Orthodoxes. ..

But if I thought Michael was a saint (even though his heart was that of a saint, I believe this, but am considering his mistakes, or sins, and every human has them), would I be here wondering where he is now?..
 
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Autumn II said:
Time to close the thread now, I guess inevitably. Are Muslims a "cult?" Are Jews a "cult?" How about Buddhists? (Michael would never have said such a thing, of course. He was all about LOVE, and tolerance!)
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Please, you are overreacting and reaching wrong conclusions again... ): My beliefs have got Nothing to do with tolerance and love. I tolerate and I love. As I've said before, I have got quite a few friends who are Best friends to me, but are Atheists and Agnostics, or astrology-driven, and one of them is even not heterosexual. I love them very much. So, please, don't try to undermine my feelings or character and compare me to others. I am my own person, thankfully, and wouldn't precisely need to imitate other human being. I love too and am not irrational.

Autumn II said:
Christians are not the only religion that believes in GOD! Why would you think that other people do not have the same RIGHT to their faith, that you do?
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You're again putting words in my head I never expressed either. Please, don't raise the tone, because those capitals do prove it. ..


Autumn II said:
Time to close the thread now, I guess inevitably.
Click to expand...

Autumn II said:
As usual, time for this thread to go, as this same topic has done, many times.
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Autumn II said:
Moving right along.
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Which is it, though? You keep repeating this, then say sth else, yet you continue to reply to posts. Let some be. I already said I feel guilty for replying on here and all the forum, because of my having to overexplain myself all the time, because, again, some posters here don't really understand what I'm trying to say. And some really don't.

I'll conclude that I care about Michael enough to wanna wonder and pray for him that he is in God's presence and that he has been saved. It is something that is dear and precious and important to be concerned about. And am thirsting for the absolute enough to be concluding and worrying like this at times, to be saying everything I've said on here. ...

Peace out.

*exits*
 
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mjbunny said:
:hysterical: Well, since you went there, I know it's kinda OT, but I figured this thread needs a moment to lighten up... so here's the statue of St. Michael on the Dumfries church Midsteeple building :lol: :lol: :lol:

sna2722_682_995153a.jpg

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/w...and-he-looks-like-king-of-pop-86908-22073361/
Click to expand...

Now THAT is hilarious!

And Alma, I know you have concern if Michael "was saved," but truly, a soul as beautiful as his would have the best outcome, regardless of what religion he was. (That's certainly what I believe.) And if not, there is a PROBLEM. I can't imagine he was ever at risk, having been such a GOOD person. Also, maybe you can take comfort in the fact that all the religions have the concept of an after-life? They all do. . . .

I agree, that if the thread had been about Michael's "concepts of God," it could have provided more fascinating discussions? We KNOW that Michael believed in God, totally, and talked about that quite often. Dancing the Dream was MOSTLY about God.
 
Pompous Git;3240170 said:
If you start off with asking what MJ's religious beliefs were, you automatically begin division and arguments.

But if you ask what Michael's view of God was, you should get a different response. His view of God has been expressed several times, but not as expressive as in Dancing The Dream which is pretty much about God:



Jehovah's Witnesses believe only their way is the right way - complete contrast to what Michael put in 'God'. You see this clearly from the watchtower.org:

Do the Witnesses believe that their religion is the only right one?
Anyone who is serious about his religion should think that it is the right one. Otherwise, why would he or she be involved in it? Christians are admonished: "Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) A person should make sure that his beliefs can be supported by the Scriptures, for there is only one true faith. Ephesians 4:5 confirms this, mentioning "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." Jesus did not agree with the modern, relaxed view that there are many roads, many religions, all leading to salvation. Instead, he said: "Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they have found it. Otherwise, they would look for another religion.—Matthew 7:14.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/jt/article_08.htm#only

They view Judaism, for example, ashaving turned away from the Word Of God and that they (the JWs)are the ones correctly (their view) following God's Will. The JW faith judges other religions as shown here: All nations have religions of some kind, whether so-called Christian or non-Christian. It is vitally important for people to hold beliefs that conform to God's own Word, and the efforts of the Witnesses to assist them in doing this constitute a showing of neighbor love.

Again, only the JWs have the right way.




Michael's view of God is one of essence - not one dictated by organised religion interpreting scriptures. Much of Dancing The Dream was inspired by the Bhagavad Gita which talks a lot about consciousness, the field, knower/known and Michael took some lines from it as well as from Tagore to develop his view of God. In the JW faith, they look to scriptures as the basis - for instance, the JWs would not consider God to be male/female as Michael wrote in 'GOD'. They consider God to be male as dictated by the scriptural use of 'He', etc - Judaism is the same. The Bhagavad Gita, if I'm not mistaken, refers to the Creator in all forms at once - not one and this includes the concept of gender.

Michael took what was universal - not especially original. The Samurai, Saigo Takamori realised that there were universal values across the world which would help people to have common ground. Others have thought the same for centuries.

With such words above written by Michael, one cannot claim his faith was "very close to the JW one". 'God' alone is at odds with the JWs. He never believed God could or should be limited by what you call him/her, so saying 'Jehovah' doesn't necessarily mean he was closer to the JW faith. He was open - not closed. He didn't believe one religion had the only truth as JWs do.

Michael has used lines that come from the King James Bible - strikingly simnilar, e.g. in Heal The World. JWs use the New World Translation Bible - no others as far as I recall. JW elders certainly wouldn't encourage JWs to read books like the Bhagavad Gita - they considered Thriller as worshipping the Devil. Ghosts? They'd have had a fit with that one too - occult magic and all that.

False prophets cry of doom! - reference to JWs? During the late '80s to early '90s, Michael was open to ideas of God, especially through Deepak Chopra. The JW faith has made several prophecies that can only be considered as false. Here's several google links: http://www.google.co.uk/search?sour...381GB381&q=jehovah's+witness+false+prophecies

Forget religion - Michael was more into God. Organised religion is not the sole way.
Click to expand...

You obviously have been very misinformed as to JW's and I would recommend that if you do not know then do not come in a thread spouting lies to back up what you are trying to say. This comes up so often when I am trying to deal with people who think they know. But it is something I have had to correct my whole life.

Firstly, you should believe what you are worshipping to be correct, or else why worship in that way?

Secondly, God is a spirit, he does not have a sex. The words taken from the Hebrew and Greek scriptures use male and female designations for certain things. It is not the job of the BiBle translator to take it upon themselves to take out these designations. It is the job of the theologian to make sure their adherents are are able to understand what was translated through other Bible texts.

Also, though we use the New World Translation pricipally, we actually use many different Bibles. In the homes of many JW's you will find multiple Bible translations. So someone using the KJV does not put them at odds with teachings.

And it is up to you as the individual to become more aware of what is out there. You have to make firm for yourself what you believe. An elder would not encourage a person to read this or that, but they will not discourage it either. If you want to read another religious text such as the Koran or whatever, who can stop you?

In terms of false prophecies that you claim they make, again you are trying to make ti to be something it is not. Have JW's said things and done things that were later to be found wrong? 100%, yes. When I read some of the older literature I am like, "OK???" But you have to realize that as the scriptures say, the light gets brighter. JW's are not a religion based on tradition that has been handed down from generation to generation. So you are not going to get a religion that says one thing and refuses to change even when it is obvious it is not correct. It is an evolving religion and it is progressive. And as things become brighter they adjust. People are so use to religion being stoic and fixed that they are not able to understand this. So it is of no surprise to me that someone will take what they said in an article to an article from the 1800's or from even 10 years ago as something we believe, we as a religion we have LONG since stopped believing in it.

Theer is so much I can explain. I don't wnat to make this trhead about what witnesses believe. but I just needed to clear some of that up. It really upsets me to see people spreading falsehoods from thrird and fourth party people who misinterpret what they see and then say it is fact. I know it is from an abundance of misinformation.

Sorry about that, I just had to say that.

As to this thread, it had been here for a very long time with people putting in quotes from MJ and things he did to show how he felt about religion in general since it is impossible to know how he felt specifically. It was more about his insights on religion as opposed to a relgious doctrine in general. this thread had been here for well over a year following this path. Because it has such good info here that can be discussed, I woukld not like to close this thread, but please, can every stay on that leaning?

Thank you.
 
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At the moment the more appropriate thread title would be: "What religious beliefs YOU think Michael Jackson should have had?"

And Alma, you can't pick- and chose while accusing others of picking and choosing 'their' God.
If you get bent out of shape for people praying to Saint Michael Jackson, than you may find that inappropriate, but the idea and the principle are not unheard of in that part of Christianity.
And I mentioned 'Russian Orthodoxy' because that would be the one I had the most exposure to. (gotta find some poppy seed in time...I do appreciate certain rituals and blessings for what they are)


I have no idea how people can watch a work like 'Ghosts' and maintain the idea that Michael Jackson was somehow still very close to the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses?

Unless the Witnesses practice displays of physical mediumship, ectoplasm, telekinesis and display a slew of siddhis?
Stan Winston is on camera talking about how they wanted to display 'ectoplasm'.

If the Witnesses took issue with 'Thriller'- how would they receive 'Ghosts'? (that's an honest question!)
a pretty literal display of the Spiritualist's movement in the late 1800s and display of Hindu beliefs?
Are Jehovah's Witnesses comfortable (from a theological and doctrinal standpoint) with such displays and ideas?

(d?ra-dar?anam: Seeing things far away

mana?-javah: Moving the body wherever thought goes (teleportation)

k?ma-r?pam: Assuming any form desired

para-k?ya prave?anam: Entering the bodies of others

sva-chanda m?tyuh: Dying when one desires

^^^all of the above displayed by Michael in 'Ghosts')
 
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Pace said:
(d?ra-dar?anam: Seeing things far away

mana?-javah: Moving the body wherever thought goes (teleportation)

k?ma-r?pam: Assuming any form desired

para-k?ya prave?anam: Entering the bodies of others

sva-chanda m?tyuh: Dying when one desires

^^^all of the above displayed by Michael in 'Ghosts')
Click to expand...

Thanks, for the discussion of Ghosts! All religions have mystical aspects. For further info, here are some links. Fascinating!
--------------------------------------------

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http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/sufism/78292

Jewish mysticism (Kabbalah)

http://www.jewfaq.org/kabbalah.htm

Muslim mysticism (Sufi)

http://muslim-canada.org/Islamic_Mysticism.html

Christian mysticism

http://frimmin.com/faith/mysticismintro.php

Buddhist mysticism

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/sufism/78293
 
Autumn II said:
Thanks, for the discussion of Ghosts! All religions have mystical aspects. For further info, here are some links. Fascinating!
--------------------------------------------

@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }a:link, span.MsoHyperlink { color: blue; text-decoration: underline; }a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { color: purple; text-decoration: underline; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; } Hindu mysticism

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/sufism/78292

Jewish mysticism (Kabbalah)

http://www.jewfaq.org/kabbalah.htm

Muslim mysticism (Sufi)

http://muslim-canada.org/Islamic_Mysticism.html

Christian mysticism

http://frimmin.com/faith/mysticismintro.php

Buddhist mysticism

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/sufism/78293
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Oh yes! He's quite the mystic! All over the place, too! Makes me appreciate 'Ghosts' so much, that is such a wonderful and beautiful display of his interests.

Dude just rocks, I swear. Who else can sing about sex and the mysteries at the same time?? (and make it sound good?)

One Thing In Life
You Must Understand
The Truth Of Lust
Woman To Man
So Open The Door
And You Will See
There Are No Secrets
Make Your Move
Set Me Free

^^^That's a seeker alright. Probably a tantrist too, considering the golden outfits. :cheeky:
 
Ah, yes. The "golden outfits." (But that is subject matter for "another" thread? LOL)

He was clearly a "seeker," and I know he had an extensive library.
 
Autumn II said:
Ah, yes. The "golden outfits." (But that is subject matter for "another" thread? LOL)

He was clearly a "seeker," and I know he had an extensive library.
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:D:punk: Yes, the golden outfits, I don't mean that in any manhood thread style, though.

The color gold though plays quite a part in certain visualizations and it was not accidental that both the Dangerous and the HIStory tour outfits were designed in that color. :agree:
 
Pace said:
:D:punk: Yes, the golden outfits, I don't mean that in any manhood thread style, though.

The color gold though plays quite a part in certain visualizations and it was not accidental that both the Dangerous and the HIStory tour outfits were designed in that color. :agree:
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Also, let's not forget that in Remember the Time, he was a magician! AND
"golden."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BEPgeNessg
 
Autumn II;3240673 said:
Also, let's not forget that in Remember the Time, he was a magician! AND
"golden."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BEPgeNessg
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Oh yes, gotta love his divine messengers, the snakes! :D

He took the notion of 'magic' even a step further- up to the level of 'miracle'.
"And I believe in miracles and a miracle has happened tonight."

I think this one has been cited very often. (ever wonder why he's dancing the 'dream'? Probably not just talking about the 'American Dream', but dreams just being another description of consciousness, what some call the 4th dimension, other side, or the Astral. I'm remembering the letter he wrote to the follower fans speaking of 'higher consciousness always".

MJ 'Dancing The Dream' said:
Consciousness expresses itself through creation. This world we live in is the dance of the creator. Dancers come and go in the twinkling of an eye but the dance lives on. On many an
occasion when I'm dancing, I've felt touched by something sacred. In those moments, I've felt
my spirit soar and become one with everything that exists. I become the stars and the moon. I
become the lover and the beloved. I become the victor and the vanquished. I become the
master and the slave. I become the singer and the song. I become the knower and the known.
I keep on dancing and then, it is the eternal dance of creation. The creator and creation merge into one wholeness of joy. I keep on dancing and dancing.......and dancing, until there is only......the dance"
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That a very eternal debate on Motion/The Great Breath/Space and Matter. ['CREATION']

Compare 'Dancing the Dream' to this.

H.P.B. said:
"The appearance and disappearance of the Universe are pictured as an outbreathing and inbreathing of “the Great Breath,” which is eternal, and which, being Motion, is one of the three aspects of the Absolute ['GOD'] — Abstract Space and Duration being the other two. When the “Great Breath” is projected, it is called the Divine Breath, and is regarded as the breathing of the Unknowable Deity — the One Existence — which breathes out a thought, as it were, which becomes the Kosmos. (See “Isis Unveiled.”)

So also is it when the Divine Breath is inspired again the Universe disappears into the bosom of “the Great Mother,” who then sleeps “wrapped in her invisible robes.”
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^^^His library must have been quite vast in that regard.
 
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Pace said:
I have no idea how people can watch a work like 'Ghosts' and maintain the idea that Michael Jackson was somehow still very close to the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses?

Unless the Witnesses practice displays of physical mediumship, ectoplasm, telekinesis and display a slew of siddhis?
Stan Winston is on camera talking about how they wanted to display 'ectoplasm'.

If the Witnesses took issue with 'Thriller'- how would they receive 'Ghosts'? (that's an honest question!)
a pretty literal display of the Spiritualist's movement in the late 1800s and display of Hindu beliefs?
Are Jehovah's Witnesses comfortable (from a theological and doctrinal standpoint) with such displays and ideas?

(d?ra-dar?anam: Seeing things far away

mana?-javah: Moving the body wherever thought goes (teleportation)

k?ma-r?pam: Assuming any form desired

para-k?ya prave?anam: Entering the bodies of others

sva-chanda m?tyuh: Dying when one desires

^^^all of the above displayed by Michael in 'Ghosts')
Click to expand...


Just wanna add seeing your post, that, I don't think anyone here said Jackson was still a Jehovah Witness, esp since that formally ended in '87, but some teahings he did keep, like not really celebrating his own birthday, calling God Jehovah at times, plus some other things I can't remember now that he said in the 2007 Ebony interview.

And 'Ghosts' or 'Thriller' doesn't mean Jackson believed in the occult, both were a means of artistic expression, I'd call it 'vengeful/exorcistic art'. In 'Thriller', he seems to be objectifying/showing his own fears in a material form. This goes back as far as his childhood, when he'd say his father would come up his window and scare him with the monster mask he had on. Doesn't make him a gruesome person - he made a scary video, doesn't mean he was possessed by a demon, like I've seen some radical lines of some other people on YouTube. I too like some horror films, I'm curious about them, doesn't make me a believer. Not claiming anyone claimed he believed in the occult, but am just saying that it's possible to be interested in many different things without it having to alter one's pure/godly beliefs. I'd say they wouldn't be really accepted by the church, no matter which, but... That's not who he was, meaning a monster, he just make-believed to make a statement.

And 'Ghosts', it really looks like a modern or re-created version of Frankestein, the monster who was the product of his creator. An unfortunate, flawed victim of his wild, unlimited imagination. In Michael's case: the media, for they painted him as the weirdo and scary monster he very well played (as the actor) in 'Ghosts'. He gave material form to the evil he's seen as in the perception of many. The evil personage They created. In 'Is It Scary", he says ' See, the evil one is you', as a conclusion. 'But if you come to see, the truth, the purity, is here inside a lonely heart', he adds, basically refuting he's who they think he is. But he puts on a special show for them: 'I'm gonna be exactly what you wanna see/It's You who's haunting me [...]". He's challenging them, he's giving them what they want: pure sensationalism, if only for this video. They made him, almost forced him, as he'd say, to be different from others. In the film, he says, 'Guess I'm gonna have to scare you'. He takes it out on them for daring to 'shake/scare my family'. In real life, he's say he'd rather suffer than take it out on others. .. He even destroys his face in 'Ghosts', bashes it to the ground, as a personification/hiperbolization of the heinous wish of some to see him fail, self-destruct, perish at once. And he wants to show that he's the magician here in this video, that he's in control of what is presented, although, in real life, he's often turning the other cheek, and doesn't sit in the darkness to scare the others, in his art, he's free. It's not real, though, he isn't the same in real life, he didn't believe in revenge. But through art, he could, say, do it to the haters, the media that for decades painted him as a heartless beast or alien. As a 'freak', like the mayor (him again) calls him. He's displayed a grotesque character, a distorted being meant to shock, that can be seen through the biased eyes of the media/the prejudiced, i.e. the parents of the children who accused him of horrible things. He 'hits' one of those symbollically in the video, a mother that slaps her son. He was an artist, too. Doesn't mean he had the ability in real life to do the things he does in his videos, those being done via special effects.

Wanted to say all that for some reason. .. That this doesn't define what he was religiously.
 
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Alma said:
Just wanna add seeing your post, that, I don't think anyone here said Jackson was still a Jehovah Witness, esp since that formally ended in '87, ...
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Well, at least Indra mentioned it and others as well, mentioning the idea to be 'comforting.'

And 'Ghosts' or 'Thriller' doesn't mean Jackson believed in the occult, both were a means of artistic expression, I'd call it 'vengeful/exorcistic art'. In 'Thriller', he seems to be objectifying/showing his own fears in a material form. This goes back as far as his childhood, when he'd say his father would come up his window and scare him with the monster mask he had on. Doesn't make him a gruesome person - he made a scary video, doesn't mean he was possessed by a demon, like I've seen some radical lines of some other people on YouTube. I too like some horror films, I'm curious about them, doesn't make me a believer. Not claiming anyone claimed he believed in the occult, but am just saying that it's possible to be interested in many different things without it having to alter one's pure/godly beliefs. I'd say they wouldn't be really accepted by the church, no matter which, but... That's not who he was, meaning a monster, he just make-believed to make a statement.

And 'Ghosts', it really looks like a modern or re-created version of Frankestein, the monster who was the product of his creator. In Michael's case: the media, for they painted him as the weirdo and scary monster he very well played (as the actor) in 'Ghosts'. He gave material form to the evil he's seen in the perception of many. In 'Is It Scary", he says ' See, the evil one is you', as a conclusion. 'But if you come to see, the truth, the purity, is here inside a lonely heart', he adds. And they made him, almost forced him, as he'd say, to be different from others. In the film, he says, 'Guess I'm gonna have to scare you'. He challenges them. He even destroys his face, bashes it to the ground, as a way reflecting the heinous wish of some to see him fail, self-destruct, perish. And he wants to show that he's the magician here in this video, that, although, in real life, he's often turning the other cheek, and doesn't sit in the darkness to scare the others, in his art, he's free. It's not real, though, he isn't the same in real life, he didn't believe in revenge. But through art, he could, say, do it to the haters, the media that for decades painted him as a heartless beast or alien. He was an artist, too. Doesn't mean he had the ability in real life to do the things he does in his videos, those being done via special effects.

Wanted to say all that for some reason. .. That this doesn't define what he was religiously.
Click to expand...

I agree that this was a movie. I didn't say he actually commands fire with his glowing eyes- he probably would have turned on the fireplace like the rest of us, although it certainly would have been quite the sight to see siddhis in action, the way we can actually hear the result of his channeling music.
'Display' just mean it the very idea of these siddhis were 'displayed', shown.

In no way, shape or form do I think along the lines of youtube video that call him 'possessed' by some demon. :doh:

He did describe his music coming 'from above' and I guess I can only rely second hand on Kenny Ortega that he referred to 'channeling' his music- which would be a case of 'inspirational mediumship' (also called 'mental mediumship) as opposed to the physical mediumship of ectoplasm and the like that 'Ghosts' was made up of.

I guess one could discuss 'religious' beliefs (that he pretty much refused to nail down in any one particular religion), but it's safe to say that regardless he seemed to have a had a pronounced hunger for spiritual knowledge and most certainly a great metaphysical interest as well.
 
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I'd like to return to something Ginvid said, because I think it's important (in general, in terms of the thread topic). She said Jehovah's Witnesses are "evolving." Some religions/faiths continue to grow and change, and some are more static. Things believed in one era, can drop away and/or can be refined.

There is diversity among world religions (and also the mystical aspects of each), and also quite a bit of diversity within Christianity, itself. Some Christians take the Bible as literal (i.e. those things happened exactly as written), and some Christians read the Bible as metaphorical. I think it's a GOOD thing for religions and denominations (and cultures) to "evolve," as new insights are gained.

My own religion, Unitarian Universalism, is an example of religious evolution, although more drastic than most. It's actually a combination of two ways of looking at Christianity. Unitarians believe in a "UNITY," and not a Trinity. God is God, and no one was/is "God on Earth." Universalism has to do with the concept of UNIVERSAL salvation. Which means, that a loving God would condemn no one to "hell." But, once that concept was accepted, UUs changed from their Christian origins, to being inclusive of all people. Once Jesus is no longer seen as "savior," with some people saved and some not, then Jesus became more of a teacher, and role-model for compassionate behavior.

With this variety in Christian churches, there is also variety in how one views "the occult," (which can be seen as a very negative term, by some.) Some churches see "the occult" as harmless and interesting, and others take a more strict approach (i.e. don't let their kids celebrate Halloween. . but that's yet another story.)

As far as Michael and "Ghosts" are concerned? (and Remember the Time, and others), we can't know what his stance was on that, but I'm not so sure life and art can be so easily separated. I'm an artist, and things that happen in my life, things that I see and think about, most assuredly find their ways into my art (writing, and visual art). Clearly Michael had a lot of esoteric knowledge, or he wouldn't have come up with those ideas?
 
Pace said:
At the moment the more appropriate thread title would be: "What religious beliefs YOU think Michael Jackson should have had?"

And Alma, you can't pick- and chose while accusing others of picking and choosing 'their' God.
If you get bent out of shape for people praying to Saint Michael Jackson, than you may find that inappropriate, but the idea and the principle are not unheard of in that part of Christianity.
And I mentioned 'Russian Orthodoxy' because that would be the one I had the most exposure to. (gotta find some poppy seed in time...I do appreciate certain rituals and blessings for what they are)


I have no idea how people can watch a work like 'Ghosts' and maintain the idea that Michael Jackson was somehow still very close to the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses?

Unless the Witnesses practice displays of physical mediumship, ectoplasm, telekinesis and display a slew of siddhis?
Stan Winston is on camera talking about how they wanted to display 'ectoplasm'.

If the Witnesses took issue with 'Thriller'- how would they receive 'Ghosts'? (that's an honest question!)
a pretty literal display of the Spiritualist's movement in the late 1800s and display of Hindu beliefs?
Are Jehovah's Witnesses comfortable (from a theological and doctrinal standpoint) with such displays and ideas?

(d?ra-dar?anam: Seeing things far away

mana?-javah: Moving the body wherever thought goes (teleportation)

k?ma-r?pam: Assuming any form desired

para-k?ya prave?anam: Entering the bodies of others

sva-chanda m?tyuh: Dying when one desires

^^^all of the above displayed by Michael in 'Ghosts')
Click to expand...

i thought those videos were just about entertainment. not so much a statement of belief or lack thereof. it may be possible that he did a ghost video, without believing in ghosts, just as he did thriller without believing in the occult.
 
Pace,MioDolceCuore
can't we stop hurting each other?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAg1rglAovs

"Michael Jackson is not and never was damaged. Feel better about yourself, but don't do it by talking down someone else." :better:
Click to expand...
The important revelation to remember here is, Yes, "LOVE" continues to grow in the Afterlife, just ask the Angel Karen. I sure she was there to meet Michael. :yes:
Can you imagine in Heaven these two Angels, Michael and Karen, singing in harmony? Click and Enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3doTyoI80E&NR=1&feature=fvwp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[youtube]O3doTyoI80E&NR=1&feature=fvwp[/youtube]


 
I think she was speaking about the JW Bible.. Dunno tho. Hell does exist. But I don't want more heated and sincerely obnoxious arguments on this topic again, with some being accused of enforcing their beliefs down ppl's throats, when the accusing ones do the same, but even more forcefully. ..

I think, for one, this thread will lead to nowhere, and that since Michael didn't like talking about his specific religious beliefs in public and it touches upon privacy.. yeah. ..
 
I strongly believe he's very open and respects every religion there is.
 
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