Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Topflux]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I don't remember the Estate attributed the lack of warm up sessions to why Michael sounded different.

If Michael was serious enough to record a full demo, why would he not warm up his voice?

If you are good enough and you think the ambitus is ok for you at the moment, you don't necessarily warm up if that's like a practice or "guide" recording.. Those recordings were not probably meant to be final demos at all. More like "home recordings", but in the end they just can be great enough.

 

[Mikaeel101]

I’d like to take this time to thank all the members that took their time to answer my questions. I still don’t understand how it was bias though, but whatever. Seems it’s mostly due to the fact that there are more questions regarding why people think it’s Michael, but it makes sense. The first 10 people to respond to the questions were people who believe it’s Jason, funny how that works.

I wasn’t trying to be unfair to the people who think it’s Michael, it just happened that way. But of course there’d be more questions for you guys because it involves more controversy. There’s no controversy surrounding Hold My Hand, Behind the Mask, etc. That’s what the whole Oprah show was about anyway, the controversy, un answered questions. It’s not like the show was centered around people who believe it’s Michael, that would sound and look stupid on television.

I also think, being that I asked more questions, you guys should be proud of that. There’s more reasons and answers you guys could give surrounding why you believe how you believe. If you had nothing to hide, it should’ve been no problem huh, guess not. Funny how the first 10 replies I get are from people who believe it was Jason (or another impersonator) Just goes to show, again, that we have nothing to hide. So I don’t see what’s so bias about us having to answer less questions. Would’ve been kind of silly, at least for me, to delete 10 questions just to even it out, and that’s not fair. If you want the same amount of questions, come up with the same amount of comparison videos and make an effort.

If anything’s bias, it’s the simple fact that people like me, the ones who believe it’s Jason, are the only ones coming up with the comparison videos. Probably taking time out of our day to prove how we feel and stand up for the artist we’ve grown to love. I think it’s bias for people to claim Michael is on the songs but not have the patience to come up with a decent video to challenge us with. The people who believe it’s Jason are mostly the ones arguing and trying to prove a point with videos and such. Why? Because we believe in how we feel about this whole thing and we’re confident enough to talk about it. I also think it’s bias that there are around 1000 videos comparing the Cascio songs to Jason, but there’s maybe 1 or 2 where somebody compares it to Michael. Why? Are the people who believe it’s Michael not confident enough to challenge us with a video?

Again I’d like to thank the 10 or so people who answered the questions as honestly as they could, but I’d also like to thank… the one member (Stacey I think) who believed it was Michael to answer the Cascio questions as well. Honestly, some of your answers are pretty debatable, but of course, none of us have proof, not even I have proof.

Sorry if I upset anybody with the questions, but like I said, if you were confident you should’ve had nothing to hide.

 

[ivy]

the one member (Stacey I think) who believed it was Michael to answer the Cascio questions as well.

I think you are talking about me.

If you had nothing to hide, it should’ve been no problem huh, guess not. Funny how the first 10 replies I get are from people who believe it was Jason (or another impersonator) Just goes to show, again, that we have nothing to hide.

Sorry if I upset anybody with the questions, but like I said, if you were confident you should’ve had nothing to hide.

and I want to thank you for continuing to belittle/ insult me (and a few others) that took you seriously, spent their time and answered your questions.

as I mentioned the bias was so obvious and it was apparently not worth it.

I wrote it before there are some people that are wonderfully intelligent, comes up with interesting points, get me examine/think over these points, teach me new things, can discuss the subject wonderfully, capable of giving credit and acknowledge the possibility of an opposing idea EVEN THOUGH they believe the complete opposite. They are the sole reason that I come to this thread (and find the discussion here quite intriguing)

On the other hand unfortunately (and to my great sadness) I think we also have some people who forgets what "respect" stands for. Sorry but if I take my time to answer 25 questions and you write me stuff like " so it was a problem for you to answer the questions so I guess you are afraid you have stuff to hide" EVEN AFTER I answer the questions, I'll call that disrespectful. A respectful person WITHOUT taking any jabs would have said "I don't agree with anything you said but STILL thank you for taking the time to answer my questions".

I think it’s bias for people to claim Michael is on the songs but not have the patience to come up with a decent video to challenge us with. The people who believe it’s Jason are mostly the ones arguing and trying to prove a point with videos and such. Why? Why? Are the people who believe it’s Michael not confident enough to challenge us with a video?

why? why?

give me other vocals of Michael that are a) recorded in a basic home studio b) that are guide/demo vocals c) not recorded by professional people d) with no warm up and e) that are heavily processed with programs such as melodyne

then tell me how many videos you want and I'll do it.

I don't know if you realize it or not there's not a single believer that say the vocals are as good or exactly similar to any professionally recorded song of Michael. (For example nobody says the vocals on monster are exactly like the vocals on ghosts - therefore you wouldn't see such comparison video) On the contrary "believers" argue that the difference is explainable with the above mentioned (a,b,c,d,e) unique characteristics of Cascio songs.

ps: Disclaimer : In the future if I don't answer you, it wouldn't be because of "I have something to hide". It would be because I think my time is better spent on other things.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

@bumper, thank you so much for the borat clip and bush clip. omg... i laugh so hard that i have tears in my eyes...

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

i honestly don't remember the Estate claimed Michael sang the songs with no warm up. where do we get the no warm up statement from? or, is it a pure speculation?

 

[ivy]

i honestly don't remember the Estate claimed Michael sang the songs with no warm up. where do we get the no warm up statement from? or, is it a pure speculation?

Comes from Joe Vogel article that was published 1 day before the estate statement

The first of the Cascio tracks to be heard–”Breaking News”–obviously isn’t a perfect realization of Jackson’s abilities. Receiving the most critical attention are Jackson’s vocals, the veracity of which even some family and fans are questioning. There are understandable reasons for this. This certainly isn’t a “typical” Jackson recording: there weren’t extensive warm ups with longtime vocal coach Seth Riggs, no layering and polishing by Jackson himself, no Bruce Swedien and world-class studio technology to capture the original vocal. This was a guide demo, supplemented by the supporting vocals of James Porte (for which he is credited), and produced nearly four years later by Teddy Riley.

edit : here's the link to full article : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-vogel/exclusive-the-inside-stor_b_781364.html

 

[love is magical]

Comes from Joe Vogel article that was published 1 day before the estate statement

The first of the Cascio tracks to be heard–”Breaking News”–obviously isn’t a perfect realization of Jackson’s abilities. Receiving the most critical attention are Jackson’s vocals, the veracity of which even some family and fans are questioning. There are understandable reasons for this. This certainly isn’t a “typical” Jackson recording: there weren’t extensive warm ups with longtime vocal coach Seth Riggs, no layering and polishing by Jackson himself, no Bruce Swedien and world-class studio technology to capture the original vocal. This was a guide demo, supplemented by the supporting vocals of James Porte (for which he is credited), and produced nearly four years later by Teddy Riley.

Thanks Ivy. The way I read it still doesn't mean no warm up. No extensive warm up doesn't mean no warm up at all. No warm up with Seth Riggs doesn't mean no warm up at all.

By the way, who is Joe Vogel? What's his relationship with Michael? The Cascios? Sony? The Estate? Why is he in the picture?

 

[azsummergirl]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

the whole "no vocal warm up" thing just sounds like yet another excuse sony's camp has come up with to explain why the vocals don't sound like michael. they threw in "pvc pipe" and "low-quality equipment" later, just for good measure. they KNEW the product they were releasing sounded questionable, so they braced themselves for the fans who would call them on it by coming up with a lot of:
"ya, but . . . . "
"and also because . . ."
"but wait, michael was . . . "

excuses.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Comes from Joe Vogel article that was published 1 day before the estate statement

The first of the Cascio tracks to be heard–”Breaking News”–obviously isn’t a perfect realization of Jackson’s abilities. Receiving the most critical attention are Jackson’s vocals, the veracity of which even some family and fans are questioning. There are understandable reasons for this. This certainly isn’t a “typical” Jackson recording: there weren’t extensive warm ups with longtime vocal coach Seth Riggs, no layering and polishing by Jackson himself, no Bruce Swedien and world-class studio technology to capture the original vocal. This was a guide demo, supplemented by the supporting vocals of James Porte (for which he is credited), and produced nearly four years later by Teddy Riley.

edit : here's the link to full article : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-vogel/exclusive-the-inside-stor_b_781364.html

And such imperfection times three, we are lucky enough to have it on the first posthumous album of Michael Jackson the perfectionist provided by Michael's best friends, so called second family. Thanks a lot.

p.s. on all other non warmed up interviews when Michael sings a cappella, he still sounds Michael Jackson.

 

[Dark Artist]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

give me other vocals of Michael that are a) recorded in a basic home studio b) that are guide/demo vocals c) not recorded by professional people d) with no warm up and e) that are heavily processed with programs such as melodyne

I'm guessing your point is that no other such vocals exist. That is also our point.

You want to talk guideline vocals, let's talk that. Let's discuss some of Michael's roughest demos. In the Back, for example, didn't even have finished lyrics. They were simply 'doo dee dah dah dah's'. Also, he doesn't sound like he's giving it his all.

In fact, most of Michael's demos that we've heard, including the Billie Jean demo do not contain the lyrics in their entirety, or the lyrics are slurred because he forgets them.

This never happens in any of the Cascio tracks. All of the lyrics are complete, the singer had plenty of time to add extra ad-libs, and it actually sounds like they're making an effort. No slurring of words, nothing like that.

If the excuse for the Cascio vocals is that they were of the roughest nature, I don't buy it, simply for the above reasons. It's not an excuse, it's a load of rubbish. All of Michael's demos have vocals that sound rougher than the ones in the Cascio tracks and they still sounds like him.

 

[azsummergirl]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

just curious. a little OT.

i'm a huge prince fan and i remember a while ago there was a controversy where people thought he was the One on this track. obviously a totally different situation, but just out of curiosity . . . does anyone (who listens to prince) think this sounds like him?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I'm guessing your point is that no other such vocals exist. That is also our point.

You want to talk guideline vocals, let's talk that. Let's discuss some of Michael's roughest demos. In the Back, for example, didn't even have finished lyrics. They were simply 'doo dee dah dah dah's'. Also, he doesn't sound like he's giving it his all.

In fact, most of Michael's demos that we've heard, including the Billie Jean demo do not contain the lyrics in their entirety, or the lyrics are slurred because he forgets them.

This never happens in any of the Cascio tracks. All of the lyrics are complete, the singer had plenty of time to add extra ad-libs, and it actually sounds like they're making an effort. No slurring of words, nothing like that.

If the excuse for the Cascio vocals is that they were of the roughest nature, I don't buy it, simply for the above reasons. It's not an excuse, it's a load of rubbish. All of Michael's demos have vocals that sound rougher than the ones in the Cascio tracks and they still sounds like him.

Yup, here is an example:

[youtube]PIm12LBuAlk[/youtube]

 

[larry141094]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I think some of you (not naming anyone) are really stubborn, to the point that you dont even HEAR correctly, and i'm pretty sure all you focus on is the fact that your right and we're wrong, but the FACTS ARE

#1 Michael recorded songs at the Cascios (i came to the conclusion last night, as it is indeed possible for him to have recorded there, as well as that, it's not cheap to build a studio like that, so he must have used it regularly)

#2 A few Jacksons (not all) Such as 3T, Joe and LaToya state that an imposter was used

#3 The recordings themselves are of poor quality and it is possible beyond reasonable doubt that Michael recorded these songs while he was sick, or perhaps even not vocalising to a full extent.

#4 Breaking News is obviously botchy and was filled in by a back up singer

#5 Jason Malachi denies involvement with the recording

#6 Over 10 people whom worked with Michael more recently all say that the songs are him

#7 Lyrics of all the Cascio tracks may or may not have been complete

With these facts all you can piece together is that Michael sang the cascio tracks without his strong vocalisation (these were obviously just ideas) Comparing past demo's to now is very inaccurate as many of his demos released before now were recorded in the 80's and 90's, and hey lets face it, he was getting older, and may not have put 110% into private layouts for future projects.

Bringing up what it "sounds like" to you wouldn't be worth anything to anyone in court, so going on that alone and ignoring the other evidence you are being biased and not truly seeking the truth

 

[barok232]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

If my memory isn't failing me I voted "MJ sings parts". However I didn't mean MJ + impostor. I meant MJ + legit additional vocals. So I guess I'm combined into "not Michael" category then? Perhaps we should have been more clearer about what does "part Michael" meant because it looks like I misunderstood it? Because my understanding of the poll was like "100% Michael", "100% NOT Michael" , "some percentage of Michael" and "I don't know".

You may have a good memory, but what about comprehension? The poll was about the LEAD VOCALS. All legit MJ songs (except duets of course) contain 100% MJ vocals on the lead. The rest are additional/chorus/back vocals, you name it and those are usually sung by MJ but not necessarilly.

So I guess you partially "joined" the doubting side with your vote

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I think some of you (not naming anyone) are really stubborn, to the point that you dont even HEAR correctly, and i'm pretty sure all you focus on is the fact that your right and we're wrong, but the FACTS ARE

#1 Michael recorded songs at the Cascios (i came to the conclusion last night, as it is indeed possible for him to have recorded there, as well as that, it's not cheap to build a studio like that, so he must have used it regularly)

#2 A few Jacksons (not all) Such as 3T, Joe and LaToya state that an imposter was used

#3 The recordings themselves are of poor quality and it is possible beyond reasonable doubt that Michael recorded these songs while he was sick, or perhaps even not vocalising to a full extent.

#4 Breaking News is obviously botchy and was filled in by a back up singer

#5 Jason Malachi denies involvement with the recording

#6 Over 10 people whom worked with Michael more recently all say that the songs are him

#7 Lyrics of all the Cascio tracks may or may not have been complete

With these facts all you can piece together is that Michael sang the cascio tracks without his strong vocalisation (these were obviously just ideas) Comparing past demo's to now is very inaccurate as many of his demos released before now were recorded in the 80's and 90's, and hey lets face it, he was getting older, and may not have put 110% into private layouts for future projects.

Bringing up what it "sounds like" to you wouldn't be worth anything to anyone in court, so going on that alone and ignoring the other evidence you are being biased and not truly seeking the truth

The undeniable FACT is that there IS a CONTROVERSY, not because some are stubborn, but because some don't recognize Michael.

 

[Tony R]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The funny thing is that many screams were copy-pasted from previous demos or songs lol, exactly the same way Lenny did it for "Another Day".

I just found it a pitty that Lenny didn't sing two additional verses, it is an excellent singer, really. I mean like Lenny starts a verse, Michael continues, Lenny takes over and finally Michael finishes it. Or the other way round - Michael starts, then Lenny, Michael, Lenny.

Somebody answered me that it is because there aren't many songs where Michael sings looool.

That was me!

I like a bit of Lenny, but I like the fact that AD is all Mike on lead vocal. I wiah HMH was like that. I think it shows Lenny in a good light that he didn't try & usurp Michael.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Maybe we should compile a list of excuses as to how these abominations could possibly be Michael Jackson. Let me give it a try:

1. Michael Jackson didn't warm up.
2. Michael Jackson had a cold.
3. Michael Jackson was 'just messing around'.
4. Michael Jackson recorded these as 'guide vocals'.
5. Michael Jackson recorded these as 'demos'.
6. The Cascio's had a poor quality studio.
7. The files were uploaded incorrectly by Sony.
8. Teddy Riley used 'Melodyne'.
9. Michael Jackson recorded some vocals over the telephone.
10. Michael Jackson recorded some of his vocals through a PVC pipe. A PVC pipe!
11. Michael Jackson was 'trying a different style'.
12. Michael Jackson was 'trying to sound different'.
13. James Porte sings parts of the Cascio songs.

I'm sure there are others that I just can't remember off the top of my head. Anyone else want to add some?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

That was me!

I like a bit of Lenny, but I like the fact that AD is all Mike on lead vocal. I wiah HMH was like that. I think it shows Lenny in a good light that he didn't try & usurp Michael.

Ah it was you lol. It was a funny comment.
Ok, but when you listen to Another Day you clearly can hear that there aren't enough lyrics, which automatically led to more refrains. But anyway, it is a grat song.

And here a little video showing Lenny in the street. When I saw this video, I surely saw first how nice he is and second how an excellent singer he is.
Listen to his voice in the street, with a cheap microphone-- guess what, he sounds exactly LENNY. (And someone tries to make me believe that Michael couldn't sound Michael in a studio because of this, because of that?????):


[youtube]SBgZNINN6MU&feature=related[/youtube]

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Maybe we should compile a list of excuses as to how these abominations could possibly be Michael Jackson. Let me give it a try:

1. Michael Jackson didn't warm up.
2. Michael Jackson had a cold.
3. Michael Jackson was 'just messing around'.
4. Michael Jackson recorded these as 'guide vocals'.
5. Michael Jackson recorded these as 'demos'.
6. The Cascio's had a poor quality studio.
7. The files were uploaded incorrectly by Sony.
8. Teddy Riley used 'Melodyne'.
9. Michael Jackson recorded some vocals over the telephone.
10. Michael Jackson recorded some of his vocals through a PVC pipe. A PVC pipe!
11. Michael Jackson was 'trying a different style'.
12. Michael Jackson was 'trying to sound different'.
13. James Porte sings parts of the Cascio songs.

I'm sure there are others that I just can't remember off the top of my head. Anyone else want to add some?

14: 2000 Watts and Shout sound 'different'; therefore, if released today, would be considered fake, too.
15: Michael Jackson doesn't sound like himself. Therefore it MUST be Michael Jackson (Sam, your favourite, how could you forget that one?)

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

14: 2000 Watts and Shout sound 'different'; therefore, if released today, would be considered fake, too.
15: Michael Jackson doesn't sound like himself. Therefore it MUST be Michael Jackson (Sam, your favourite, how could you forget that one?)

16. It doesn't sound Jason Malachi, hence it is Michael Jackson.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

By the way, don't you have impression that the title of this thread is biased? i mean, we don't want to continue the controversy, we want to find truth behind the facts! So why are we imposed this title in this thread? Why not instead of "...if you want to continue the controversy" - "...if you want to find the truth"? We never ever asked for controversy, we all want the truth!

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

double post, please delete

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

15: Michael Jackson doesn't sound like himself. Therefore it MUST be Michael Jackson (Sam, your favourite, how could you forget that one?)

Ouch! How could I forget?

"Yeah, agreed, it doesn't sound like Michael Jackson but that just shows how great he was because he was able to change his style." Translates as "Yeah it doesn't sound like Michael Jackson, hence, it's further proof that it is Michael Jackson".

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

By the way, don't you have impression that the title of this thread is biased? i mean, we don't want to continue the controversy, we want to find truth behind the facts! So why are we imposed this title in this thread? Why not instead of "...if you want to continue the controversy" - "...if you want to find the truth"? We never ever asked for controversy, we all want the truth!

YES!!! GREAT POINT!!!

Seriously, I got a little upset when I saw the added parenthesis. The added words make the doubters appear to be troublemakers, people looking to picking a fight, "conspiracy theroists". I feel "insulted".

By the way, is it MJJC's policy to close a thread if the thread is inactive for over two weeks?

I remember bumping an old thread before.

 

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Don't you think that "snort" is actually showing a legit (but not necessarily good quality) recording? If they were hiring a person to fake the vocals in the hopes of convincing people , they would re-record it.

Bump:

Yeah, but, you see, the problem is, this particularly "snort" happens to be in not only in Breaking News (twice actually), but in Jason Malchi's, not only one, but two songs called Critical and How I Do (happens twice, it's more quiet though, but it's there).

I've never heard anything sounding like a snort or similar in any of Michael's songs. Why in Jason Malchi's songs, the singer that sounds exactly like the one in The Cascio songs?

 

[Tony R]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Bump:

Yeah, but, you see, the problem is, this particularly "snort" happens to be in not only in Breaking News (twice actually), but in Jason Malchi's, not only one, but two songs called Critical and How I Do (happens twice, it's more quiet though, but it's there).

I've never heard anything sounding like a snort or similar in any of Michael's songs. Why in Jason Malchi's songs, the singer that sounds exactly like the one in The Cascio songs?

Because it's snort Michael?

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Bump:

Yeah, but, you see, the problem is, this particularly "snort" happens to be in not only in Breaking News (twice actually), but in Jason Malchi's, not only one, but two songs called Critical and How I Do (happens twice, it's more quiet though, but it's there).

I've never heard anything sounding like a snort or similar in any of Michael's songs. Why in Jason Malchi's songs, the singer that sounds exactly like the one in The Cascio songs?

may be snorting is part of that particular singer's breathing pattern. one can ask that singer to re-record 1000 times, he would still make that snort sound 1000 times.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Because it's snort Michael?

Well you've snorted that out for us

 

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Because it's snort Michael?

Find me audio where Michael does it.

may be snorting is part of that particular singer's breathing pattern. one can ask that singer to re-record 1000 times, he would still make that snort sound 1000 times.

That's what I think, since I've heard it from Jason 3-4 times. May be even more.

 

[kreen]

Comes from Joe Vogel article that was published 1 day before the estate statement

The first of the Cascio tracks to be heard–”Breaking News”–obviously isn’t a perfect realization of Jackson’s abilities. Receiving the most critical attention are Jackson’s vocals, the veracity of which even some family and fans are questioning. There are understandable reasons for this. This certainly isn’t a “typical” Jackson recording: there weren’t extensive warm ups with longtime vocal coach Seth Riggs, no layering and polishing by Jackson himself, no Bruce Swedien and world-class studio technology to capture the original vocal. This was a guide demo, supplemented by the supporting vocals of James Porte (for which he is credited), and produced nearly four years later by Teddy Riley.

edit : here's the link to full article : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-vogel/exclusive-the-inside-stor_b_781364.html

By the way, Joe Vogel's book on MJ's music, which will be a song-by-song analysis, is coming out in September. An appendix will be dedicated to "Michael", and while he couldn't get an interview with the Cascios in time for it to be included, he did talk to friends of theirs.