Applehead Ale
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I will never forget untill it's not solved. You can count on me.
ADKIc3mAnX
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Look what arrived 
ADKIc3mAnX
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BTW Stella I said "LOL" cause you always think we "Believers" are making ourselves believe that is it Michael when if you look at yourself it looks as if you made yourself believe it's not.
Supposedly we believers prefer to think it's Michael because it's easier to believe than doubt SMH.
Supposedly we believers prefer to think it's Michael because it's easier to believe than doubt SMH.
IvoDT
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Because I loved the amount of awesome posts you guys made I decided to reply to it ^_^!
T.N.A,
Using a fictional character (you obviously like) and using quotes made by "him" simply looks annoying to me because it looks so unprofessional. Back up your own crap and don't try to be a smartass with a long post with no real meaning other than to insult me and Dr. House quotes. Oh and no, internet sarcasm is known to not always come over the "right" way. Oh, and "lmao" doesn't mean I was the one being funny, no. I simply laughed at the things that were going on in this thread. ^_^
Stella,
I'm sick of your negative attitude to anyone who likes the songs in general. You, in my opinion, are way too obessed with MJ/JM/The cascios/the controversy and are doing nothing more than taking jabs at people every freaking day JUST because they don't share your opinion. Enjoy your lovely Jason malachi, your controversy, your lovely "album debate" topic and your fellow doubters while I will enjoy some decent Michael Jackson songs.
Bumper,
Read the same beautiful comment about Stella, it applies to you aswell. Fighting for your rights of being "insulted" everyday yet doing nothing more than insulting other people with their "hearing" and their inability to hear Jason malachi. Don't freaking make me laugh (which you did ^_^)! I got nothing more to say to you knowing you simply don't read other people's posts and just type crap to defend your own opinion and force it onto other people.
Moderators,
Don't you dare NOT aknowledge this because you know it is. Read the whole "super happy and free of insult" topic again please and thank you very much. I've been an internet moderator aswell and I know when I spot biased people. Do not delete my post just because it "defends" my opinion against the insults I get thrown at me (as do other people) everyday. How nice that some of you believe it's JM, but respect my opinion aswell. How the hell was Bumper's post about DBMA and believers having "hearing problems" not deleted/discussed? How the hell? That really makes me laugh.
Arklove,
Don't look down on people because as far as I've seen you don't like to be looked down at aswell (as goes for everyone). =)
Everyone has their beliefs and I'm stating the crap that has been going on here everyday. This is like the ghetto for doubters. Once a believer (I hate that word) comes in he gets attacked by everyone. No, not by arguments, but by silly crap we've heard a million times before in these 1822 pages.
The rest,
I did contribute a decent amount. I hate these doubters that come in and contribute to nothing just to make "believers" look stupid. Ohmai, did I just reversed your words?
Now let me foresee what happens!
1: Post might get deleted, if so, I would love a word with some of the moderators/admins, thank you very much.
2: My post will get a special treatment by everyone ---> People taking things (sentences) out of my comment and attacking simple sentences they "think" they can take me back on. Oh how I love this on the internet ^_^
You see, I'd love to leave this topic because it already served it's purpose (until something new comes out of course)! But I won't let people insult other people and talk behind my back on the internets (added the "s" for internet sarcasm T.N.A.). Also, if this post gets deleted, I would love to see those other very offensive posts deleted aswell. I'll even find them for you!
As to end this long comment, I do still want to see these remaining cascio songs released. Just because there are people who cry about the "fact" (LOL) these are Jason Malachi instead of MJ doesn't make me NOT want them being released. I'm fully convinced (No dreams/fantasy worlds, Bumper/Stella) that these are Michael Jackson. I don't need to back up my arguments because it has no use with you people and it has no use for myself. Nothing indicates for me this is someone else singing, no matter what you guys want to force down on me. Well then, your turn. I'm ready for another 20 pages of useless arguments, insulting and discussing "facts" we already know! ^_^
Offtopic: Don't Be Messin' 'Round is indeed a beautiful/awesome song and obviously has better vocals than the cascio songs. =D
T.N.A,
Using a fictional character (you obviously like) and using quotes made by "him" simply looks annoying to me because it looks so unprofessional. Back up your own crap and don't try to be a smartass with a long post with no real meaning other than to insult me and Dr. House quotes. Oh and no, internet sarcasm is known to not always come over the "right" way. Oh, and "lmao" doesn't mean I was the one being funny, no. I simply laughed at the things that were going on in this thread. ^_^
Stella,
I'm sick of your negative attitude to anyone who likes the songs in general. You, in my opinion, are way too obessed with MJ/JM/The cascios/the controversy and are doing nothing more than taking jabs at people every freaking day JUST because they don't share your opinion. Enjoy your lovely Jason malachi, your controversy, your lovely "album debate" topic and your fellow doubters while I will enjoy some decent Michael Jackson songs.
Bumper,
Read the same beautiful comment about Stella, it applies to you aswell. Fighting for your rights of being "insulted" everyday yet doing nothing more than insulting other people with their "hearing" and their inability to hear Jason malachi. Don't freaking make me laugh (which you did ^_^)! I got nothing more to say to you knowing you simply don't read other people's posts and just type crap to defend your own opinion and force it onto other people.
Moderators,
Don't you dare NOT aknowledge this because you know it is. Read the whole "super happy and free of insult" topic again please and thank you very much. I've been an internet moderator aswell and I know when I spot biased people. Do not delete my post just because it "defends" my opinion against the insults I get thrown at me (as do other people) everyday. How nice that some of you believe it's JM, but respect my opinion aswell. How the hell was Bumper's post about DBMA and believers having "hearing problems" not deleted/discussed? How the hell? That really makes me laugh.
Arklove,
Don't look down on people because as far as I've seen you don't like to be looked down at aswell (as goes for everyone). =)
Everyone has their beliefs and I'm stating the crap that has been going on here everyday. This is like the ghetto for doubters. Once a believer (I hate that word) comes in he gets attacked by everyone. No, not by arguments, but by silly crap we've heard a million times before in these 1822 pages.
The rest,
I did contribute a decent amount. I hate these doubters that come in and contribute to nothing just to make "believers" look stupid. Ohmai, did I just reversed your words?
Now let me foresee what happens!
1: Post might get deleted, if so, I would love a word with some of the moderators/admins, thank you very much.
2: My post will get a special treatment by everyone ---> People taking things (sentences) out of my comment and attacking simple sentences they "think" they can take me back on. Oh how I love this on the internet ^_^
You see, I'd love to leave this topic because it already served it's purpose (until something new comes out of course)! But I won't let people insult other people and talk behind my back on the internets (added the "s" for internet sarcasm T.N.A.). Also, if this post gets deleted, I would love to see those other very offensive posts deleted aswell. I'll even find them for you!
As to end this long comment, I do still want to see these remaining cascio songs released. Just because there are people who cry about the "fact" (LOL) these are Jason Malachi instead of MJ doesn't make me NOT want them being released. I'm fully convinced (No dreams/fantasy worlds, Bumper/Stella) that these are Michael Jackson. I don't need to back up my arguments because it has no use with you people and it has no use for myself. Nothing indicates for me this is someone else singing, no matter what you guys want to force down on me. Well then, your turn. I'm ready for another 20 pages of useless arguments, insulting and discussing "facts" we already know! ^_^
Offtopic: Don't Be Messin' 'Round is indeed a beautiful/awesome song and obviously has better vocals than the cascio songs. =D
dam2040
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Annoying to you, very well done to me. The quote was relevant, and just because the quoted character was fictional, that makes the quote irrelevant? I think not. The words made sense, and were relevant to the subject matter.
IvoDT
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Is that all you got out of my post? Alrighty! Let's talk Dr. House and quotes!
BUMPER SNIPPET
Guests
People who have recently become all of sudden MJ's fans after his death to me have less credibility in this debate than people who have been listening to MJ all their lives. Sorry to put it that way, but if I were a recent fan I know I would have at least had the guts to say it instead of countering long date MJ's fans as if these latter had no clue about MJ's voice after decades of intensive listening. Something is fishy with the voice in those songs, period.
IvoDT
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So the fact you are a fan for longer makes anything I say not true/credible?
That's good to know. Just so you know, I see no difference in "recent" fans or veteran fans. A fan is a fan and in my opinion Michael Jackson having more "new" recent fans is a good thing/sign.
BUMPER SNIPPET
Guests
You misunderstood me. I said that only for this debate. I didn't say who was better. I simply say that veteran fans have more credibility when it comes to MJ's voice.
If I all of sudden became a Prince fan and went to a forum where a discussion about a controversial voice would be held, I would admit from day one that my knowledge of Prince's voice would be much more limited than other fans' who had been listening to him for decades before the controversy. So indeed, my opinion would be less credible and I would not underestimate long date fans' knowledge about his voice.
SoCav
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To be fair, you were the one who came into a topic you said you were already done with, calling everybody obsessed and attention-seeking.
I personally do not think the mods are biased. It's a debate that has gotten heated several times. People have at times gone 'too far' on both sides. I have not agreed with every moderating decision myself either, but it does not exactly seem like the easiest topic to mod: most of the times a decision will make one side happy and the other unhappy. Overall I think the moderation has been fair.
I honestly do not understand that you believe that no one posts arguments here.
Well, here you go I guess. Why post something that you know will provoke people in a public forum if you do not want responses to your post though?
Talk behind your back? Unless I missed something, this is what happened here: you came into a topic you said you were already done with, saw a quote that you did not like and ridiculed the poster that posted the quote (you could have at the very least just picked on the quote itself instead, you know..). The poster responds to it, but because you already announced that you are leaving the topic it is suddenly talking behind your back?
Just a second ago you were complaining that doubters did not present arguments but now you are saying that you do not need to provide arguments yourself. Isn't the whole point of this topic to debate the issue and thus to provide arguments for our positions?
What I do agree with (apart from the fact that DBMR is great
) is that this thread can be one of the most frustrating ones to read. :lol: But in the end I do think several interesting things have come up in these 1800+ pages. If you see it differently and only think silly crap has been discussed here, then I am not really sure why you stuck with it for all these pages. If you want to leave the topic behind, sure - indeed, not a lot is happening at the moment. But why can't you give people who do want to continue to discuss the issue at the moment the right to do so without calling whatever they say 'silly crap' and sarcastically 'lol'-ing at them. How do you expect people to react when that's what you tell them?-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really do not believe that the doubter-believer division is simply one of old-new fandom. When this whole thing first went down I thought that could have something to do with it as well, but I quickly lost that believe when I saw several die-hard long-term fans, whose fandom I would never ever doubt (no pun intended) on the opposite side of the debate.
Of course I do agree with you that it takes some time to deeply familiarize yourself with a singer's voice, to get to know every single nuance of their vocal style. But, and I do not mean this to be offensive, the differences between the Cascio voice and MJ's voice are so large that I do not believe that one has to be a fan for a very long time in order to tell the difference.
To throw out another perhaps controversial statement (again, this is simply how I see it), I have really come to believe that whether people believe these tracks to be authentic or not comes down to a combination between some form of musicality/voice recognition, people's motivations (e.g., do they really have a strong desire to believe it is Michael/simply enjoy the release or are they okay with doubting the issue?), and susceptibility to authority and majority arguments (I do not just mean the most obvious candidate for the former, the Estate statement).
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StellaJackson
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Well I think it is true that it is easier to accept that it is Michael than the songs are fake. I wish I believed they are real for that very reason. It would be a whole lot easier. But I cant deny what my ears and knowledge tell me.
Is any believer going to accept my challenge? If you are 100% confident that the vocals are Michael's then you must have a good explanation. Once you've done that we can move onto the accent. Then the vibrato. Then the snorts. Then the breaths. Then the lack of identifiable habits. Then the writing. Then we can go to town on the copyright registrations.
Whatever one believes, it can't be denied that there are issues with these songs. There are aspects that do not match Michael's voice. They match Jason Cupeta exactly. Now those who believe it is Michael must obviously have a different explanation to that. Even if you think those things don't match Jason, it must still be admitted that they don't match Michael as we've heard him before. Therefore there has to be an explanation. It isn't by magic that his accent and pronounciation etc is so different. So what is the explanation? We've shown how melodyne can not do this to Michael's voice. We know they were recorded on good equipment, not that that would make any difference anyway. We've seen Michael singing in all kind of conditions and in all kinds of health and he doesn't sound like that. Even Hollywood Tonight, which had the vocals messed with considerably, doesn't sound anything like that. So what is the explanation?
Ivodt: why do you want the songs released when you can already hear them all and there are better and less divisive songs out there?
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BUMPER SNIPPET
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I agree with you, however I was just talking about credibility. Of course that one doesn't need to be a long time fan to hear the difference, however, a long time fan has had more time to pay attention to all aspects of MJ's voice. that's the part of the credibility I was referring to, no matter on which side those fans are. But from my experience, I have rarely seen longtime hardcore fans believeing thyat those tracks are authentic. All of them say that something is off.
BUMPER SNIPPET
Guests
What an enlighting post. Now all of sudden thanks to these strong arguments I hear MJ on the Cascio tracks. This post was so helpful.
qbee
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Mod Note
Ok there were no reports come in from doubters or believers on some offensive posts . I really don't feel like deleting the posts and 3 pages of replies. What i will do is post a reminder in this thread to both doubters and believers. Please discuss the topic without personally or collectively insulting members who don't agree with your views on this topic .. furthermore Do NOT come into this thread for the sole purpose to bash or insult the members who are debating in here .. That is the purpose of this thread to provide a place for members to discuss and debate this topic. If you don't like this topic or dont wish to particpate, then kindly do not post in this thread. Several rules and guidelines have been broken. So just to refresh every ones memory, becuase I know you have all taken the time to read the rules and guidline for posting on MJJC... Right :scratch:
Also members who post in this thread on a regular basis know that posts are not deleted or edited in this thread for the view anyone holds on the casico tracks. It all about respecting one another, not the views you may or may not have. I know becuase I moderate over 90% myself in this thread. I do my best to be fair minded to all who post in here and I know the staff who also moderates in here try to do the same.
Thanks for you cooperation of the above .. pleae stay on topic and bee nice
Remember we all love Michael no matter what our view on this topic is ...
Ok there were no reports come in from doubters or believers on some offensive posts . I really don't feel like deleting the posts and 3 pages of replies. What i will do is post a reminder in this thread to both doubters and believers. Please discuss the topic without personally or collectively insulting members who don't agree with your views on this topic .. furthermore Do NOT come into this thread for the sole purpose to bash or insult the members who are debating in here .. That is the purpose of this thread to provide a place for members to discuss and debate this topic. If you don't like this topic or dont wish to particpate, then kindly do not post in this thread. Several rules and guidelines have been broken. So just to refresh every ones memory, becuase I know you have all taken the time to read the rules and guidline for posting on MJJC... Right :scratch:
Also members who post in this thread on a regular basis know that posts are not deleted or edited in this thread for the view anyone holds on the casico tracks. It all about respecting one another, not the views you may or may not have. I know becuase I moderate over 90% myself in this thread. I do my best to be fair minded to all who post in here and I know the staff who also moderates in here try to do the same.
Thanks for you cooperation of the above .. pleae stay on topic and bee nice
Remember we all love Michael no matter what our view on this topic is ...
Garden
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@Stella. Hi! I can agree with many things you say but this : "We've shown how melodyne can not do this to Michael's voice" I am not sure. Of course it does not have to call melodyne... there are other tools and they maybe don't have the name JM.
Not really want to come in the Debate, just saying 1 thing.
Just want peace in here, so I leave already.
@Qbee :
Not really want to come in the Debate, just saying 1 thing.
Just want peace in here, so I leave already.
@Qbee :
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BUMPER SNIPPET
Guests
Melodyne or another tool, why would anyone accelerate the supposed MJ's natural soft vibrato to obtain a non natural "Speedy Gonzales" one?
Garden
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Bumper, t h a t is the thing number 1 that I struggle with before everything else in this matter : "How (and why) did that vibrato happen, where does it come from, why is it there?"
(Note to everyone : please no goat pics again)
Edit : It's a while ago now... but suddenly I remember why I did not agree with everything that's said here about the vibrato : when I listened closer to the word "c-r-a-z-y" in BN I had a very strong impression that this could not be untouched voice, there has been a tool used. I think it happens that such tools are used in studio's, I think I heard something like that with other singers... But I don't like it.
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BUMPER SNIPPET
Guests
Well there aren't many solutions.
1. Either all of sudden MJ's vibrato has become faster (only on those 12 songs)
2. They accelerated it for fun.
3. Or, it is not MJ but someone who can imitate some aspects of MJ's voice, but unable to imitate other aspects like the vibrato.
p.s. Promise, no goat pictures. However, I have another picture
[youtube]tuhRhFyu-Bs[/youtube]
SoCav
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But the reason we discuss Melodyne is because Teddy Riley specifically said the voice sounds different because of Melodyne.
He said that because they had to correct the pitch for some parts, the vibrato emerged as an artifact. This does not make sense. Yes, Melodyne does leave artifacts (pretty ugly ones imo), but not a vibrato like the one on the Cascio tracks. This video has been posted here several times, because this clip really shows what heavy Melodyning sounds like.
You can clearly still hear Michael's voice and it sounds nothing like the voice on the Cascio tracks. And keep in mind that this example is an excessive case of Melodyning - the vocals were altered to fit a completely new vocal melody, which is obviously a more extreme form of editing than just correcting the pitch of a few off-key notes.
To give an example from the 'Michael' album: Melodyne was also used on the ad-libs of (I Like) The Way You Love Me, right before the song ends. There is no trace of a weird vibrato and the voice still sounds like Michael.
Even if you would believe Teddy's claim that pitch-correcting with Melodyne causes a vibrato like the one on the Cascio tracks (which is just not true), it still does not make sense. If Teddy indeed had to correct the pitch, isn't it weird that we only hear the artifacts caused by this correction at the end of several notes (exactly where a vibrato would naturally emerge). That would mean that Michael would have the correct pitch initially, but then suddenly stray off-key mid-note. Wouldn't it be more likely that the whole note would be off, and that we would thus hear the weird vibrato on the whole note, instead?
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Garden
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Thank you SoCav. Yes that reasoning makes sense but I don't think TR has said everything... maybe for reasons he mentioned only Melodyne... this is only what I think. For me, whether they used other voice(s) or not, still that vibrato in "c r a z y" is not an untouched vibrato in my strong opinion. If pure human voice can sound like that, well then I am an alien.
PS : a (long) time ago followed some tools-discussions on max jax, there was talk of more than melodyne but my memory is not very strong, well, I did not get much wiser from it, except I think there was no full certainty neither ways what it all is.
PS : a (long) time ago followed some tools-discussions on max jax, there was talk of more than melodyne but my memory is not very strong
, well, I did not get much wiser from it, except I think there was no full certainty neither ways what it all is.
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dam2040
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Should the Michael album have been called something else? Because to me, they were not thinking about Michael at all. His style, his way of work. It was a chance for grubby producers to do what THEY wanted to Michael's work. He wrote himself, 'melodyne never' on a piece of paper at his home. If we can see that, then surely the producers who worked with him knew that. Now I know there are over 20 songs to be used for 'Bad' alone, it just infuriates me even more that they did spend the time to get Teddy Riley and all the Cascio's together to do whatever they did and divide the fan base. I'd rather they just left him alone. No new projects, nothing. Michael had his life taken away in the midst of a comeback. Not just a tour, but other projects too. Had he been here to promote the album, I'd love it because I'd know that he put his heart and soul into his work to make it last forever. It isn't the 'Michael' album by Michael Jackson, it's merely a chance for producers to do what they want and step on Michael like everyone else did, including his family.
SoCav
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Personally, I think a pitched up Jason Malachi sounds like that. To me it sounds like a slightly faster (due to pitching up the vocals) version of the vibrato that is a part of his own work as well.Thank you SoCav. Yes that reasoning makes sense but I don't think TR has said everything... maybe for reasons he mentioned only Melodyne... this is only what I think. For me, whether they used other voice(s) or not, still that vibrato in "c r a z y" is not an untouched vibrato in my strong opinion. If pure human voice can sound like that, well then I am an alien.
PS : a (long) time ago followed some tools-discussions on max jax, there was talk of more than melodyne but my memory is not very strong
But even if you do not believe that vibrato is (relatively) untouched, it still does not make sense: it is of course possible to add a digital vibrato to vocals, but why would they do that? Michael has a beautiful natural vibrato. And again, even if they would have done it for some reason, why would Teddy have blamed their attempts at pitch-correcting with Melodyne for the crappy vibrato, rather than just being honest and saying that they added in a vibrato?
StellaJackson
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The most logical reason for the vibrato sounding a) not like Michael and b) just like Jason is because it is Jason, especially when you factor in every other match and all the other circumstances. It should be obvious.
Also, Teddy Riley lied about melodyne. The songs he worked on (Monster, Breaking News and Burn 2Nite) sound exactly the same, complete with vibrato, before he touched them. We can hear this from the files that were on the hard drive collected from Eddie Cascio in July 2010.
Also, Teddy Riley lied about melodyne. The songs he worked on (Monster, Breaking News and Burn 2Nite) sound exactly the same, complete with vibrato, before he touched them. We can hear this from the files that were on the hard drive collected from Eddie Cascio in July 2010.
Paw
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I think one of the reasons that fans focus on vibrato is 3T's suggestion.
The vibrato is really processed.It's something like robot sound which is not natural.
Yep,you can say JM (I mean Jason Malachi)'s singing voice and Cascio track singer's singing voice have something in common.They have some similarities on some points,but not the same as a whole,even they are different in most parts.
Cascio track singer has more techniques which was accumulated from longtime professionally singing than JM (still Jason Malachi) whose singing techniques are nearly zero.JM don't even know how to properly distribute breath when singing.
BTW,you can not gain the techniques through studio magic.
The vibrato is really processed.It's something like robot sound which is not natural.
Yep,you can say JM (I mean Jason Malachi)'s singing voice and Cascio track singer's singing voice have something in common.They have some similarities on some points,but not the same as a whole,even they are different in most parts.
Cascio track singer has more techniques which was accumulated from longtime professionally singing than JM (still Jason Malachi) whose singing techniques are nearly zero.JM don't even know how to properly distribute breath when singing.
BTW,you can not gain the techniques through studio magic.
SoCav
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If you pitch it down it sounds like JM's vibrato to me. Obviously pitching up the vocals (and thereby increasing the tempo) will make the vibrato sound unnaturally fast.
I do not agree with the latter, because they are extremely similar to me. I do wonder where, on the flip side, you see the similarities with Michael's voice?
I have heard other people talk about a difference in technique as well, but have never gotten a response when I asked for examples. Can you perhaps give specific examples of a part of a Cascio track that you think JM could not have sung?
And also, studio magic can of course improve the way a singer's technique comes across. And I am not even talking about pitch-correction tools like Melodyne. If you have a lot of takes to work with (and we know that the Cascio vocals were created using a lot of vocal takes), then you can simply select the very best bits and pieces.
To give a personal example: I actually worked on a song once with someone who was not a very good singer. I recorded about 6 takes of them singing the song and cut & pasted the best parts together, sometimes using single words from different takes. They also had trouble with one part of the song, so I recorded that part several times more after I tried to explain how I would like them to sing it and until we got the desired result. I also corrected the tempo in a few places by cutting and pasting and by time-stretching the vocals here and there. We ended up with a vocal take that sounded much better than what the person would be able to do in one single take. The person actually let friends listen to it and they could not believe that it was actually them singing it because they thought it was too good
lol. So, I think studio magic can help the way a singer's technique comes across a lot.Garden
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OK, let's say it's JM's vibrato, I will not fight that opinion. But why does it sound so C3PO and R2D2 -like? (remember those 2 cute robots?)