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Michael - The Great Album Debate

StellaJackson said:
He has nothing, which is why he was able to show nothing and clear the whole mess up.
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So you know him?

Have you asked him what he has and doesn't have?

Have you checked his house for photos/videos?

I don't think so.


Maybe what he has shows MJ in a way that he might not want to be seen he might not want to share personal and private photos like Frank did. No one really knows.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
So you know him?

Have you asked him what he has and doesn't have?

Have you checked his house for photos/videos?

I don't think so.


Maybe what he has shows MJ in a way that he might not want to be seen he might not want to share personal and private photos like Frank did. No one really knows.
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No but I have common sense. They went on Oprah specifically to clear this issue up yet they failed to show anything. If he really cared about Michael then he would have shown proof if he had it in order to stop the controversy and the damage it was doing to Michael and to the music. And how is an out take from a song or a hand written lyric something which shows MJ in a private light? Everybody else was able to provide such information.

There is absolutely no logical reason for them to hold back on any proof, considering the damage that these songs have done.
 
StellaJackson said:
No but I have common sense. They went on Oprah specifically to clear this issue up yet they failed to show anything. If he really cared about Michael then he would have shown proof if he had it in order to stop the controversy and the damage it as doing to Michael and to the music. And how is an out take from a song or a hand written lyric something which shows MJ in a private light? Everybody else was able to provide such information.

There is absolutely no logical reason for them to hold back on any proof, considering the damage that these songs have done.
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"Maybe what he has shows MJ in a way that he might not want to be seen".

Michael Jackson might have been in a way that he would not want us to know but then again that is my theory.

No one knows what he has.


Another theory which I believe might make more sense is when he sold the material he had to the MJ estate/Sony he signed a contract where every single thing he worked with MJ would belong to the estate and Sony and he would not be able to disclose.


But then again I don't wanna SPECULATE anything.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
"Maybe what he has shows MJ in a way that he might not want to be seen".

Michael Jackson might have been in a way that he would not want us to know but then again that is my theory.

No one knows what he has.


Another theory which I believe might make more sense is when he sold the material he had to the MJ estate/Sony he signed a contract where every single thing he worked with MJ would belong to the estate and Sony and he would not be able to disclose.


But then again I don't wanna SPECULATE anything.
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How does an outtake of Michael speaking about the song recording process show Michael in a light that he doesn't want to be seen in? And if Sony/Estate obtained proof from him when purchasing the songs, it makes even less sense not to disclose it when it was their own product and reputation at stake.

As it happens though, they didn't obtain anything. I don't need to speculate. All Sony got from Eddie was a hard drive containing 12 songs. That's it. I can tell you that for a fact. There is nothing outside of those 12 demo tracks, which have been heard in their entirety, that came from Eddie Cascio.
 
StellaJackson said:
How does an outtake of Michael speaking about the song recording process show Michael in a light that he doesn't want to be seen in? And if Sony/Estate obtained proof from him when purchasing the songs, it makes even less sense not to disclose it when it was their own product and reputation at stake.

As it happens though, they didn't obtain anything. I don't need to speculate. All Sony got from Eddie was a hard drive containing 12 songs. That's it. I can tell you that for a fact. There is nothing outside of those 12 demo tracks, which have been heard in their entirety, that came from Eddie Cascio.
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We know that there were outtakes with MJ talking?

We've only heard the official tracks and some of us heard some illegally obtained demos that's it.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
We know that there were outtakes with MJ talking?

We've only heard the official tracks and some of us heard some illegally obtained demos that's it.
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It's only logical that if MJ recorded 12 songs then there would be out takes of him including asking for another take etc. In fact it was the lack of that kind of thing that was raised at the listening session. These type of out takes can be found for many of Michael's songs. With an entire album's worth of material there should be a wealth of audio work tapes. Some people have heard everything that Eddie Cascio sold to Sony.
 
what do you mean "showed mj in a light he didn't want to be seen in"? If that was a concern, cascio wouldn't have included stories about mj taking drugs in his book.

i don't even care. i don't care about the cascios at ALL. i really don't. they can do whatever the hell they want. all i care about is fake songs on this michael jackson album. they're not even GOOD fakes, i mean come on, i don't even understand this.
 
Common sense?

-Eddie has proof of MJ singing and recording the songs (videos, photos, work tapes,...)

-SONY & Estate despite Eddie's proof hire an audio forensic to tell them if it is MJ's voice???


To me it would be like showing to SONY & Estate (but not to the public, go figure why) this:

[youtube]tKPoWoMupbE[/youtube]

[youtube]CeitXK1jKaw&feature=related[/youtube]

SONY purchases the tracks. And hire a forensic despite all the proof that Eddie has got???

Conclusion, they prefer paying high sums of money to the forensics than showing us the proof for free in order to stop the controversy.
Here is where fans should unite and act as one. No matter what they believe. Fans should be more demanding when it comes to MJ than simply defending specualations and theories why the proof would be held back. We've seen MJ with serious scar on his right leg, we've seen MJ in the ambulance heading towards the hospital, we've heard MJ while he was sedated, and what not... and we can't see MJ recording 12 songs???

Common sense is to act as one and say stop to the releases as long as there is no proof regardless of MJ's level of friendship he used to have with people. Friendship proves nothing else than a relationship. It does not give anything corroborating regarding the authenticity of the voice.

Again, no one is questioning Eddie's friendship with Michael, but the authenticity of the voice on those tracks once MJ passed away and those songs released over his dead body without a single proof.
 
The only purpose I saw for them goin on Oprah as a whole family with private videos and private memories of their friendship with MJ was to show that they can be trustworthy and to get some type of credibilty for these tracks because they knew him. Because that's all they did inreguards to these tracks, really. Which did not in any way prove a damn thing. It was sort of like a smoke and mirrors sort of thing with Teddy Riley jumping in at the end lookin all uncomfortable. lol It was all done to show they were all like a family and so non of them could do such a thing to MJs legacy. Sorry, but that's how it came out to me when I saw that. So I can't really seperate the tracks from the Cascio's. And why should I? Eddie was the one that sold the songs and his family rallied around him after words. SMH
 
When it comes down to business, fans should be aware that emotions such as friendship should not be used as a proof.

When it comes down to business, fans should act as businessmen too. In other words, when something is presented to us, instead of accepting from anyone talking the talk, we should first demand from them to walk the walk.
Why? Because it is at the same time in MJ's legacy best interest, in our best interest to have proven authentic MJ and also in the interest of the whole fan community. I'd prefer hundreds of times arguing in a good mood with fans which MJ's song is the best than arguing which song is authentic and speculate on how-why-where-when-...he or his soundalike recorded a bunch of songs that we had no prior knowledge about nor any corroborating proof than playing on fans' emotions with pictures, videos, accounts, ... of their friendship.

Put yourself in the shoes of a businessman and ask yourself whether you'd buy 12 songs for which you would have to pay forensics to tell you who's singing them rather than asking other proofs.
 
azsummergirl said:
what do you mean "showed mj in a light he didn't want to be seen in"? If that was a concern, cascio wouldn't have included stories about mj taking drugs in his book.

i don't even care. i don't care about the cascios at ALL. i really don't. they can do whatever the hell they want. all i care about is fake songs on this michael jackson album. they're not even GOOD fakes, i mean come on, i don't even understand this.
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OMG it was just a theory just like this one, I never said I confirmed anything.

Plus Eddie and Frank might have different views on how to share MJ's private life with the world.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Common sense?

-Eddie has proof of MJ singing and recording the songs (videos, photos, work tapes,...)

-SONY & Estate despite Eddie's proof hire an audio forensic to tell them if it is MJ's voice???


To me it would be like showing to SONY & Estate (but not to the public, go figure why) this:

[youtube]tKPoWoMupbE[/youtube]

[youtube]CeitXK1jKaw&feature=related[/youtube]

SONY purchases the tracks. And hire a forensic despite all the proof that Eddie has got???

Conclusion, they prefer paying high sums of money to the forensics than showing us the proof for free in order to stop the controversy.
Here is where fans should unite and act as one. No matter what they believe. Fans should be more demanding when it comes to MJ than simply defending specualations and theories why the proof would be held back. We've seen MJ with serious scar on his right leg, we've seen MJ in the ambulance heading towards the hospital, we've heard MJ while he was sedated, and what not... and we can't see MJ recording 12 songs???

Common sense is to act as one and say stop to the releases as long as there is no proof regardless of MJ's level of friendship he used to have with people. Friendship proves nothing else than a relationship. It does not give anything corroborating regarding the authenticity of the voice.

Again, no one is questioning Eddie's friendship with Michael, but the authenticity of the voice on those tracks once MJ passed away and those songs released over his dead body without a single proof.
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Think about this how Sony Music would, If someone came up to you and said I have 12 Michael Jackson songs will you believe them?
Of coarse not that is why Sony Music and the estate were smart and hired an expert for help.
 
^^An expert whose report we have never seen but hey lets keep going round and round on this.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
Think about this how Sony Music would, If someone came up to you and said I have 12 Michael Jackson songs will you believe them?
Of coarse not that is why Sony Music and the estate were smart and hired an expert for help.
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Smart? You buy tracks that you need experts for? Is that smart? Knowing that voice authenticity test is not an exact science, I wouldn't call that smart.

And on the other hand, hiring experts means automatically that Eddie has no single proof.

So, all comes down to the conclusion that Sony needs experts, Eddie has no proof and fans have no choice but trust their words based on non-scientific experiments from whom we have even not seen a single line of report.

That's why I am saying that tha fans shouldn't be that easily led into their game. We should act as one and be independant of their "talking the talk methods", for Michael's sake, for our sake, and for the general peace of mind.
 
going_in_circles.jpg
 
And besides, we all know someone in the Jab Me camp still thinks about it an awful lot considering how fast comparison clips are still disappearing from websites.
 
Arklove said:
Moved on with his life? Doesn't have time to follow the controversy?
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he has a daughter now. When you have a child you see that your priorities change a lot. We are also 1+ year into the controversy, actually it's healthy to not follow it that long and move on with life.
 
ivy said:
he has a daughter now. When you have a child you see that your priorities change a lot. We are also 1+ year into the controversy, actually it's healthy to not follow it that long and move on with life.
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How much time would it really take to show some proof? He bothered to appear on Oprah, why did he not show anything at that time? Where are those worktapes of which Roger Friedman said that they exist and would come out one day?

This controversy could have been over a long time ago if he would show the proof he claims to have. In my opinion, his silence says a lot.

Putting myself in his shoes and assuming for a second that the songs are authentic: If I saw that the songs I worked on with my friend and mentor created such a division among the fan base he cared about so much, I certainly would take out a couple of days to get material ready and present it to the fanbase. For the fans, and both his reputation and my own. How could I just move on like nothing ever happened without resolving the issue?
 
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SoCav said:
How much time would it really take to show some proof? He bothered to appear on Oprah, why did he not show anything at that time? Where are those worktapes of which Roger Friedman said that they exist and would come out one day?

Putting myself in his shoes: If I saw that the songs I worked on with my friend and mentor created such a division among the fan base he cared about so much, I certainly would take out a couple of days to get material ready and present it to the fanbase. For the fans and both his reputation and my own. How could I just move on without resolving the issue?
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have you ever felt that you don't need to explain yourself? Have you ever felt the accusations are so wrong even comical?

For example you might know that I do a lot of case updates. There are some people out there that accuse me of being in the payroll of MJ Estate. Now I can take time to show it's not true or I can choose to not spend a single second on it because the claims are just plain ridiculous. Do you know what I do? I don't care. I'm not going to prove anything to random people who create fantasies. It just doesn't worth my time. After a while you don't even hear that being said.

You are not really putting yourself in his shoes. Try to imagine that you have a 25 year friendship with Michael, you know what he means to you, you know what you mean to him. Imagine that you are inside content and secure about who you are and what you do. Then imagine that people that has never even met you started to accuse you. Then tell me would you feel the need to defend yourself or simply don't have the need because you are secure and content about your relationship.
 
Again, we're not talking about a RELATIONSHIP, we're talking about the details of 12 mysterious songs dropped by Eddie Cascio and never heard from again. Michael sounds like a different person, but I guess it's just wise to move on and don't ask questions. Ok.
 
ivy said:
have you ever felt that you don't need to explain yourself? Have you ever felt the accusations are so wrong even comical?
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Clearly though, he did feel like he needed to explain himself. After all, he decided to go on Oprah with Teddy Riley to discuss it. It's just that, on that occassion, he did not show any proof that the recordings actually took place.

Also, Joe Vogel contacted him for an interview about his experiences working on the songs with Michael. Not to 'explain himself' with regards to the authenticity or to share details about Michael's private life, simply to share his unique experience of working with Michael on those songs. As we all know, he refused that as well.

For example you might know that I do a lot of case updates. There are some people out there that accuse me of being in the payroll of MJ Estate. Now I can take time to show it's not true or I can choose to not spend a single second on it because the claims are just plain ridiculous.
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I do not think the scenario is really comparable, because in the situation of the Cascio tracks, Michael's reputation is also at stake. Imagine again that you are Eddie and that these songs are authentic. You hear a sizeable part of the fanbase claim that the vocals are not authentic, that they are sung by an impersonator who is notorious for trying to copy your friend's style.

Would you honestly not want to set the record straight? If not for yourself, then for your friend, who cannot speak for himself anymore?

You are not really putting yourself in his shoes. Try to imagine that you have a 25 year friendship with Michael, you know what he means to you, you know what you mean to him. Imagine that you are inside content and secure about who you are and what you do. Then imagine that people that has never even met you started to accuse you. Then tell me would you feel the need to defend yourself or simply don't have the need because you are secure and content about your relationship.
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But you also know what he means to his fans, and what his fans meant to him. And how important his artistic legacy was to him.

I honestly cannot imagine that you would not want to set the record straight, especially if you supposedly have the material that could end the controversy immediately.
 
Again you aren't understanding what I'm saying. What if Eddie is secure and content that the songs are legit and therefore do not feel the need to defend himself?

You are approaching this from your perspective which is the songs are "questionable", what if from his perspective that the songs are 100% legit that such claims do not even require to be acknowledged?

Btw - in the past I talked to Frank about some criticism towards his book. At that time he told me he didn't read such comments and Michael taught them not to. He said that Michael did not read what is being written about him and if he (and anyone did) it would make them go crazy. I don't know if it applies to Eddie but if it does he might be not reading and not caring about anything being written about him.


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Clearly though, he did feel like he needed to explain himself. After all, he decided to go on Oprah with Teddy Riley to discuss it.
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I don't agree about the Oprah interview. everything rumored said that it was set up by other people and not Cascio's. I'm not sure if they were a willing participant. secondly that show was about their 25 year relationship plus promotion of the album. It wasn't an authenticity debate.

I do not think the scenario is really comparable, because in the situation of the Cascio tracks, Michael's reputation is also at stake.
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Michael's reputation is not at stake. He's dead. If the songs turn out to be fake it would have nothing on Michael. It would be other people faking it.

Plus in my example MJ Estate reputation would also be at stake as they are equally accused. Still it's not a factor for me to entertain fantasies of some people.

Realistically speaking Cascio debate is limited to fan forums and a limited number of people still discussing that issue.
 
ivy said:
Again you aren't understanding what I'm saying. What if Eddie is secure and content that the songs are legit and therefore do not feel the need to defend himself?

You are approaching this from your perspective which is the songs are "questionable", what if from his perspective that the songs are 100% legit that such claims do not even require to be acknowledged?
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But the claims were acknowledged, on Oprah. You are saying that the interview was about the family's relationship with Michael and the promotion of the album. That's true, but there was a section where Teddy Riley joined in that was specifically about the authenticity of these songs.

They have also acknowledged that the voice sounds different, especially Teddy. Why not go all out and show actual proof that the songs are real?

Btw - in the past I talked to Frank about some criticism towards his book. At that time he told me he didn't read such comments and Michael taught them not to. He said that Michael did not read what is being written about him and if he (and anyone did) it would make them go crazy. I don't know if it applies to Eddie but if it does he might be not reading and not caring about anything being written about him.
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Clearly, he is aware of the controversy though. He first of all knows about the internal situation surrounding these tracks before the album was released. Secondly, he was confronted with the authenticity question on Oprah, so he knows that this is something that people care about.

Michael's reputation is not at stake. He's dead. If the songs turn out to be fake it would have nothing on Michael. It would be other people faking it.
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Yes. But I am approaching this as if the songs are real, as Eddie claims. If I am Eddie, would I really want a large part of Michael's fanbase to think that three songs he was proud of are sung by an impersonator, when I can prove in an instant that they are absolutely authentic? Knowing how important his fans and his artistic legacy were to Michael, I cannot imagine that I would not feel responsible to set the record straight.
 
SoCav said:
If I am Eddie, would I really want a large part of Michael's fanbase to think that three songs he was proud of are sung by an impersonator,
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define large.

how many people bought the album versus how many people didn't.
how many people discuss this issue versus how many people don't/
 
ivy said:
define large.

how many people bought the album versus how many people didn't.
how many people discuss this issue versus how many people don't/
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Well, just take a look at that poll here on MJJC that was created after Breaking News was streamed. I do not remember how many fans voted, but it was over a 100 at least. That seems like a very decent sample size for a survey among hardcore fans. The majority of the people voting thought it was not Michael or that the vocals were not fully Michael's. Only a minority thought that there was nothing wrong with the vocals.

Then you also have the petition against the Cascio songs signed by several fanclubs.

Clearly, this whole situation caused a rift in the fan community. Apart from that, people who have worked with Michael are also divided about the songs, with some claiming the vocals are authentic (Estate statement), and others, including his family members, saying that they are fake.

This is clearly not a case where a tiny minority of fans is making some kind of outrageous claim - if that had been the case, then I could have understood that he might have ignored it.
 
Michael Jackson's reputation will always be at stake. How is this any different than when fans go up against the Aaron Carter issue, or the Matt Fiddes, Scott Thorson and other such vultures??

We're no different when we're defending his musical legacy.

Some people feel the need to discuss this issue incessantly. Some don't. I don't go on and on about EVERY single issue that involves MJ. We all have lives, responsibilities. I admit, I'm sick of it, I just want to give it all up and never discuss it again. I know a lot of fans who flat out believe these songs are fake, yet never, ever speak out about it on a forum. If I know a lot of fans, then it's safe to say that SoCav, and Bumper, and Love is Magical, and Jesta, Pentum, azsummergirl, etc etc, ALSO know a lot of fans who never talk about the issue, yet are still doubters. And it multiplies and multiplies. Who cares if people discuss the issue or not? The reality is that the issue still exists.

The amount of fans who bought the album really have nothing to do with whether someone believes the songs are real or not. I bought the album, and I know a lot of other doubters bought the album as well. Not ALL doubters boycotted. Actually, I think a lot of fans who doubt supported the album anyway.

Yes, indeed, Eddie has moved on with his life, because, IMO, he has to. He's got nothing to show. So, of course, it's futile.
 
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elapentela said:
I don't think Eddie is hiding anything. My theory and hope is that he moved on with his life and just doesn't have the time to follow the controversy. I'm positive he will present the proofs when he will have the need for it. For example as a defendant in the court case if someone would charge him legally with the fraud.

I spoke with MJ about Eddie's future as a musician on 3 different occasions when I met him during my business trips in Ireland and US (LA and Las Vegas). Every time he sounded very enthusiastic and even proud when he talked about Eddie's progress in developing his producing skills.
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You spoke with Michael Jackson?..:woohoo::D

I don't have to know every detail you spoke about (but of course, if you want to share I wouldn't mind..:D), but what I'm interested to know is how the subject came to Eddie. I believe you when you say he was enthousiastic and proud about Eddie. Eddie also worked with some impressive names (as far as I can read on the net) in the past and was a promising producer (although I have no idea what he does now...enjoying fatherhood, I guess). But did he start the subject or did you ask?

Maybe you can tell a bit more about how that convo went?
 
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