Michael - The Great Album Debate

[donalb]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

These songs are so obviously Michael Jackson to me that I'm really surprised this thread is still going. But it's still only the same 5 people going back and forth really...

I don't know why people were so offended by the comments about these tracks being better than some on Invincible.

It's very very true. Breaking News, Monster, Stay, and All I Need, are in my opinion better than 2000 Watts, Privacy and Break of Dawn.

EDIT:

Something that really disturbs me is all the people doubting that Michael could record 12 songs in a matter of 4 months. In his experience?!

I don't know about you guys, but one of my favorite artists right now is a man named Omar Rodriguez-Lopez, who releases about 10 albums each year of incredible music! This guy records so many records that lots are still sitting in the vaults and will never be released.

I really don't have any doubt that Michael could have recorded 30+ songs in 4 months.

Please know that the MAJORITY of the MJJC community members who have expressed their opinions about these tracks in various polls believe that Michael is not singing on these songs or only in parts which is a very BIG deal. In addition to this "silent" majority, I am extremely grateful to the very active posters in this thread who continue to stand up for the truth about these fake songs.

 

[kreen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

But oh boy are we in trouble with the next release! I bet they got Malachi at a studio somewhere as I type this, correcting the flaws we pointed out those past couple of months for the rest of the songs. Prepare yourselves!!! This time they 'll work on detail. No more goat vibrato and better pronounciation to come...

Yes, that's certainly what "they" are doing right now...

 

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

But because you KNOW which are the Cascio tracks, you let that information influence your opinion of the singer.

If Hollywood Tonight had been mistakenly labelled a Cascio track, you'd all be claiming it's obviously not MJ singing.

In the same way, if "Shout" or "2000 Watts" had never been released before and were leaked now, you'd see them as obvious fakes too.

(Me and Arklove)

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

But, how come they sound like MJ, and the Cascio tracks sound like a different person?
QUOTE]

They don't sound like a different person, they sound like MJ (especially KYHU, which I see a lot of people here conveniently never mention). But because you KNOW which are the Cascio tracks, you let that information influence your opinion of the singer.

If Hollywood Tonight had been mistakenly labelled a Cascio track, you'd all be claiming it's obviously not MJ singing.

In the same way, if "Shout" or "2000 Watts" had never been released before and were leaked now, you'd see them as obvious fakes too.

All the Cascio tracks I've heard sound like a different person. If you think they sound like Michael Jackson, that's fine for you. They don't to me. They all sound like the same person who is NOT Michael Jackson.

As for your comments on Shout, 2000 Watts, HT, that is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. You need to stop making assumptions as if you'd know what we'd hear. I don't care one bit if it's a Cascio track or not, they don't sound like Michael Jackson to me, and the fact that they are Cascio tracks has nothing to do with how I hear these songs. My ears have everything to do with that. So, enough with damn excuses and assumptions.

 

[alexcat321]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Break of Dawn deserves more respect, it's better than all those Cascio tracks because it's actually Michael and he gave them his okay and touches here and there to make them to his standard.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^^ hahaha, Pentum, I guess I didn't have to type all that, eh?

 

[kreen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

All the Cascio tracks I've heard sound like a different person. If you think they sound like Michael Jackson, that's fine for you. They don't to me. They all sound like the same person who is NOT Michael Jackson.

As for your comments on Shout, 2000 Watts, HT, you need to stop making assumptions as if you'd know what we'd hear. I don't care one bit if it's a Cascio track or not, they don't sound like Michael Jackson to me, and the fact that they are Cascio tracks has nothing to do with how I hear these songs. My ears have everything to do with that. So, enough with damn excuses and assumptions.

Some ears you guys have! Because they must have some sort of special sensor that makes them better than Greg Phillinganes, Bruce Swedien, and a whole bunch of other people's ears.

Look, if you guys said that the Cascio tracks sound a lot like MJ, but not quite, and that those slight differences are what makes you think they're fake, I could understand it.

But for you to say that they sound NOTHING like MJ, to the point where you can't even imagine how anyone could mistake them for MJ, is such an outlandish thing to say that it invalidates your position. Because if they REALLY didn't sound anything like MJ, they wouldn't have fooled anyone, they wouldn't be on an official MJ album, and there would be no hoax.

 

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^^ hahaha, Pentum, I guess I didn't have to type all that, eh?

Nope.

"If Hollywood Tonight had been mistakenly labelled a Cascio track, you'd all be claiming it's obviously not MJ singing"

Are you for real? No one cares if they are Cascio tracks or not. You know what? When Breaking News came, I had no idea it was a "Cascio" track or even what a Cascio track was. I barely knew who The Cascios were. before the Breaking News stream, I IGNORED EVERY article about "it's not MJ", I IGNORED every Jackson family member claiming it's not MJ. I read the headline, then I just forgot about it, like I never read it.

Then the Monster, KYHU & Stay snippet leaked, I still didn't know shit about any "Cascio tracks". Still, I knew it wasn't MJ (but Jason). After this, I became aware of what "The Cascio tracks" were. It still doesn't mean shit to me. If a new Cascio songs leaks, and I hear MJ's vocie then it's MJ. But that doesn't mean the other songs are (this will never happen, as there are no real MJ songs from The Cascios).

And come on, please, please stop using 2000 W and Shout as examples. It's getting old, I.e if a fan can't hear MJ's voice in the songs, they don't know his voice. End of it.

But for you to say that they sound NOTHING like MJ, to the point where you can't even imagine how anyone could mistake them for MJ, is such an outlandish thing to say that it invalidates your position. Because if they REALLY didn't sound anything like MJ, they wouldn't have fooled anyone, they wouldn't be on an official MJ album, and there would be no hoax.

I understand how the songs can SOUND like Michael Jackson, but anyone who knows his voice should be able to tell the difference easily. The general listeners don't know his voice, so they just assume it's MJ and fist pump all night. If you, like me, would learn to know Jason's voice too by listening to both of his albums a lot, you'd see why I think it's 100% Jason Malachi.

 

[kreen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Break of Dawn deserves more respect, it's better than all those Cascio tracks because it's actually Michael and he gave them his okay and touches here and there to make them to his standard.

Actually, according to Dr. Freeze, MJ did nothing of the sort. He just took Freeze's song and sang it as is.

 

[barok232]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Yes, that's certainly what "they" are doing right now...

Probably, but relax, they 're not doing it for you. You are an easy task for them (Is calling someone that gonna get me banned? haha)

 

[kreen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Then the Monster, KYHU & Stay snippet leaked, I still didn't know shit about any "Cascio tracks". Still, I knew it wasn't MJ (but Jason).

If you spent any time on this and other forums at the time, I find it hard to believe you could have heard any of the Cascio tracks without knowing they were from those sessions, since any new leak was prefaced with titles like "Cascio track -- Another fake LOL", and all of the subsequent posts would be people making fun of the leaks as "obviously not MJ, it's Jason Malachi!". That is the context in which most if not all MJ fans first heard all of those songs, which hugely influenced our first impression of the songs.

I also remember that when "Stay" first leaked (I'm talking about the short snippet), under the title "Carry On", it wasn't clear at first whether it was a Cascio track or not. And sure enough, some people were sure that "Carry On is real, but the others aren't".

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Please know that the MAJORITY of the MJJC community members who have expressed their opinions about these tracks in various polls believe that Michael is not singing on these songs or only in parts which is a very BIG deal. In addition to this "silent" majority, I am extremely grateful to the very active posters in this thread who continue to stand up for the truth about these fake songs.

But that isn't true, the polls showed a split between the sides, the ones who believe its Michael, were actually leading the poll for a while, and those who are "unsure" made up a large margin themselves. So to say the majority doesn't believe it's Michael is a bit inaccurate.

 

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

If you spent any time on this and other forums at the time, I find it hard to believe you could have heard any of the Cascio tracks without knowing they were from those sessions, since any new leak was prefaced with titles like "Cascio track -- Another fake LOL", and all of the subsequent posts would be people making fun of the leaks as "obviously not MJ, it's Jason Malachi!". That is the context in which most if not all MJ fans first heard all of those songs, which hugely influenced our first impression of the songs.

I also remember that when "Stay" first leaked (I'm talking about the short snippet), under the title "Carry On", it wasn't clear at first whether it was a Cascio track or not. And sure enough, some people were sure that "Carry On is real, but the others aren't".

No, it's true, I didn't know they were from the same sessions. And you're wrong about the titles of the tracks when leaked. You think TAK leaked his snippets with such titles when he tried selling them? No.

I was one of those who called Breaking News fake, Monster, KYHU and Stay fake, All I Need fake. I didn't need any "wait for CD quality and full song before you judge" thoughts. That was all bullshit.

 

[Tom]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Just wanted to address an earlier point - the fact that the Cascio tracks don't sound like MJ because they are demos. Every OTHER track on Michael sounds more like a demo to me.

Hollywood Tonight
The beatboxing underneath the vocals (the only other time we hear this is when we hear how MJ prepared a track)
Vocal problems - The hard to understand line after "Westbound greyhound" (Which by the way is a genius line).

The Way You Love Me can't really be counted as that IS a demo, just with new instrumentation.

Best Of Joy - It is clear that the majority of vocals in the chorus is backing vocals, which gives the indication that Michael had yet to record something on top of those. Add that to the fact that it was recorded May 2009 and was due to be worked on in London = unfinished.

Another Day = Large amounts of echo added to the vocals, and obvious cut and paste ad-libs (the out of tune "come on now" used to fill space in the crescendo).

Behind the Mask = Again, the demo/guide vocal "dun dun dun" underneath the track added in to make it more interesting.
Also, the lyrics in the bridge "There is nothing in your eyes" etc. are different to the original Eric Clapton version, and to how they are written in the booklet. The fact that they're incoherent shows he wasn't done with them (Ivy, THESE are guide vocals).

Much Too Soon was finished and awaiting release.

However, the Cascio tracks are the most complete ones on there, with no signs of being a demo or anything similar. Why would he complete a large number of songs in those months with the Cascios yet in 20/30 years leave so many unfinished?

Thoughts?

 

[donalb]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

But that isn't true, the polls showed a split between the sides, the ones who believe its Michael, were actually leading the poll for a while, and those who are "unsure" made up a large margin themselves. So to say the majority doesn't believe it's Michael is a bit inaccurate.

According to the Poll of Polls, only 40% of the 395 voters believe it is 100% Michael. The MAJORITY (54%) of the voters either believe it is not Michael or maybe in parts. 6% can not decide.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Some ears you guys have! Because they must have some sort of special sensor that makes them better than Greg Phillinganes, Bruce Swedien, and a whole bunch of other people's ears.

Look, if you guys said that the Cascio tracks sound a lot like MJ, but not quite, and that those slight differences are what makes you think they're fake, I could understand it.

But for you to say that they sound NOTHING like MJ, to the point where you can't even imagine how anyone could mistake them for MJ, is such an outlandish thing to say that it invalidates your position. Because if they REALLY didn't sound anything like MJ, they wouldn't have fooled anyone, they wouldn't be on an official MJ album, and there would be no hoax.

When people say the songs sound nothing like MJ, people really mean the songs sound like MJ, but not MJ. Hence, the "impersonator" talk. The impersonator or the "supporting" vocalists tried hard to sound like MJ.

And come on, please, please stop using 2000 W and Shout as examples. It's getting old, I.e if a fan can't hear MJ's voice in the songs, they don't know his voice. End of it.


I understand how the songs can SOUND like Michael Jackson, but anyone who knows his voice should be able to tell the difference easily. The general listeners don't know his voice, so they just assume it's MJ and fist pump all night. If you, like me, would learn to know Jason's voice too by listening to both of his albums a lot, you'd see why I think it's 100% Jason Malachi.

Yes, I also hope people stop making assumptions that people had doubts in 2000 Watts and Shout. Why in God's name would people have doubt in 2000 Watts and Shout. The vocals on both songs are impeccable. Find me another vocalist who can sing with such speed and accuracy as Michael in Shout. The richness and depth of Michael's voice are so ever present in 2000 Watts.

Just wanted to address an earlier point - the fact that the Cascio tracks don't sound like MJ because they are demos. Every OTHER track on Michael sounds more like a demo to me.

Hollywood Tonight
The beatboxing underneath the vocals (the only other time we hear this is when we hear how MJ prepared a track)
Vocal problems - The hard to understand line after "Westbound greyhound" (Which by the way is a genius line).

The Way You Love Me can't really be counted as that IS a demo, just with new instrumentation.

Best Of Joy - It is clear that the majority of vocals in the chorus is backing vocals, which gives the indication that Michael had yet to record something on top of those. Add that to the fact that it was recorded May 2009 and was due to be worked on in London = unfinished.

Another Day = Large amounts of echo added to the vocals, and obvious cut and paste ad-libs (the out of tune "come on now" used to fill space in the crescendo).

Behind the Mask = Again, the demo/guide vocal "dun dun dun" underneath the track added in to make it more interesting.
Also, the lyrics in the bridge "There is nothing in your eyes" etc. are different to the original Eric Clapton version, and to how they are written in the booklet. The fact that they're incoherent shows he wasn't done with them (Ivy, THESE are guide vocals).

Much Too Soon was finished and awaiting release.

However, the Cascio tracks are the most complete ones on there, with no signs of being a demo or anything similar. Why would he complete a large number of songs in those months with the Cascios yet in 20/30 years leave so many unfinished?

Thoughts?

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

When I see some non-doubters' comments I realize that they absolutely haven't read all the proofs and quite reasonable arguments that the doubters provided. Many keep on popping in and drop their re-hashed comment such as mentioning "Invinvible" or tracks such as "2000 watts" or "Shout". They come back with arguments such as Teddy worked for 20 years, and many others who have worked confirmed it was Michael, and other rehashed blah-blah.

Now, I am just curious, why Taryll's credibility has been questioned here? And, please, spare me comments such as "he's jaelous". He actually doesn't have any reason to be jaelous, but rather proud.

p;s. The "deeper voice" argument because he got older is absolutely irrelevant. Michael could sing ina deeper voice already in the 70s as I supported my claim by a highlight from "The Wiz". "Get On The Floor" parts are sung deep as well. "Human Nature" is also sung a bit deeper. "Man in the Mirror" is also sung in a deepr voice. "Speed Daemon" is sung in a similar voice as "Privacy" or "Hollywood Tonight" etc, etc.

The Cascio songs have no such printmark whatsoever.

 

[moonwalkingsteve]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMMSR4Ad14g&feature=related

Says its MJ warming up his voice

Just found that on youtube, not sure if its real and i'm not sure whether it backs up anyones argument. Just thought I'd throw it into the mix since this is a debate. For me, if real, it shows like any other singer MJ needed to warm up his voice and is capable of making a wide variety of sounds. Since the estate statement talked about MJ not having the benefit of these warm up routines when recording the guide demos that have allegedly become the cascio tracks, i can believe its him. But hey thats just me.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMMSR4Ad14g&feature=related

Says its MJ warming up his voice

Just found that on youtube, not sure if its real and i'm not sure whether it backs up anyones argument. Just thought I'd throw it into the mix since this is a debate. For me, if real, it shows like any other singer MJ needed to warm up his voice and is capable of making a wide variety of sounds. Since the estate statement talked about MJ not having the benefit of these warm up routines when recording the guide demos that have allegedly become the cascio tracks, i can believe its him. But hey thats just me.

Thanks for the post, but I don't see the link with the debate. I would tend to believe that this is indeed Michael training his voice. I doubt that someone would go in such an effort and credit Michael for it. This training session is much harder than the range of vocals on any Cascio song.


p.s. here is another one, a bit longer than your post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJAR7WITvwI&feature=related

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

But that isn't true, the polls showed a split between the sides, the ones who believe its Michael, were actually leading the poll for a while, and those who are "unsure" made up a large margin themselves. So to say the majority doesn't believe it's Michael is a bit inaccurate.

According to the Poll of Polls, only 40% of the 395 voters believe it is 100% Michael. The MAJORITY (54%) of the voters either believe it is not Michael or maybe in parts. 6% can not decide.

Annie, you've brought up this inaccuracy before and you've also been reminded of the above percentages, so why do you bring it up again?

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Maybe she just forgot. Maybe if one of us puts it in our signature, it will be easy to remember

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Maybe she just forgot. Maybe if one of us puts it in our signature, it will be easy to remember

Don't answer in people's name on this thread, they easily get upset! yet, they claim that calling others "animal" and "monster" in a song is nothing insulting.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Maybe she just forgot. Maybe if one of us puts it in our signature, it will be easy to remember

Don't answer in people's name on this thread, they easily get upset! yet, they claim that calling others "animal" and "monster" in a song is nothing insulting.

:lol:

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Oh well, too late.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

According to the Poll of Polls, only 40% of the 395 voters believe it is 100% Michael. The MAJORITY (54%) of the voters either believe it is not Michael or maybe in parts. 6% can not decide.

Yep. You were correct the first time.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Don't answer in people's name on this thread, they easily get upset! yet, they claim that calling others "animal" and "monster" in a song is nothing insulting.

:hysterical:

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

When I see some non-doubters' comments I realize that they absolutely haven't read all the proofs and quite reasonable arguments that the doubters provided. Many keep on popping in and drop their re-hashed comment such as mentioning "Invinvible" or tracks such as "2000 watts" or "Shout". They come back with arguments such as Teddy worked for 20 years, and many others who have worked confirmed it was Michael, and other rehashed blah-blah.

Now, I am just curious, why Taryll's credibility has been questioned here? And, please, spare me comments such as "he's jaelous". He actually doesn't have any reason to be jaelous, but rather proud.

p;s. The "deeper voice" argument because he got older is absolutely irrelevant. Michael could sing ina deeper voice already in the 70s as I supported my claim by a highlight from "The Wiz". "Get On The Floor" parts are sung deep as well. "Human Nature" is also sung a bit deeper. "Man in the Mirror" is also sung in a deepr voice. "Speed Daemon" is sung in a similar voice as "Privacy" or "Hollywood Tonight" etc, etc.

The Cascio songs have no such printmark whatsoever.

I do hope that people can follow the discussions on this thread first before popping in and dropping a post.

I know this thread is getting lengthy. But, there were so many interesting discussions along the way...

The non-doubters might think this is a safehaven for the doubters to trash the Cascio tracks, which is totally not the case.

If one is patient enough to go over all the pages, one will find many interesting links, pictures, etc...

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I do hope that people can follow the discussions on this thread first before popping in and dropping a post.

I know this thread is getting lengthy. But, there were so many interesting discussions along the way...

The non-doubters might think this is a safehaven for the doubters to trash the Cascio tracks, which is totally not the case.

If one is patient enough to go over all the pages, one will find many interesting links, pictures, etc...

Exactly.

For my part I've never been so active actually. I've been a memeber for a long time now. It is the first time that I spend my time writing on this forum. I really feel as if the future of Michael's legacy is jeopardized, so I must stand in the way of it as much as I can in order to defend what seems to me to be wrong.

 

[azsummergirl]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

This time it wasn't that hard to tell.

But oh boy are we in trouble with the next release! I bet they got Malachi at a studio somewhere as I type this, correcting the flaws we pointed out those past couple of months for the rest of the songs. Prepare yourselves!!! This time they 'll work on detail. No more goat vibrato and better pronounciation to come...

But Malachi is good with high notes and falsetto (relatively convincing), whatever he does, he can NEVER imitate MJ's voice chroma especially the low notes and distortion. (And of course not to mention emotion-interpretation but I was talking more "technical")

100% agreed with this. I am confident that i will ALWAYS be able to tell the difference. but i'm sure you're right, it's going to be harder next time, if they do do it again.

and @loveismagical, you are totally right. i've read every post in this thread. I'm usually away from my computer and can't post, but it IS very interesting and enlightening. i also agree with you that the "doubters" have never, not once, underestimated michael's abilities in this thread. It's not that we don't think that he COULD record 12 crappy songs in 4 months, in a basement, we just don't think he would.

If anyone is underestimating michael, it's the "believers' *cough* kreen *cough* who troll this thread and repeatedly diss MJ's REAL work on invincible and other albums, put down his talents as a vocalist, a song-writer, etc. you're the ones underestimating michael jackson.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMMSR4Ad14g&feature=related

Says its MJ warming up his voice

Just found that on youtube, not sure if its real and i'm not sure whether it backs up anyones argument. Just thought I'd throw it into the mix since this is a debate. For me, if real, it shows like any other singer MJ needed to warm up his voice and is capable of making a wide variety of sounds. Since the estate statement talked about MJ not having the benefit of these warm up routines when recording the guide demos that have allegedly become the cascio tracks, i can believe its him. But hey thats just me.

I don't remember the Estate attributed the lack of warm up sessions to why Michael sounded different.

If Michael was serious enough to record a full demo, why would he not warm up his voice?

It's well documented that Michael took the warm up routine very seriously. The sound engineers during the HIStory sessions stated that Michael's warm up routines were extensive. Michael warmed up his voice before singing any song. Will.i.am said Michael spent HOURS warming up his voice before singing any lines.

I don't care the nature of the Cascios recordings, guide vocals, demos or whatever, it goes against Michael's habit if he was to sing without any warm up.