Michael - The Great Album Debate

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Well, I always take words from "critics" with a grain of salt. At least this Joe Vogel guy focused on the songs, not the made-up stories about Michael.

I disagree with what Vogel said about the Cascio tracks:

They aren't all the polished, perfectionist-Michael Jackson people are accustomed to hearing, but they are him, and what some of his closest friends and collaborators felt his fans deserved to hear.

I'm not going to go into whether the songs are Michael's or not. Yet, the above sentence bothers me. None of his closest friends or collaborators can determine what Michael's fans deserved to hear. Actually, none of us is entitled to anything. Only Michael could determine what he wanted us to see and what he wanted us to hear. I know Michael can no longer make that call. The best thing Michael's collaborators can do is to release songs completed with integrity, release songs that the "perfectionist-Michael Jackson" would have been proud of. The release of the Cascio tracks are soley driven by cost/profitablity concern. Don't make it sound like they do it for the fans.

By the end of the article, I'm already confused by the writer's stance.

First, he mentioned, "Teddy Riley gives the song a fresh but faithful sheen."

Then, he said, "But occasionally, the creative liberties taken do seem questionable, or at the very least, unexplained."

So, is it faithful or questionable? :scratch:

I do give the writer some credits because I've seen much worse reviews way too many times.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's funny how I can instantly recognize Michael's voice at the beginning of The Way You Love Me, on a voicemail, but can't recognize it at all on the Cascio Tracks, which were recorded in a recording studio...

I know...Funny, isn't it? What a load of bull we've been fed.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

why not blame the ones that bought them? selling is a thing of supply and demand. If there wasn't/isn't demand , you can't sell anything.

and actually Joe Vogel himself answers your question(s)

"They aren't all the polished, perfectionist-Michael Jackson people are accustomed to hearing, but they are him, and what some of his closest friends and collaborators felt his fans deserved to hear."


btw : is Lady Gaga's new song has to much "inspiration" from Madonna?

Sellers decide to sell, not the buyer in this case. So sorry, but The Cascio weren't forced to sell anything.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

None of his closest friends or collaborators can determine what Michael's fans deserved to hear. Actually, none of us is entitled to anything. Only Michael could determine what he wanted us to see and what he wanted us to hear. I know Michael can no longer make that call.

true but that's the reality of posthumous releases. we are bound to get "not perfect" releases simply because Michael isn't here to perfect tgem

The best thing Michael's collaborators can do is to release songs completed with integrity, release songs that the "perfectionist-Michael Jackson" would have been proud of. The release of the Cascio tracks are soley driven by cost/profitablity concern. Don't make it sound like they do it for the fans.

Vogel says the same thing "If for no other reason than documenting history, then, it would seem worthwhile to release the originals/demos as well (perhaps as bonus tracks or a supplementary album), even if they aren't perfectly polished or updated." and I'm sure we will get the raw untouched demos some time in the future.

By the end of the article, I'm already confused by the writer's stance.

First, he mentioned, "Teddy Riley gives the song a fresh but faithful sheen."

Then, he said, "But occasionally, the creative liberties taken do seem questionable, or at the very least, unexplained."

So, is it faithful or questionable? :scratch:

I didn't copy the whole article (will link it below).he talks about all the songs, he says he's not keen about the spoken bridge in Hollywood tonight and "Another day" has became a more Lenny Kravitz song and guitars overwhelm MJ's vocals. and questions whether Michael planned to "update" or "modernize" some songs (Behind the Mask).

so that might be things he refer to as "unexplained creative liberties".


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-vogel/is-emmichaelem-really-mic_b_792337.html

Sellers decide to sell, not the buyer in this case. So sorry, but The Cascio weren't forced to sell anything.

so then you are saying Sony was forced to buy and furthermore forced to release them then? why?

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I know...Funny, isn't it? What a load of bull we've been fed.

Yeah, I certainly don't believe that excuse...

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Yeah, I certainly don't believe that excuse...

That's all it's been - excuse after excuse after excuse. How many does it take before people see these tracks for what they really are?

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

That's all it's been - excuse after excuse after excuse. How many does it take?

I know, In my opinion, If they certainly had definitive proof that Michael was indeed singing Monster, Breaking News,etc, They would have already released that proof, before the continued uproar, and most importantly before the album was released, therefore alleviating doubts and more fans would have then brought the album on release. The fact that their staying quite say's to me that their only proof is their word, which left me very unconvinced during the Oprah show, with their body language and stupid explanation.

"No one can scream like him" EXACTLY! Which is why were questioning the vocals, because the scream does not sound like him (Save for the pasted adlibs of course...).

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

so then you are saying Sony was forced to buy and furthermore forced to release them then? why?

No, I never said that. I said that the Cascio were not forced to sell.

Regarding SONY, I am saying that they are running business and place money where they see an opportunity. The Cascios were an opportunity, SONY offered a price, The Cascios sold the soul. Jackpot for them. How nice friends they are.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I know, In my opinion, If they certainly had definitive proof that Michael was indeed singing Monster, Breaking News,etc, They would have already released that proof, before the continued uproar, and most importantly before the album was released, therefore alleviating doubts and more fans would have then brought the album on release. The fact that their staying quite say's to me that their only proof is their word, which left me very unconvinced during the Oprah show, with their body language and stupid explanation.

"No one can scream like him" EXACTLY! Which is why were questioning the vocals, because the scream does not sound like him (Save for the pasted adlibs of course...).

Of course...Throw an ad lib in there that only fans will be able to tell is copied and pasted from actually Michael Jackson songs. The general public doesn't know any different...So, of course, it's easy for Teddy to say 'No one can scream like that'...No shit, Teddy!

There was no explanation on Oprah...None whatsoever...Tons of pictures of Michael in their house, yet none of him in the actual recording studio. Eddie's only proof is...'It's him...I was there....pushing buttons...'....The body language was terrible..That show was an absolute waste of time. I also find it quite interesting that the Cascio's were able to explain in detail their relationship with Michael (taking out the garbage, eating candy and turkey dinners), yet, so VAGUE when attempting to prove it's Michael on those vocals...My God, what a bunch of bull....

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

No, I never said that. I said that the Cascio were not forced to sell.

Regarding SONY, I am saying that they are running business and place money where they see an opportunity. The Cascios were an opportunity, SONY offered a price, The Cascios sold the soul. Jackpot for them. How nice friends they are.

okay but still if the songs were an "opportunity" for Sony don't we have conclude that the songs are "good". otherwise why would Sony want the songs , especially if Michael had hundreds of songs lying around?

Tons of pictures of Michael in their house, yet none of him in the actual recording studio.

In all fairness the pictures/videos they showed from their house was from 80s/ early 90s. It's not like they showed 100s of pictures from 2007 and omitted "studio pictures".

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Of course...Throw an ad lib in there that only fans will be able to tell is copied and pasted from actually Michael Jackson songs. The general public doesn't know any different...So, of course, it's easy for Teddy to say 'No one can scream like that'...No shit, Teddy!

There was no explanation on Oprah...None whatsoever...Tons of pictures of Michael in their house, yet none of him in the actual recording studio. Eddie's only proof is...'It's him...I was there....pushing buttons...'....The body language was terrible..That show was an absolute waste of time. I also find it quite interesting that the Cascio's were able to explain in detail their relationship with Michael (taking out the garbage, eating candy and turkey dinners), yet, so VAGUE when attempting to prove it's Michael on those vocals...My God, what a bunch of bull....

And You would think considering they took Tons of pictures, they would take a shot or two of Michael in the recording studio recording the songs. That was their chance to show proof, in front of a worldwide audience as large as the Oprah Winfrey Show, but of course, all we got was their word, and I couldn't trust them as far as I could throw them personally. Don't get me started with Teddy either, I had enormous, enormous respect for him and his work before November...

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

true but that's the reality of posthumous releases. we are bound to get "not perfect" releases simply because Michael isn't here to perfect tgem

I don't disagree with you about the reality of posthumous releases. I know we are bound to get "not perfect" releases. But, does imperfect means deceiful?

I understand you deem the supporting vocals to be legit. But, I can't. The supporting vocals are so dominant to a point that let one doubts who one is truly listening to. When I listen to a Michael Jackson song, I want to hear Michael Jackson not James Porte or whoever. Is it too much to ask?

The truth is we are bound to get what Michael's closet friends and collaborators think what will generate the most revenue in the most cost effective way. They don't think about what Michael would have thought what his fans deserved. Big difference.

Vogel says the same thing "If for no other reason than documenting history, then, it would seem worthwhile to release the originals/demos as well (perhaps as bonus tracks or a supplementary album), even if they aren't perfectly polished or updated." and I'm sure we will get the raw untouched demos some time in the future.

I agree with him. I hope so too.

I didn't copy the whole article (will link it below).he talks about all the songs, he says he's not keen about the spoken bridge in Hollywood tonight and "Another day" has became a more Lenny Kravitz song and guitars overwhelm MJ's vocals. and questions whether Michael planned to "update" or "modernize" some songs (Behind the Mask).

so that might be things he refer to as "unexplained creative liberties".


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-vogel/is-emmichaelem-really-mic_b_792337.html

It makes more sense now. Sorry, I didn't read the whole article. I've never been too keen on reading articles from critics.

Still, I found it interesting that he deemed Teddy's work to be faithful and Lenny's work to be unexplainable. Oh well... each to his own.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

And You would think considering they took Tons of pictures, they would take a shot or two of Michael in the recording studio recording the songs. That was their chance to show proof, in front of a worldwide audience as large as the Oprah Winfrey Show, but of course, all we got was their word, and I couldn't trust them as far as I could throw them personally. Don't get me started with Teddy either, I had enormous, enormous respect for him and his work before November...

Yes, I feel the same as you about Teddy...What a massive disappointment I have in that man.

And, about that proof? As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

In all fairness the pictures/videos they showed from their house was from 80s/ early 90s. It's not like they showed 100s of pictures from 2007 and omitted "studio pictures".

Yes, you're right....Although, why weren't there any pictures of him in the studio? A microphone stand and a pillow doesn't tell us anything! lol Why even bother showing a studio anyway?

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Yes, I feel the same as you about Teddy...What a massive disappointment I have in that man.

And, about that proof? As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.

Same, if anything hopefully WE can get some proof to prove our point, but like a forensic Musicologist stated on MaxJax, Even with their tests they can't prove that it is 100% Michael Jackson...

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

And You would think considering they took Tons of pictures, they would take a shot or two of Michael in the recording studio recording the songs.

actually if you read the recent Dr. Freeze interview in which he says Michael didn't want to be filmed/photographed when recording it would make sense,

and can somebody give me a link to these "tons" of pictures ? I think I only saw 5-6 pictures mainly from 80s and 90s : 2-3 MJ with baby/kid Cascio's, 1 MJ listening to Eddie play piano, 1 pillow fight and 1 2009 photo.

Yes, you're right....Although, why weren't there any pictures of him in the studio? A microphone stand and a pillow doesn't tell us anything! lol Why even bother showing a studio anyway?

see above Dr. Freeze interview. However I don't know if you seen what I posted before (see below). It's impossible to know what it is actually but the registration makes me highly curious.

speaking of copyrights - look what I have just found

MJAngeliksonStudios.

Type of Work: Visual Material
Registration Number / Date: VAu001042269 / 2010-09-27
Title: MJAngeliksonStudios.
Description: Electronic file (eService)
Date of Creation: 2007
Authorship on Application: Edward Cascio; Domicile: United States; Citizenship: United States. Authorship: photograph(s)

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Same, if anything hopefully WE can get some proof to prove our point, but like a forensic Musicologist stated on MaxJax, Even with their tests they can't prove that it is 100% Michael Jackson...

haha....my proof is the Jason Malachi comparisons...I never wanted to jump on that bandwagon...But, I mean, come on..the videos are damning in every way.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

okay but still if the songs were an "opportunity" for Sony don't we have conclude that the songs are "good". otherwise why would Sony want the songs , especially if Michael had hundreds of songs lying around?

How can we conclude on the quality of the songs when no one knew exactly how they sound when Sony made the purchase?

Sony bought the songs not necessarily because of quality, but because of marketability. These Cascios songs are branded as the last Michael Jackson recordings. They are his last "gifts to his fans."

Don't you also agree that good songs may not sell and songs that sell may not be good? Quality and sellability are not always in a direct correlationship.

Of course Sony saw the songs as opportunity. Which of the following would generate most buzz?

1. An album of outtakes from the 80's and the 90's

2. An album of incomplete demos and "guide vocals"

3. An album of classical compositions

4. An album of songs recorded in Michael's final years

It's obvious to Sony.

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

actually if you read the recent Dr. Freeze interview in which he says Michael didn't want to be filmed/photographed when recording it would make sense,

and can somebody give me a link to these "tons" of pictures ? I think I only saw 5-6 pictures mainly from 80s and 90s : 2-3 MJ with baby/kid Cascio's, 1 MJ listening to Eddie play piano, 1 pillow fight and 1 2009 photo.




see above Dr. Freeze interview. However I don't know if you seen what I posted before (see below). It's impossible to know what it is actually but the registration makes me highly curious.

speaking of copyrights - look what I have just found

MJAngeliksonStudios.

Type of Work: Visual Material
Registration Number / Date: VAu001042269 / 2010-09-27
Title: MJAngeliksonStudios.
Description: Electronic file (eService)
Date of Creation: 2007
Authorship on Application: Edward Cascio; Domicile: United States; Citizenship: United States. Authorship: photograph(s)

Very Interesting, Good detective work!

To answer your first statement, Sure Michael may not have liked it, but their are tons of images of Michael in a recording studio if you look, so I find it surprising that their isn't any trace of Michael recording in the Cascio studio...

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

actually if you read the recent Dr. Freeze interview in which he says Michael didn't want to be filmed/photographed when recording it would make sense,

and can somebody give me a link to these "tons" of pictures ? I think I only saw 5-6 pictures mainly from 80s and 90s : 2-3 MJ with baby/kid Cascio's, 1 MJ listening to Eddie play piano, 1 pillow fight and 1 2009 photo.




see above Dr. Freeze interview. However I don't know if you seen what I posted before (see below). It's impossible to know what it is actually but the registration looks interesting


speaking of copyrights - look what I have just found

MJAngeliksonStudios.

Type of Work: Visual Material
Registration Number / Date: VAu001042269 / 2010-09-27
Title: MJAngeliksonStudios.
Description: Electronic file (eService)
Date of Creation: 2007
Authorship on Application: Edward Cascio; Domicile: United States; Citizenship: United States. Authorship: photograph(s)

Well, to me, 5-6 pictures is a decent amount. It's probably true that Mike didn't want to be filmed/photographed on a regular basis in the studios...But we have seen plenty of pics of him in the studio. Not A LOT, but we have seen some...And in them, he didn't seem to be terribly uncomfortable...So, that's a bit of a poor excuse, IMO

You've posted that copyright before...Excuse my ignorance, but I don't know what any of it means...They have photos? of what?

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

How can we conclude on the quality of the songs when no one knew exactly how they sound when Sony made the purchase?

Sony bought the songs not necessarily because of quality, but because of marketability. These Cascios songs are branded as the last Michael Jackson recordings. They are his last "gifts to his fans."

Don't you also agree that good songs may not sell and songs that sell may not be good? Quality and sellability are not always in a direct correlationship.

oh I totally agree. No arguments there.

but still my question of "why these songs over other hundreds songs" stay.

Everyone acknowledged that these are unfinished demos/guide vocals that are not at Michael's standard. so why? do you say simply because they are the "last songs"?

You've posted that copyright before...Excuse my ignorance, but I don't know what any of it means...They have photos? of what?

It's impossible to tell what these photos consist of. But the registration is for "photos" taken in "2007" that is named "MJAngeliksonStudios" and that would be something that would warrant a copyright registration (meaning you want to establish your ownership and rights).

edit : It could also be that single photo of studio shown in Oprah. but I wouldn't personally register that but that's me.

 

[Moon__Walk]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

oh I totally agree. No arguments there.

but still my question of "why these songs over other hundreds songs" stay.

Everyone acknowledged that these are unfinished demos/guide vocals that are not at Michael's standard. so why? do you say simply because they are the "last songs"?




It's impossible to tell what these photos consist of. But the registration is for "photos" taken in "2007" that is named "MJAngeliksonStudios" and that would be something that would warrant a copyright registration (meaning you want to establish your ownership and rights).

When Were they registered?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

okay but still if the songs were an "opportunity" for Sony don't we have conclude that the songs are "good". otherwise why would Sony want the songs , especially if Michael had hundreds of songs lying around?

Who said that they aren't ready to pay for other songs? How do you know that they didn't try to buy other songs, for example from Will I Am or others? And even if they manage to buy them, I have nothing against as long as they sound Michael Jackson, just like the 7 songs on the album.

Let's hope if they feel the urge to release the rest of the Cascio songs, they release them as bonuses, attempts, or whatever, but for God's sake, not as a part of the official tracklist on an album.

And, I am repeating, they really should hire back an audiologist and examine Jason's vocals. Jason himself stated that if he wanted to sing just like Michael Jackson no one would be able to tell the difference. So this statement should never be neglected and must be sorted out.

I would like to hear an audiologist say if Jason could or not fool people and even the audiologists themselves.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's impossible to tell what these photos consist of. But the registration is for "photos" taken in "2007" that is named "MJAngeliksonStudios" and that would be something that would warrant a copyright registration (meaning you want to establish your ownership and rights).

edit : It could also be that single photo of studio shown in Oprah. but I wouldn't personally register that but that's me.

ah, gotcha...Thanks...!

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Michael recorded a duet with Woody Allen. I got a proof! Here it is:

 

[Tom]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Michael recorded a duet with Woody Allen. I got a proof! Here it is:

Wow, I'd love to hear that!

I've also just found out that Michael recorded in Jay-Z's basement. See? Here's the proof

Jay-Z is off camera, pushing buttons.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Nevermind, did it myself:

 

[Tom]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

:mello:

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

oh I totally agree. No arguments there.

but still my question of "why these songs over other hundreds songs" stay.

Everyone acknowledged that these are unfinished demos/guide vocals that are not at Michael's standard. so why? do you say simply because they are the "last songs"?

The bold part - isn't it a question that all of us are still struggling for an answer? I wish I know what Messer Branca and McClain were thinking when they approved the final tracklist.

As to your question on why these sub-standard songs over hundreds of songs, none of us really has enough information to answer.

First, are there really hundreds of songs in the vault? All along, we thought Michael over-recorded. Michael himself said so. Quincy Jones said so. Frank Dileo said so. But then, we also have contradicting reports. Some claimed Sony doesn't really have that many releasable materials to work with. May be the Estate has control of the vault and doesn't want to give Sony more than enough materials. May be the Esate wants to save quality recordings for future releases. Songs with complete Michael Jackson vocals are limited in quantity, they will run out one day. May be the Estate don't want to exhaust them too quickly.

Second, the label "Michael Jackson's Last Songs" is indeed more marketable than "Outtakes from the BAD album". Look at the current discussion on the second single choice. IMHO, BTM is a stronger song than HT. The vocals are stronger and more energetic. Song arrrangement is better. BTM is more complete. But, some are agaist it because it's almost 30 years old. It sounds dated and 80's. Good music is timeless. Furthermore, the song doesn't sound dated. It doesn't scream 80's. However, people are indeed bias sometimes. Once the fact "outtake from the Thriller session" is introduced, people automatically feel the song is old. So, even if Michael had hundreds of outtakes from the 80's in good quality, I can imagine Sony prefers the latest recordings.

Third, the Cascio tracks open up the door for other sub-par demos to be released. Sony tested the water this time. The Cascio tracks are generally negatively received. So what? The album still sells. If I were Sony Music's CEO, I'd open a bottle of champagne to celebrate. Michael, an economical album of 10 songs (with at 3 sub par tracks) became one of Sony's best-selling release in 2010. It went on to become a multi-platinum selling album globally. Sony's investment paid off not only this time, but for more future releases to come. This formula works! Sony sees putting together a Michael Jackson album with a mix of genuine good songs and crappy demos a totally feasible strategy.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

:mello:

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

this is hilarious!