Michael - The Great Album Debate

thank you to those who responded to my questions.

Bumper Snippet, i don't have strong opinions on this either way. although i have been listening a lot to MJ's music, i still humbly submit that i am no expert. i may have said to myself that there was something different to those vocals, especially if i compare them to Best of Joy or his older songs, but i guess i finally put it down to over-production from original demos that were very bare. i've gone back and forth on this a lot but for now, i choose to 'keep the faith' until concrete proof shows up.

Dangerous, 2000 Watts, Shout, are quite over-produced, yet they are undeniably MJ. Although some might have been surprised when hearing those three songs for the first time, they never raise such a level of suspicion as the Cascio tracks.

From the moment I hear the supposed MJ's voice that I have difficulties to recognize and from that same moment I blame it on the over-production or anything else regarding the oddity, I simply consider the situation as abnormal. I mean what is the logic behind "doesn't sound like MJ" = "over-production" = "ok it's MJ, but it doesn't sound like him"?

Over-production or not, the result is the same = doesn't sound like MJ. The responsible ones have played with MJ's legacy by inculding unrecognizable vocals on an official product supposed to be penned by MJ, yet excused as over-produced, copy-pasted, over-processed, and what not material without a single physical evidence. On top of that they hired forensics. I mean, come on.

What kind of business fool would include MJ's supposed songs on an official album when needing forensics (due to the lack of physical proof and witnesses) to tell them whether it's him or not?


i think you were the one who talked about 'dialect.' when i read that post many pages back, i kinda understood what you meant, but that was in relation to another unreleased track from the Cascios - i think it was Carry On or Stay, whatever its true title is. it felt weird listening to that because it didn't sound like MJ, not the voice, not the way he pronounced words. but that song is supposed to be in a set with these other 3 songs, so - what to think? don't know. i am just confused.

I also provided clear pronunciation of the words in the three released songs.

The compromising words are the words containing -ALK- in the middle of the words.

For example words such as:

walk, talk, stalk, etc, Michael Jackson pronounces them in all of his songs according to the official standard US/UK English as suggested by the dictionaries and English US/UK phonetics.

The Cascio singer in the song Monster does not pronounce them the way they are supposed to be pronounced officially. The word "stalk"

in "Monster" and in "Breaking News" sound closer to the pronunciation of the word "stuck" (short vowel /st?k/) than to the word

"stalk" (long vowel /st??k/). It is so subtle that even if MJ wanted to imitate another dialect I highly doubt he'd pronounce it "stuck" instead of usually pronouncing it the way he always had "stalk". Apart from the odd voice timbre, lack of husk/grit, shaky vibrato, snort, this weird pronunciation is a red flag for me, and it has always been from the very moment I heard it on Breaking News and on Monster.

I am not American. Neither do I speak different American dialects, so I have never forced anyone to believe my point of view. However, not only did I study world dialectology and general linguistics, I am also used to different accents and pronunciations thanks to my job position where I work with adult students from different backgrounds coming from all over the world speaking different languages with different accents. So teaching phonetics of the English language is something I do on the daily basis. And what I hear on the Cascio songs with some of those words (waiting, stalking,...) is certainly not Michael Jackson's usual pronunciation. That's why I wanted to see the forensic's report so badly. But they've been hiding it as if it was a military highly confidential document.

Furthermore, out of curiosity I did a little research on the American dialects and not surprisingly I found out that the way the singer pronounces those words (waiting, stalking,..) has the same characteristics as the Maryland dialect.

Now, objectively speaking, can I be wrong? Yes. Why? Because I base my analysis on the singing voice which can alter the way some words are pronounced (although I doubt that the length of the vowel could lead to the pronunciation of a completely different vowel, ? vs ??, unless it is a dialectal characteristic.)

However, I do not base my opinion only on the pronunciation. This latter is just an auxiliary disturbing detail added to the elephant in the room: to me the most disturbing part is the voice (timbre) itself, it is un-Michael's. At some points it's disturbingly similar to MJ's voice, if not Michael's (copy-pasted?) and yet doesn't sound natural. Everything in the voice seems over- and under-exaggerated: yelps, gulps, vibrato, whiny voice, lack of power, gritless, sparkless, ... frankensteinesque.


i don't like the thought that Malachi is being given too much credit as a voice-alike. but more than anything else, it's really very hard to wrap my head around the possibility that they could do this to Michael and get away with it. (i know, i repeat myself) it happened with Milli Vanilli, but how can ANYONE even attempt to do that with the KOP?

Malachi is just a suspect. The Cascio singer does sound a lot like Malachi. Is it him? Well that's another thing to prove. In any case, when you gather all the characteristics of the Cascio's singer's voice and compare them to Malachi's, they have more in common than Michael's usual voice. Again, that's why I wanted so badly to read the forensic's report.

what has Michael ever done to the Cascio family all these years for him to get this from Eddie? and if it was just Eddie that's the villain and Sony and the Estate were just caught in his trap, wouldn't it serve them a lot better if they stood up and exposed the fraud instead of choosing to keep quiet?

Surely it is Eddie's word against everyone else's. He's apparently the only direct witness, but has no single corroborating element to prove it's MJ except his friendship.

And remember, no matter what pictures you see or books you read, you will never ever be able to know what really people's relationship was deep inside of them. Using Eddie's friendship with MJ is an argument that tries to emotionally move people and influence them in believing that Eddie could never do such a thing.

We should make distinction between the emotion and the fact. Friendship = emotion, I have no problems with that, neither did I claim that Eddie wasn't friend with MJ.

BUT, set aside their friendship and emotions that it can trigger in the eyes or hearts of the public, what FACT do I have from Eddie's recording sessions with Michael Jackson? Not a thing!

So basically, I have to forget about what I hear, persuade myself that I am unable to recognize Michael Jackson, and take Eddie's word at face value, not because of any corroborating physical proof, but because of their friendship???

To me accepting this sounds like falling in love with Eddie's and MJ's friendship story and in the name of that highly emotional story forget everything odd about that voice and forgive Eddie for providing such tracks to SONY.

Well, I am not falling for it. Friendship is one thing, MJ's voice and legacy is another.

some pages back, or on another related thread, i also remember asking about the wisdom of choosing to release these over the actual outtakes - undoubtedly pure, unadulterated MJ. and though that decision sounds fishy, there's no way i could get to the answers. it's a dead end, in several ways. as you say, they're all mute on the questions that need answering.

From what I have heard, those versions are even worse. They contain even more obvious rip-offs and copy-pastes from Invincible (sound effects from Threatened), Ghosts/2Bad screams, "what about us" ad-libs from Earth Song, etc.
 
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I know this might not be the place but can you guys tell me if I did good?
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Well done :)
 
thank you to those who responded to my questions.

Bumper Snippet, i don't have strong opinions on this either way. although i have been listening a lot to MJ's music, i still humbly submit that i am no expert. i may have said to myself that there was something different to those vocals, especially if i compare them to Best of Joy or his older songs, but i guess i finally put it down to over-production from original demos that were very bare. i've gone back and forth on this a lot but for now, i choose to 'keep the faith' until concrete proof shows up. i think you were the one who talked about 'dialect.' when i read that post many pages back, i kinda understood what you meant, but that was in relation to another unreleased track from the Cascios - i think it was Carry On or Stay, whatever its true title is. it felt weird listening to that because it didn't sound like MJ, not the voice, not the way he pronounced words. but that song is supposed to be in a set with these other 3 songs, so - what to think? don't know. i am just confused

The titles of the Cascio tracks are Breaking News, Keep Your Head Up, Monster from the album and the names of the other 9 songs that were sold to Sony are Stay, All I Need, Burn 2Nite, Black Widow, All Right, Soldier Boy, Fall In Love, Water and Ready 2 Win.
 
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Surely it is Eddie's word against everyone else's. He's apparently the only direct witness, but has no single corroborating element to prove it's MJ except his friendship.

And remember, no matter what pictures you see or books you read, you will never ever be able to know what really people's relationship was deep inside of them. Using Eddie's friendship with MJ is an argument that tries to emotionally move people and influence them in believing that Eddie could never do such a thing.

We should make distinction between the emotion and the fact. Friendship = emotion, I have no problems with that, neither did I claim that Eddie wasn't friend with MJ.

BUT, set aside their friendship and emotions that it can trigger in the eyes or hearts of the public, what FACT do I have from Eddie's recording sessions with Michael Jackson? Not a thing!

So basically, I have to forget about what I hear, persuade myself that I am unable to recognize Michael Jackson, and take Eddie's word at face value, not because of any corroborating physical proof, but because of their friendship???

To me accepting this sounds like falling in love with Eddie's and MJ's friendship story and in the name of that highly emotional story forget everything odd about that voice and forgive Eddie for providing such tracks to SONY.

Well, I am not falling for it. Friendship is one thing, MJ's voice and legacy is another.


You are very right bout that and when friendships get in the way of the music business it can become very dangerous as the person can act loyal to the celebrity's face but behind their back they do so much harm. Michael went through that so much in his life and it sucks that still in death its happening.
 
no opinion anymore, just questions :)

if those were fake, how could people get away with that legally?

About your question, this is what I have thought since day one: They can get away with it legally because the songs have a certain percentage of Michael singing in it. I am thinking here that a song technically does not have to be sung by a person 100% for it to be their song, so they are relying on a technicality to show the song is sung by Michael. They squashed some of Michael's vocals with another person and meshed them together--something like a tossed salad. That is why we hear pieces of Michael in it. I have no proof, but this is what I think, because no way would Sony take a song that is completely sung by another person and sell it as a Michael song. The legal ramifications would be too severe.

I think the songs were bought already in the tossed salad format, and they were worked on by Teddy.

The estate and Sony will say that they bought the songs and that the hired experts said it sounded like him and based on what the experts told them they made a decision to include the songs in the album. They will pass the blame onto the experts. If you recall the trial, didn't White try to change the whole protocol on how to use the drug in order to show that what Muarry did was not against the standard of care. Look at how Walgren had to go after him to make him tell the truth, and notice how the other expert gave a completely different protocol, so experts can be bought to say anything!!!
 
thanks, Bumper, for all the details you provided. i'm very interested in the pronunciation differences. being that I'm Asian, i'm learning from your sharing of your detailed studies, particularly in relation to these songs.

when i wrote about the Eddie-MJ friendship, it wasn't an appeal to the emotions. i was referring to values - loyalty, gratitude, indebtedness. IF JMalachi is involved, he's supposed to be a sheriff, and maybe a law enforcer breaking the law and participating in major fraud is not much of an issue anymore? it seems that values have gone out of fashion and maybe i'm being naive. but be that as it may, you're right - set all that aside and one is still left with there being absolutely no proof of the recording at the Cascios and no scientific evidence that should account for the vocal differences.


The titles of the Cascio tracks are Breaking News, Keep Your Head Up, Monster from the album and the names of the other 9 songs that were sold to Sony are Stay, All I Need, Burn 2Nite, Black Widow, All Right, Soldier Boy, Fall In Love, Water and Ready 2 Win.

thanks, Stella. very helpful...gotta organize :)

@Petrarose, your theory makes sense, but my overarching question then becomes 'why?' is it because there's not a single song recorded that's complete in and by itself? Bumper made mention of older tracks that have also been "produced" or tampered with, if you want to call it that.
 
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thanks, Bumper, for all the details you provided. i'm very interested in the pronunciation differences. being that I'm Asian, i'm learning from your sharing of your detailed studies, particularly in relation to these songs.

when i wrote about the Eddie-MJ friendship, it wasn't an appeal to the emotions. i was referring to values - loyalty, gratitude, indebtedness. IF JMalachi is involved, he's supposed to be a sheriff, and maybe a law enforcer breaking the law and participating in major fraud is not much of an issue anymore? it seems that values have gone out of fashion and maybe i'm being naive. but be that as it may, you're right - set all that aside and one is still left with there being absolutely no proof of the recording at the Cascios and no scientific evidence that should account for the vocal differences.




thanks, Stella. very helpful...gotta organize :)

@Petrarose, your theory makes sense, but my overarching question then becomes 'why?' is it because there's not a single song recorded that's complete in and by itself? Bumper made mention of older tracks that have also been "produced" or tampered with, if you want to call it that.

Michael documented, himself, every single project. I posted so many video snippets and photos of MJ recording in the studio in different eras, that it just doesn't make sense not having a single physical proof of 12 recorded songs with his friend Eddie.

Legally speaking they can get away with it because the Estate gave the approval that those tracks are sung by MJ.

Scientifically speaking their claim is purely theoretical, certainly not a fact. In science, untill you don't get a physical proof it remains only a theory. Forensic analysis is not reliable 100%, hence not a scientific fact, given the fact that the analysis cannot be corroborated by MJ himself or by the observation (videos showing MJ recording those songs or other corroborating elements.; friendship is not a corroborating element scientifically speaking).

So the three songs they put on the CD are sung by MJ, but only theoretically speaking...great job the Estate...NOT!

I just don't understand how some MJ fans can tolerate such a lack of professionalism coming from the Estate and SONY.

Shame on the Estate and SONY to rely on someone's friendship with MJ and (unnamed) forensic's opinion to release the tracks.
Shame on them to purely rely on the highly questioned theory.
Shame on them for not stepping forward to answer some questions.
 
i don't think the legal ramifications for Sony are substantial at all. it's not like we can actually do anything about it. they have the keys to the castle, they can pretty much do whatever they want. Whose going to stop them?

they pretty much pushed this as far as they possibly could: including tracks on an officially released album that are sung by a (pretty terrible) impersonator. red flags, all over the place, going on 2 years now. and we can't do anything about it. So it seems to me, they can pretty much throw their weight around any way they want, and never have to pay any consequences for it. $$$$ greedy sick :censored:
 
@Petrarose, your theory makes sense, but my overarching question then becomes 'why?' is it because there's not a single song recorded that's complete in and by itself? Bumper made mention of older tracks that have also been "produced" or tampered with, if you want to call it that.

It's hard to say how many complete songs and outtakes are in the vault. There are different rumors. We all heard how tens of songs were recorded by Michael, but didn't make the orginial tracklist. But, we don't know whether Michael recorded the entire songs, or just a couple verses, or just humming the melody.

Fact is songs that are completly sung by Michael Jackson are scarce, valuable and are in limited quantity. Sony's strategy is not to put out a great album (therefore exhasuting much of the scarce and limited materials), but to release an album that will sell reasonably in the most cost effective manner.

Sony did not market Michael as an album with unreleased Michael Jackson outtakes, but an album with songs that Michael worked on during the final years of his life. Sony marketed the album as Michael's final works. Remember that documentary in which the word "Michael's roadmap" was being used constantly. Some executives in their corner offices think Breaking News and Monster are more mareketable than any outtakes from the 80's as they sound "trendier". Also, the outtakes could still be saved for special anniverary edition package for years to come.
 
Sorry for not being able to contribute in a while, I've been busy with college work and having a four-week long chest virus. To make sure that my presence isn't missed for the time being, I'll post the links to my first major film project. It's irrelevant to this, but this place needs a good laugh sometimes, and this project is laughably bad.

So, in case you need some ironic laughs:

Act I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cJ8Q59zyzA
Act II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaeS9JcliO0
Act III: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgBraG36cOY
 
i don't think the legal ramifications for Sony are substantial at all. it's not like we can actually do anything about it. they have the keys to the castle, they can pretty much do whatever they want. Whose going to stop them?

they pretty much pushed this as far as they possibly could: including tracks on an officially released album that are sung by a (pretty terrible) impersonator. red flags, all over the place, going on 2 years now. and we can't do anything about it. So it seems to me, they can pretty much throw their weight around any way they want, and never have to pay any consequences for it. $$$$ greedy sick :censored:

I think that's the main thing. They know this - that's why they think they can get away with it.
 
Actually if the songs were "Fake" then yes we can sue (Something that the Jackson family could have done but they decide to just talk and talk) them for false advertisement.





I say "(Something that the Jackson family could have done but they decide to just talk and talk)" because the Jackson family is known for suing people for not the biggest reasons but they ignore something that can prove that Sony and the Michael Jackson estate are releasing what some call "Fake" music.
 
Actually if the songs were "Fake" then yes we can sue (Something that the Jackson family could have done but they decide to just talk and talk) them for false advertisement.





I say "(Something that the Jackson family could have done but they decide to just talk and talk)" because the Jackson family is known for suing people for not the biggest reasons but they ignore something that can prove that Sony and the Michael Jackson estate are releasing what some call "Fake" music.

The question was never whether someone can sue. You can always try. But then what? To the detriment of MJ's kids who benefit from the sales?

And anyway, sue who? For what? With what solid proof?

People, your constant argument of suing sounds like a religion there. It's not because someone is not sued that he/she is innocent and it's not because someone is sued that he/she is guilty.


However, believers chose to believe the songs are genuine based on theoretical assumption that it is MJ. Yes, there are snippets of MJ on those songs and that's why you hear MJ, but those snippets are copy-pasted from previous tracks. They were never recorded with Eddie in his studio as he claims, i.e. that MJ was ready and that they worked hard and that MJ would absolutely release those tracks and that he did it for his fans. That's just B.S.
 
The question was never whether someone can sue. You can always try. But then what? To the detriment of MJ's kids who benefit from the sales?

And anyway, sue who? For what? With what solid proof?

People, your constant argument of suing sounds like a religion there. It's not because someone is not sued that he/she is innocent and it's not because someone is sued that he/she is guilty.


However, believers chose to believe the songs are genuine based on theoretical assumption that it is MJ. Yes, there are snippets of MJ on those songs and that's why you hear MJ, but those snippets are copy-pasted from previous tracks. They were never recorded with Eddie in his studio as he claims, i.e. that MJ was ready and that they worked hard and that MJ would absolutely release those tracks and that he did it for his fans. That's just B.S.
Any proof to suppost your theory?

"They were never recorded with Eddie in his studio as he claims, i.e. that MJ was ready and that they worked hard and that MJ would absolutely release those tracks and that he did it for his fans. That's just B.S."
 
Any proof to suppost your theory?

"They were never recorded with Eddie in his studio as he claims, i.e. that MJ was ready and that they worked hard and that MJ would absolutely release those tracks and that he did it for his fans. That's just B.S."

Well, watch what Eddie said on Oprah, then listen to the obvious copy-pastes mainly from Invincible and you'll get the picture how "ready" MJ was and how "hard" "they" worked.

Now, you give me the proof that MJ recorded those songs as such and that he recorded with Eddie in his studio. I'll be waiting.
 
Well, watch what Eddie said on Oprah, then listen to the obvious copy-pastes mainly from Invincible and you'll get the picture how "ready" MJ was and how "hard" "they" worked.

Now, you give me the proof that MJ recorded those songs as such and that he recorded with Eddie in his studio. I'll be waiting.
The more he says, the worse it gets. Horrible. No, I don't have proof, but a good dosis of intuition. (Now all you believers, please don't get offended again, I don't want to weigh every word I say in here on a scale). It's like 1+1=2. Add everything up and when you do, it doesn't make sense. Nothing makes sense in this.

To me........:banghead:
 
The more he says, the worse it gets. Horrible. No, I don't have proof, but a good dosis of intuition. (Now all you believers, please don't get offended again, I don't want to weigh every word I say in here on a scale). It's like 1+1=2. Add everything up and when you do, it doesn't make sense. Nothing makes sense in this.

To me........:banghead:


I just wish MJ's fans were more united and more demanding regarding MJ's releases. Not only the Estate/SONY/Eddie have dared to release controversial tracks, but they created a split up within the MJ fan community resulting in defending their light decisions instead of acting as one community and demanding them real proofs, not just their words! It just makes me sick.
 
I just wish MJ's fans were more united and more demanding regarding MJ's releases. Not only the Estate/SONY/Eddie have dared to release controversial tracks, but they created a split up within the MJ fan community resulting in defending their light decisions instead of acting as one community and demanding them real proofs, not just their words! It just makes me sick.
Normally we can choose if we let something create a split up. We can ask ourselves if it is worth it. There always will be controversies, and every fan wants something different. Different folks, different strokes, but in this case, yes....if you are a Michael Jackson fan, whether you believe it's Michael singing or not, you can't allow this uncertainty to go on and yes, demand real proof.

It isn't that hard to understand that this issue will never be put to rest by 'doubters'. And not for them selves (maybe a little, because we feel bad about the replacement of the 'one in a million' voice/artist that was special to us for a reason. It's an insult to us too), but out of principle and love/respect for Michael Jackson (the artist).
 
Normally we can choose if we let something create a split up. We can ask ourselves if it is worth it. There always will be controversies, and every fan wants something different. Different folks, different strokes, but in this case, yes....if you are a Michael Jackson fan, whether you believe it's Michael singing or not, you can't allow this uncertainty to go on and yes, demand real proof.

It isn't that hard to understand that this issue will never be put to rest by 'doubters'. And not for them selves (maybe a little, because we feel bad about the replacement of the 'one in a million' voice/artist that was special to us for a reason. It's an insult to us too), but out of principle and love/respect for Michael Jackson (the artist).

I agree...As doubters and believers, we may not agree on the authenticity issue, but I think we can all (or should anyway), agree on the fact that these songs don't sound like anything he's ever sounded like before (assuming it's him)......I would be great if all fans would admit this (because, really, even the most firm believer has to admit these vocals are messed up)...So it's just a little sad that we can't unite all together with a bigger voice to get anything done about it...(forget suing anyone, that's futile)....

To this day, I still cringe whenever I think of these songs and the fact that they're part of his discography and labelled as work he was involved in....Poor Michael, he has absolutely NO say about any of this...:(
 
Dattarararattata Dattarararattata Dattarararattata Dattarararattata Dattarararattata Dattarararattata
 
...And speaking of "tricking" people...here is Michael Jackson "tricking" Elizabeth Taylor.


How do we know Michael is "tricking" Elizabeth Taylor...because Michael McDonald of the Doobie Brothers said so! Michael never sang back up on either "Minute By Minute" or "What A Fool Believes."

So if we have video of Michael "tricking" Elizabeth Taylor, the proof, where is the proof of a video of Michael working with Eddie Cascio?
 
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